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American Morning
Strike on Iraq: Iraqis Capture American Soldiers
Aired March 23, 2003 - 11:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning. Welcome. 11:00 a.m. on the East Coast. 8:00 a.m. on the West. You're looking at a live picture of Baghdad, 7:00 p.m., there. Today is Sunday, March 23rd, the fourth day on the war in Iraq.
Good morning everyone, thanks so much for joining me. I'm Paula Zahn in New York. Joining me Bill Hemmer in Kuwait City and Leon Harris in Atlanta who gets things started with a look at what is happening this hour. Leon?
LEON HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: All right, Paula, here are the latest developments at this hour. US Marines are facing heavy resistance near the Iraqi city of An Nasiriyah. CNN's Alessio Vinci reports the Marines have suffered some casualties. They entered a town after Iraqi forces ambushed a military convoy bringing supplies to coalition forces in the region there.
CNN's Walter Rodgers reports an artillery barrage aimed at the 3- 7th Cavalry has left a soldier wounded. He says that three shells landed about 75 yards away from the unit. Also, Rodgers says that US soldiers on a reconnaissance mission reported seeing members of the Iraqi Republican Guard herding women and children to military positions to use as human shields. That information from the military source.
A British military spokesman confirms that a Royal Air Force plane was shot down near the Kuwaiti border, and it was brought down by a Patriot missile. The crew of the Tornado GR4 aircraft is missing at this hour, and an investigation is now under way. Officials say the plane was returning from an operational mission.
The US army's investigating a deadly grenade attack on a unit of the 101st Airborne, and the suspected attacker is one of their own. One soldier was killed, and a dozen others were wounded. The suspect is now in custody and is being interrogated. He's accused of throwing live grenades into the tents of his fellow soldiers.
US Marines battled Iraqi forces at Umm Qasr with machine gun and tank fire. The firefight erupted when the Marines encountered a pocket of Iraqi resistance. The battle unfolded on live television earlier today. All ended when the Marines called in an air strike from a Harrier jet.
And putting a financial price tag on the war in Iraq. A report in today's "Washington Post" says that President Bush plans to ask Congress for about $80 billion to cover the costs of this military campaign. The Post says the details of the proposal could be presented as early as tomorrow.
And that's what we have from here in Atlanta. Let's go down to Paula in New York -- Paula.
ZAHN: Thanks so much, Leon. We're going to begin this hour's coverage of the war in Iraq with some breaking news out of the Pentagon. Let's go straight to Barbara Starr who's standing by. Barbara, what can you tell us about the latest on the information we just got about a half hour ago, confirmation of some missing soldiers, American soldiers in Southern Iraq?
BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Paula, what I can tell you is the news is not good for the US Military. Pentagon officials telling CNN just a few moments ago that they have now begun the process of notifying some families that US soldiers have been captured by Iraqi military forces and are being held as prisoners of war.
We do know that something around ten US soldiers attached to a maintenance unit in South Central Iraq apparently went astray earlier today. They strayed into an area. They were confronted by Iraqi military. We understand that some US soldiers were killed. Some were captured.
According to General Richard Myers, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, it is believed that it is something less than ten soldiers. But the Pentagon now confirming it is beginning to notify the families as it begins to understand the identities of the soldiers now being held by the Iraqis.
Just a few moments ago, General Myers, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, was in the hallway here by the press office in the Pentagon. Very grim-faced, he said to reporters, "this is just one more crime by the Iraqi regime." General Myers saying it was a violation of the Geneva Convention and what General Myers -- excuse me. What General Myers was referring to, what he was essentially making public knowledge by that statement, the reference to the Geneva convention is, there are photographs now of these American soldiers in captivity by the Iraqi forces. General Myers acknowledging that, making that statement that the Iraqis showing pictures of these Americans, he believes, is a violation of the Geneva Convention. Paula?
ZAHN: I guess not only do these pictures exist, Barbara, but apparently the Arab satellite network al Jazeera has been airing footage of some interviews with what the station identified as captured American prisoners. Did they acknowledge not only these photographs exist but perhaps there's some videotape lying around of these prisoners?
STARR: Yes, Paula. The Pentagon officials, I can tell you, here monitor al Jazeera and, in fact, that is exactly right. They have seen the videotape on al Jazeera. They have seen Americans, service members, stating their name and their residence, where they live in the United States, on Arab television. They tell us here they have every reason to believe that these soldiers now are prisoners of the Iraqis and underscoring what one defense official told us a few moments ago, the process of notifying families has begun.
What is so sensitive here is, they want to try and get to the families and let them know the status of their loved ones before they see it on television. But now that al Jazeera has aired this tape, it is believed that, of course, that the tape would clearly be shown very quickly in other western media outlets and it will be, of course, now that it is out there. Pentagon officials acknowledging that this information is beginning to spread very rapidly and they are being forthcoming in saying they are notifying the families. They are looking at the tape...
ZAHN: All right, Barbara, we've got to cut you off. Secretary Rumsfeld is speaking after a Sunday morning television appearance. Let's listen in, and we'll come back to you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There have been some in Basra so how do you -- do you think there has been any, like, troops?
DONALD RUMSFELD, UNITED STATES SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: I don't know what you're talking about.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mister Secretary, associations with Turkey and the possibility of allowing their troops into Iraq?
RUMSFELD: We've made no arrangements with Turkey for their troops to go into Iraq.
(CROSSTALK)
RUMSFELD: Folks, folks, folks, wait a minute. Look, we can do this for a minute or two, but I cannot listen to 16 people at once. And you have to show each other a little courtesy.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let's stick to the Turkish invasion into Northern Iraq. The German government threatened Turks to withdraw two missile crews if Turkey invades northern Iraq. Was this step, this diplomatic step, a severe help for the American cause? What do you think about the Berlin announcement to threaten Turkey?
RUMSFELD: I've not seen the announcement.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Secretary, Mister Secretary, "The Washington Post" reported that (UNINTELLIGIBLE) British airplanes.
RUMSFELD: It appears -- there's an investigation under way and it appears that there may have been a Patriot battery that struck a UK aircraft, and for whatever reason, the identification of friend and foe communication connection was not made, if that's the case. We don't know the facts. The facts are being investigated and we will know ground truth at some point.
(CROSSTALK)
RUMSFELD: Just a minute. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... reported that the al Qaeda biochemical weapons program is much more (UNINTELLIGIBLE) including cyanide and salmonella. Can you comment on this or what steps are you taking?
RUMSFELD: There is a good deal of intelligence about the al Qaeda involvement with various types of poisons, toxins and chemicals. And we hear it from others for the most part, and we have not -- the campaign's been going on for seven hours. And at some point in the period ahead, one would hope that we'd be able to have forces in places that they'll be able to know of certain knowledge what, in fact, the al Qaeda's been up to in Iraq.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mister Secretary, can I ask you a question about western Iraq?
RUMSFELD: You win. You win. This is the last question.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Can you confirm for us, have coalition troops taken over the areas in Western Iraq from which Iraq can fire scud missiles to Israel?
RUMSFELD: We have a good many forces in the west, and they are ranging across the entire western portion of Iraq. And we -- you never can be certain, but the hope and the prayer is that we will have successfully prevented the firing of any ballistic missiles from that portion of Iraq that could strike neighboring countries. I'm going.
(CROSSTALK)
ZAHN: It is hard to tell whether Secretary Rumsfeld addressed the issue of the reports of American troops being taken as prisoners of war by the Iraqis because we dipped into that as he was leaving one of those Sunday talk show appearances and reporters converged on him. Did clear up some confusion coming out of the border of Turkey and Iraq today when he said no arrangements have been made to allow Turkish troops to go into Iraq.
Let's quickly go back to Barbara Starr. Barbara, for the viewers that are just joining us, you've got to bring us up to date on what has been confirmed from the Pentagon about American prisoners of war. Go through that again because a lot of people might not have caught it at the top of the hour.
STARR: Let's go through it as we understand it, Paula. A US Army maintenance unit was operating somewhere in South Central Iraq earlier today. As we understand it, that unit strayed into an area that it should not have been in. It encountered Iraqi forces. As we understand it, some American service members were killed. The Pentagon now believes that some have been captured by Iraqi military forces, perhaps less than ten.
General Richard Myers acknowledged this publicly earlier this morning. He said that there were reports that somewhat less than ten Americans had been captured. To be as clear as we can, the Arab news channel al Jazeera has shown a tape that has been seen here at the Pentagon, of Americans, what is believed to be American soldiers stating their name and the place in the United States where they are from.
US officials here at the Pentagon say, based on what they have seen on al Jazeera, they do believe now that there are American soldiers in Iraqi military hands, and they are beginning to notify families on the basis of the soldiers that did appear on this al Jazeera tape. Paula?
ZAHN: So once again, Barbara, they say some were captured, some were killed, but we don't know the numbers.
STARR: We do not have exact numbers. As best the US Military can figure out right now, they do not have an exact number. They believe somewhere around ten one way or the other.
ZAHN: All right, Barbara, stay with us. We have to pay attention to what's unfolding in Baghdad right now. We see tracer fire. Let's listen in.
We have reached a lull in what was a heavy barrage of anti- aircraft fire in Baghdad. We have talked so much over the last couple of days about American officials saying they have successfully degraded the radar system, but even they have acknowledged it will be many days before they successfully degrade the anti-aircraft radar system.
General Grange joins us from CNN center. General Grange, I'm looking at four quadrants of the screen here, I have yet to see any explosions. That doesn't mean anything because we're looking at pretty sliver pictures of Baghdad. But let's talk about what we've seen over the last couple of nights when the bombing has gotten under way. We have seen bombing preceded by anti-aircraft fire, right?
GENERAL DAVID GRANGE, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Absolutely. It could be that the Iraqi radar systems or other early warning devices have stated, announced, alerted that coalition aircraft are about to strike. Or they could be striking outside of Baghdad and other regions in the country, and so that they just go ahead and start firing themselves, or alert themselves right there in Baghdad, whether they're being hit or not.
ZAHN: How sophisticated is the Iraqi system?
GRANGE: The Iraqis have some sophisticated systems. I believe that many have been degraded, and I think a lot of them now are tied together loosely, with the ability they have left, with minimal command and control.
ZAHN: And when you say with minimum command and control, does that mean they just pick out segments in the sky to hit and they just hope they hit something once they fire off the anti-aircraft fire?
GRANGE: Well, I believe that a lot of the units if they still maintain a discipline have a quadrant or a sector, as you said, in the sky that they would engage aircraft in. And so -- and that's past -- the city has broken down, their altitude over the city has broken down into different quadrants.
ZAHN: And we understand that there is stuff that comes in from a lower angle, some that comes in from a higher angle. Do you want to explain that to us?
GRANGE: Well, a lot of times when you see the anti-aircraft fire, all you see is that tracer, one in seven mix, one in four mix, depending on the type of weapon. Sometimes you only see a flash and that may be an air burst of a larger millimeter type anti-aircraft weapons system and some is low angle fire for lower attacking -- against lower attacking aircraft and some is higher altitudes for higher flying airplanes.
ZAHN: General Grange, if you stand by, we're just going to listen to the natural sound coming out of there to see if we hear any sirens. Then I want to get straight back to you.
GRANGE: All right.
ZAHN: Okay. I can't discern these sirens. Can you hear anything, General Grange?
GRANGE: Not really. It's really hard to say. It doesn't look like there's much going on downtown Baghdad right now.
ZAHN: Let me ask you this, there were a number of reports suggesting witnesses hearing explosions earlier today. We spoke with a man who works at the International Red Cross, working in Baghdad, and what he described is hearing explosions that seemed to be -- come at the same time he saw large columns of black smoke rising. He said from 12 different points in the city and in his belief, that the Iraqis had dug some trenches, oil trenches and lighted them on fire to obscure allied aircraft's aiming devices or their ability to target Baghdad.
Describe to us what that would do. It doesn't affect satellite- guided weapons, does it?
GRANGE: Well, some of the systems that the coalition forces have, it will not affect it. The obscuration that they're putting up in the sky would usually affect more close in combat strikes on a battlefield instead of precision strikes against point targets that you see around Baghdad. Because they're trying to only hit certain targets to keep the collateral damage down on the civilian infrastructure, so I don't think it will do much in Baghdad, Paula.
ZAHN: Let's talk more about the kind of precision-guided weapons used. We got a briefing from the Royal Air Force earlier today and the captain, John Lines, was describing that during "Desert Storm," ten percent of the weapons that were used were precision weapons. In this case it is 90 percent.
GRANGE: Yes.
ZAHN: How staggering is that?
GRANGE: For ten years or 12 years of time since the war, that's quite staggering, quite an improvement on the inventory of munitions. And, again, it's not only to have munitions that are more effective against enemy forces or an enemy target, but again, also to reduce collateral damage and civilian death, and so it's a humanitarian reason for it as well as the effectiveness of the munition itself.
ZAHN: General Grange, the other thing the captain touched on earlier today was a weapon called the Stormshadow, which, he said, allows the people that are launching them to go deeper into the ground, penetrate the ground much deeper and take out command and control centers. Can you tell us a little bit more about this weapon and how often we think -- has it even been used yet?
GRANGE: Yes. I'm sure it's been used and, of course, the US has the same type of weaponry. It was used in Afghanistan. It's being used in Iraq, and the penetrating munitions. And the idea is because a lot of the enemy forces that we faced in Afghanistan as well as in Iraq right now have burrowed deeper and deeper into subterranean command centers. And so, the idea is to penetrate the concrete and dirt and not have an explosion. It is a delayed explosion.
So you get down to what you really want to incapacitate, which may be the communications, the command and control, the communication cables, whatever the case may be. And so a lot of sophistication has gone into those penetrating-type munitions.
ZAHN: General Grange, please stand by. We're going to get back to that live shot once again in Baghdad. I don't make any tracer fire out at this moment, but let's pause for a second and take in this picture, and then I'll get back to you.
Okay, General Grange that could very well be wind. It's really hard to discern from the audio there.
Let's talk a little bit more, when this next wave of air attacks comes, how they will happen. Captain John Lines of the British air force, Royal Air Force, basically saying ten percent of the sorties flown so far have been by the Royal Air Force, the rest done by American planes.
But he talked about this integrated system between the British and Americans, and he said basically we can control them at some points, they can control us. We escort each other. We fuel each other. Describe to us how you expect this relationship or this teamwork to work from here on out.
GRANGE: Well, there isn't a finer relationship among allies than Great Britain and the United States just because of the history of supporting each other in conflict or peacekeeping operations or in humanitarian assistance. And so a lot of the techniques and procedures are very much the same.
And what he means -- the commander means by some Brits work for the US at times, US work for the British. What that means is that at times a flight lead may have a mix of aircraft from both nations, or it may be British strike aircraft getting support from American AWACS or vice versa. Or American fighters may refuel off of British tankers, and so because they have a commonality of procedures and technology for, let's say, refueling, they're able to do that.
And something this big, this complicated, the synchronization involved, you have to have allies that have done this together multiple times in training, as well as in previous operations, and so that's what you're seeing here from the commander's brief, that cooperation in working together.
ZAHN: Hope you're going to be patient with us. We'd love for you to stand by. We need to get to some breaking news out of the Pentagon.
We pause, one more time, to look at this picture of downtown Baghdad in what appears to be a lull in that heavy barrage of anti- aircraft fire that we saw, just about 11 minutes ago. Let's listen, then I'll very quickly go to the Pentagon.
STARR: Paula, the news here hasn't changed in the last several minutes. US officials saying they do now acknowledge they are beginning to notify families of what they believe are American POWs now being held by Iraqi military.
Let's walk through what we do know about this incident. Earlier today, apparently, a US Army maintenance unit was moving through Southern Iraq. It strayed. It came into contact with an Iraqi military unit. There was some fighting. Some Americans killed. Some Americans captured.
We have acknowledged, we do know that the Arab news channel al Jazeera has a tape of some Americans apparently being interviewed, interrogated by Iraqis. That tape has now been shown to millions of people around the world who get al Jazeera television. Pentagon officials here acknowledging they have seen the tape, they have seen some identifications of some of the Americans they believe are being held, and they are beginning to notify families on that basis. They don't know at this point, or are not telling us, exactly how many Americans involved. They believe something less than ten.
Now, general Richard Myers, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, as we said earlier, was in the hallway here in the press quarter, in the Pentagon, just a few moments ago, very grim-faced. He said that this was one more crime by the Iraqi regime, and said that this was a violation of the Geneva Convention for the Americans to be shown in this fashion. But information at this point, Paula, is very closely held here at the Pentagon, and we're simply going to continue to report the story, see what else we can find out and let you know.
ZAHN: Barbara, any of us hearing for the first time are just sickened by the details you've just shared with us. I know this is really fresh news out of the Pentagon, but did you get any reaction beyond what General Myers said on an emotional level about this being one more crime by the Iraqis? STARR: Well, officials here are very grim about all of this. Military officials had warned for days that this would not be, to use their word a cakewalk operation, that they had yet to encounter the stiffest forces of the Iraqi regime, that as the military -- as the ground force moved further into Iraq, they expected more opposition. They were prepared for it, but I suspect they were not prepared, it's very difficult to say anyone is prepared to see American POWs.
ZAHN: Barbara, you talk about this having happened in South Central Iraq. Do we know what -- where they were close to? Were they close to Nasiriyah, anywhere near that?
STARR: We don't have a firm location on this event. We do know from our reporters in the field, Alessio Vinci, that there had been very fierce fighting around Nasiriyah earlier today, people come -- US military coming under enemy fire. There have been a number of reports of sporadic fighting across the region, but no specific location being offered yet on where this incident took place.
Again, it was apparently a US Army maintenance unit that had gone into the field, probably to repair some equipment, they apparently strayed somewhere they should not have -- they should not have gone or they didn't know that they shouldn't have gone, and came under enemy fire.
ZAHN: When you say they might have strayed into an area they should not have gone, I'm not sure exactly what that means.
STARR: Well, let me try and be more clear, Paula. They perhaps had no knowledge, advance knowledge that there were Iraqi forces in that area, and what we don't know is the size of the Iraqi force that may have launched the attack against them.
This is a very difficult battlefield. The military, of course, has a great ability to see large Iraqi troop formations, see how they're equipped, see how they're maneuvering. But what's always difficult in any battlefield is when you begin to encounter very small groups of enemy forces, hard to see, hard to see how they're maneuvering, hard to see them coming at you. So now, in retrospect it is said this maintenance unit strayed, but certainly, they must have had no knowledge, one can only assume, that they were about to run into some sort of Iraqi military unit.
ZAHN: Barbara, going back to this videotape that the Pentagon now has had a chance to look at. Have they characterized for you what they saw on this tape? There are reports that perhaps some of the American soldiers in the tape appeared to be injured. Is there any more detail they gave you?
STARR: Not at this time. What they are looking at on the tape, as quickly as they can, we understand, is the identities of the soldiers. They know here at the Pentagon that al Jazeera is widely watched around the world. They know that these identities are going to come out very, very quickly, and what they want to do is try and identify the soldiers from the tape, if they can, and notify the families as quickly as they can. Officials telling us, that is the process under way right now. Trying to notify family members just as quickly as they can.
ZAHN: That's kind of a story that sends chills up our collective spines here. Barbara, please stand by.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired March 23, 2003 - 11:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning. Welcome. 11:00 a.m. on the East Coast. 8:00 a.m. on the West. You're looking at a live picture of Baghdad, 7:00 p.m., there. Today is Sunday, March 23rd, the fourth day on the war in Iraq.
Good morning everyone, thanks so much for joining me. I'm Paula Zahn in New York. Joining me Bill Hemmer in Kuwait City and Leon Harris in Atlanta who gets things started with a look at what is happening this hour. Leon?
LEON HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: All right, Paula, here are the latest developments at this hour. US Marines are facing heavy resistance near the Iraqi city of An Nasiriyah. CNN's Alessio Vinci reports the Marines have suffered some casualties. They entered a town after Iraqi forces ambushed a military convoy bringing supplies to coalition forces in the region there.
CNN's Walter Rodgers reports an artillery barrage aimed at the 3- 7th Cavalry has left a soldier wounded. He says that three shells landed about 75 yards away from the unit. Also, Rodgers says that US soldiers on a reconnaissance mission reported seeing members of the Iraqi Republican Guard herding women and children to military positions to use as human shields. That information from the military source.
A British military spokesman confirms that a Royal Air Force plane was shot down near the Kuwaiti border, and it was brought down by a Patriot missile. The crew of the Tornado GR4 aircraft is missing at this hour, and an investigation is now under way. Officials say the plane was returning from an operational mission.
The US army's investigating a deadly grenade attack on a unit of the 101st Airborne, and the suspected attacker is one of their own. One soldier was killed, and a dozen others were wounded. The suspect is now in custody and is being interrogated. He's accused of throwing live grenades into the tents of his fellow soldiers.
US Marines battled Iraqi forces at Umm Qasr with machine gun and tank fire. The firefight erupted when the Marines encountered a pocket of Iraqi resistance. The battle unfolded on live television earlier today. All ended when the Marines called in an air strike from a Harrier jet.
And putting a financial price tag on the war in Iraq. A report in today's "Washington Post" says that President Bush plans to ask Congress for about $80 billion to cover the costs of this military campaign. The Post says the details of the proposal could be presented as early as tomorrow.
And that's what we have from here in Atlanta. Let's go down to Paula in New York -- Paula.
ZAHN: Thanks so much, Leon. We're going to begin this hour's coverage of the war in Iraq with some breaking news out of the Pentagon. Let's go straight to Barbara Starr who's standing by. Barbara, what can you tell us about the latest on the information we just got about a half hour ago, confirmation of some missing soldiers, American soldiers in Southern Iraq?
BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Paula, what I can tell you is the news is not good for the US Military. Pentagon officials telling CNN just a few moments ago that they have now begun the process of notifying some families that US soldiers have been captured by Iraqi military forces and are being held as prisoners of war.
We do know that something around ten US soldiers attached to a maintenance unit in South Central Iraq apparently went astray earlier today. They strayed into an area. They were confronted by Iraqi military. We understand that some US soldiers were killed. Some were captured.
According to General Richard Myers, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, it is believed that it is something less than ten soldiers. But the Pentagon now confirming it is beginning to notify the families as it begins to understand the identities of the soldiers now being held by the Iraqis.
Just a few moments ago, General Myers, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, was in the hallway here by the press office in the Pentagon. Very grim-faced, he said to reporters, "this is just one more crime by the Iraqi regime." General Myers saying it was a violation of the Geneva Convention and what General Myers -- excuse me. What General Myers was referring to, what he was essentially making public knowledge by that statement, the reference to the Geneva convention is, there are photographs now of these American soldiers in captivity by the Iraqi forces. General Myers acknowledging that, making that statement that the Iraqis showing pictures of these Americans, he believes, is a violation of the Geneva Convention. Paula?
ZAHN: I guess not only do these pictures exist, Barbara, but apparently the Arab satellite network al Jazeera has been airing footage of some interviews with what the station identified as captured American prisoners. Did they acknowledge not only these photographs exist but perhaps there's some videotape lying around of these prisoners?
STARR: Yes, Paula. The Pentagon officials, I can tell you, here monitor al Jazeera and, in fact, that is exactly right. They have seen the videotape on al Jazeera. They have seen Americans, service members, stating their name and their residence, where they live in the United States, on Arab television. They tell us here they have every reason to believe that these soldiers now are prisoners of the Iraqis and underscoring what one defense official told us a few moments ago, the process of notifying families has begun.
What is so sensitive here is, they want to try and get to the families and let them know the status of their loved ones before they see it on television. But now that al Jazeera has aired this tape, it is believed that, of course, that the tape would clearly be shown very quickly in other western media outlets and it will be, of course, now that it is out there. Pentagon officials acknowledging that this information is beginning to spread very rapidly and they are being forthcoming in saying they are notifying the families. They are looking at the tape...
ZAHN: All right, Barbara, we've got to cut you off. Secretary Rumsfeld is speaking after a Sunday morning television appearance. Let's listen in, and we'll come back to you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There have been some in Basra so how do you -- do you think there has been any, like, troops?
DONALD RUMSFELD, UNITED STATES SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: I don't know what you're talking about.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mister Secretary, associations with Turkey and the possibility of allowing their troops into Iraq?
RUMSFELD: We've made no arrangements with Turkey for their troops to go into Iraq.
(CROSSTALK)
RUMSFELD: Folks, folks, folks, wait a minute. Look, we can do this for a minute or two, but I cannot listen to 16 people at once. And you have to show each other a little courtesy.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let's stick to the Turkish invasion into Northern Iraq. The German government threatened Turks to withdraw two missile crews if Turkey invades northern Iraq. Was this step, this diplomatic step, a severe help for the American cause? What do you think about the Berlin announcement to threaten Turkey?
RUMSFELD: I've not seen the announcement.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Secretary, Mister Secretary, "The Washington Post" reported that (UNINTELLIGIBLE) British airplanes.
RUMSFELD: It appears -- there's an investigation under way and it appears that there may have been a Patriot battery that struck a UK aircraft, and for whatever reason, the identification of friend and foe communication connection was not made, if that's the case. We don't know the facts. The facts are being investigated and we will know ground truth at some point.
(CROSSTALK)
RUMSFELD: Just a minute. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... reported that the al Qaeda biochemical weapons program is much more (UNINTELLIGIBLE) including cyanide and salmonella. Can you comment on this or what steps are you taking?
RUMSFELD: There is a good deal of intelligence about the al Qaeda involvement with various types of poisons, toxins and chemicals. And we hear it from others for the most part, and we have not -- the campaign's been going on for seven hours. And at some point in the period ahead, one would hope that we'd be able to have forces in places that they'll be able to know of certain knowledge what, in fact, the al Qaeda's been up to in Iraq.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mister Secretary, can I ask you a question about western Iraq?
RUMSFELD: You win. You win. This is the last question.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Can you confirm for us, have coalition troops taken over the areas in Western Iraq from which Iraq can fire scud missiles to Israel?
RUMSFELD: We have a good many forces in the west, and they are ranging across the entire western portion of Iraq. And we -- you never can be certain, but the hope and the prayer is that we will have successfully prevented the firing of any ballistic missiles from that portion of Iraq that could strike neighboring countries. I'm going.
(CROSSTALK)
ZAHN: It is hard to tell whether Secretary Rumsfeld addressed the issue of the reports of American troops being taken as prisoners of war by the Iraqis because we dipped into that as he was leaving one of those Sunday talk show appearances and reporters converged on him. Did clear up some confusion coming out of the border of Turkey and Iraq today when he said no arrangements have been made to allow Turkish troops to go into Iraq.
Let's quickly go back to Barbara Starr. Barbara, for the viewers that are just joining us, you've got to bring us up to date on what has been confirmed from the Pentagon about American prisoners of war. Go through that again because a lot of people might not have caught it at the top of the hour.
STARR: Let's go through it as we understand it, Paula. A US Army maintenance unit was operating somewhere in South Central Iraq earlier today. As we understand it, that unit strayed into an area that it should not have been in. It encountered Iraqi forces. As we understand it, some American service members were killed. The Pentagon now believes that some have been captured by Iraqi military forces, perhaps less than ten.
General Richard Myers acknowledged this publicly earlier this morning. He said that there were reports that somewhat less than ten Americans had been captured. To be as clear as we can, the Arab news channel al Jazeera has shown a tape that has been seen here at the Pentagon, of Americans, what is believed to be American soldiers stating their name and the place in the United States where they are from.
US officials here at the Pentagon say, based on what they have seen on al Jazeera, they do believe now that there are American soldiers in Iraqi military hands, and they are beginning to notify families on the basis of the soldiers that did appear on this al Jazeera tape. Paula?
ZAHN: So once again, Barbara, they say some were captured, some were killed, but we don't know the numbers.
STARR: We do not have exact numbers. As best the US Military can figure out right now, they do not have an exact number. They believe somewhere around ten one way or the other.
ZAHN: All right, Barbara, stay with us. We have to pay attention to what's unfolding in Baghdad right now. We see tracer fire. Let's listen in.
We have reached a lull in what was a heavy barrage of anti- aircraft fire in Baghdad. We have talked so much over the last couple of days about American officials saying they have successfully degraded the radar system, but even they have acknowledged it will be many days before they successfully degrade the anti-aircraft radar system.
General Grange joins us from CNN center. General Grange, I'm looking at four quadrants of the screen here, I have yet to see any explosions. That doesn't mean anything because we're looking at pretty sliver pictures of Baghdad. But let's talk about what we've seen over the last couple of nights when the bombing has gotten under way. We have seen bombing preceded by anti-aircraft fire, right?
GENERAL DAVID GRANGE, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Absolutely. It could be that the Iraqi radar systems or other early warning devices have stated, announced, alerted that coalition aircraft are about to strike. Or they could be striking outside of Baghdad and other regions in the country, and so that they just go ahead and start firing themselves, or alert themselves right there in Baghdad, whether they're being hit or not.
ZAHN: How sophisticated is the Iraqi system?
GRANGE: The Iraqis have some sophisticated systems. I believe that many have been degraded, and I think a lot of them now are tied together loosely, with the ability they have left, with minimal command and control.
ZAHN: And when you say with minimum command and control, does that mean they just pick out segments in the sky to hit and they just hope they hit something once they fire off the anti-aircraft fire?
GRANGE: Well, I believe that a lot of the units if they still maintain a discipline have a quadrant or a sector, as you said, in the sky that they would engage aircraft in. And so -- and that's past -- the city has broken down, their altitude over the city has broken down into different quadrants.
ZAHN: And we understand that there is stuff that comes in from a lower angle, some that comes in from a higher angle. Do you want to explain that to us?
GRANGE: Well, a lot of times when you see the anti-aircraft fire, all you see is that tracer, one in seven mix, one in four mix, depending on the type of weapon. Sometimes you only see a flash and that may be an air burst of a larger millimeter type anti-aircraft weapons system and some is low angle fire for lower attacking -- against lower attacking aircraft and some is higher altitudes for higher flying airplanes.
ZAHN: General Grange, if you stand by, we're just going to listen to the natural sound coming out of there to see if we hear any sirens. Then I want to get straight back to you.
GRANGE: All right.
ZAHN: Okay. I can't discern these sirens. Can you hear anything, General Grange?
GRANGE: Not really. It's really hard to say. It doesn't look like there's much going on downtown Baghdad right now.
ZAHN: Let me ask you this, there were a number of reports suggesting witnesses hearing explosions earlier today. We spoke with a man who works at the International Red Cross, working in Baghdad, and what he described is hearing explosions that seemed to be -- come at the same time he saw large columns of black smoke rising. He said from 12 different points in the city and in his belief, that the Iraqis had dug some trenches, oil trenches and lighted them on fire to obscure allied aircraft's aiming devices or their ability to target Baghdad.
Describe to us what that would do. It doesn't affect satellite- guided weapons, does it?
GRANGE: Well, some of the systems that the coalition forces have, it will not affect it. The obscuration that they're putting up in the sky would usually affect more close in combat strikes on a battlefield instead of precision strikes against point targets that you see around Baghdad. Because they're trying to only hit certain targets to keep the collateral damage down on the civilian infrastructure, so I don't think it will do much in Baghdad, Paula.
ZAHN: Let's talk more about the kind of precision-guided weapons used. We got a briefing from the Royal Air Force earlier today and the captain, John Lines, was describing that during "Desert Storm," ten percent of the weapons that were used were precision weapons. In this case it is 90 percent.
GRANGE: Yes.
ZAHN: How staggering is that?
GRANGE: For ten years or 12 years of time since the war, that's quite staggering, quite an improvement on the inventory of munitions. And, again, it's not only to have munitions that are more effective against enemy forces or an enemy target, but again, also to reduce collateral damage and civilian death, and so it's a humanitarian reason for it as well as the effectiveness of the munition itself.
ZAHN: General Grange, the other thing the captain touched on earlier today was a weapon called the Stormshadow, which, he said, allows the people that are launching them to go deeper into the ground, penetrate the ground much deeper and take out command and control centers. Can you tell us a little bit more about this weapon and how often we think -- has it even been used yet?
GRANGE: Yes. I'm sure it's been used and, of course, the US has the same type of weaponry. It was used in Afghanistan. It's being used in Iraq, and the penetrating munitions. And the idea is because a lot of the enemy forces that we faced in Afghanistan as well as in Iraq right now have burrowed deeper and deeper into subterranean command centers. And so, the idea is to penetrate the concrete and dirt and not have an explosion. It is a delayed explosion.
So you get down to what you really want to incapacitate, which may be the communications, the command and control, the communication cables, whatever the case may be. And so a lot of sophistication has gone into those penetrating-type munitions.
ZAHN: General Grange, please stand by. We're going to get back to that live shot once again in Baghdad. I don't make any tracer fire out at this moment, but let's pause for a second and take in this picture, and then I'll get back to you.
Okay, General Grange that could very well be wind. It's really hard to discern from the audio there.
Let's talk a little bit more, when this next wave of air attacks comes, how they will happen. Captain John Lines of the British air force, Royal Air Force, basically saying ten percent of the sorties flown so far have been by the Royal Air Force, the rest done by American planes.
But he talked about this integrated system between the British and Americans, and he said basically we can control them at some points, they can control us. We escort each other. We fuel each other. Describe to us how you expect this relationship or this teamwork to work from here on out.
GRANGE: Well, there isn't a finer relationship among allies than Great Britain and the United States just because of the history of supporting each other in conflict or peacekeeping operations or in humanitarian assistance. And so a lot of the techniques and procedures are very much the same.
And what he means -- the commander means by some Brits work for the US at times, US work for the British. What that means is that at times a flight lead may have a mix of aircraft from both nations, or it may be British strike aircraft getting support from American AWACS or vice versa. Or American fighters may refuel off of British tankers, and so because they have a commonality of procedures and technology for, let's say, refueling, they're able to do that.
And something this big, this complicated, the synchronization involved, you have to have allies that have done this together multiple times in training, as well as in previous operations, and so that's what you're seeing here from the commander's brief, that cooperation in working together.
ZAHN: Hope you're going to be patient with us. We'd love for you to stand by. We need to get to some breaking news out of the Pentagon.
We pause, one more time, to look at this picture of downtown Baghdad in what appears to be a lull in that heavy barrage of anti- aircraft fire that we saw, just about 11 minutes ago. Let's listen, then I'll very quickly go to the Pentagon.
STARR: Paula, the news here hasn't changed in the last several minutes. US officials saying they do now acknowledge they are beginning to notify families of what they believe are American POWs now being held by Iraqi military.
Let's walk through what we do know about this incident. Earlier today, apparently, a US Army maintenance unit was moving through Southern Iraq. It strayed. It came into contact with an Iraqi military unit. There was some fighting. Some Americans killed. Some Americans captured.
We have acknowledged, we do know that the Arab news channel al Jazeera has a tape of some Americans apparently being interviewed, interrogated by Iraqis. That tape has now been shown to millions of people around the world who get al Jazeera television. Pentagon officials here acknowledging they have seen the tape, they have seen some identifications of some of the Americans they believe are being held, and they are beginning to notify families on that basis. They don't know at this point, or are not telling us, exactly how many Americans involved. They believe something less than ten.
Now, general Richard Myers, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, as we said earlier, was in the hallway here in the press quarter, in the Pentagon, just a few moments ago, very grim-faced. He said that this was one more crime by the Iraqi regime, and said that this was a violation of the Geneva Convention for the Americans to be shown in this fashion. But information at this point, Paula, is very closely held here at the Pentagon, and we're simply going to continue to report the story, see what else we can find out and let you know.
ZAHN: Barbara, any of us hearing for the first time are just sickened by the details you've just shared with us. I know this is really fresh news out of the Pentagon, but did you get any reaction beyond what General Myers said on an emotional level about this being one more crime by the Iraqis? STARR: Well, officials here are very grim about all of this. Military officials had warned for days that this would not be, to use their word a cakewalk operation, that they had yet to encounter the stiffest forces of the Iraqi regime, that as the military -- as the ground force moved further into Iraq, they expected more opposition. They were prepared for it, but I suspect they were not prepared, it's very difficult to say anyone is prepared to see American POWs.
ZAHN: Barbara, you talk about this having happened in South Central Iraq. Do we know what -- where they were close to? Were they close to Nasiriyah, anywhere near that?
STARR: We don't have a firm location on this event. We do know from our reporters in the field, Alessio Vinci, that there had been very fierce fighting around Nasiriyah earlier today, people come -- US military coming under enemy fire. There have been a number of reports of sporadic fighting across the region, but no specific location being offered yet on where this incident took place.
Again, it was apparently a US Army maintenance unit that had gone into the field, probably to repair some equipment, they apparently strayed somewhere they should not have -- they should not have gone or they didn't know that they shouldn't have gone, and came under enemy fire.
ZAHN: When you say they might have strayed into an area they should not have gone, I'm not sure exactly what that means.
STARR: Well, let me try and be more clear, Paula. They perhaps had no knowledge, advance knowledge that there were Iraqi forces in that area, and what we don't know is the size of the Iraqi force that may have launched the attack against them.
This is a very difficult battlefield. The military, of course, has a great ability to see large Iraqi troop formations, see how they're equipped, see how they're maneuvering. But what's always difficult in any battlefield is when you begin to encounter very small groups of enemy forces, hard to see, hard to see how they're maneuvering, hard to see them coming at you. So now, in retrospect it is said this maintenance unit strayed, but certainly, they must have had no knowledge, one can only assume, that they were about to run into some sort of Iraqi military unit.
ZAHN: Barbara, going back to this videotape that the Pentagon now has had a chance to look at. Have they characterized for you what they saw on this tape? There are reports that perhaps some of the American soldiers in the tape appeared to be injured. Is there any more detail they gave you?
STARR: Not at this time. What they are looking at on the tape, as quickly as they can, we understand, is the identities of the soldiers. They know here at the Pentagon that al Jazeera is widely watched around the world. They know that these identities are going to come out very, very quickly, and what they want to do is try and identify the soldiers from the tape, if they can, and notify the families as quickly as they can. Officials telling us, that is the process under way right now. Trying to notify family members just as quickly as they can.
ZAHN: That's kind of a story that sends chills up our collective spines here. Barbara, please stand by.
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