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Pope Sends Envoy to Meet Bush

Aired March 05, 2003 - 11:04   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


LEON HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: Let's go now and get more on this diplomatic stand taken by German, France, and Russia today. We turn now to our senior European political correspondent, Robin Oakley, who is standing by now live in London -- Robin, good morning.
ROBIN OAKLEY, CNN SENIOR EUROPEAN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Leon. And when Igor Ivanov, the Russian foreign minister, was earlier in the day in London with Tony Blair for talks, Tony Blair went off to the House of Commons afterwards and told MPs that he was still confident in getting that crucial second U.N. Security Council resolution, a resolution he desperately needs for political cover at home with a big rebellion going on among his own Labour MPs over the idea of an attack on Iraq.

But when it came to the meeting in Paris, Igor Ivanov lined up with Dominique de Villepin, the French foreign minister, and with Joschka Fischer, the German foreign minister. The three of them determined that their nations are not going to be picked off individually, and pulled on side with the U.S. and the U.K. in terms of taking action against Saddam Hussein. And there, Mr. Ivanov was clearly hopeful that they could avoid having a second U.N. Security Council resolution appear at all.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

IGOR IVANOV, RUSSIAN FOREIGN MINISTER (through translator): If a new resolution is not necessary, then there is no veto is necessary. You can't take -- use the right of veto against nothing. We don't think there is any necessity for a new resolution. Naturally, we realize the necessity of voting, and in this joint declaration that we have in our hands, we have recognized that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

OAKLEY: So the three countries are very much sticking together, still insisting that they will not allow any U.N. resolution to progress which authorizes the use of war. And for President Bush and for Tony Blair looking for that second resolution, today was bad news also in that Mr. Ivanov said that China was backing the attitude taken by the three who met in Paris -- Leon.

HARRIS: Very interesting. Robin, do we know what happened there with the Russians, because President Putin has really been playing it rather close to the vest, and been kind of keeping his -- at least, public comments rather neutral on the whole matter. Do we know what happened to change the stance by the Russians? OAKLEY: I don't think they have changed their stance yet, Leon. I think there is a huge diplomatic game going on here, and both Igor Ivanov and Dominique de Villepin were very, very careful when constantly pressed at their press conference in Paris to say -- did the words they were using mean that their nations were going to use the veto that they hold in the U.N. Security Council. They never actually used the "veto" word. They're still leaving that open. There is still a great diplomatic game in play here. Clearly still Russia might hope for some other inducement from the United States to come on board, but the three of them, for the moment, are sheltering together, determined that their unity will not crack -- Leon.

HARRIS: Very interesting. So this diplomatic game of chicken continues. Robin Oakley in London, appreciate that report. Take care -- Daryn, over to you.

DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: We go now to Pope John Paul II. He has called on the faithful of all religions to pray for peace today.

For more on the pope's order against war, and his envoys meeting today with President Bush, we're going to turn to our Vatican analyst, Delia Gallagher. She joins us from Rome -- Delia, good to have you with us once again.

DELIA GALLAGHER, CNN VATICAN ANALYST: Hi, Daryn.

KAGAN: What can you tell us about the cardinal that is being sent to Washington, D.C. to meet with President Bush today?

GALLAGHER: Well, Daryn, I don't think it's any secret what Cardinal Pio Laghi will be saying to the president today. Of course, he is an old friend of the Bush family, and he will be giving the pope's message, one which the pope has been very vocal about in the past few weeks, that war is not inevitable. He will be encouraging the Bush administration to seek all peaceful means to resolve this crisis without going to war.

KAGAN: The pope also sent an envoy to Baghdad in recent weeks. What can you tell us about that meeting?

GALLAGHER: Well, that's right. He sent a Cardinal Etchegaray last week to Baghdad to meet with Saddam Hussein, and as the cardinal himself said to me, "Diplomacy is made up of small steps," so nobody expects here at the Vatican that one meeting with either President Bush or Saddam Hussein is necessarily going to change the course of events.

However, the Vatican feels this war has two aspects. One is a sort of political strategic aspect, the other is a moral aspect, and on the moral aspect, on the justifications for going to war, and the moral consequences of a war, the Vatican feels that they have something to say. So there has been a lot of diplomatic activity here at the Vatican. We have the visit of Tony Blair, we had Tariq Aziz come, and the pope himself has been very, very vocal about the fact, as you said today, that we all need to work to construct this peace -- Daryn. KAGAN: And getting back to this meeting today between President Bush and Cardinal Pio Laghi, this is taking place, of course, on Ash Wednesday, and Delia, I know you can't see what we're showing our viewers here in the U.S., but while we see you on one side of the screen, we're seeing the mass taking place in honor of Ash Wednesday today. The significance of this day, please.

GALLAGHER: Well, Ash Wednesday, of course, is the beginning of Lent. For Catholics, Lent being the period leading up to Easter, and it's traditionally a time of penance, of fasting, of abstinence, and especially today on Ash Wednesday, Catholics are called traditionally to fast, that is to abstain from food and drink, but the pope has requested that this be a day not only for Catholics, but for everybody else to join in this fast in a particular way for peace, and the significance of that, of course, is that you deny yourself food and drink, suffer in some way to participate in the suffering of those around the world -- Daryn.

KAGAN: And how unusual is it for this pope to make that call not just to the Catholics all around the world, but to people of all religions to fast and to make that sacrifice?

GALLAGHER: Well, it's fairly unusual, of course, but on the other hand, the pope represents a certain moral authority, and in this day and age, he does call -- tend to call quite a bit on other religions. The Islam religion in particular, which also participates in a fast during their holy month of Ramadan, so it's not so unusual that he might call on other religions, but he calls on all people usually with these messages of peace, because, of course, peace doesn't pertain itself only to one religion -- Daryn.

KAGAN: And then just finally, Delia, is there any indication of the next step that the pope might take in trying to prevent a war that he desperately does not believe in?

GALLAGHER: Well, I think that sending Pio Laghi is really the culmination of the pope's efforts. He's already talked to Saddam Hussein through his papal envoy, and now he's talking to George Bush, and aside from continued calls for peace, which we will see him surely do in the coming days, I think we've seen today the culmination of the Vatican's efforts for peace.

KAGAN: Delia Gallagher joining us from Rome. As always, thank you for your insight into the workings of the Vatican. Appreciate it.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com






Aired March 5, 2003 - 11:04   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LEON HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: Let's go now and get more on this diplomatic stand taken by German, France, and Russia today. We turn now to our senior European political correspondent, Robin Oakley, who is standing by now live in London -- Robin, good morning.
ROBIN OAKLEY, CNN SENIOR EUROPEAN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Leon. And when Igor Ivanov, the Russian foreign minister, was earlier in the day in London with Tony Blair for talks, Tony Blair went off to the House of Commons afterwards and told MPs that he was still confident in getting that crucial second U.N. Security Council resolution, a resolution he desperately needs for political cover at home with a big rebellion going on among his own Labour MPs over the idea of an attack on Iraq.

But when it came to the meeting in Paris, Igor Ivanov lined up with Dominique de Villepin, the French foreign minister, and with Joschka Fischer, the German foreign minister. The three of them determined that their nations are not going to be picked off individually, and pulled on side with the U.S. and the U.K. in terms of taking action against Saddam Hussein. And there, Mr. Ivanov was clearly hopeful that they could avoid having a second U.N. Security Council resolution appear at all.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

IGOR IVANOV, RUSSIAN FOREIGN MINISTER (through translator): If a new resolution is not necessary, then there is no veto is necessary. You can't take -- use the right of veto against nothing. We don't think there is any necessity for a new resolution. Naturally, we realize the necessity of voting, and in this joint declaration that we have in our hands, we have recognized that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

OAKLEY: So the three countries are very much sticking together, still insisting that they will not allow any U.N. resolution to progress which authorizes the use of war. And for President Bush and for Tony Blair looking for that second resolution, today was bad news also in that Mr. Ivanov said that China was backing the attitude taken by the three who met in Paris -- Leon.

HARRIS: Very interesting. Robin, do we know what happened there with the Russians, because President Putin has really been playing it rather close to the vest, and been kind of keeping his -- at least, public comments rather neutral on the whole matter. Do we know what happened to change the stance by the Russians? OAKLEY: I don't think they have changed their stance yet, Leon. I think there is a huge diplomatic game going on here, and both Igor Ivanov and Dominique de Villepin were very, very careful when constantly pressed at their press conference in Paris to say -- did the words they were using mean that their nations were going to use the veto that they hold in the U.N. Security Council. They never actually used the "veto" word. They're still leaving that open. There is still a great diplomatic game in play here. Clearly still Russia might hope for some other inducement from the United States to come on board, but the three of them, for the moment, are sheltering together, determined that their unity will not crack -- Leon.

HARRIS: Very interesting. So this diplomatic game of chicken continues. Robin Oakley in London, appreciate that report. Take care -- Daryn, over to you.

DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: We go now to Pope John Paul II. He has called on the faithful of all religions to pray for peace today.

For more on the pope's order against war, and his envoys meeting today with President Bush, we're going to turn to our Vatican analyst, Delia Gallagher. She joins us from Rome -- Delia, good to have you with us once again.

DELIA GALLAGHER, CNN VATICAN ANALYST: Hi, Daryn.

KAGAN: What can you tell us about the cardinal that is being sent to Washington, D.C. to meet with President Bush today?

GALLAGHER: Well, Daryn, I don't think it's any secret what Cardinal Pio Laghi will be saying to the president today. Of course, he is an old friend of the Bush family, and he will be giving the pope's message, one which the pope has been very vocal about in the past few weeks, that war is not inevitable. He will be encouraging the Bush administration to seek all peaceful means to resolve this crisis without going to war.

KAGAN: The pope also sent an envoy to Baghdad in recent weeks. What can you tell us about that meeting?

GALLAGHER: Well, that's right. He sent a Cardinal Etchegaray last week to Baghdad to meet with Saddam Hussein, and as the cardinal himself said to me, "Diplomacy is made up of small steps," so nobody expects here at the Vatican that one meeting with either President Bush or Saddam Hussein is necessarily going to change the course of events.

However, the Vatican feels this war has two aspects. One is a sort of political strategic aspect, the other is a moral aspect, and on the moral aspect, on the justifications for going to war, and the moral consequences of a war, the Vatican feels that they have something to say. So there has been a lot of diplomatic activity here at the Vatican. We have the visit of Tony Blair, we had Tariq Aziz come, and the pope himself has been very, very vocal about the fact, as you said today, that we all need to work to construct this peace -- Daryn. KAGAN: And getting back to this meeting today between President Bush and Cardinal Pio Laghi, this is taking place, of course, on Ash Wednesday, and Delia, I know you can't see what we're showing our viewers here in the U.S., but while we see you on one side of the screen, we're seeing the mass taking place in honor of Ash Wednesday today. The significance of this day, please.

GALLAGHER: Well, Ash Wednesday, of course, is the beginning of Lent. For Catholics, Lent being the period leading up to Easter, and it's traditionally a time of penance, of fasting, of abstinence, and especially today on Ash Wednesday, Catholics are called traditionally to fast, that is to abstain from food and drink, but the pope has requested that this be a day not only for Catholics, but for everybody else to join in this fast in a particular way for peace, and the significance of that, of course, is that you deny yourself food and drink, suffer in some way to participate in the suffering of those around the world -- Daryn.

KAGAN: And how unusual is it for this pope to make that call not just to the Catholics all around the world, but to people of all religions to fast and to make that sacrifice?

GALLAGHER: Well, it's fairly unusual, of course, but on the other hand, the pope represents a certain moral authority, and in this day and age, he does call -- tend to call quite a bit on other religions. The Islam religion in particular, which also participates in a fast during their holy month of Ramadan, so it's not so unusual that he might call on other religions, but he calls on all people usually with these messages of peace, because, of course, peace doesn't pertain itself only to one religion -- Daryn.

KAGAN: And then just finally, Delia, is there any indication of the next step that the pope might take in trying to prevent a war that he desperately does not believe in?

GALLAGHER: Well, I think that sending Pio Laghi is really the culmination of the pope's efforts. He's already talked to Saddam Hussein through his papal envoy, and now he's talking to George Bush, and aside from continued calls for peace, which we will see him surely do in the coming days, I think we've seen today the culmination of the Vatican's efforts for peace.

KAGAN: Delia Gallagher joining us from Rome. As always, thank you for your insight into the workings of the Vatican. Appreciate it.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com