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CNN LOU DOBBS MONEYLINE
Interviews With James Woolsey, George Soros, Mike Farrell; Elizabeth Smart Found After Missing For 9 Months
Aired March 12, 2003 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, HOST: Well, tonight the missing teenager, Elizabeth Smart has been found in a Salt Lake City suburb. We will have the very latest for you on this developing story.
Also tonight, the debate over war with Iraq. The actor Mike Ferrell won fame in the television series "MASH", a anti-war series. Tonight he will be joininging us. He leads a group of celebrities opposed to conflict, military conflict with Iraq. He'll be here to explain why he's against a possible war with Iraq.
Saddam Hussein continues to defy the world six months after the president made a dramatic appeal to the United Nations for action. Kitty Pilgrim will have a special report on the U.N.'s failure to force Iraq to disarm.
Financier trillionaire George Soros says the United Nations still has the ability to be an extremely effective international body. He will join us tonight.
And former CIA Director James Woolsey will be here. He says the United States does not need a new Security resolution to take military action against Saddam Hussein. George Soros (sic) will give us his assessment of the latest diplomatic moves and what he thinks the Bush administration should be doing.
The economic ties that bind France to Iraq. Bill Tucker will have a special report on the economic links that may be driving French opposition, at least in part, to possible military action against Iraq.
The Pentagon now says nearly 200,000 National Guard and Reserve troops have been called to active duty. Their service often comes with a heavy personal financial burden. Mary Snow will have a live report for us.
And on Wall Street today, stocks ended slightly higher after being on course for a third consecutive day of losses. Greg Harkin will have the market for us.
An extraordinary and dramatic development tonight in Salt Lake City, Utah. Fifteen-year-old Elizabeth Smart, who vanished from her home nearly nine months ago, has been found alive. Elizabeth was discovered in the car of a drifter during a traffic stop in Sandy, Utah, that's a Salt Lake City suburb, just about 13 miles outside Salt Lake City. The drifter once worked at the Smart family home.
Our Mike Brooks joins us now and has more on what is an amazing story -- Mike.
MIKE BROOKS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It is amazing this discovery. I've never seen anything in all my years of law enforcement like this at all, Lou. This girl disappeared on June 5, 2002. She was 14 at the time, she's now 15.
Police were tipped off by two separate women who called law enforcement and said they saw the subject that they knew, they called "Emmanuel". His real name is Brian David Mitchell. He apparently had done some work at the Smart's home as a handyman.
But they -- when police pulled him over in a small town called Sandy, which is about 15 miles from the Smart home, just south of Salt Lake City, they -- he was in the company of a woman and Elizabeth. AP is reporting that she had on a wig at the time she was found by Sandy police. Sandy police took her to Salt Lake City, she is now in the custody of Salt Lake City Police Department.
And they -- law enforcement sources in Salt Lake City, Lou, call this "Emmanuel", this Brian David Mitchell, they call him a religious fanatic. We a few moments ago, John Ferguson (ph) was one of the eyewitnesses who spoke with us. And he said that when he saw the police pull the car over, there was a woman who had a vail on. He said looked like it was some kind of religious veil.
And I'm sure this -- the law enforcement will want to find out, number one, if, in fact, she was taken as reported by force from her home on June 5 or she went voluntarily with this Brian David Mitchell, because she knew him from doing work at the home -- Lou.
DOBBS: Brian David Mitchell, a name that has been associated with this case, today apparently pictures again released of the suspect causing at least two people to call in to police to say they'd seen someone at least approximating his description. Can you tell us why the police had not been doing this more rigorously and sooner?
BROOKS: Well, they had, apparently, been looking at this subject from hearing -- from law enforcement sources there, Lou.
And last month Elizabeth's parents announced a new reward and also put a -- this photo of this "Emmanuel" subject out to the public. Apparently Mary Katherine, who is Elizabeth's 9-year-old sister, said that he resembled the man who came in to their bedroom that night of June 5 and took Elizabeth by gunpoint.
So apparently she saw some kind of resemblance there and that's why law enforcement and Elizabeth's parents had been looking for the subject ever since -- Lou.
DOBBS: Mike, do we have any sense of Elizabeth's condition now that she's in custody?
BROOKS: No, we don't. The witnesses apparently on the scene say that she looked as if she was healthy. But after nine months away from her parents, away from her family, with this person, I'm sure that she'll be suffering psychological trauma. But that will be something that we'll have to wait and see.
Law enforcement right now is probably going to try to get as much information from Brian David Mitchell and from Elizabeth, but treating Elizabeth with kid gloves at this time.
DOBBS: Oh, absolutely. And, Mike Brooks, we will be turning to you as this story develops throughout the evening. We thank you.
And we want to remind our viewers, Salt Lake City Police are now planning to hold a news conference at 7:00 Eastern time. We have also been told that the Smart family may be holding a news conference as well. That, if it does occur, to come at 8:30 Eastern time.
And obviously, Mike Brooks will be covering this story as will all of our other correspondents throughout the network on what is a remarkable, amazing and a story with what appears to be a wonderfully happy ending. Elizabeth Smart, missing since being abducted on June 5 of last year, now safely in custody in Utah.
Turning to the other big news of the day, the countdown to a possible war with Iraq, it now appears the only thing that will stop a Security Council resolution approving the use of force against Iraq is a veto.
The United States believes it has eight votes now in favor of a resolution. It needs only one more to win a majority, as defined by the Security Council. That vote could be held tomorrow or Friday. State Department Correspondent Andrea Koppel has the report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN STATE DEPARTMENT CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The Bush administration believes it's only one vote away from the nine it'll need to pass a second U.N. resolution.
RICHARD BOUCHER, STATE DEPARTMENT SPOKESMAN: I wouldn't deny that we're making progress, but I don't want to mislead you into thinking we've got it in the bag.
KOPPEL: The latest breakthrough, U.S. and British officials tell CNN, fresh assurances, Angola, Cameroon and Guinea, three of the six undecided Security Council members, will support the resolution.
In addition, officials say Pakistan's president has also signaled his willingness to vote yes, providing the U.S., Great Britain and Spain with eight of the nine votes needed.
Still not on board, Chile and Mexico. Two years ago, Mexico's support would have been a given, but differences over immigration policy had soured a close relationship.
The Bush administration denies it is engaged in dollar diplomacy with any of the undecideds, but one State Department official told CNN the message is, quote, "their votes are very important to us."
At the same time, the administration was noticeably noncommittal about a new British proposal with specific benchmarks to test Iraqi compliance.
BOUCHER: As far as whether they become part of the resolution or the resolution package, that's a question of really how useful they are in terms of getting other members of the council on board.
KOPPEL: And in a highly unusual public criticism of French President Jacques Chirac, a close U.S. ally, Boucher said the French threat to veto was, quote, "disturbing".
BOUCHER: Frankly saying that he'll veto the resolution no matter what sends precisely the wrong signal to Baghdad.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KOPPEL: And not just to Baghdad. Today the Spanish Prime Minister Aznar said that because of that strong commitment from the French to veto, that his government, the British government and the U.S. were now considering, Lou, the possibility of not introducing the resolution for a vote.
Now, obviously, that's raised a lot of questions. Does he mean not introducing it for a vote this week? Does he mean it'll be pushed to the next? Or that it won't be introduced at all? We just don't know the answer to that question.
DOBBS: Andrea, thank you very much. Andrea Koppel from the State Department.
The White House today said President Bush is going the last mile for diplomacy. The president spent another day lobbying world leaders about a second U.N. resolution. John King, our senior White House correspondent, has the story for us -- John.
JOHN KING, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: And, Lou, we are in the middle of what one senior administration official calls diplomatic muddle.
As Andrea noted, after days of being adamant there would be a vote on the resolution and that it would come this week, White House officials say that is still the president's preference, but they are leaving open the possibility the vote could slip, even leaving open the possibility there could be no vote at all.
President Bush today called the Russian President Vladimir Putin. We are told that conversation was an effort to dissuade President Putin from using his veto power on the Security Council.
Also a phone call to President Pervez Musharraf of Pakistan. As Andrea reported, the White House increasingly confident Pakistan will be there in the end.
Although White House officials say this: the current draft of the resolution has those benchmarks the British want about disarmament, but has no deadline at the moment, and that could become the last minute sticking point. The White House is adamant there must be a deadline and that deadline must be within a week or so of the president's previous agreement with the British to have a March 17 deadline.
At the end of the day today, Mr. Bush did speak both to Prime Minister Blair and Prime Minister Aznar. White House officials saying the consultations between the three co-sponsors will continue.
And the one thing we do know for certain, Lou, as the situation on the Security Council is quite uncertain tonight, U.S. officials say once the situation at the U.N. is wrapped up, no matter how it goes for the United States, the president will pivot quickly and deliver remarks to the American people and to Saddam Hussein, making clear of how he sees things playing out over the next week or two -- Lou.
DOBBS: John, thank you very much.
Coming up next here, we'll have the latest on this remarkable developing story of Elizabeth Smart, the young teenager who was found safe today outside of Salt Lake City, Utah, after being taken from her home there June 5 of last year. A story with a happy ending.
Saddam Hussein still has not disarmed, six months after President Bush called for action. Kitty pilgrim will have a special report.
Former CIA Director James Woolsey will be here to tell us the United States does not need another U.N. resolution to take military action against Saddam Hussein.
And the man who brought democracy to Serbia has been assassinated. We'll have the latest for you on the assassination of Zoran Djindjic.
Nearly 200,000 National Guard and reserve troops have been called up for active duty.
Mary Snow will have a live report on the financial price that many of those troops are paying to serve their country.
And on Wall Street today, stocks rebounded a bit late in the session, ended the day slightly higher. Greg Clarkin will have the market for us.
And there seems to be no limit to the rise in gasoline prices. You will find it hard to believe just how much some drivers in California are paying for a gallon of gasoline. That story and a great deal more still ahead.
Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The United States continues to build support for a U.N. resolution that would authorize military action against Saddam Hussein. Former CIA Director James Woolsey says the United States doesn't need such U.N. approval to remove Saddam Hussein from power. Woolsey also says that regime change in Iraq is only the first step required to bring stability to the Middle East. He joins us now from Washington, D.C. Good to have you with us.
JAMES WOOLSEY, FORMER CIA DIRECTOR: Lou, good to be with you.
DOBBS: It looks as though tonight that the Bush administration is one vote short of a majority in the Security Council. It also appears that the Bush administration is committed to trying to win such a vote, if not this week, as we had been led to believed, at least next week.
What is your reaction?
WOOLSEY: Well, I think it's probably a very good idea because it will probably help Tony Blair, and he has been a very courageous man throughout all this.
But I think that's what this is largely about. It's not really about the legality of the matter under international law or otherwise.
The -- first of all...
DOBBS: Jim, could I do this? I apologize for this -- we have this breaking story.
(INTERRUPTED BY CNN COVERAGE OF BREAKING NEWS)
DOBBS: I want to turn to James Woolsey. And Jim, I apologize. We're following this story.
WOOLSEY: We're all rejoicing with the Smart family.
DOBBS: An amazing story. A happy ending.
Turning to the issue of the United Nations, there is also, I think, a solid case that could be built here that the United Nations, perhaps some other countries, particularly France and Germany, have done a very effective job of shifting the burden back to the United States away from Saddam Hussein, and focusing, if you will, on the leadership of the Bush administration.
And I'm sort of surprised, frankly, that a number of people have not pointed out had the French, the Germans to this point retained some solidarity on the issue of Iraq, that perhaps -- that, one could argue rather effectively that more pressure would have been applied to Saddam Hussein in the inspection process and perhaps would have worked better.
WOOLSEY: I think you're absolutely right. If this report about Cameroon and Guinea and Angola and Pakistan turns out to be true, they will be more responsible members of the international community, I think, then the Chirac and Schroeder governments in France and Germany.
Lou, I think there's two real quick points to make about the legality of this war. First of all, it's not a new war. It was temporarily halted with a temporary ceasefire 12 years ago, and Saddam is clearly in violation of that ceasefire because, whatever you think about the state of the nuclear weapons development there, he clearly has chemical and bacteriological weapons and missiles of more than 150 kilometers. So there's nothing new. There's nothing that needs to be started up. It's enforcing a ceasefire-- that's been violated.
But even if it were new, the situation is such that, in the 55 or so years since the founding of the U.N., there have been exactly two times that the Security Council has authorized the use of force: in Korea, in 1950 because the Soviet Union had walked out, and then in 1991, first President Bush was able to get it done.
There have between 100 and 150 wars, depending on how you count, since the U.N. was founded. And in no other cases has anybody gotten an authorizing resolution to start a war. France rampaged around West Africa all the time, sometimes bidden by government, sometimes unbidden and never remotely considers getting Security Council authorization. So it's just simply not the case that it requires Security Council authorization, even if were a new war, and it's certainly not a new war.
DOBBS: Let's turn to another flash point, and that is North Korea. And the absence of action and apparently an inability to consider action on the part of the United Nations in North Korea, as it moves -- appears to move, certainly, toward an enriched plutonium and the manufacture of nuclear weapons. Is there a role here for the United Nations because it appears, to this juncture, that neither Russia nor China or South Korea, for that matter, is willing to assert their influence.
WOOLSEY: Well, North Korea has violated the nonproliferation treaty, and Mr. ElBaradei, the head of the International Atomic Energy Agency, who's also playing a role in Iraq, has moved to report this to the appropriate organization, the Security Council at the U.N., and I think that's the appropriate next step. And I think the Bush administration is right to try to keep this in the world of multilateral enforcement if one can, because it's a different situation. It's a clear violation of a treaty, and the provisions called for this to happen.
I think the other countries are trying to just hold our coats, the South Koreans and the Russians and the Chinese, and let us try to deal with this so they don't, you know, get their hands dirty. But I think the Bush administration is right to try to press them into service here. They are nearer to North Korea than we are.
DOBBS: There is an extraordinary dichotomy in the world view. Those regional powers wanting the United States to handle North Korea unilaterally and insisting on multilateralism in other quarters of the world.
WOOLSEY: Right.
DOBBS: Jim Woolsey, it is good to have you with us. Thank you.
WOOLSEY: Good to be with you, Lou. DOBBS: Tonight, there is a state of emergency in the former Yugoslavia. Serbian Prime Minister Zoran Djindjic was assassinated today. The Serbian government is blaming organized crime for his death. Djindjic was gunned down outside Serbia's main government building in Belgrade. He played a key role in removing former Yugoslavian leader Slobodan Milosevic from order. Djindjic was seen as a pro-Western reformer.
Coming up next, we'll have more coverage of the discovery late today of Elizabeth Smart, the Utah teenager missing for nearly nine months. Salt Lake City police will have a news conference at 7:00 Eastern tonight. We'll be carrying it live.
And the high price of patriotism. A special report tonight on the financial impact on hundreds of thousands of reservists called to action. Mary Snow will have a report from Garden City, New York -- Mary.
MARY SNOW, CNNfn CORRESPONDENT: Lou, some reservists answering the call to duty are not only leaving behind their families, but their livelihoods -- Lou.
DOBBS: Mary, thank you.
And later, trading with the enemy. France, the top seller to Iraq, exporting more than half a billion dollars a year. Other nations have contracts to develop Iraq's oil fields. Bill Tucker will have the story.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: In "News Across America" tonight, oil prices surged more than $1 a barrel today, putting more pressure on gasoline prices. There is now a station in the San Diego area, believe it or not, charging $4.29 a gallon for a power premium gasoline. The station owner says he's running low on fuel and waiting to be resupplied. The average price for unleaded regular in this area is $2.12 a gallon.
Hundreds of people gathered in Cincinnati for a rally in support of U.S. military troops today, waving flags and singing patriotic songs. Many of those at the rally have children in the military, some of them in the Gulf.
Nearly 200,000 reservists have been called to active duty. This is the largest call-up of the United States since the Gulf War. For families and many of the businesses that employ them, the commitment to serve comes at a high price.
Mary Snow has the report for us tonight from Garden City, New York.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LYNN BRINKER, WIFE OF RESEVRIST: Time to come up and get ready for school.
SNOW (voice-over): Getting three boys of the out of the house each morning is a challenge for any mother. But adding to Lynn Brinker's worries -- paying the bills. The family is living on half of what her husband used to earn as a self-employed home improvement contractor.
Mark Brinker is an army reservist who's been called to duty. The problem is he just served a year following September 11. When he's gone, the business shuts down.
BRINKER: We're full of anxiety over is he going to have any work when he gets back? How will we be able to pay our bills when he gets back? So it's not just for the time being. It's for when he gets back.
SNOW: In Kuwait, Captain Jeffrey Jacoff also thinks about what happens when he gets back from duty and returns home to his five-year- old daughter and his girlfriend.
Already, he's budgeting future spending after sizing up the difference between what he was earning and his paycheck as a reservist.
CAPT. JEFFREY JACOFF, RESERVIST: When I found out it was approximately a $30,000 pay cut, without benefits, it kind of made me sit back and wonder, what do I do?
SNOW: One thing in Captain Jacoff's favor: he'll have his law enforcement job when he returns to Chicago. That's the big difference between those serving in the military now and those who served in the Gulf War. A law has since been passed requiring employers to hold jobs and provide 30 days of medical coverage before military health insurance takes over.
But some reservists are finding they don't have to rely on Uncle Sam.
LT. COL STEPHEN BROZAN, DEFENSE DEPARTMENT: I'm finding that a lot of companies are going out there and even going beyond what they expect.
SNOW: Some blue chip companies, like First Data and Morgan Stanley, will pay their reservists full salary for six months to a year.
Others, including Lucent and Pfizer, are making up the difference in paychecks for two years.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SNOW: And tonight here in Garden City, New York, 360 Marines are becoming some of the latest reservists to report for duty. This infantry batallion is slated to leave any minute now for Camp Lejeune, North Carolina before heading overseas. And it's been particularly rough for them. They reported for duty for a year following September 11 and then found out just last week they were being reactivated -- Lou.
DOBBS: Mary, thank you very much. Mary Snow.
Still ahead here, we'll have more on the amazing discovery just a little more than an hour ago today. We learned that Elizabeth Smart, the Utah teenager kidnapped nearly nine months ago, is in custody. She is safe.
Bill Tucker tonight will take a look at the economic ties that bind and which countries are doing business with Iraq -- Bill.
BILL TUCKER, CNNfn CORRESPONDENT: Lou, do the names on this list strike a chord or sound familiar? France, Russia, China. We'll talk about the link beyond the Security Council coming up.
DOBBS: Bill, thank you.
President Bush has spent six months trying to convince the United Nations to move against Saddam Hussein. We'll tell you what has transpired over that period.
And we'll be joined by philanthropist, financier George Soros, who says the United Nations can be an effective tool for world peace.
An antiwar activist, actor Mike Farrell, wants President Bush to give U.N. weapons inspectors a chance. He'll tell us why coming up on MONEYLINE.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: On top news tonight, the missing Salt Lake City teenager Elizabeth Smart has been found alive. She was kidnapped from her home last June while her family slept. We'll have live coverage of an expected Salt Lake City Police news conference at 7:00 P.M. Eastern tonight. And a news conference by the Smart family is expected at 8:30 this evening Eastern time.
Turning now to the Iraq crisis, the White House today said diplomacy cannot go on forever, sometimes it only seems like it. In fact, this day marks an anniversary. It has been six months since the president went to the United Nations with a dramatic speech, asking that body to force Saddam Hussein to disarm.
Kitty Pilgrim has the story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KITTY PILGRIM, CNNfn CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Six months ago, in a speech to the U.N. General Assembly, President Bush made his claim.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Saddam Hussein's regime is a grave and gathering danger. To suggest otherwise is to hope against the evidence.
PILGRIM: Six months later, the evidence is in.
ARI FLEISCHER, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: This is a process that began in September when the president went to the Security Council. The --this is a test of the Security Council.
PILGRIM: In September, the president stated U.N. inspectors believe Iraq has produced two to four times the amount of biological agents it declared. Also, United Nations inspections also revealed that Iraq likely maintains stockpiles of VX, mustard, and other chemical agents.
Months later, Secretary of State Colin Powell laid out the evidence to the U.N.. "We haven't accounted for the Anthrax. We haven't acted for the botlism the VX, the bulk biological agent, growth media, 30,000 chemical and biological munitions."
Again, on March 7, Powell went before the United Nations saying, "Iraq had and still has the capability to manufacture not only chemical, but biological weapons. And that Iraq had and still has literally tens of thousands of delivery systems, including increasingly capable and dangerous unmanned aerial vehicles."
MARC GOPIN, FLETCHER SCHOOL AL TUFTS: Colin Powell's speeches have made a very persuasive case of what is there and the cat and mouse game that has been intentionally played for many years.
PILGRIM: U.N. historians say six months to make the case was not necessary.
ROBERT TURNER, UNIVERSITY OF VIRGINIA: It was useful to lay out the evidence, but in a sense, it was unnecessary to do so. The very first purpose of the United Nations set forth in article II, article I, section 1 of the U.N. charter is let collectively to remove threats to the peace. It's not just to respond to aggression.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Many think the six months has not been wasted. Plenty of time to make the case, weigh the evidence. Plenty of time to move troops into place to back up the threat of action. But still not enough time to get consensus from the United Nations -- Lou.
DOBBS: Kitty, thank you very much.
My next guest strongly disagrees with my commentary here last night talking about the relevance of the United Nations. Billionaire financier, philanthropist George Soros says the United Nations has the potential to be an extremely effective body. Soros has also criticized President Bush's handling of the Iraqi situation and says the Bush administration has a, quote, "visceral aversion to international cooperation." He joins me now.
George, good to have you with us.
GEORGE SOROS, PRES. & CHMN., SOROS FUND MGMT. : A pleasure.
DOBBS: You disagree with me that Kofi Annan, the United Nations, have not been as active or effective as they should have been in this crisis and others, why not?
SOROS: Well, the United Nations is only as good as the countries that belong to it. So it is a forum. And it's - you said yesterday that it's making itself irrelevant. Well, do you realize that if you go into Iraq, we will to go back to the United Nations after we have won the war because we will need to have the legitimacy for occupying Iraq. We will not be able to be there without U.N. resolutions.
DOBBS: George, I guess the question that would occur to me is, how much difficulty did we have when Mr. Chinton was in office in finding international cooperation, United Nations support in Kosovo and Bosnia?
SOROS: Yes. And I was very much in favor. I'm a bit of a hawk also on Iraq. And I'm very concerned about the fact that we're going about it the wrong way. How is it that basically most of the world agrees that Saddam is a threat, that we have to deal with, yet, most of the world is opposed to our policies? There must be something wrong with the way we're doing it. And that, I think, is the Bush doctrine, which basically arrogates to us the right of preemptive action. And that, I think, contradicts the United Nations. It contradicts our values, American values, because...
DOBBS: I think this is a legitimate point that you make. And it certainly is a struggle, the issue of a preemptive strike. But at the same time, the threats are significant, they are present, even Kofi Annan, the Germans, who resist U.S. policy on this, and sincerely so, acquiesce on the issue that they have weapons of mass destruction.
SOROS: And we need to deal with it. I'm all in favor. And I would also be very happy to see Saddam gone, if that were possible.
DOBBS: I think we can reach unanimity of view (ph).
SOROS: Yeah. No, absolutely. There's something wrong with the Bush doctrine, with the dominant fashion within the Bush administration that believes that international relations are relations of power, not law, that legality and legitimacy are just decorations.
DOBBS: Well, when you say that, just decorations, how does one interpret Resolution 1441? It says in the most forthright terms that Saddam Hussein is required to disarm.
SOROS: Correct.
DOBBS: It states in the most certain terms that it had 30 days in which to do so, which is long past. It says that if he fails to do so and demonstrates an inclination not to do so, that he faces grave consequences. The resolution refers to a final judgment by the Security Council. SOROS: Right. All this is true, however, the inspections were making progress. They could make more progress. And the only reason we must go to war now is because the troops are lined up and ready to go. And that's the way the First World War started. It is not a very good way to go about it. In other words, there are other issues in the world. There's North Korea. There is the war on terrorism. The link between the war on Iraq and the war on terrorism has not been properly made.
DOBBS: I think a direct link, a causal direct link, I think you're absolutely right. In terms of the threat posed by Saddam Hussein, I think that's something over which we are watching a great argument. You're not suggesting, however though, are you, George? that this government and other governments cannot deal effectively with the crisis in North Korea, the war against terror, and Iraq should the president make that decision to prosecute?
SOROS: I think that there are certain priorities and we got our priorities wrong by pushing too hard on this particular issue, when for instance, as I say, North Korea is a much more serious threat because they not only do they have nuclear weapons but they're known proliferators.
DOBBS: Does it surprise you and disturb you that the principal powers in the region, that is China, South Korea, and certainly Russia, have not asserted their influence with North Korea, knowing the jeopardy and the risks that are involved?
SOROS: No. I think that they are all involved, but the North Koreans want to talk to the United States. And we - this is a crisis that actually was precipitated by President Bush, who established the discontinuity with the Clinton administration's agreed framework. We were actually containing North Korea, not perfectly, but we were containing it. And then - and North Korea - the president of South Korea, came here and asked President Bush to endorse his sunshine policy. And that policy was working. The North Koreans actually want to come in from the cold. They're anxious.
DOBBS: And so that's why they're testing missiles...
SOROS: Because the only thing they have got - the only thing they have got is the threat.
DOBBS: George, I respect...
SOROS: It's a collapsing system and...
DOBBS: I respect you immensely, George. To say that the North Koreans are not culpable for their own actions...
SOROS: I didn't say that, I didn't say that.
DOBBS: And in making that decision and alerting the world to the fact that they have restarted their enriched weapons plant is a bit - I think perhaps overstates it.
SOROS: No, no.
DOBBS: May I ask you this, sir? Do you find it interesting and do you yourself believe that George Bush, President George Bush, deserves great credit for moving the inspections process and carrying the diplomacy over the past six months?
SOROS: Very much so. You needed that kind of force to move the United Nations. We could have a bloodless victory if we handled it right.
DOBBS: George Soros, we're out of time. As always, love talking with you. Come on back any time.
SOROS: Very good.
DOBBS: ... some more.
SOROS: All right.
DOBBS: Thanks, George.
DOBBS: Coming up next, we're waiting for a police news conference about the amazing, happy discovery of Elizabeth Smart, the Utah teenager who was found earlier today, missing for just about nine months. The news conference scheduled to begin in just about 20 minutes.
And then, a case of life imitating art. Mike Farrell earned his fame on the anti-war show "MASH". Now he's leading a celebrity protest against a war with Saddam Hussein and we're delighted to say he is our guest coming up next. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Well, actor Mike Farrell has been an outspoken critic of the possible war with Iraq. In fact, he organized and now leads a group called Artists United to Win Without War. The group sent a letter to President Bush protesting war with Iraq and presented the United Nations with an anti-war petition signed by more than a million people.
Mike Farrell is not any stranger to political activism. He serves as the chair of Death Penalty Focus, human rights watch in California. He served a four-year term as a member of California's Commission on Judicial Performance. And, of course, you know him as the Captain B.J. Honeycutt on the popular television series "MASH" and joins us tonight from our studios in Los Angeles.
Mike, good to have you here.
MIKE FARRELL, ARTISTS UNITED TO WIN WITHOUT WAR: Thank you, Lou. It's nice to be with you.
DOBBS: The issue of war and peace is always a profound one. We have a situation now where the United Nations has approved a resolution, 1441. It now appears that at least a majority of the Security Council, at least according to the count we're receiving tonight, will approve another resolution against Iraq. Why do you oppose military action against Iraq?
FARRELL: Well, I think what we are failing to see is that the administration has chartered a course a long time ago to go to war against Iraq and made that very clear. Has gone to the United Nations I think as a sort of reluctant step. And has found itself in a morass of international complications when it really simply wants to go in, wipe out Saddam Hussein and leave.
Our view, my view, and certainly the view of many people around the world, is that the United Nations, having mandated the inspections system, we really ought to be joining the international expression of concern about Saddam Hussein and supporting these inspectors who are arguably succeeding in the task of disarming Saddam Hussein.
You know, Hans Blix has indicated that they are making progress, that they need a matter of months not years to complete their task. Mohammed ElBaradei has suggested that there is no evidence, contrary to the Bush administration's early suggestions, that they have either weapons of mass -- either nuclear weapons or the capacity to develop such weapons.
DOBBS: As you know, Mike...
FARRELL: So I think the point is that the president has said that war is the last resort, but he hasn't acted as though he really believes that. And that the various steps taken, that can be taken up to and before we launch a full scale attack, really need to be fully exhausted.
DOBBS: You know, we're looking at a poll that's been put under the screen here and I want to reference to it because it's unlikely that you're seeing it and I think it's fair that you do see it.
A recent CNN poll showing 87 percent of adults not swayed by actors. My guess is you're not swayed by polls. Am I right?
FARRELL: Well, you know, those polls are an interesting one. I can't imagine anybody being asked by a pollster, do you, when you're making serious decisions, do you let celebrities color those decisions? And of course, the answer's going to be no whether they do or not.
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: .. are you persuaded by plumbers, news anchors and so forth when they vote on an issue. It's a job. It's an awfully good job, I will admit. But I don't see personally any problem with actors or anybody else expressing their opinion and being an activist and you certainly are doing both.
FARRELL: Thank you.
DOBBS: And in a serious vein, the issue of a resolution passed 15 to nothing, the president has been accused of being a unilateralist. He has been a multilateralist, certainly since September 12, six months. That resolution calls very specifically -- this is the expression of the intent by the United Nations.
I don't understand at this point why there would be any suggestion that the president here is not conforming to world expression through the United Nations.
FARRELL: Well, I think, Lou, to take exception to your point, the president has demonstrated anything but multilateral and/or international conformity. The president has demonstrated in any number of areas that there is this American exceptionalism that simply will not tolerate the trifling concerns of people in the other countries and the world.
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: I'm sorry. When you said trifling, Mike, I had to think of one thing. Approximately a $25 billion package to Turkey for basing troops doesn't seem so trifling. But...
FARRELL: Well, hardly trifling, I agree. But that's the -- this is the -- this process trying to develop what I would think of as the coalition of the bought. The idea that we can disdain the decades- long, hundreds of years long relationships with of some of our major allies over time and that they can come into incredible disrespect has been demonstrated by not only the administration, but people in this country as a result of their unwillingness to allow us to go to war. Seems to me that this suggests quite the reverse from your point.
DOBBS: Thirteen nations in Europe are supporting the United Nations and supporting U.S.-British-led action against Saddam Hussein. Only seven are not. We have that resolution, 1441, that talks about grave consequences, references of it being a final measure on the matter.
Doesn't the president deserve great credit, and this is the same question I asked George Soros earlier, doesn't he at least deserve great credit for bringing this process, these inspections, to this point at least by his critics?
FARRELL: If, in fact, the president's intention by massing forces on the Iraqi border and bankrupting our country in preparing for a war, and I overstate I understand, but spending huge amounts of money that could be better spent in other ways to prepare for war and disrespecting significant long-hailed relationship in the world and arm-twisting a number of nations to get in line who are not lending troops or weapons or money to this effort, if the president's effort has all gone to ensuring that Saddam Hussein minds the mandate of the United Nations and disarms as a result of this action, then it's a master stroke and I congratulate him.
However, unfortunately, I don't believe the evidence of the writings of some of the people in his administration and/or his own statements suggest that that's the case. I think the case is that the president intended a long time ago to try to find a way to slip Iraq and his concerns about Saddam Hussein into the war on terrorism and has done a terrible job of providing evidence to support that. And as a result is now finding himself in a very uncomfortable situation in which his arrogance and I believe the arrogance of the administration's position has caused rupture in significant relationships across the world that we will rue later on.
DOBBS: Arrogance?
FARRELL: Arrogance, yes.
DOBBS: Is there shared arrogance?
Would you give the same charge to the French, the Germans, who by breaking unity on the Security Council, one could argue that they have prolonged, have disrupted the pressure on Saddam Hussein and have given him reason to hope that he would not disarm?
Would you criticize them as well for arrogance?
FARRELL: I don't believe that's the result of the French or the German or the Russian action or the Chinese action for that matter. I think, in fact, what they have said was they want a very stringent and detailed steps that will be -- must be met by Saddam Hussein. What they are arguing is it's not necessary to spend the lives and blood of tens of thousands of Iraqi civilians and perhaps god knows how many of our own American troops in the process that may be able to be resolved peacefully through the continued use and support of the inspections regime. Including proper and appropriate support by U.S. intelligence.
You know, probably you're aware, Lou, that the CBS report recently said that some of the inspectors have said that the intelligence provided by the United States is, and I quote, "garbage." And that they're being sent on wild goose chases when their job could well be done if it would simply be supported by U.S. intelligence.
DOBBS: Mike, I apologize. We have to wrap here. We thank you for taking time to share your views with us. And I've got to say this because we're putting this up under saying another survey under you. I'm just going to say it's not my view at all. I think you're entitled to have an opinion. In fact, that's what makes the country work.
FARRELL: One doesn't check in one's citizenship credentials because one achieves a certain amount of success in our world.
DOBBS: Come back soon. You and I have had two entirely civilized conversations. Maybe we can yell at each other next time. Good to have you.
FARRELL: Thank you very much, nice to see you.
DOBBS: Mike Farrell.
Another Enron scandal has been uncovered. Two Enron executives today indicted over what was once called project Braveheart. That story coming right up. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Two Enron executives today indicted. Federal prosecutors charged Kevin Howard and Michael Krautz with generating false earnings. The men, who are still employed by Enron, were charged with securities fraud and making false statements to the FBI. Enron credited the venture for more than $100 million in phony profits. There are now seven Enron executives who have been criminally charged.
On Wall Street today, stocks closed slightly higher following two losing sessions. The Dow today gained 28 points. The Nasdaq rose almost 8. And a reminder tonight, we're continuing our coverage of the amazing, happy discovery of the missing Salt Lake City teenager Elizabeth Smart. Salt Lake City Police to hold a news conference coming up in just about five or six minutes. And the Smart family will hold a news conference at about 8:30 Eastern time as well. CNN will continue coverage of this story and both of those events.
Coming up next, we are inundated with e-mail, reaction to Darryl Worley's appearance on our broadcast last night and his song "Have You Forgotten?". We'll share those thoughts next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Now your thoughts. We received a ton of e-mail about my interview last night with country music singer Darryl Worley and his song "Have You Forgotten?"
S. Simon of Ohio wrote, "Lou, thank you for your great courage in allowing Darryl to sing his song on your show. It makes me cry and is true to the bone for many people out in America."
Kevin Taylor in Pennsylvania wrote, "I am surprised at you, Lou. That song is so full of assumptions and falsehoods, I don't know where to begin. It assumes a connection between 9/11 and Iraq which is unproven. It assumes do not worry about bin Laden is a common sentiment. I have not heard that anywhere, any time."
And Lisa from California says, "How dare Darryl Worley accuse those of you us who do not support the war for forgetting 9/11. It was an awful, awful day and I remember." And Wendy Fulton, of Indiana, 'I believe this song should be played with pictures of terrorism more often in every country. Maybe then people everywhere will wake up and see why we need to fight terrorism around the world."
Those are your thoughts. Thanks for being kind of enough to share them with us.
That's MONEYLINE for all of here good night from New York.
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