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CNN LOU DOBBS MONEYLINE
Blix Has Both Praise, Criticism for Iraq; Bush Meets with General Franks, Papal Envoy; Terrorists Fans Out Over Globe
Aired March 5, 2003 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, HOST: Coming up, the United States continues to build up its forces in the Persian Gulf. And this country's top military commanders are ready to fight.
Tonight, a man of peace joins us to tell us why war may be necessary in Iraq. He's the author of more than 40 books, Nobel Peace Prize winner. Elie Wiesel is our guest.
The capture this week of top al Qaeda operative, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, a major victor for the United States in the war against radical Islamist terrorists. Tonight, we'll show you where U.S. forces are continuing that fight against radical Islamists.
Also joining me tonight, terrorism expert Daniel Benjamin, the author of "The Age of Sacred Terror." He'll tell us why a war with Iraq might increase the popularity of al Qaeda in the Muslim world and unleash more terrorist attacks against the United States.
It is now easier than ever for someone to steal your identity on the Internet. We'll have a special report on just how vulnerable you are. And we'll tell you what you can do to protect yourself and your family.
They say justice is blind, but sometimes it's also deaf and pretty dumb. Tonight we'll tell you the story of a criminal who will spend more time in jail for stealing a videotape than another criminal who helped the September 11 terrorists to attack this country.
And on Wall Street today, stock prices ended higher. Christine Romans will have the market for us.
It is now 6 p.m. eastern, 3 p.m. in the west.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS MONEYLINE for Wednesday, March 5. Here now, Loud Dobbs.
DOBBS: Good evening.
Tonight, the United States is ready to go to war with or without another resolution from the United Nations.
Secretary of State Colin Powell says Saddam Hussein is trying to divide the international community and he says that effort must fail. But there is, indeed, division.
France, Germany and Russia oppose another resolution that would authorize force against Iraq. Another country praised France, Germany and Russia; one Iraqi official says that joint declaration shows the United States is isolated and moving against world opinion.
At the United Nations today, another day of focus on Hans Blix, talk of missile destruction, timetables, and yes, disarmament.
We begin our coverage tonight with Richard Roth at the United Nations.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
RICHARD ROTH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: In a preview of his Friday briefing to the Security Council, chief weapons inspector Hans Blix bounced from praise to criticism on Iraq's level of cooperation.
On the recent Iraqi destruction of Al Samoud missiles...
HANX BLIX, U.N. CHIEF WEAPONS INSPECTOR: I think one could also characterize those efforts as very fine disarmament.
ROTH: But Blix is not ready to say that Iraq has disclosed where all biological weapons are.
BLIX: It doesn't mean that we could say that all biological weapons are accounted for, no. We are not quite there.
ROTH: The chief inspector declined to answer when pressed for a yes or no whether Iraq has fully cooperated, as written in the unanimously passed Security Council resolution which threatens Baghdad with serious consequences.
Blix's U.N. work contract extended until the end of June. With war a distinct possibility, Blix again said it was too soon to close the door on inspections but he declined to ask for four months to continue those inspections.
The Swedish diplomat and attorney said it's a pity Iraq seems to cooperate only under threat of political or military action.
BLIX: There is a great deal more of cooperation now, and the threats certainly brought it there. I hope it's not too late.
ROTH: Veto-packing Security Council members want to make sure it's not too late.
Foreign ministers from Russia, France and Germany went on the diplomatic offensive.
DOMINIQUE DE VILLEPIN, FRENCH FOREIGN MINISTER (through translator): We will not accept a draft resolution which would authorize the use of force. Russia and France, as permanent members of the Security Council, will take all their responsibilities in this respect.
ROTH: France and Russia did not specifically vow to veto. They hope the threat will prompt the U.S. to either withdraw the resolution or adjust the language, giving the inspectors and Saddam Hussein more time.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
Blix also indicated he may use his Friday Security Council appearance to lay out some 29 outstanding issues between the weapons inspectors and Iraq. And that's important, because it may affect the timetable as to how much time Iraq is, indeed, given -- Lou.
DOBBS: Richard, thank you. Richard Roth, our senior U.N. correspondent.
At the White House today, talk of war and talk of peace.
President Bush met with General Tommy Franks, the man who would lead U.S. forces in a war against Iraq. General Franks said his troops are ready and that they are just waiting for their orders to attack, if the president so decides.
The president also met with a peace envoy from Pope John Paul II today. President Bush told him there is a moral justification for the removal of Saddam Hussein from power.
Chris Burns has more on the story from the White House -- Chris.
CHRIS BURNS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, the conversations that we've been hearing here at the White House on the U.N. resolution is very interesting. What we've heard from Ari Fleischer suggesting that there could be as in his words some -- that the resolution itself has been proposed to the U.N. is not set in stone. There could be a little bit of give and take.
You've been hearing about how the Europeans and the Russians have been pushing, perhaps, some kind of a time line or a deadline. So perhaps some signals of a bit give and take there.
Ari Fleischer also, however, saying that France and Russia have in the past, in the history, been at odds with the United States, but they didn't wield their veto in the end.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ARI FLEISCHER, WHITE HOUSE SPOKESMAN: There's a history of France and Russia not seeing this eye to eye with the United States. You're seeing that continue to varying degrees. I urge you not to leap to the conclusion that this is a determinant matter that a veto will follow.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNS: Now, will they veto or not? That is a good question.
Also, of course, the lobbying going on from the White House. Not a big schedule tomorrow. Not a public schedule. Obviously, a lot of phone calls.
The U.S. still needs nine votes on that 15-member Security Council. They only have four so far.
The National Security Council meeting with the president today, with Tommy Franks, very telling because he would be leading -- the general would be leading the -- any war effort against Iraq. So very interesting they are meeting once again today.
And also, the meeting with the papal envoy, Pio Laghi, the cardinal, who brought a letter from the pope which -- who has been arguing that a war is not morally justified.
President Bush, according to a senior administration official, trying to make the argument that war could be justified in this case, trying to disarm Hussein, that the world is a much better place with Saddam Hussein.
In any case, the two are friends, the cardinal and the president. And so, they said they had a good discussion, according, at least, to the White House -- Lou.
DOBBS: Chris, thank you very much. Chris Burns from the White House.
As Chris Burns just reported General Tommy Franks today attended what could very well be his last White House meeting before any military action taken against Iraq.
Senior Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre reports now on a possible time table for war.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JAMIE McINTYRE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In what might be his last White House meeting before going to war, U.S. central commander General Tommy Franks briefed President Bush and his national security team on plans for war without Turkey, which sources say has all been written out of the plan.
GEN. TOMMY FRANKS, CENTRAL COMMAND: If the president of the United States decides to undertake action, we are in a position to provide a military option.
McINTYRE: But Pentagon sources say the U.S. still needs a few more days to get the rest of the 101st Airborne and its equipment in place in Kuwait.
Forces from the 101st and the 82nd Airborne will secure northern Iraq from the south using assault helicopters and paratroops.
And the U.S. needs to decide whether to move two aircraft carriers out of the eastern Mediterranean to the Red Sea so they can send planes over Saudi Arabia if Turkey doesn't grant over flight rights.
But soon, sources say, the U.S. will issue a final public warning. DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: If we arrive at that point, we'll have announcements that will make clear what our thoughts are.
McINTYRE: That will include a warning to western journalists that it will be a lot more dangerous to report from Baghdad than it was during the 1991 Gulf War. That is, if they can report.
Pentagon sources confirm the U.S. military plan for shock and awe includes use of weapons designed to blind the Iraqi high command by disabling power supplies and shutting down communications.
Sources say the so-called e-bomb, an electromagnetic pulse weapon, designed to be carried by a Tomahawk missile, is still under development and not ready for war. But that other less exotic weapons will be used.
FRANKS: One example would be offensive electronics. That is, a non-lethal sort of weapon. It may be under certain circumstances one would see that.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
McINTYRE: Now, Franks will return to his forward headquarters in Qatar in just a few days. And, meanwhile, the biggest roadblock on the march to war is not so much logistics, but political.
Pentagon sources say that once that second U.N. resolution is disposed of, one way over another, the U.S. will be ready to go and that puts the likely timetable, the window for war, sometime in the middle of this month -- Lou.
DOBBS: Jamie, thank you. Jamie McIntyre, senior Pentagon correspondent.
Iraq, of course, is one of several challenges facing this country and the world community.
North Korea continues to provoke the United States and the world. CNN has now learned there's a growing concern within the Bush administration that the United States could be heading for a military showdown with North Korea.
State Department correspondent Andrea Koppel has our report -- Andrea?
ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, and it's not only those long-time Korea watchers within the Bush administration who are raising that deep concern, but it's also some leading Senate Democrats, as well as some former U.S. officials, including Defense Secretary -- former Defense Secretary William Perry, who call North Korea and the continent -- the peninsula, one of the most dangerous places in the world.
Among others who have criticized the Bush administration's policy or lack thereof, as they accuse, among them is Senate leader -- minority leader now Tom Daschle, who said that he didn't quite understand why the Bush administration wasn't doing more.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. TOM DASCHLE (D-SD), MINORITY LEADER: Given the magnitude of the stakes, we have repeatedly urged the administration to get off the sidelines and face up to the developing crisis.
Unfortunately, in spite of the high stakes, the White House continues to sit back and watch, playing down the threat and apparently playing for time. But time is not on our side.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KOPPEL: Now, the latest move in this tit for tat action between the United States and the North Korea is the deployment now of 24 long-range air force bombers to the island of Guam. They are going there because the Pentagon wants to make sure that they would be on alert, should something happen on the Korean Peninsula.
Now what the administration is looking towards, of course, is if they begin that reprocessing of spent fuel rods.
This is not in reaction, U.S. officials say, to the weekend's interception of a U.S. spy plane by about four North Korean MiG fighters who intercepted the U.S. surveillance plane about 50 miles off the coast of the Korean Peninsula in international waters.
U.S. officials are calling this a serious escalation and the U.S. plans to formally protest this action as being reckless.
In addition, the administration is also coming under fire from critics who are saying, in fact, there are reports saying that the U.S. intends to allow North Korea to move ahead with its nuclear programs but only wants to stop the program should the North Koreans decide to proliferate.
Ari Fleischer was asked about this today at the White House.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is the United States now resigned to see North Korea develop a nuclear arsenal?
FLEISCHER: No. The position of the United States, along with our allies in the region, is just the opposite. That it's important to make certain that there's a denuclearized peninsula.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KOPPEL: Now, in its defense the Bush administration says it does have a policy, Lou, and that policy is not to succumb to blackmail by the north but to get the north's neighbors to engage with the U.S. in multilateral talks -- Lou.
DOBBS: Andrea, returning if we may to Senator Tom Daschle and his criticisms, did he have any specific suggestions or policy initiatives that he would like to see the Bush administration follow in the -- on North Korea?
KOPPEL: Senator Daschle and others believe that the U.S. should sit down and engage in bilateral talks with the north. Irrespective of the fact, the administration says that was done back in 1994 and look what happened. The north continued with the nuclear program.
But Senator Daschle believes that the U.S. needs to address this immediately rather than digging in its heels, in his eyes, and playing hardball with the north.
DOBBS: Andrea Koppel, from the State Department, thank you.
For more on the nuclear standoff with North Korea and the prospect of war with Iraq, please join us Friday when International Atomic Energy Agency director General Mohammad ElBaradei will be here.
Still ahead tonight, a report on the suicide bombing of a bus in Israel that killed 15.
The war against radical Islamists is being fought around the world by tens of thousands of U.S. forces. Kitty Pilgrim will have the report -- Kitty.
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, the number of terrorists rounded up is now in the thousands. The number of countries involved more than 100. We'll tell you how we're doing in the war against radical Islamists -- Lou.
DOBBS: Thank you.
And I'll be joined by counter-terrorism expert Daniel Benjamin who says recent al Qaeda arrests and victories for the United States may cause terrorists to accelerate their attacks.
A verbal war today at an Arab Summit meeting. Lots of insults, no results. We'll tell you about both.
On Wall Street today, stocks finished higher. With more on today's turn around, Christine Romans will have the market for us.
And the fastest growing white collar crime in America is theft of your identity. A special report tonight on how vulnerable you are to identity theft and what you can do to protect yourself and your family.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The FBI tonight has issued a warning to local law enforcement officials, informing them that the arrest of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed could itself prompt terrorist reprisals.
In its weekly intelligence briefing to police, the FBI said the arrest could accelerate execution of any terrorist plots already under way. The arrest of the al Qaeda operations chief last weekend in Pakistan is the latest victory in the war against radical Islamist terrorists. Yet counter-terrorism experts say the threat of terror is spreading wider than ever and U.S. forces are deploying around the world to fight it.
Kitty Pilgrim reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESONDENT (voice-over): A high profile arrest. One more caught.
According to testimony by the CIA director, George Tenet, one third of the top al Qaeda leadership has been killed or captured.
In the last year, the number of al Qaeda rounded up has grown from 1,000 to 3,000, and the number of countries involved in the captures has doubled to more than 100.
The United States has some kind of military presence in about 130 countries around the world, many in a search and destroy mission against terror. It's a widespread mission.
PAUL BREMER III, CHAIRMAN & CEO, MARSH CRISIS CONSULTING: I think the war on terrorism is clearly now a war against radical Islam, and wherever we find radical Islam, whether it's in Detroit or Jakarta, we have to do something about it. And it clearly is the sort of organizing principle for the war on terrorism.
PILGRIM: The CIA tells how al Qaeda has found refugee in Iran and Iran, in remote areas of Pakistan and Afghanistan.
Terrorism experts say other areas where radical Islamists have scattered may include the Pankesi Gorge (ph) in the former Soviet republic of Georgia, Chechnya, in Indonesia, Manila (ph) and possibly remote areas in South America.
DAVID ISBY, TERRORISM AND DEFENSE ANALYST: Al Qaeda is regrouping basically anywhere it can get a breathing spot. The most important place, I would say, would be in Pakistan. Includes the tribal territories of the northwest frontier providence. They're regrouping there.
PIGRIM: Osama bin Laden is still number one terrorist at large, but there are others who are wanted. The man thought to be bin Laden's deputy, Ayman Al Zawahiri, is at the top of the list.
Mullah Mohammed Omar is still being sought, as well as Afghan warlord Gulbuddin Hekmatyar.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
When at first they left the training camps in Afghanistan, it was a major blow to terrorism. But now it appears terrorists, although diffused and weakened, are even more of a challenge to track -- Lou. DOBBS: Kitty, thank you very much.
My next guest says the war against radical Islamist terrorists has wounded al Qaeda, but certainly, not crippled it.
Terrorism expert Daniel Benjamin says the United States needs to do more to stop the recruiting and the funding of radical Islamists. He is the author of "The Age of Sacred Terror." Daniel Benjamin is also a senior fellow at the CIS International Security Program, a former director for counter-terrorism at the National Security Council. He joins us tonight from Washington.
Daniel, good to have you with us.
DANIEL BENJAMIN, CENTER FOR STRATEGIC & INTERNATIONAL STUDIES: Good evening.
DOBBS: As Kitty Pilgrim just reported, the war against al Qaeda and related radical Islamist terrorist groups is literally worldwide in countries that many people would not even consider.
In your best judgment, your best appraisal, how successful is the U.S. and the coalition being in its fight against al Qaeda?
BENJAMIN: In terms of the intelligence and law enforcement work now, I think we've done a lot better than we could have expected on 9/11.
The number of arrests, the number of cells that have been disrupted, the numbers of operations that have been broken up has really been very impressive, and I think that U.S. intelligence and law enforcement can congratulate themselves on doing a good job.
This doesn't mean that we're out of the beginning of this fight yet. It simply means that we're getting better at it and that we have notched some important victories.
DOBBS: Do you agree with the assessment of some intelligence officials and others that the arrest of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed could like prompt -- provoke further terrorist attacks by al Qaeda?
BENJAMIN: I don't know whether the arrest of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed itself will prompt them, but what might happen is some plots that are already in execution mode might be accelerated so that they can be carried out. These are people who, by and large, are prepared to lose their lives and so they're prepared to take some risks.
Other plots simply may dissolve and the operatives may go to ground. It's very hard to predict without knowing exactly where they are on the execution time line.
DOBBS: In your book, you're critical of the FBI. Here last night, the chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, Orrin Hatch, said he is very pleased with the progress of reform at the FBI. He thinks that Bob Mueller is doing a terrific job there.
Have you relented any in your criticism since writing the book?
BENJAMIN: There's no question that the FBI is going through an enormous cultural transition, that it has recognized the threat before it, that it has realigned its priorities to take into account the terrorist challenge.
I'm no longer inside the government, so it's hard to make a real judgment on the day-to-day operations. There have also been, as you know, leaked e-mails that suggest that Director Mueller has been frustrated with the field offices.
I think in general the most important thing is that the FBI has taken stock of the threat before it, and we're going to have to see how it fares.
DOBBS: You also lay out in your book, if you will, a suggestion, an analysis of radical Islamists, their ideology deriving, as it does, from mainstream Muslim religion.
Why, in your judgment, is this administration so reluctant to say what is patently obvious? That the threat in worldwide terror now stems from radical Islamists, period.
BENJAMIN: Well, no doubt international politics is an important part of it.
Let me just clarify a little bit and say that the reason that bin Laden and others who espouse his ideology have been so successful was because it resonates with those who have an understanding of orthodox Islam.
There are deviations here. There are innovations and adaptations from ancient texts. You know, every religion is an ocean and you can pick out the parts that you want.
DOBBS: Certainly.
BENJAMIN: To construct the creed that you want. And I think we really need to be very careful about tarring hundreds of millions of believing Muslims with the wrong brush...
DOBBS: Daniel, whoa, whoa, whoa. I didn't tar anyone. I said...
BENJAMIN: I'm not suggesting you did.
DOBBS: I just want to be clear, since you raised the issue.
BENJAMIN: No. I said...
DOBBS: One can talk about radical Islamists as the source of worldwide terror, the source of the terror against the United States on September 11, going back to 1998 when you were serving the Clinton administration.
In each instance, those groups were radical Islamist terrorists and it does not in any way tar honest, sincere, good Muslims who practice their religion peacefully all around the world.
BENJAMIN: You're absolutely right. But I guess what I'm getting at is that right now there's enormous concern within the Islamic world that -- and particularly among governments in the Islamic world -- that their citizens are liable to be persuaded by the argument that bin Laden and the followers are making. And that argument is that the United States is waging a war on Islam.
I'm not going to say that the government -- our government has been doing the right thing in not calling something by its name, but what I am suggesting is that by avoiding any discussion of radical Islam specifically, the administration is trying to avoid any of the missteps that might make it difficult for regional governments to cooperate with us.
If you think back to the president's remark in which he talked about a crusade against terror and the fallout from that, I think it's easy to get an idea of how important words are and how important it is that we get all this right.
DOBBS: I think you're right. Words are important. And you've written a very important book, which I would commend to anyone on this issue.
But getting words right means, also, speaking the truth sometimes bluntly, specifically. Does it concern you, as one involved in counter-terrorism, as one analyzing the issue of radical Islamist terror, particularly in this instance, that those same states whose sensibilities we are concerned about offending, because of some reaction on the part of their population, did not -- would be so sensitive? Do you not think that is a concern, that they are not more adamant in their public expression of opposition to radical Islamist terrorism?
BENJAMIN: The fact is most of these countries are in their operations, and really in their thoughts, deeply concerned about the threat of Islamist terror. They all know, actually, that they're far more threatened than we are. And that really one of the central thrusts of bin Laden is the toppling of these regimes that he and radical Islamists consider apostate.
These are not democratic governments and they do not have a broad base of legitimacy. And so they tend to act in extremely cautious ways, because they're worried about uprisings of trouble in the street and general unrest.
I do think it is a problem. Just to come back to your original point, I think it's very important that Americans understand what a profound impact it has when religion becomes the motivation for terror. And that's why we wrote the book to begin with.
I think that we can at the same time be realistic about the problems in international politics here.
DOBBS: Daniel Benjamin, the author of "The Age of Sacred Terror," we thank you for being with us this evening. BENJAMIN: Thank you for having me.
DOBBS: Well, it was supposed to be a summit showing Islamic unity and solidarity against any war against Saddam Hussein. But it erupted into a shouting match between officials from Iraq and Kuwait.
A senior aide to Iraqi president Saddam Hussein was giving a speech at the emergency summit in Qatar when Kuwait's foreign minister apparently interrupted him. The Iraqi official took offense. He stopped his speech and yelled across the room to the Kuwaiti delegation, crying shut up, you monkey.
The exchange was caught on live television until the Qatar state broadcaster shut down the transmission.
Coming up next, a suicide bombing in Haifa today ended two months without a terrorist attack in Israel. We'll have a report for you from Haifa.
And Nobel laureate, long-time peace activist Elie Wiesel, supports the Bush administration's policy on Iraq. The Nobel Peace Price winner will join me next to tell us why a preemptive strike against Iraq may be necessary.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Still ahead tonight, hundreds of thousands of Americans have had their identity stolen on the Internet. Jan Hopkins reports tonight on how you can protect yourself from identity theft.
The Supreme Court upheld California's three-strike law today. It provides the tougher penalties for three-time offenders. Bill Tucker will have the report on whether those punishments fit the crimes.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Fifteen people were killed today when a suicide bomber blew himself up on a bus in northern Israel. Forty other people were injured in the explosion. Many of the passengers were students at the nearby University of Haitha. The radical Islamist group Hamas tonight claimed responsibility for the attack.
Jerrold Kessel reports from Haitha.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JERROLD KESSEL, DEPUTY JERUSALEM BUREAU CHIEF (voice-over): A boot and a sneaker lie forlornly alongside the stricken bus. What remains of City Bus Number 37 as it headed from Haifa's seaside along Mount Caramel's main boulevard here to its intended destination, the city university.
Police say the bomber boarded at one of the earlier stops, before setting off his explosives as the bus pulled away from this stop, here near this children's dentist's office. The force of the explosion was such that parts of the bus were scattered 50 meters away. And the back part of the roof somersaulted over to the front. The dozens of wounded were quickly ferried away to hospital. Counting and removing the dead took longer, leaving the customary serenity of this pretty port city undone by this first such attack inside an Israeli city in two months.
(on camera): But it's scenes like these that remind Israelis that even the backdrop of a gathering war elsewhere in the Middle East, their battles with the Palestinians go on unrelieved.
(voice-over): Israeli forces have themselves been stepping up their attacks inside Palestinian areas, seeking to put Palestinian militants on the defensive. And it's working, saying Israel. No less than 50 such attacks stopped during the last two months of a lull.
Palestinians say that this kind of attack is the result of those Israeli actions which have just spread more and more Palestinian resentment. Either way, clearly now, the lull has been only temporary.
Jerrold Kessel, CNN, Haifa.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: In news around the world tonight, five people were killed in a car bombing in Northeastern Colombia. Eighteen others injured. The bomb exploded in an underground parking lot of a mall in Cucuta. The explosion ignited other cars in the parking lot. Police blame the bombing on leftist rebels.
A Kuwaiti policeman today sentenced for 15 years in prison for the November shooting of two U.S. soldiers. The men, who were not wearing their uniforms, were shot and wounded as they were driving in a civilian vehicle outside Kuwait City. This is the first trial in a recent series of attacks on U.S. military personnel in Kuwait.
And today, China opened its Annual People's Congress Legislative Session. the tow-week conference will mark the transfer of the leadership. President Jiang Zemin is expected to hand over his post to Communist Party General Secretary Hu Jintao.
My next guest is a Holocaust survivor. He says the world must stand up to Saddam Hussein. He is a peace activist. Author and Nobel Peace Prize Laureate Elie Wiesel says there is a moral duty to intervene say there's a moral duty to intervene when evil has power and uses it.
He met last week with national Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice to voice his support for the White House's stand on Iraq. Wiesel is also a professor at Boston University, home of the Elie Wiesel Center for Judaic Studies. Professor Wiesel joins us tonight from Los Angeles. Professor, good to have you with us.
ELIE WIESEL, NOBEL PEACE PRIZE WINNER: Thank you, Lou. DOBBS: The decision, your decision, to support military action should the president so decide against Iraq, what did you base it on? Because I know that your strong profound preference is for peace.
WIESEL: Because Saddam Hussein is a mass murder and he should have been indicted for crimes against humanity long ago, crimes committed against his own people.
Further more, we forget that he invaded Kuwait, we forget that he set afire all the oil fields, causing the worst ecological disaster in history. We forget what he has done. And we forget what he is capable of doing. We also forget now, quickly, that this man somehow, I think, is not normal.
When he said to Dan Rather he did not lose the war, that Iraq wasn't defeated, this man believes hallucinations. So how could we allow a man like him to have weapons of mass destruction?
It's true I'm always for peace. I have seen war. War is always a blasphemy, it's always a tragedy. And many innocent people die. And if one innocent people dies, the war can no longer be called a just war. Sometimes it's a necessary war.
And therefore, I feel that, now, because of the division between the United States and its former European allies, I think this is very serious because Saddam Hussein now believes in his fantasies that he can win this war.
And my feeling is if we could bring about a new entente, a new (UNINTELLIGIBLE), a new decision to go together and apply pressure together on Saddam Hussein that he would know that if he refuses now to disarm then he would lose this war. Shamefully.
And so maybe he will then decide to open up all of his factories, give up all of his weapons. This is the last chance he has and I'm for it.
DOBBS: Reproachment, as you say, does not appear likely or even possible given the fact that as you point out, the traditional U.S. allies France and Germany, are in opposition to the president's policy here.
They -- in talking with the German ambassador on this broadcast Monday, Professor, he said -- Ambassador Wolfgang Ischinger said that he would invite us to understand the German position precisely because of its history and aversion to war.
The Pope has said, as I think most of us would have expected him to say, that this war is not moral and that he would prefer that it not occur.
How do you respond to those statements? How do you respond to the number of people who are demonstrating for peace all over this country and, indeed, much of Europe?
WIESEL: Oh, I understand them. I understand those who fight for peace. I'm with them. Except, remember Rwanda? Why didn't we intervene in Rwanda? If we intervened in Rwanda we would have saved 600,000 men, women and children.
On the other hand, in '38 if we had intervened then, then we would have saved Germany from itself and from Hitler and 60 million people would have been saved.
Further more, we did intervened in the Balkans. And I had something to do with it. I went to Sarajevo and then I pleaded with the president.
Of course, I am for intervention. I'm not for war. I am for intervention. And intervention, of course, can have many meanings and many layers and many degrees and many levels. And therefore, everybody agrees, even the French agree, that if all other avenues are closed, they are also for war.
And I am not. I don't like war. I have lived through the war. I believe intervention and I still think, I still think that if the whole world rallies now against the United States and Britain and says to Saddam Hussein certain things that he should know, that he cannot win and shouldn't win, he doesn't deserve power, then maybe I hope it will be safe.
DOBBS: Elie Wiesel, we thank you very much for being with us this evening.
WIESEL: Thank you.
DOBBS: We'll turn now to our "MONEYLINE Poll." The question tonight is what do you think should influence the president's decision on whether to go to war against Saddam Hussein? Focus groups, peace protests and demonstrations, editorials or values and policy goals? Cast your vote at cnn.com/moneyline. We'll have the preliminary results for you coming up in the broadcast.
Now the final results of last evening's question. who should decide when a war against Iraq begins? Fifty-seven percent of you said the United Nations, 40 percent said the United States, 3 percent said France and Germany.
Still ahead here, Jan Hopkins will have a report on how easy it is for someone to steal your identity.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You want to try an interesting experiment? Take out your Citibank credit card, plug in the number on Google and see how many hits you get off your credit card number, how many hacker sites it exists on.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: Jan Hopkins will have that report.
And stealing videos or stealing millions of dollars from shareholders? You may be surprised or perhaps you won't be, to find out which crime will get you the most time. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Sometimes it's difficult to figure out just exactly the scales of justice in this country. Steal videos and a golf club, you get 25 years to life. Sell fake I.D.s to two of the September 11 terrorists and get six months.
Bill Tucker has the report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Some days justice appears more blind than usual.
The U.S. Supreme Court upholding the California's three strike law, meaning that a guy whose third strike was trying to stealing $400 worth of golf clubs will spend at least 25 years in jail. Another convicted felon will spend 50 years in prison for stealing $153 worth of videos from Kmart.
Meanwhile, the two executives who've been charged at Kmart with securities fraud and for conspiring to improperly recognize $42 million in revenue face a maximum of 15 years in prison.
Charles Conaway, the CEO at the helm when Kmart went bankrupt, hasn't been charged with anything. It's a kind of moment that often incites change.
RANDY MASTROW, FORMER FED. PROSECUTOR: It's those extreme cases, like the decisions that we're talking about today, that cause that healthy debate to occur as to whether we need to make an adjustment.
TUCKER: But the most outrageous moment of the day may belong to this man, Mohammed el-Atras (ph). He's the man who's admitted selling false identification papers to two of the men who hijacked planes on 9/11 and crashed them into the Pentagon and the World Trade Centers. His sentence? Time served, 180 days, and five years probation.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TUCKER: Now part of the reason for the light sentence, the prosecution dropped 13 counts as a condition of its plea bargain, and all of this for a man whose November bail hearing remains under sea, the government arguing that to release would endanger national security, Lou.
DOBBS: And, as you pointed out, these sentencing guidelines and issues are under strong review by the Bar Association.
TUCKER: Yes, they are.
DOBBS: Bill Tucker, thank you very much. An extraordinary system of justice on some days.
TUCKER: Amazing. DOBBS: Coming up next, your identity and your financial security are at risk. Jan Hopkins has the chilling report on the stunning rise in this country of identity theft on the Web -- Jan.
JAN HOPKINS, CNNfn CORRESPONDENT: Lou, I'll show you just how vulnerable your most personal information is online -- Lou.
DOBBS: Looking forward to it, Jan. Thank you.
Also, big media companies -- well, they're growing even bigger. This time, Vivendi's entertainment assets are up for sale and only big companies need apply, Viacom in particular. Peter Viles will have the report.
All of that and more as MONEYLINE continues.
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DOBBS: In news "Across America" tonight, the Supreme Court today ruled that states may put pictures of convicted sex offenders on the Internet. Justice Anthony Kennedy said sex offender registries are not an unconstitutional punishment, but rather are intended to inform the public for their safety.
Students at some colleges and universities walked out of class today. They pro -- were protesting a possible war against Saddam Hussein. Attendance at the so-called "Books, Not Bombs" rallies, however, was somewhat spotty. Some students showing up in support, in fact, of President Bush.
We were inundated today with your reaction to last night's report by Kitty Pilgrim on a survey that found 80 percent of Americans don't care what celebrities think about war against Iraq.
A sample: Verna Withrow of Maryland wrote to say, "Movie stars are people who have the right to express their opinions the same as you or I. I wouldn't expect their opinion to influence any one else's. It certainly doesn't affect mine."
Chris Loper of Oregon wrote to say, "What about Ronald Reagan? He was a celebrity and look where his opinions got him."
A number of viewers wrote in with comments similar to this, from Joe Galliani in California: "Your one-sided piece on celebrity protesters seemed like it was produced by Fox News to me."
Jim Schneider of Virginia apparently agreed. He wrote to say, "Lou, great show. I switched from Fox to watch your show every day."
We appreciate your comments. Please e-mail us at moneyline@cnn.com. We'll share your thoughts as well on other topics later in the broadcast.
There's one more line from a letter I'd like to add tonight. It comes from country and western music star Charlie Daniels addressed to the Hollywood bunch, as he called them, and some strong words. Quote -- "I'm going to exercise some freedom of choice of my own. If I see any of your names on a marquee, I'm going to boycott the movie. I will completely stop going to movies if I have to. In most cases, it certainly wouldn't be much of a loss." Daniels also said to the Hollywood bunch -- quote -- "You are some of the most disgusting examples of a waste of protoplasm I've ever had the displeasure to hear about."
You've got to love political debate and democracy.
A reminder now to vote in the poll tonight. Another opportunity to vote and express your opinion. "What do you think should influence the president's decision making on Iraq? Focus groups? Protests? Demonstrations? Editorials? Values/Policy goals?"
Cast your vote at cnn.com/moneyline. We'll have the preliminary results coming up in a matter of minutes.
Identity theft is the fastest growing white collar crime in this country. The Federal Trade Commission says it received nearly 400,000 complains last year. That's up a third from the previous year. And losses are growing, as well.
Some experts predict consumers may lose as much as $8 billion each year by 2005 because of identity theft. Jan Hopkins has this amazing report -- Jan.
HOPKINS: Well, Lou, I wanted to see how vulnerable we all are to having identity theft -- a theft of our identity online.
So I went to Mark Goodman. He's a former officer in charge of LAPD's Internet unit. He's now with Decision Strategies. I wanted to see how easy it was to get information about me on the Web. And within a few minutes, he knew enough to steal my identity.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MARK GOODMAN, DECISION STRATEGIES: We also are able to locate your Social Security number. We know when it was issued, in what state.
HOPKINS: Wow.
GOODMAN: We know your home address. We have apartment numbers, zip codes. We have additional property that we located, vehicles for you and your husband.
HOPKINS: All this comes up under me?
GOODMAN: Yes.
HOPKINS (voice-over): Experts say people let down their guards online, making them prey to scams like the recent one on monster.com, where a fake job listing netted a list of applicants' Social Security numbers. HARRIS MILLER, INFORMATION TECH. ASSN. OF AMERICA: We get a lot of people go online with organizations they have never heard of or people they've never heard of and give them all types of information. You have to be as smart online as you are in your personal dealings with other people or people on the telephone.
HOPKINS: To protect yourself from identity theft, Miller suggests that you don't give out financial or medical information online unless you know the firm you're dealing with. Don't give out your Social Security number or the names of your children, period. Don't use your Social Security number on the driver's license. Change the computer pass words regularly.
Mark Goodman points out that in many offices, workers tape complicated passwords on their computer screen, making them easy to steal.
Also remember that when you get rid of an old computer, your personal information could still be embedded in the hardrive.
But that's not enough. Privacy groups say Congress needs to step in.
MARC ROTTENBERG, ELECTRONIC PRIVACY INFO CTR.: We can't really expect consumers to be information survivalists. I mean, they can't hide themselves in their homes with their windows drawn tight and their computers left in the off position. That wouldn't make any sense. And that's probably why we do need legislation and we do need better technology to help protect consumers against identity theft.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HOPKINS: Senate Banking Committee is considering a bill on identity thief prevention, it beefs up penalties basically. Tomorrow, Visa will announce only last four digits of credit cards displayed on consumer receipts but that doesn't start until July -- Lou.
DOBBS: If there is identity theft, are you liable for whatever takes place?
HOPKINS: Well, with credit card companies, you know, it's a minimal liability. The big problem is takes a long to get the identity back. It's really difficult to do. And sometimes you don't even know.
DOBBS: That's amazing. All right.
Jan, thank you very much. Terrific report.
Ahead, Vivendi media assets may be on the auction block, but timing may not be on their side.
Peter Viles will have the story -- Pete.
PETER VILES, CNNfn CORRESPONDENT: Lou, timing is everything and may be about the worst time in history to try to sell, among other things, a record company -- Lou.
DOBBS: (OFF-MIKE)
That story and a great deal more. We'll continue, stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: One of the most disastrous international mergers in media is unwinding. Vivendi.
Peter Viles has the story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
VILES (voice-over): It was short, it was not very sweet and now looks like it's over. The French conglomerate Vivendi brief adventure in Hollywood.
DAVID DAVIS, HOULIHAN LOKEY HOWARD & ZORIN: I think the French came, they saw, and I think they'll probably leave.
VILES: Under pressure to reduce debt, they're shopping the U.S. entertainment assets. Among them, universal music, the home of Eminem and U-2, Universal Studios, theme parks and cable networks USA and the Sci-fi Channel. In better economic times, would have a times of a media bidding war, maybe even a rematch of the great Paramount battle, between Barry Diller and Sumner Redstone. But right now, the front runner is oil billionaire Marvin Davis that once owned 20th Century Fox.
PORTER BIBB, TECHNOLOGY PARTNERS: First of all, he's the only bidder offering to buy the entire package, and secondly, he's the only bidder put a number on the table up to now and it's a substantial number, it's $15 billion in cash and $5 billion in assumption of debt.
VILES: Wild cards here include Redstone who's Viacom has the strongest balance sheet in the media business, and might be interested in the cable networks and Diller who runs the Universal Entertainment unit has the right to block any sale of the assets and loves the art of the deal. A third wild card is the music business, it is in a terrible slump. Nobody knows what it's worth and right now, nearly half of it can be bought. Universal has 29 percent of the market and Warner Music, a corporate cousin of CNN, has 16 percent.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
VILES: Years past, a sale like this brought in big international bidders. Companies like Sony, Vivendi, they're not here now. Looks like this is a game right now for the old boys club and Hollywood -- Lou.
DOBBS: And the young fellow, Barry Diller gets to have a significant influence.
VILES: The youngest and he's just north of 60.
DOBBS: OK, Pete, thanks a lot.
Let's turn to Wall Street where there was some winners to talk about today.
Our own winner, Christine Romans has the market for us -- Christine.
CHRISTINE ROMANS, NEW YORK STOCK EXCHANGE CORRESPONDENT: Hi there, Lou.
First higher day in three for the Dow but dozens of household names hitting 52 week lows. It wasn't a good name for a burger and a Coke. Pepsi Bottling shares tumbling 18 percent after it slashed earning targets. Coke, now, at the lowest price in seven years and McDonald's, the weakest since 1994. Defense, air and space and a few transport stocks are weak as well. Dozens of retailers own the list and Boeing fell to a 8-year low. 162 big board stocks hitting 52-week lows. Only 30 hitting new highs. And Schering Plow cut it's 2003 targets again. Hitting 6-year lows after it slashed those targets because of Claritin's transition to over the counter. It's a Schering Plow second time they have warned for the year -- Lou.
DOBBS: Christine, thank you.
Coming up next, the results of the poll and your e-mails. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
The preliminary results of the poll tonight. We asked, "What do you think should be influencing the president's decision making on Iraq?" Five percent of you said focus groups, 23 percent said protests and demonstrations, 1 percent said editorials, 71 percent said values and policy goals.
Last night's poll question on who should decide when a war on Iraq begins, Jacques Moore in New Mexico wrote to say, " If we let the United Nations tell us what to do, that's like letting a third world nation run our military and I for one don't want that to happen."
On North Korea, N.J. Riggs said it -- he's from Los Angeles, "Other countries including China, Japan, and South Korea must step up to the plate and deal with North Korea. It is time for other countries to share the burden of maintaining and promoting world peace."
And on the rise of gasoline prices, Cathy Lin, wrote in the from Canada to point out that gas is a bargain compared to other common liquids. A gallon of milk, she points out, running $2.78 a gallon, Tropicana Oranges Juice, $4.38 a gallon, and that puts it in perspective, I think. A bottle of beer or at least gallon of it $6.68. Some would say that's still a bargain.
We appreciate your thoughts. E-mail us a moneyline@cnn.com, include your name and address. That's MONEYLINE for this Wednesday evening. Thanks for being with us, for all us here good night from New York.
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