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CNN LOU DOBBS MONEYLINE
U.S. POWs Captured From Supply Convoy
Aired March 23, 2003 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, ANCHOR: President Bush today reminded America that this war is in the early days. And today, the advance continues in Iraq, but certainly not all of the news today was good.
We're going to turn now for the latest developments on the war in Iraq to CNN Center and Heidi Collins.
(NEWS BREAK)
DOBBS: Good evening.
In this hour, we are going to bring you up to date on the progress in the coalition's advance toward Baghdad. We're going to take a look at the strategic issues. We will be talking to two generals, CNN military analyst Don Shepperd and David Grange.
But first, to bring you up to date, Coalition military commanders say that U.S. troops have been involved in the heaviest fighting of the war so far. The fighting is taking place principally in and around the Southern Iraqi city of Nasiriyah. That is just northwest of Basra. Up to 10 coalition troops have been killed. Others have been wounded. Significant casualties have been suffered.
Central Command also says an Army supply convoy was ambushed, and said 12 soldiers are now unaccounted for, and they believe them to have been captured. Alessio Vinci will have the latest for us from the battlefield.
A brigade of the Army's 3rd Infantry Division is now within 100 miles of Baghdad. Seventy tanks, 60 Bradley fighting vehicles have traveled 230 miles in just 40 hours. In one engagement, the brigade killed 100 Iraqi militiamen. CNN military analyst General David Grange will give us his assessment of the campaign so far.
And British troops are still mopping up isolated resistance in and around the port of Umm Qasr. These, the pictures you are looking at, are dramatic pictures of nightscopes of the British Marines, who have been pouring fire into a suspected Iraqi strong point.
The coalition wants to clear that area of Iraqi forces so that it can use the port to unload relief supplies. We will have a report for you from Umm Qasr.
There were new explosions in Baghdad tonight, but the intensity of these attacks is much less than the Shock and Awe strikes that took place Friday and the day preceding. The Pentagon says the outcome of this war is not in doubt. Senior Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre joins us now live with a report on the day's military developments -- Jamie.
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, U.S. military commanders concede it was, quote, "a tough day of fighting" for U.S. forces as they continue to push to Baghdad. But U.S. commanders found that the U.S. combat losses and the taking of American prisoners of war would do nothing to change the war plan or their guarantee of certain victory.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A tough day of resistance is all relative, of course. It's the toughest day of resistance that we've had thus far. But it's also a day in which we have continued the attack in almost every area. We understand that there may be other tough days ahead of us.
But the outcome is still certain. We have to understand that in many conflicts in our nation's history, and in the history of our coalition partners, there have been days much, much worse than this by any stretch of the imagination.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MCINTYRE: U.S. Marines thought the main fighting at Nasiriyah was over, but they were tricked, U.S. commanders say, by special Republican Guard units who had infiltrated the regular troops and were, in some cases, pretending to surrender, in other cases, posing as welcoming civilians.
The Pentagon says it will be more cautious on how it operates on the battlefield, but there'll be no major changes to the war plan.
One engagement -- one ambush there involving a convoy of six vehicles resulted in a convoy taking a wrong turn, being ambushed by Iraqi forces, 12 Americans are missing. Some of those turned up on Iraqi television, which showed gruesome pictures of dead American soldiers and interviews with some of the captured POWs.
Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld said those pictures violated the Geneva Conventions.
As for the conduct of the war at this point, General John Abizaid, who we saw there earlier, said, quote, he is "still confident in the success of the mission." He said, "We have not seen on the battlefield a single coherent military move from the Iraqis." He called their actions the "actions of a desperate people trying to save a doomed regime." He said, "Despite our losses, the enemy remains in grave danger, and victory is certain" -- Lou.
DOBBS: Jamie, with a group of soldiers obviously captured by the Iraqis, whether they're militia or regular Army, with the number of casualties suffered by the Marines near Nasiriyah, what is the mood there in the Pentagon today? MCINTYRE: I think the mood is that it's very confident. I think today they looked at as a day when anyone who is under the misimpression that war can be clean and easy would be disabused of that notion. They have been saying all along this won't be a cakewalk. There would be casualties. There's never been a completely cost-free conflict.
And today some of that price was driven home. But if anything, it's only increased the resolve. And there's an overwhelming feeling of confidence here, that the U.S. military force is powerful and unstoppable.
DOBBS: Jamie, let's turn as well to another operation that is taking place in Afghanistan, 1,000 U.S. troops carrying out operations there. And today a Pave Hawk (ph) helicopter came down. What you can tell us about that?
MCINTYRE: Well, this was a humanitarian mission, a rescue mission to evacuate a civilian casualty, a medical evacuation. Unfortunately, the U.S. Air Force Pave Hawk helicopter crashed. All six people on board were killed. No indication it was enemy fire in that incident. It looks like it was some kind of an accident, Lou.
DOBBS: And all six service members aboard killed.
MCINTYRE: Yes, (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...
DOBBS: Jamie McIntyre.
Jamie, I'm sorry, go ahead.
MCINTYRE: I was just going to say, we're not absolutely sure they were all military personnel on board the aircraft. There were six on board and it did crash in Afghanistan, and there were no survivors.
DOBBS: Jamie McIntyre, our senior Pentagon correspondent. Thank you very much.
Earlier today, the Pentagon said that fewer than 10 of its troops were missing. Shortly after that, CNN received the first pictures of American soldiers killed and captured in action in Iraq. The pictures were transmitted by Al Jazeera, the Arab-language satellite network based in Qatar. The video was shot by state-run Iraqi TV.
We want to let you know that these pictures and the interviews were extraordinarily disturbing, and as a result, CNN has made a decision not to show the video of those killed and captured. And we will instead simply show a single image with no identifiable features. And in other images, it was apparent some soldiers been shot, some of them shot in the forehead. And we do not know their identities.
Five other soldiers were interviewed in the Iraqi TV videotape that was shown by Al Jazeera. And each gave their name and their home state in the United States. The Pentagon tells us that it's notifying the families of those captured and those who were killed in action. Central Command said it believes the soldiers seen on Al Jazeera television were from a supply convoy ambushed near the Southern city of Nasiriyah. Marines trying to take control of that city are facing a tough battle.
Alessio Vinci is with the 1st Battalion, 2nd Marines, and has the report.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
ALESSIO VINCI, CNN CORRESPONDENT (on phone): What I can report to you at this time is that a number of U.S. Marines at this time have entered the southern city of An Nasiriyah in the southwestern part of this country.
Everything began earlier this morning, when the columns of several thousand Marines advanced over An Nasiriyah and start encountering some resistance from Iraqi forces. Those Iraqi forces who had earlier on ambushed a military convoy carrying supplies to U.S. forces in this region.
And as we drove by that ambush, (UNINTELLIGIBLE) that ambush, we saw several U.S. military vehicles with bullet holes in their windows and their flat tires. And obviously the personnel on board had to be taken away really quickly before the Iraqi forces could do something to them.
We also saw Cobra helicopters flying overhead with 20-millimeter machine gun retaliating against that ambush. And we saw, according to U.S. commanders, three Iraqi tanks destroyed, five-track, and also three antiaircraft batteries.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
DOBBS: Alessio Vinci with the 2nd Marines, 1st Battalion.
We are going to go as soon as the people at Fort Bliss begin their press conference. We're awaiting the beginning of that press conference. Leading the press conference will be Colonel Ben Hobson. Fort Bliss is home to the 507th Maintenance Company, and that, of course, is the unit from which apparent prisoners of war now in Iraqi hands were based.
And we are expecting that press conference to begin momentarily. And when it does begin, we will be going to Fort Bliss, Texas.
Let's go right now to Wolf Blitzer, who's in Kuwait City.
Wolf, earlier today you talked with Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld. He expressed confidence about the outcome of this war. Give us the rest of your impressions and what he said.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: He was under no allusions. He said this war was going to be won. Saddam Hussein's regime was going to be overthrown. It wasn't a matter of if, it was only a matter of when. And he thought that was moving along quite well. He was quite impressed.
I did ask him, though, about the images that are being seen on worldwide television, huge portions of Baghdad in flames after this Shock and Awe air campaign underway. And I asked him if he was concerned, as some counterterrorism specialists are concerned, that this will only fuel anti-American attitudes and perhaps foment terrorists around the world.
And he had a firm response.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD RUMSFELD, DEFENSE SECRETARY: The fact is that the terrorists did not need any provocation. They attacked the United States of America on September 11, viciously killed 3,000 innocent men, women, and children of every religion, of every nationality across the globe.
That was not a response to an attack on Baghdad. It was an unprovoked attack. They are raising money. They are training people. We stopped them in Afghanistan. We tore up their terrorist training camps. We drove them out of that country. And in that country now, there's a government that's representative of the Afghan people.
And that is what is going to happen in Iraq. And the idea that this is provocative is wrong. Weakness is provocative. It entices people to do things they otherwise wouldn't do. And war is everybody's last choice. No rational person wants war.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: And there was no doubt that the secretary was deeply angered by those Al Jazeera Iraq TV images of those POWs that are now in the custody of the Iraqis. He flatly warned that if these POWs are not treated according to the Geneva Conventions, those who mistreat them will be treated with war crimes, and the U.S. will go after each and every one of them, Lou.
DOBBS: Wolf, I understand now that more information has just been released about the attack on the leadership of the 101st Airborne Division post by a U.S. soldier. What new do you have on that?
BLITZER: There's -- they have released the names of the soldier who was killed, a captain. They have also released the name of the suspect. And apparently now 15 -- they have raised the number of soldiers who were injured in that attack.
There's a serious investigation, obviously, under way. This is called fratricide, if in fact this fellow soldier went ahead and threw a live hand grenade or two into those tents. This is something that is going to cause -- that is obviously it's very, very disturbing. But a full-scale investigation is now underway, Lou.
DOBBS: Wolf, thank you very much. Wolf Blitzer from Kuwait City, to whom we will be going throughout the evening. Thanks, Wolf. Coalition forces today encountered Iraqi resistance in the southern port town of Umm Qasr, again. It came two days after U.S. and British officials claimed that the area had been secured.
Much of the battle was captured by a British television crew traveling with the 15th Marine Expeditionary Unit.
David Bowden reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DAVID BOWDEN, BRITISH POOL REPORTER: We're assessing the situation here. There are people running up and down with messages. They've got binoculars on the area. But the situation has not come to a halt yet. This is ongoing. It is not yet declared safe.
Earlier, (UNINTELLIGIBLE), and you can probably hear that those shadowy figures, they've got eyes on them, as they say here, now, and they...
Mike, do you feel you're safe enough there? Mike Donnelly, my cameraman, do you feel you're safe enough where you are? He says so- so. You probably saw that, Simon.
It's a difficult call. We're trying to cover the war here, but at the same time, as I say, this is not a soap opera, it's not being done for television. It's being done to carry out the mission here. We're simply bystanders. We are tagging along.
It's not easy to operate in these conditions when there is nobody firing at you. It is more difficult, of course, adrenaline will be pumping. There is a life-threatening situation here. So it's very, very difficult to operate in these conditions, certainly for the soldiers, much less so for us, obviously, because we are just a few yards back from what is de facto the front line.
But it's very hot, very difficult, very dusty. And the sand, as you know, and dust gets into everything.
I just asked you what's happening.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Roger, right now, we just got a confirmation that we've got some pop shots. I guess somebody's trying to return fire with the tanks, onto the tanks. Over. I believe the first tank's about to take a shot right now. There we go. Apparently there's somebody back there, apparently, that wants to keep going.
BOWDEN: Word has just gone down the line here to keep your heads down. Shots are coming out of the building still.
But obviously, the U.S. Marines are not satisfied that that building is safe. So they are still pounding it. And I suspect they will take it down brick by brick if necessary.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: David Bowden reporting with the 15th Marine Expeditionary.
As you have just seen and as we have been reporting throughout, resistance remains in several areas of Southern Iraq. Coalition forces have made rapid progress, certainly, in their advance northward toward Baghdad. They are now within 100 miles of the capital city.
I am joined now from CNN Center in Atlanta by our military analyst, General David Grange.
General, good to have you here.
BRIG. GEN. DAVID GRANGE (RET.), U.S. ARMY: Lou, hello.
DOBBS: The -- a number of troubling developments today. there's no question that the progress of the coalition is remarkable by historical standards. And according to some accounts, well ahead of their own schedule.
But the -- there have been a lot of setbacks as well in terms of the heavy casualties taken by particularly the Marines around Nasiriyah. So can you can give us a sense, from your perspective, of how this is going?
GRANGE: Well, I think you're seeing some great individual unit fights. In other words, the heroism, the command and control, the ability to use, combine arms, that means ground and air, light forces like commandos and heavy forces like tanks integrated with close air support and artillery fire.
And they're fighting a foe that's a bit elusive. These are units that have been infiltrated, as stated earlier, by special Republican Guards or paramilitary forces, which try to -- there are ruses and other means to confuse or deceive U.S.-British forces, and it makes it very tough in this type of fight.
DOBBS: General, we were led to believe initially, Friday, based on a Reuters report, that Umm Qasr had been taken, "had fallen," was the exact language coming out of Qatar. It was not the word or the language of General Tommy Franks, certainly, but with one of the staff officers there.
Yet that fight has been persisting for two days. Nasiriyah was supposed to have been under -- basically under control. That impression was given by a number of sources there. This is turning out to be tougher. Is it because the -- perhaps the Iraqis have been far smarter in moving elements of the Republican Guard into the southern quadrant of the country?
GRANGE: I'm not sure there that it's because they have been smarter. This is, I think, part of their strategy, to infiltrate and use -- to buffer up these units, the spine of these units, because they're -- most of this -- this -- the units down south, maybe, would cut and run or surrender. So they did that.
And what's happened here, as they control areas, they have taken down significant key objectives, oil refineries, road intersections, key terrain. And what happens is, maybe some enemy elements have laid low, small pockets, small elements, and then they arise. And that's where you're seeing some of these firefights.
It's very difficult with a rapid-moving operation to clear every foot, every house, in the area like this, a combat like this, that we're seeing in these recent fights. And so I think that's the predicament they're in. It's rear area fights to the flanks or behind forward-moving units.
DOBBS: General Franks, everyone associated with leading this advance to Baghdad, has cautioned us time and time again, even before hostilities broke out, before the invasion began, that this was going to be far tougher than people were saying, that it was going to take time.
And that expectation is apparently being realized now. But to the south, the 11th, the 11th Infantry Division of the Iraqis, the 6th Armored, they were supposed to fold rather quickly. They have not done so. What do you think will be required?
GRANGE: Well, we don't have the order of battle results of the enemy's. But what we -- the reports that we've seen, and who we have talked to, good portions of these units have surrendered or left. You -- but you have elements still left that are capable of fighting our forces, reinforced by these others.
And I think you're right. I think that the resistance is going to be stiff. And we may see that coalition forces are going to move into a phase where the intensity of pressure on enemy forces throughout Iraq will increase, because I think we may be at a phase where they have had an opportunity to lay down their arms and not die in place.
And maybe there's more persuasion needed against some of these units. And I think in the days to come, tonight, maybe, we'll see this.
DOBBS: You sounded almost, if I may say, general, Rumsfeldian in your language there. Are you suggesting that the air campaign, the bombardment, the Shock and Awe, needs to be intensified to be -- both for the support of ground troops and to be persuasive of the Iraqis?
GRANGE: I would say both ground and air, but specifically air, because the ground forces are already engaged. I think those that are in the fight, most of them, are already there. Some elements very far forward, with lines stretched out. And they have a lot on their plate as there is. So it would probably be air, yes.
DOBBS: And do you think at this point that we can expect a more rapid rate of deployment of other U.S. forces into the theater?
GRANGE: I believe that's going to pick up. The pace is going to pick up. You know, these troopers have been going for, what, four days now, and then all the planning and the intensity of the excitement before they even crossed the line of departure into Iraq. They're tired. They know they have a rest plan, very brief rest plans, as they move forward.
There's a lot of stress put on these soldier, not that they can't handle it. These Marines and soldiers are doing a great job, and they will. But I think probably more forces would be welcome.
DOBBS: General David Grange, thank you very much, as always.
The 101st Airborne Division is pushing deep into Iraq. It has established a forward operating base now in the south of the country.
I'm joined now live by Ryan Chilcote with the Screaming Eagles from inside Iraq. His photographer is Greg Dameliko (ph) -- Ryan.
RYAN CHILCOTE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, the 101st Airborne's 3rd Infantry Brigade has established what is called a FARP (ph). This is very important. It stands for forward area rearming and refueling point. And what it basically is, is a gigantic gas station in the desert and arms depot for helicopters.
What it allows, very importantly, what it allows the 101st Airborne now to do is to move its troops even deeper behind Iraqi lines. It can use its assault helicopters, primarily the Black Hawk helicopter, like you see behind me here at this FARP, to -- it can use the -- they can fly to the front, and then, now, instead of having to fly all the way back to the rear, they can simply fly back to this FARP, refuel, rearm, and then go back to the front. So it allows them to put their troops farther into the battle.
Secondly, it allows, very importantly, it allows them to move their attack helicopters, primarily the Apache Longbow helicopter, that's the brand-new version of the Apache helicopter, which you're going to be hearing a lot about, I think, during this war, that can locate several targets and actually hand off those targets to other Apache Longbow helicopters flying alongside it, so that they can simultaneously, having gathered information, have -- where one helicopter gathers information, they can all simultaneously fire on several different targets.
It allows those helicopters to spend more time destroying targets and less time taxiing all the way back to the rear. So this FARP is no small matter. This is a very serious milestone, if you will, in the buildup here inside Iraq.
Very quickly, before the 101st Airborne got here, well, it was a 72-hour whirlwind road trip, if you will, from Kuwait to here. People talk about the race to Baghdad. Well, I think I got a taste of it. The 101st Airborne never stopping for more than a couple of hours to refuel or switch out drivers. Really, the modo (ph) here, the credo was to keep on going as quickly as possible to set up this forward area refueling and rearming point, Lou.
DOBBS: The 101st is always earning that Screaming Eagle standard.
You feel you're tired. Imagine those troops who are driving and moving everything along. Let me ask you this. Have you in that 72- hour period, have you been engaged with the enemy at all?
CHILCOTE: No, absolutely not. Very friendly, actually, environment. (UNINTELLIGIBLE) the 100 -- the 3rd Infantry Brigade went through three towns. The first town, a very warm reception. That was on the first day. A lot of Iraqis turned out on the streets, waving to the troops, giving them the thumbs-up, shouting to them, the soldiers tossing MREs, meals ready to eat, to the Iraqis waiting on the side of the road. It was very friendly environment.
The second town, not quite that way. Very eerie feeling, actually, the soldiers told me. They felt like they were not at all welcome. The soldiers there, instead of -- or rather the Iraqis there, instead of welcoming them, simply watching them pass through.
So a bit of both warm and cold reception for the troops, Lou.
DOBBS: Ryan, let me ask you a couple of questions. And certainly our audiences is well aware that we are sensitive to the military constraints and the needs for limiting whatever information. But General Grange and I were just talking about it. It's been -- we're now 96 hours into the drive toward Baghdad from Kuwait, as you have just reported.
Are your -- are the troops of the 101st, are they -- how is their morale? How are they rested? And are they ready for the next phase? And if you could, explain just briefly how this next phase changes for the 101st in particular, which has been following the 3rd.
CHILCOTE: Absolutely. Well, the 100 -- I would say morale is very high. The 101st Airborne was the last to arrive in Kuwait and also the last to arrive in Iraq now. And they were very anxious, if you will, to get involved in what's happening inside Iraq.
How things might change, well, the 101st Airborne has more helicopters than any other division in the U.S. Army. And I think you're going to see a lot more use of those helicopters. The 101st Airborne is the 101st Airborne Division Air Assault.
And ever since Vietnam, they have specialized in using helicopters to move their troops to the battlefield. I think you're going to see a lot more of that in addition to the ground movements that you've been seeing from the 3rd Infantry Division.
So that will change how this war is fought, because those helicopters can move very quickly. It allows the U.S. Army a great deal of flexibility. The 101st Airborne likes to talk about how it can move its troops further and faster and with more combat power than any other division in the Army.
So I think you'll see the element of surprise being used a lot more than it has, than just the basic brunt show of force that we have seen up to this point, Lou.
DOBBS: Ryan Chilcote with the 101st Screaming Eagles, thank you very much. President Bush has returned to the White House after a weekend at Camp David. The president, upon his arrival back at the White House, warned Americans that this is only the beginning of what will be a tough fight in Iraq.
The president also had a stern warning for the Iraqis who hold American prisoners of war now.
Dana Bash reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DANA BASH, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Back from Camp David as Iraqis released graphic pictures of Americans killed in action and the first prisoners of war. A stern warning from the commander in chief.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The POWs I expect to be treated humanely. And just like we're treating the prisoners that we have captured humanely. If not, the people who mistreat the prisoners will be treated as war criminals.
BASH: Taking reporters' questions for the first time in a week, the president expressed confidence about the war's progress. But as reality of casualties on the battlefield set in, he braced the country for a tough fight ahead.
BUSH: I know that Saddam Hussein is losing control of his country. That we're slowly but surely achieving our objective. It's important for the American people to realize that this war has just begun.
BASH: Despite some resistance, Mr. bush said U.S. forces achieved a key objective, securing most of Southern Iraq and especially the oil fields.
BUSH: Tommy Franks put a plan in place that moved on those oil fields quickly. And at least in the south, they are secure, and that is positive news for all of us.
BASH: But things are more precarious on the northern front. The administration is concerned Turkey may send troops into Iraq.
BUSH: We're making it very clear to the Turks that we expect them not to come into Northern Iraq. And we're in constant touch with the Turkish military as well as Turkish politicians. They know our policy, and it's a firm policy, and we've made it very clear to them we expect them not to go into Northern Iraq.
BASH: As for Saddam Hussein, the president made clear the opportunity to leave Iraq safely has come and gone.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BASH: And to help to convince Iraqis the intention of this attack is to liberate not conquer, the president said after the ground assault there will be massive amounts of humanitarian aid. Maybe in the next 36 hours -- Lou.
DOBBS: Dana, thank you very much. Dana Bash, from the White House.
Coming up next here the latest the developments on the war. The United States is now accusing Russian companies of selling equipment to Iraq that is being used against our forces.
Andrea Koppel will have the lastest from the State Department.
We will also be joined by CNN reporter Frank Buckley aboard the USS Constallation in the Persian Gulf. That and a great deal more still ahead. Stay with us.
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(NEWSBREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I zigged and zagged through parking lots.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I remember my 5-year-old daughter had to have police escorts to take her into preschool.
JEANNE MESERVE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The sniper slayings not only changed lives, they crystallized opinions when a juvenile, Malvo, was arrested and charged. John Tuell's reaction...
JOHN TUELL, CHILD WELFARE LEAGUE: Oh, no because we're going to have to confront this issue of the imposition of the death penalty for juvenile offenders and this may inflame an otherwise what I think is becoming a more rational discussion about the issue.
MESERVE: With one sniper shooting just a few miles from his house, Tuell who has worked against the death penalty for juveniles found his views tested but in the end intact. He discounts the death penalty's deterrent effects and says that teens can not make judgments the way adults can.
TUELL: When we choose to apply the ultimate sanction of death to those who are still in a mode of developing those skills, I think it's an unfair practice.
MESERVE: Mike Flynn (ph) couldn't disagree more because of the magnitude and the premeditated nature of the sniper crimes. A Washington advocate for the death penalty, he points out that Malvo was only months away from 18 when the shootings took place.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But when you create an act of terror, these heinous acts which show just complete disregard for human life, I think you do have to face the ultimate punishment.
MESERVE: Though 22 states allow capital punishment for crimes committed at ages 16 or 17, only a handful have actually carried out executions. Virginia is one. Its record, one reason it was chosen as the venue for Malvo's prosecution.
PAUL EBERT, PROSECUTOR: The death penalty is reserved for the worst of the worst and I think from the evidence that all of you are aware of over the last month or so, these folks qualify.
MESERVE (on camera): Polls show the majority of Americans oppose juvenile executions but Malvo's fate will be in the hands of 12 jurors whose opinions like those of Mike Flynn and John Tuell may have been shaped or changed by the rampage of killings last autumn.
Jeanne Meserve CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: What would Iraq's leadership be like after a war or after getting rid of Saddam Hussein? There are several likely scenarios. We'll talk with a reporter who's familiar with all of those scenarios when we come right back.
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WHITFIELD: Reporter interviews with Iraqi President Saddam Hussein are rare but not impossible now. Just ask Dan Rather. He sat down with the Iraqi dictator and what did they talk about? Rather tells all to Howard Kurtz with CNN's "RELIABLE SOURCES."
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
HOWARD KURTZ, CNN ANCHOR: What do you do as an interviewer when Saddam Hussein says something ludicrous like we didn't lose the Gulf War? Is it your job to correct him, to debate him, to challenge him?
DAN RATHER, CBS NEWS ANCHOR: No, I don't think so, because I think that is such a -- I think it speaks for itself. What I'd like to do after a question and answer such as that is just take a long deep pause to let it soak in and I did come back on that and say do you understand that most Americans think in effect that that's crazy or delusional?
But this was important to me, Howie, that I went in journalistically, not (unintelligible) and I -- you know the role of the reporter is to be an honest broker of information insofar as that's possible. Everybody has their own style and, indeed, most of us we change styles from time to time from interview to interview.
I thought the approach that I brought to the interview was the proper one under those circumstances and at that time and we can pick it apart as said before and some of the criticism, a lot of the criticism is justified and I fully understand it.
But I think a statement like that when he said, you know, I got 100 percent of the vote, I don't think you need to follow up on a question like that. I think it speaks for itself and I do think the audience understands that. And when he says I won the Gulf War, I think the audience understands. I don't think it's necessary. For once at least, for once I didn't want this to be a showboat. I wanted this to be good journalism. I wanted it to be quality journalism and I wanted to put on the screen for everybody to decide for themselves that Saddam Hussein who has appealed in the past so greatly to Arabs and other Muslims and the Saddam Hussein that we're about to go to war with so people understand who he is, what he is, and what we're up against.
KURTZ: But now the cameras were turned off after about an hour and 40 minutes. You had a lot more time with him than you had expected and then Saddam invited you into his office and sort of started to ask you questions. Tell us a little bit about that.
RATHER: Well, I thought the interview, the on-camera interview was clearly over. They said so and I thought that was it for us. It had gone longer than we had been told in the beginning that it would go, quite a bit longer, so we took off the microphones and we were about to go our ways and he was moving away and the translator said the president wants you to join him in his office if you're prepared to do that and so I said OK.
We went into his office. Jim Murphy (ph), the executive producer of "The Evening News" was with me. He wasn't sure he was invited. He held back and Saddam Hussein waved him on in. And, in that roughly hour and 15 minutes, there was another conversation and it was basically taken up with his asking questions respectfully and calmly. There is a kind of an eerie calm about him.
KURTZ: Did you feel any awkwardness about being asked by Saddam about the state of American public opinion toward this potential war?
RATHER: Well, frankly some. You know my job is to ask the questions but under the circumstances and I'd said to him, you know, I'm not a politician. I'm not a military person. I'm not a diplomat. You've asked me and I'll try to answer the question as directly as I can. It was along that line and I did -- his main thing was he wanted to understand two things he said.
One was why so much public opinion remains behind President Bush. He noted with some satisfaction I thought that the president's polls have been dropping some but he understands that American public opinion is still behind President Bush and probably will be even more so once a full frontal attack happens if that happens. He understands that and he said but, you know, why is that so?
And I gave him the answer that I think anybody else would give him that, you know, you need to understand how deeply we feel about what happened on 9/11, how deeply we feel about people such as Osama bin Laden and as long as you're connected to those two things and particularly to Osama bin Laden...
KURTZ: Right.
RATHER: ...then that's the reason President Bush has so much support. KURTZ: One more question on the Saddam interview. You can't have been happy that the Iraqis controlled the cameras, made the videotape, dubbed in their own translation, which I know you and CBS double-checked. I mean that's a very unusual set of circumstances.
RATHER: It is but those are the circumstances anybody who has interviewed Saddam Hussein, myself included with other people, is always that way with him. We insisted and they agreed that there would be no prior conditions about the questions and whatever you may or may not think about the interview, Saddam Hussein was not given an opportunity to rave on and speak uninterrupted on topics of his choosing.
We told him there's no condition about the questions. We made a request for our own cameras. They rejected that. We made a request that we have one camera in the room, rejected that on security grounds, saying don't forget what happened to the leader of the Northern Alliance in Afghanistan.
So, I would have preferred that we shot it with our own cameras but it's very important that they agreed and they delivered on the two most important things, no preconditions to the questions and that we would get the full interview, that the integrity of the interview would be delivered as was to us. And, while there was a delay in their doing that, for what reason I don't know, they did in the end come through with that. Am I happy about the circumstances? Certainly not but anybody who's going to do an interview with Saddam Hussein is going to do the interview under those circumstances.
Howie, let me say gently that I don't know of a reporter worthy of the name who wouldn't have taken this opportunity and done the interview under those circumstances that they had to.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WHITFIELD: Want to know more of the rare details about Iraq's President Saddam Hussein revealed to Dan Rather? Well, you can get them right here on CNN. Rather is a guest tonight on "LARRY KING LIVE" and that show begins at nine o'clock Eastern time.
Well, if there is a war with Iraq and President Saddam Hussein is removed from power, what happens next? Could it become a true democracy? That's the focus of a new article in the "New York Times Magazine." George Packer wrote the story and is a frequent contributor to the magazine and he joins us from New York, good to see you George.
GEORGE PACKER, "THE MORNING AFTER": Thanks for having me.
WHITFIELD: All right, in a nutshell do you see that it would be control or chaos post Saddam?
PACKER: Well, I have to hedge a bit because Iraq is under such a tight lid that no one knows what kind of political reality we're going to find once that lid is lifted but there are a lot of reasons to worry. Some of them have to do with Iraq's history, which has never been democratic.
Some have to do with its ethnic mix which is quite diverse and can be fractious, and I think some have to do with the fact that the administration hasn't made its plans very clear and in some ways has antagonized some of the very forces that it will need to work with after the fall of Saddam if there is a war in order to begin to democratize that country.
WHITFIELD: In fact, let's talk about I guess those conflicts that are rooted in the cultural and the political differences there in that country and the complexities. The majority there is Shiite.
PACKER: Yes.
WHITFIELD: But Saddam Hussein was a -- is of the Ba'ath Party and since 1986 -- or '68 rather, people have been very loyal to the Ba'ath Party and to his leadership.
PACKER: Well, they've had to be.
WHITFIELD: Yes, they've had to be so if he were not there, if he were somehow deposed or removed from power, might those loyalists still insist that another Ba'ath Party leader be in charge?
PACKER: Well, I think in a way it's going to be up to the Americans. There's a tendency in the administration to want to work with known quantities and that tends to find itself more in the State Department and the Sunnis who dominate the Ba'ath Party are the known quantity in Iraq. They fill the bureaucracy. They're the technocrats and it may well be, in fact the administration has revealed certain plans that they will work with lower level Ba'ath Party officials in a post war scenario.
WHITFIELD: Well, in fact, you talk about the American influence but already we've heard from the United Arab Emirates. We've now heard from Bahrain as well and even Kuwait who all say that Saddam Hussein needs to step down, but it's the United Arab Emirates who would say that they would rather help facilitate some kind of transition. So might it be a mistake if anyone but an Arab nation were to help in that transition? Does the United States really have a role to keep that -- keep some sort of stability there?
PACKER: Well, if the United States goes to war, it will have to have that role. If somehow war is averted and Saddam Hussein is removed without a war, which frankly it seems unlikely to me, then there's all sorts of scenarios that could play themselves out. The Arab League has talked about having an Arab League administration run the country in the interim.
But this is actually not going to be good news for a lot of Iraqis who actually don't trust their Arab neighbors and who think that rather than bringing democracy to Iraq, the other Arab countries are simply going to be looking after their own interest. So, every outside power is going to come under suspicion including the United States that its own interests are what are driving its policies. WHITFIELD: Well, George, let me just borrow a little passage from your article and you're almost or perhaps forecasting to be somewhat prophetic here. "When Saddam suddenly ordered the release of tens of thousands of prisoners from the (unintelligible) prison last fall, the surge of inmates from within the walls and family members from without overwhelmed prison guards and crushed a number of people to death at the very moment of freedom.
Reporters who ventured into the bowels of the prison were struck by the appalling odors of long human confinement when a seal on Iraq has broken, the surge will be just as intense and the smell of decades of repression just as rank." So, are you seeing that this is likely, the price for freedom, the price of freedom might be a new hell, is that what you're saying?
PACKER: I think there's a lot of reason to fear civil anarchy. After the Gulf War, there were uprisings in the north and south that were quite bloody and the score settling was extreme.
And again, it depends on how the war goes and what kind of U.S. administration is in place and whether it's capable of policing a country in which perhaps battles are still being fought, weapons depots are still being sought out, remnants of the special Republican Guard are still fighting back. Perhaps in Baghdad there's urban conflict and all around the country this lid has been lifted and I don't see how it could not be chaotic.
WHITFIELD: All right, George Packer thank you very much in today's "New York Times Magazine, The Morning After."
PACKER: Thank you.
WHITFIELD: Thanks very much for joining us, appreciate it.
PACKER: Thank you.
WHITFIELD: Well, non-musical problems for musicians on Broadway when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WHITFIELD: Samba students are showing their footwork in Rio De Janeiro. It's part of Brazil's biggest party of the year, Carnival. Between now and Ash Wednesday, 170 million people are expected to attend.
More cheering in Switzerland where they're celebrating winning the 152nd America's Cup. Not bad for a country that doesn't even have a coastline but there is a tarnish to the trophy. The New Zealanders hired to crew for the Swiss are being called traitors back home.
And in Alaska they're off, well kind of. Trucks hauled in snow for the ceremonial start of the Iditerod dog sled race. In Anchorage, then trucks hauled the teams north where there is snow to run the race. It officially begins tomorrow in Fairbanks and warm weather has some people calling this years race the Iditi-detour, ha ha. Well, there's also a few new stories we just couldn't end the night without including. First, Tiger Woods has withdrawn from next week's golf tournament in the United Arab Emirates. He's the latest in a growing list of players to pull out due to the threat of war.
McDonald's has decided to put its healthy fries concept on the back burner. The fast food chain announced last fall it was going to start using a healthier cooking oil to make it's French fries. Well now, the company says it's going to take a little longer to complete the switch.
And finally, first time film director Rob Marshall has won the Director's Guild of America's top honor for his musical "Chicago." That makes him the critic's choice for Oscar gold later on this month.
And the band might not play -- might not play on, rather, in the Big Apple. Broadway musicians are tuning up for a possible strike. CNN's Whitney Casey has the score on what's at stake.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WHITNEY CASEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): And now the possibility of 76 virtual trombones as Broadway shows like "The Music Man" start rehearsing with computer generated music, preparations by Broadway producers for a looming musicians' strike. Meanwhile, musicians are striking up their band of support.
WILLIAM MORIARTY, PRESIDENT, LOCAL 802: The only issue of real contention has to do with the employer's proposal to eliminate the staff minimums at the various Broadway theaters.
CASEY: The union wants a guaranteed minimum number of musicians per theater. How many would depend on the house size but the musicians' contract is up and Broadway producers contend "The Lullaby of Broadway" will not be sung acapella.
JED BERNSTEIN, PRES., LEAGUE OF AMERICAN THEATERS AND PRODUCERS: Live music is indigenous to what Broadway is. It's vital. It's not going away. The only scenario where virtual orchestra technology would be used is in the event of a union strike.
CASEY: However, the musicians insist that doing away with the minimums will eventually mean doing away with live music.
JOHN ARBO, BASS PLAYER: It's happening on the road already. There are no minimums on road shows and there are a number of road shows touring which have virtual orchestras taking the place of a number of musicians.
CASEY: "The Great White Way" generates more than $4.4 billion a year for New York City, money Mayor Michael Bloomberg says is vital in this post September 11th economy.
MAYOR MICHAEL BLOOMBERG, NEW YORK: Producers are worried about the costs. There's an awful lot of plays on Broadway and you have to support all of them so -- but hopefully they'll work it out and we are trying to be helpful.
CASEY: The melodies are unforgettable and now the story lines -- you may recall "The Music Man's" (unintelligible), a smooth salesman who convinces the community that buying his musical instruments will give them culture. But will a musicians' walkout mean the silencing of his trombone and trouble right here in New York City?
Whitney Casey CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WHITFIELD: The musicians union had set midnight tonight as a strike deadline but buying just a little bit more time, just a few minutes ago they moved it to this coming Thursday at midnight.
Dayton, Ohio residents probably won't soon forget the spectacle that got opening ceremonies for a new performing arts center off the ground literally. Looking like some sort of ninja spidermen, members of a San Francisco based dance troupe called Project Bandalupe (ph) treated their audience to an aerial ballet Friday night.
They swooped across the eastern face of an 18-story tower to help inaugurate the new Shuster (ph) Performing Arts Center in downtown Dayton. "Swan Lake" was never like this. Eat your heart out.
Well, that's it for us. Coming up "PEOPLE IN THE NEWS," Saddam Hussein and Robert Blake profile. And at eight o'clock Eastern time, "CNN PRESENTS: IRAQ ON THE BRINK" including the CIA's secret war in Iraq. And last, but not least, Larry King at nine o'clock Eastern time with more on Dan Rather's interview with Saddam Hussein. Have a good night.
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