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INSIGHT
INSIGHT
Aired March 5, 2003 - 17:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JONATHAN MANN, CNN ANCHOR: A billion (AUDIO GAP) pope's diplomacy. John Paul asks Catholics around the world to join his crusade against war. World leaders want the pope to join them.
Hello and welcome.
Stalin once famously ridiculed the pope's impact on war by asking how many divisions does he have. But Stalinism is long gone and the Catholic church, of course, endures.
The pope matters, and lately leaders from the United States, Britain and Iraq are acting like he matters a lot. It has been decades since other world leaders have courted a pope so assiduously.
On our program on this Ash Wednesday, all roads lead to Rome.
(NEWSBREAK)
George Bush reads the Bible almost every day. He begins his cabinet meetings with prayer. And when an American religious leader told the president that he is God's man for this hour, Mr. Bush said he accepted the responsibility.
The United States has a very religious president heading to war. The Roman Catholic church has a very political pope working to prevent it. And the pope is getting the kind of attention a president would expect.
Jim Bittermann begins our coverage.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JIM BITTERMANN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In the heart of Rome, Catholic faithful gathered for Ash Wednesday and to follow a request from Pope John Paul II.
This day marking the beginning of the Easter season is always one of fasting and prayer, but this year the pope asked they be directed in avoiding war in Iraq. In the Catholic way of fasting, the noon meal was kept simple and without meat.
"People here are not dreamers," one said. "They put peace in their priorities."
The pope has asked everyone, all of his 1 billion fellow Catholics, to lend him a hand preventing war in Iraq. Just as the possible conflict has come to dominate world politics, so too has the pope become fixated on making sure it doesn't happen.
MARCO POLITI, "LA REPUBLICA": He has quickly transformed this affair into the biggest battle after his campaign for the freedom of Poland and the freedom of solidarity. So this has become, for him, a great war against a war.
BITTERMANN: John Paul's personal involvement has included dispatching one of his top trouble-shooters to meet with Saddam Hussein and his former ambassador to the United States to meet with President George Bush. In part the message was the same to both: to work through the United Nations.
The pope's foreign minister insists that the Vatican is deeply concerned about weapons of mass destruction not just in Iraq but everywhere, yet he said nothing justifies Washington's argument for deposing Iraq's government.
JEAN-LOUIS TALIBAN, VATICAN SECY. FOR FOREIGN RELATIONS (through translator): No international law authorizes one or more states unilaterally, and I stress unilaterally, to use force to overthrow a regime or a form of government because it might own weapons of mass destruction. Everything must be decided within the United Nations.
BITTERMANN: Still, some Catholics were not comfortable seeing things like this, the kind of reception Saddam Hussein's right-hand-man Tariq Aziz got both at the Vatican and at the Tomb of St. Francis of Assisi. They say the Vatican has been too involved in global politics and although Aziz is a Christian, the regime he represents is morally indefensible.
Catholics who disagree with the pope on Iraq essentially say it's not his affair.
MICHAEL NOVAK, CATHOLIC THEOLOGIAN: His role is very different from that of a president or prime minister of a country. They have a different constitutional vocation, and a different set of moral obligations.
BITTERMANN: Nonetheless, the chance to bask in the pope's moral authority seems to be exactly what has drawn many political leaders here as the Iraq crisis unfolded. A steady procession of leaders on both sides of the issue have visited the frail 82-year-old in his Vatican apartment to be seen with him as much as to see him.
FATHER JOSE DE VERA, SOCIETY OF JESUS: They want to show their motivation, that they are not happy warriors, that they are going into an adventure. And they want to justify their position.
BITTERMANN: It's all part of what the American ambassador here calls the pope's moral megaphone. He organized seminars and meetings over the last two months to advance the administration's justification for war. Some observers said it looked like a brazen attempt to lobby the earthly head of the Catholic church.
It did not work.
DE VERA: A just war has to be, I think, as the pope says, the very last step, if there is no other way of defending a country or responding to an attack. I think a preventive war does not make sense, really, in this stage.
BITTERMANN (on camera): In a world often concentrated on money and prestige, there's perhaps no one other than the pope who, at the same time, remains fixed solely on moral issues and has a global media platform from which to express his views.
It's not the same kind of power as guns and tanks, but its power nonetheless.
(voice-over): Power John Paul used to great affect fighting communism in his homeland. And other popes, like John XXIII, have used to help keep the peace, as he did during the Cuban Missile Crisis.
Much of John Paul's pontificate has been focused on building bridges between the Christian and Arab worlds. And perhaps one reason why the pope has been so passionately engaged in his war against war, because he fears it will destroy exactly what he's been working for, especially if war comes without world agreement.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In this situation, the United States would attack and invade and occupy Iraq. The pope has already said, and the Vatican is very clear on that, that it would be absolutely not only unjustified but also illegal.
BITTERMANN: As Ash Wednesday was drawing to a close, John Paul traveled outside the Vatican to a small church on Rome's Avantine (ph) Hill.
"Fasting and prayer are not enough," he told the crowed. "You must also work for justice."
And in what observers called a clear reference to Iraq, he added, "Great and hopeful changes do not come from the outside, but from conversion within."
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MANN: CNN's Jim Bittermann reporting.
We take a break now. When we come back, more on why John Paul is suddenly so sought after.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MANN: The pope's call for prayer united millions of non-Catholics as well Wednesday. While protesters marched in Rome, the general senate of the Anglican church called on its 70 million followers worldwide to observe the day, and in Geneva, the World Council of Churches also urged the faithful to pray for peace.
Welcome back.
A lot of people oppose war in Iraq. A lot of people pray for peace for reasons that have nothing to do with John Paul II. Still, the list is impressive. The leaders of Italy, Spain, England, the United States and the United Kingdom all paying exceptional attention to the pontiff and his opinions.
Is it real?
Joining us now is Jim Bittermann, in Rome.
Jim, we are used to seeing photo ops all the time. Whenever the world leaders go to Rome, they make the rounds and do the Vatican as well. Is this the same, or somehow different?
BITTERMANN: Well, I think it is somehow different. I think this time around the pope has gotten definitely involved in a very intense way in an international affair.
Now, it should be said, as Marco Politi pointed out in my package, you know, the pope has before gotten himself involved in world politics. During his years in the early 80's, when he was fighting Communism he was heavily engaged in the struggled to bring freedom to the Eastern European countries. But the pope had a vested interest there too -- too vested an interest, perhaps. His personal interest, because he grew up under Communism, and the church's interest because religious freedom was restricted in Eastern Europe, and that was something the church was interested in ending.
This time around, it should be said the pope has some interests as well. He spent a lot of his pontificate trying to build bridges to the East, to the Arab world, to the Islamic world, and he wouldn't like to see that end through some uncertainty that comes about at the end of the Iraq War.
The other thing is that there are several hundred thousand Christians in Iraq who could in fact be directly involved in a war, or perhaps after a war, if some kind of fundamentalist government were to come into power at some point down the line, they may not be as open to religious freedom as the present regime is -- John.
MANN: Let me be cynical and ask you if anyone in the Vatican shares my cynicism. Is the pope being used? Is he simply a prop for world leaders who want to look like they are taking a moral approach to what is, after all, a very complex and controversial war?
BITTERMANN: This question comes up a lot, actually, because the pope has traveled to several parts of the world where there are dictators -- Pinochet in Argentina, Castro in Cuba, and other parts of the world. His answer, and the answer of those around him, has always been the same, and that is, the door is open to everybody, and there is no way that you have a dialogue unless you're ready to listen to both sides.
And so his door is open, and so a lot of people do come through the office and in fact use his office, or at least those visuals that we see of people meeting with the pope, they use those for their own political benefit -- John.
MANN: Jim Bittermann, in Rome, thanks very much.
And still the question remains, why do so many world leaders pay so much attention to the pope at a time like this.
Well, we're going to ask John Allen. He's a frequent analyst on our air on things papal, Catholic and Vatican. He is also the Vatican correspondent for the "National Catholic Reporter," though he joins us on this day from here inside the United States.
Thanks so much for talking with us. Let me ask you, why, really, would the pope matter at a time like this? Is he just a prop?
JOHN ALLEN, "NATIONAL CATHOLIC REPORTER": Well, whether he's a prop or not depends on your point of view, Jonathan.
But what's clear is that the pope is the most visible religious leader on the world stage, period. He is in a way a symbol of the conscience of humanity, and when the conscience of humanity comes knocking, no political leader can afford to ignore it. That's why, since this crisis began, you have seen this steady stream of VIP's in and out of Rome, beginning with Joschka Fischer, Tariq Aziz, Jose Maria Aznar, Tony Blair, Mohammad Al-Reza Khatami, the vice president of the Iranian parliament.
And we've seen the pope's emissary to Baghdad, Cardinal (UNINTELLIGIBLE) get a red carpet treatment from Saddam Hussein and now (UNINTELLIGIBLE) shaking hands with George Bush.
You know, the point is that the pope, in this sense, represents humanities moral sense and every politician, of course, wants to be seen to be on the good side of morality.
MANN: In a more specific sense, though, what exactly is his position? Is he opposed to war against Iraq under any circumstances? Would he be for it if the United Nations authorized it?
ALLEN: Well, the pope is not a pacifist and the Catholic church is not a pacifist. I mean, their position is that a state has the right to defend itself against aggression, and so if Iraq were to attack someone, then that state, up to and including the United States, would have the right to retaliate.
However, what they are against is this doctrine of a so-called preventive war. That is, that it is somehow morally licit to start a war in order to achieve some alleged moral end. And so in this case, it is not the idea of war, but it is the kind of war that is being proposed that they are against.
And beyond that, I think, as Jim said in your Q&A with him a moment ago, you have to bear in mind that Vatican diplomacy always unfolds on two levels. There's the level of the sort of voice of conscience. There's also the level of protecting the institutional assets of the Catholic church in the way that every state does in its diplomatic activity.
And in this case, there are Christians, there are Christian parishes, schools, hospitals, universities, all over the Islamic world, and there is tremendous fear in the Vatican that this conflict could make all of those things targets.
MANN: Let me ask you to look back a bit in history, because the pope's position looks different, if you recall, and correct me if I'm wrong, but he opposed the war that pushed Iraq out of Kuwait after the 1990 - 91 invasion, that he has opposed most of the sanctions that the United Nations Security Council has voted.
I am curious if in fact the pope isn't really a little bit isolated when you look at history, when you look at the decisions that all of the Western powers acting in concert have made together.
ALLEN: Well, you know, whether he's isolated or not depends, once again, on the point of view.
I mean, certainly, if you look at the polling on this war and especially outside of the United States, what you find is that substantial majorities all over the world are, if you believe the polls, opposed to this war. And, in that sense, perhaps it isn't the pope who is isolated. Perhaps it's President Bush and the pro-war line coming out of the White House.
But, you know, certainly, if you roll the clock back to 1991 and the first Gulf War which, you're right, the pope did oppose, compare it to the NATO incursion in Kosovo, which the pope and the Vatican supported, I think there you'll see that relevant difference we were talking about a moment ago.
In '91, the conflict had in a sense stabilized, and the Vatican took the position that diplomatic initiatives could be sufficient to restore justice. In Kosovo, you have a civilian population that was being brutalized. You had a conflict in act, and the only thing that would stop it was the application of force. And I think that's the relevant difference.
If in this case Iraq was in this moment, right now, involved in a conflict against an innocent civilian population, my suspicion would be the pope would support the use of force.
(CROSSTALK)
MANN: Well, let me just jump in and tell you what the president of the United States would say in this context -- and forgive me for speaking for him. He would say there is a civilian population that's being brutalized. It's the population of Iraq.
ALLEN: Yes, and that of course is one of the interesting things, Jonathan, at the rhetorical level, a shift we've seen in recent weeks.
As you know, originally the argument coming from the Western coalition, that is Bush and Blair, on behalf of this conflict, was essentially a security argument. That is, that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction, they could get in the hands of terrorists. That posed a security threat to the West and, above all, to the United States.
What's happened in recent weeks, and I think it's a response to the moral criticism that's been coming from the pope and other religious leaders, is that the argument has shifted to now we have a humanitarian imperative to come to the rescue of this oppressed and brutalized Iraqi population.
Now, I think that very few people would dispute the claim that this is a regime that does not have a very good human rights record. Most Iraqi Christians that I've interviewed off the record say quite honestly they would be delighted to see Saddam Hussein go.
The problem is, to be replaced with what? And at what cost? And that comes down to a prudential judgment. Is pressing for a regime change here worth the cost in human blood, worth the cost in inflaming Christian- Islamic relations that it would take? And the pope and the Vatican's prudential judgment, which other people would disagree with, is that it's not worth the cost.
MANN: Let me ask you about -- not about what's morally right and morally wrong, but actually about the business of diplomacy when the Vatican is involved.
In other conversations between the United States, for example, and Turkey, there's horse-trading. The United States wants certain things, and it will give certain things in return, whether it's aid or trade or some kind of political consideration.
When the Vatican sends its envoys to the White House, when it sends them to Baghdad, or when it receives heads of state from elsewhere, what do they talk about? What kinds of conversations are going on? Does anyone know?
ALLEN: Well, Jonathan, this is one of the interesting things about Vatican diplomacy. This is the oldest diplomatic core in the world. The Vatican is a 108-acre city-state in the heart of Rome. It has no standing army and no national economy to speak of. So there isn't that kind of, you know, horse-trading that goes on when a Vatican diplomat comes calling, which is one of the reasons that they are received by all sides in conflicts, because it's clear they're not seeking commercial or territorial advantage.
What do they talk about? Again, think about those two levels I mentioned. There is the level of which they are trying to represent the voice of conscience, and so they're making an argument on behalf of the common good -- what they see as the good of the entire human family.
But beyond that, they are also talking about the very specific needs and fears of the Christians, the Catholics, that are on the ground in these places.
So quite often, when Bush, for example, in the past, has met with the pope and with Vatican diplomats, in addition to the welfare of the human family, they've talked about Christians in China and they've talked about Christians in Palestine, and what can the Bush administration do to try to come to the aid of those beleaguered Christian populations.
So the Vatican almost has one eye on the big picture, and one eye on its own folks on the ground, and what they can do to come to their aid.
MANN: John Allen, of the "National Catholic Reporter," thanks for talking with us.
ALLEN: Jonathan, it's a pleasure.
MANN: We take another break. When we come back, the other side of the debate -- the religious case for a war.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MANN: President Bush has won little support for a unilateral attack on Iraq among church leaders in Europe, but he has re-ignited a debate, one that dates back to the 5th century.
Religious scholars disagree about exactly what can be considered a just war in the eyes of the church.
Welcome back.
Within the Judeo-Christian tradition, the doctrine of just war says a war has to be a last resort in response to unjust aggression. It's success has to be probable and civilians have to be protected.
Is that the case in Iraq?
Joining us now from Washington is Robert Royal, president of the Faith and Reason Institute, a D.C.-based think tank focusing on religion and public affairs.
Thanks so much for being with us.
Is Iraq a just war, if war comes?
ROBERT ROYAL, FAITH AND REASON INSTITUTE: Well, of course, that's the $1 million question right now, isn't it?
I agree with John Allen entirely and I think we ought to emphasize just again that this pope is not a pacifist, as much as many people would like to portray him as a pacifist, or he could be misread in that way, I suppose.
I think that what's going on here is that there are two currents that are starting to flow into one another and they clash. The Vatican and European opinion more generally has been trying to limit the occasions on which you can go to war almost to those very few cases where an aggression is actually going on, and I think that's one of the reason that, as John Allen rightly said, that the pope actually opposed the attempt to push Iraq out of Kuwait.
The case had already been settled, and then diplomacy was supposed to take over.
So there's this current that is trying to set very high the bar of last resort.
Now, conflicting with that, I think, is something that at some point the Vatican and other just war theorists are going to have to deal with, and that is that given these weapons of mass destruction, given the tremendous power for damage, for mayhem, that they can perpetrate, we don't have the luxury of waiting as you did, say, in the Middle Ages, the Renaissance, to see those weapons, those troops being massed, and saying yes, that presents a threat that we can no longer look away from.
In the early 1980's, for example, the Israelis bombed the Osiraq nuclear power plant in Iraq, as many people now know. At the time, I thought it was way outside the borders of just war theory. But in retrospect, what would our situation be like today if the Iraqis had had for the past 20 years a nuclear program?
It's clear that the just war theory is going to have to evolve just in the light of the threat that's presented by these weapons.
MANN: Well, it's not just a theoretical question, because a lot of people say they can imagine a just war against Iraq, only this isn't is. They say the president is being hurried by the changing weather in the Middle East, he's being hurried by the fear that whatever coalition he's able to build will eventually crack under the passage of time. He's being hurried by a lot of factors which have nothing to do with the rightness of his cause and much simply to do with the calendar.
And so the question becomes not whether this is a just war but whether this is the only convenient war he can fight until such time that the just war becomes more obvious.
ROYAL: Well, I don't agree with that at all.
We -- look, Saddam Hussein has for the past 12 years had a chance to participate in a diplomatic process, inspections, et cetera, that would have disarmed him and that would have left basically in a state that would not have made him a threat to anyone.
I think that the oppose case actually has to be made, that the longer that he remains in power with these weapons, the more potentially disastrous dealing with him may become.
Let's not forget that in 1998, when the inspection regime ended, it was President Clinton who said that if something is not done about Saddam Hussein, who possesses these terrible weapons, he will use them someday.
So it's a calculation, a prudential judgment that has to be made, and I think that the place where that judgment is best made -- I respect this pope tremendously. I think one of the reasons why he is listened to so much by people around the world is he has earned the right to be the moral voice of civilization in the early part of the 21st century.
But I think that we have gotten to the point where if we expect that somehow this can be played out further and further, we may actually find ourselves facing a threat, as we now see has emerged in North Korea, that could be far worse to deal with down the line.
MANN: I understand what you're saying. I think the political scientists will understand what you're saying. Let me ask you if religious terms even enter the equation in this context -- if it's right, if it's appropriate, if it's moral. Is there any appeal to faith in this conversation that needs to be made, that can be made? Or is this just not a question that God speaks to?
ROYAL: Well, there are differing opinions about that, naturally.
Just war theory, I think, does not rely on faith, although it clearly has been developed in its most elaborate form in Christian circles in the West.
There are those who would say that Christianity really requires us to be peacemakers and to be Pacifists. I disagree with that, although I respect a principled pacifism that attempts to deal with a situation like this.
But the just war theory is essentially a philosophical theory that actually begins before Christianity, in Roman stoicism and some other sources, so I'm not exactly sure that there's an immense amount of religious -- purely religious commentary, on a situation like this.
MANN: Robert Royal, of the Faith and Reason Institute, thanks so much for talking with us.
ROYAL: My pleasure.
MANN: That's INSIGHT for this day. I'm Jonathan Mann. The news continues.
END
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