Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Live Today

Interview With Joe Wilson

Aired March 20, 2003 - 11:55   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: Well, Secretary Rumsfeld left no doubt as to what might come next in his briefing a little less than an hour ago when he said that the force, the scope, and the scale is beyond what has ever been seen before. Back to Ambassador Joe Wilson now, who was one of the last U.S. diplomats to be face-to-face with Saddam Hussein. He joins us now from Washington this morning.
Mr. Ambassador, I wanted to concentrate on you with some of what was discussed at this news conference today when the Secretary of Defense was asked a number of questions about the fate of Saddam Hussein. We're going to put up on the screen on the left side of the screen an image of what was supposed to have been Saddam Hussein making an address once the military action got away -- had gotten underway and comparing that with an image from a previous public appearance. Help us understand the significant of the debate right now about whether indeed this is a body double or Saddam Hussein himself.

JOE WILSON, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO IRAQ: Well, Saddam Hussein has often had -- used body doubles in the past. And as you look at those two pictures, I suppose the question is, "Which on is the real Saddam Hussein?" The one who appeared last night or the one on the right of your screen? Now, I can tell you that in my meeting with Saddam Hussein in 1990, he was -- attended the meeting with about nine or ten of his key foreign service advisors -- foreign policy advisors, all of whom were really cowed in his presence.

That led me to conclude both by his self-confident demeanor and by the way he was treated by the people in the room on the Iraqi side of the delegation that it was the real Saddam Hussein that I was meeting. Now, that Saddam Hussein, and I've gone back and taken a look at the pictures from that meeting, did not have that mark on the left side of his -- of his face right next to his ear. And so that's always been one that I've looked at as something that is different from the Saddam Hussein of today from the one that I met, quite apart from the fact we've all aged 12 years, he hopefully has aged less well than I have.

ZAHN: A lot of people feel that way, Joe, although you're not doing so bad yourself.

Let me ask you this, though, and this is a critical question. The Secretary of Defense saying the damage assessment is pending of this complex that was hit last night, but there is guarded optimism that perhaps that air strike, which is a series of bunker busters followed by some cruise missiles, might have killed some members of the top Iraqi leadership. If that is the case and the intelligence it turns out -- if it ends up turning out that it was accurate, what does that mean about the fate of Saddam Hussein?

WILSON: Well, if some of the key leadership -- if, in fact, that was a house at which there were key leadership, the inner circle is going to be worried about how this information got in the hands of the Americans and there will be a lot of looking around and a lot of enhanced paranoia about the integrity of their own security system. If, however, it was a -- it was something that was not -- that where nobody was at, then it will have no effect at all. My guess is that the -- what I heard today was that it was on the list of sites to be hit. It just happened to be hit last night because they thought that Saddam and some of his senior leadership might be there. It's going to (UNINTELLIGIBLE) the waters around Saddam Hussein considerably. It'll make an already paranoid man even more paranoid, and Saddam has a tendency to lash out when these things happen and exact retribution when there is a breach in security like this. So, he may well be closer to going on the lamb and on the run as a consequence of last night.

ZAHN: Ambassador Wilson, as always -- actually we have a little more time to go on. I was struck when you listened to the Secretary of Defense about how some of what he said was meant for American consumption, but much of it was meant for Iraqi consumption basically telling the followers of Saddam Hussein not to follow through with these orders and that they would be treated in a fair way in the rebuilding process if they took these American leaflets seriously that are being dropped. In the end, how effective might that campaign be? We have seen the Kuwaiti police confirm today that 17 Iraqis crossed the border -- surrendered. They're now in police custody today.

WILSON: Well, I think, Paula, that there is a fair chance that most of the army will lay down its arms as the Americans march through. They will remember how devastating the defeat was 12 years ago, and probably will not want to be on the receiving end of American ordinance of that -- of that type again. Remember, 12 years ago we had a 39-day B-52 campaign around the clock, and anybody who's been on the receiving end of B-52 campaigns will tell you it is like being in a -- in a combination earthquake and waterfall for all the noise and all the movement that you feel. So it's likely that the regular army will lay down its arms.

The real question it seems to me is going to be how much damage is done on the way to Baghdad, both by Saddam and by the shock and awe strategy that's going to be employed by the Americans. You cannot drop the amount of ordnance that the Americans intend to drop in the next 48-72 hours without essentially traumatizing the entire population of Baghdad. It doesn't make any difference whether one or no Baghdadi is actually injured. Just the shock of the violence of this sort of campaign, I think, is going to have a major effect on the citizenry of Baghdad.

Then the question becomes whether or not Saddam's close fighters, the Special Republican Guard, the elite Republican Guard, the (UNINTELLIGIBLE), his intelligence services, and personal security services will be so shocked by the bombing campaign that they will either turn on him, or they too, will lay down their arms and desert; or whether or not they will fight with him to the bitter end. Now most of them have -- understand that their fate is tied to his fate. So I think we still have to assume that they will fight for him to the bitter end, even after Baghdad is hit with this barrage that's coming their way.

ZAHN: John -- Joe Wilson, we're going to have to leave it there. Thanks so much for joining us.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com







Aired March 20, 2003 - 11:55   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: Well, Secretary Rumsfeld left no doubt as to what might come next in his briefing a little less than an hour ago when he said that the force, the scope, and the scale is beyond what has ever been seen before. Back to Ambassador Joe Wilson now, who was one of the last U.S. diplomats to be face-to-face with Saddam Hussein. He joins us now from Washington this morning.
Mr. Ambassador, I wanted to concentrate on you with some of what was discussed at this news conference today when the Secretary of Defense was asked a number of questions about the fate of Saddam Hussein. We're going to put up on the screen on the left side of the screen an image of what was supposed to have been Saddam Hussein making an address once the military action got away -- had gotten underway and comparing that with an image from a previous public appearance. Help us understand the significant of the debate right now about whether indeed this is a body double or Saddam Hussein himself.

JOE WILSON, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO IRAQ: Well, Saddam Hussein has often had -- used body doubles in the past. And as you look at those two pictures, I suppose the question is, "Which on is the real Saddam Hussein?" The one who appeared last night or the one on the right of your screen? Now, I can tell you that in my meeting with Saddam Hussein in 1990, he was -- attended the meeting with about nine or ten of his key foreign service advisors -- foreign policy advisors, all of whom were really cowed in his presence.

That led me to conclude both by his self-confident demeanor and by the way he was treated by the people in the room on the Iraqi side of the delegation that it was the real Saddam Hussein that I was meeting. Now, that Saddam Hussein, and I've gone back and taken a look at the pictures from that meeting, did not have that mark on the left side of his -- of his face right next to his ear. And so that's always been one that I've looked at as something that is different from the Saddam Hussein of today from the one that I met, quite apart from the fact we've all aged 12 years, he hopefully has aged less well than I have.

ZAHN: A lot of people feel that way, Joe, although you're not doing so bad yourself.

Let me ask you this, though, and this is a critical question. The Secretary of Defense saying the damage assessment is pending of this complex that was hit last night, but there is guarded optimism that perhaps that air strike, which is a series of bunker busters followed by some cruise missiles, might have killed some members of the top Iraqi leadership. If that is the case and the intelligence it turns out -- if it ends up turning out that it was accurate, what does that mean about the fate of Saddam Hussein?

WILSON: Well, if some of the key leadership -- if, in fact, that was a house at which there were key leadership, the inner circle is going to be worried about how this information got in the hands of the Americans and there will be a lot of looking around and a lot of enhanced paranoia about the integrity of their own security system. If, however, it was a -- it was something that was not -- that where nobody was at, then it will have no effect at all. My guess is that the -- what I heard today was that it was on the list of sites to be hit. It just happened to be hit last night because they thought that Saddam and some of his senior leadership might be there. It's going to (UNINTELLIGIBLE) the waters around Saddam Hussein considerably. It'll make an already paranoid man even more paranoid, and Saddam has a tendency to lash out when these things happen and exact retribution when there is a breach in security like this. So, he may well be closer to going on the lamb and on the run as a consequence of last night.

ZAHN: Ambassador Wilson, as always -- actually we have a little more time to go on. I was struck when you listened to the Secretary of Defense about how some of what he said was meant for American consumption, but much of it was meant for Iraqi consumption basically telling the followers of Saddam Hussein not to follow through with these orders and that they would be treated in a fair way in the rebuilding process if they took these American leaflets seriously that are being dropped. In the end, how effective might that campaign be? We have seen the Kuwaiti police confirm today that 17 Iraqis crossed the border -- surrendered. They're now in police custody today.

WILSON: Well, I think, Paula, that there is a fair chance that most of the army will lay down its arms as the Americans march through. They will remember how devastating the defeat was 12 years ago, and probably will not want to be on the receiving end of American ordinance of that -- of that type again. Remember, 12 years ago we had a 39-day B-52 campaign around the clock, and anybody who's been on the receiving end of B-52 campaigns will tell you it is like being in a -- in a combination earthquake and waterfall for all the noise and all the movement that you feel. So it's likely that the regular army will lay down its arms.

The real question it seems to me is going to be how much damage is done on the way to Baghdad, both by Saddam and by the shock and awe strategy that's going to be employed by the Americans. You cannot drop the amount of ordnance that the Americans intend to drop in the next 48-72 hours without essentially traumatizing the entire population of Baghdad. It doesn't make any difference whether one or no Baghdadi is actually injured. Just the shock of the violence of this sort of campaign, I think, is going to have a major effect on the citizenry of Baghdad.

Then the question becomes whether or not Saddam's close fighters, the Special Republican Guard, the elite Republican Guard, the (UNINTELLIGIBLE), his intelligence services, and personal security services will be so shocked by the bombing campaign that they will either turn on him, or they too, will lay down their arms and desert; or whether or not they will fight with him to the bitter end. Now most of them have -- understand that their fate is tied to his fate. So I think we still have to assume that they will fight for him to the bitter end, even after Baghdad is hit with this barrage that's coming their way.

ZAHN: John -- Joe Wilson, we're going to have to leave it there. Thanks so much for joining us.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com