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Iraqi Army Evacuate Positions in Hills Overlooking Kalak; Interview with Leon Panetta

Aired April 02, 2003 - 10:40   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: We head straight to norther Iraq where our very own Ben Wedeman joins us with the latest from there. Good morning, Ben. What do you have?
BEN WEDEMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, good morning. What we have is that the Iraqi Army appears to have evacuated its positions in the hills overlooking Kalak. I'm right now standing on one of the roads that goes right through those Iraqi positions and they have gone within the last hour, they essentially disappeared. They're not -- not a shot fired it appears simply that too much bombing, too much harassment by U.S. aircraft has driven these Iraqi soldiers away. There were no surrenders, to the best of our knowledge. Basically this afternoon, the local Kurdish fighters noticed that no longer could they see any of these soldiers sticking their heads above their trenches. They have simply disappeared in the direction of Mosul from where I'm standing is 27 miles to the east. To the west I mean.

ZAHN: Ben, give us a little bit more information on where you think these Iraqi soldiers might have gone.

WEDEMAN: Well, frankly, terrain that we're unfamiliar with in terms of what is between where I'm standing and Mosul. We know there's a river back there that might provide a natural boundary. But the problem at this point is that it's just getting dark here. The Kurds are very worried about the possibility that the road I'm standing on is mined. That there could be ambushes being set for them. So right now they're just surveying this ridge line position and coming up the road in front of me right now is some senior Kurdish official coming to inspect. But they have made it clear they're not actually going to be moving ahead in the direction of Mosul until daylight tomorrow. Until they get a better idea, and we do as well of what lies between us and Mosul.

ZAHN: Looking at pictures of some young children that are mesmerized by the camera. Can you put into context the scene? I don't know if you were there. But dozens and dozens of young children.

WEDEMAN: I think I know what you're talking about. That picture is not from this area. It's from north of Mosul. That's another village we were in Kalaheen (ph) where we went -- that was a Kurdish village that basically today was taken over by Kurdish forces. They drove out the Iraqi Army there. And unlike, of course, the scenes in the southern part of Iraq where there's been some hesitation to celebrate the departure of Iraqi forces. Here in the north when the Kurds have advanced we have seen scenes of joy and celebration once the Iraqi Army was pulled out of that area.

ZAHN: When you describe the Iraqis disappearing without even firing a shot, what was it that was expected there? A much more fierce batle?

WEDEMAN: No, we found in the north Iraqis have been pulling back almost along the entire where, in very large sections the lines between the Kurds and the Iraqi Army. What has happened in the areas where they have pulled back, they have been subjected to fairly intense, relentless bombing by U.S. aircraft which simply made their positions untenable. For that reason, they have pulled back. By and large, with exception of this area we were in north of Mosul today, there hadn't been any -- not a shot fired anywhere except for there where Kurds did in fact engage Iraqi forces. Here in Kalak not a shot was fired. Kurds themselves seem puzzled by the sudden disappearance of the Iraqi troops.

ZAHN: Ben Wedeman, thanks for the update. We'll be getting back to you throughout the day.

Now as U.S. forces battle their way to Baghdad the Bush administration is engaged in a different fight against those who have criticized the war plan some within the administration, some from outside. And the president has been working to maintain support among the American public. Many are wondering what's happening in private. We're puting that question to a man who knows the inner workings of the White House. Former White House Chief of Staff Leon Panetta who worked during the Clinton administration.

LEON PANETTA, FMR. WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF: Nice to be with you.

ZAHN: Help us understand the challenge of any White House putting on a united front during a crisis.

PANETTA: Well, it is a big challenge. Obviously the White House is consumed, as it should be, by this war. The president is totally focusing on it as is the White House staff. The most important thing is to understand that there are going to be criticisms, there are going to be people who question the tactics. But you've got to keep your eye on the mission, keep your focus because ultimately it is the president in this administration that will determine whether or not we win.

ZAHN: It's often been said, though, this is a president who really values tension among his top advisers. Is that something that President Clinton also liked?

PANETTA: Well, I think you want to have people give you their best views. You know, you're in a difficult situation. You're confronting a war. And you want to make sure that you're getting the best advice possible, both from your military experts as well as from your aides and diplomatic team as well. You've got to get the best advice. It may conflict, there may be tensions and ultimately the president's going to be the one to make the decision. But you ought to have the president -- want to have the president exposed to every viewpoint because in that kind of decision making, you better know all of the facts before you decide.

ZAHN: I know that a number of people have described this whole process, of course, as being very tight liped during these war council meetings and they have indicated that the president is very hard to read. That's an important thing to be, isn't it?

PANETTA: I think that's a great thing to be. You don't want to have the president walk into a room having made a decision or indicating what his decision is going to be. You want to have a president go into a room and be able to sit there and listen to all of these viewpoints, and keep your staff and all of your aides guessing as to what your position is going to be because these are tough decisions. These decisions of war and peace of lives that are now at risk, these are tough decisions for a president. And the president ultimately has to get all of the information before making his decision. In the end, it is the president's decision.

ZAHN: You had to navigate some pretty treacherous waters when President Clinton was in office. And I just wanted your reaction to some of the criticism you have heard of this war plan, not only from commanders in the field but from retired military personnel, most of -- well all of whom in the newspaper accounts are anonymous. Is it fair?

PANETTA: Well, look, there's going to be criticism on the outside. This is a free country and people are going to express their viewpoints and they should. This is what this country is all about. It's what we're fighting for in Iraq. But with regards to people inside the administration and people who are inside the military, I think they've got to remain loyal to the president and to the president's plan. And I do -- I am concerned when you hear criticism within the military because, you know, at this stage of the game the military has to carry out these orders and get the mission done and I don't think there's very much room for that kind of criticism within. Outside, this is a free country and people have every right to be critical.

ZAHN: We know that you haven't been inside the Bush war council meetings but you attended tense meetings during the Clinton administration,during Somalia and some other acts. We're going to try to get that picture again of President Bush presiding over the war council at Camp David. And just a final thought on the kind of tension that exists in that room where you have very distinct points of view. You've got the diplomats urging for one resolve, you've got the military people often pushing for something quite different.

PANETTA: Paula, there is no greater pressure on a President of the United States than when he has to make decisions that involve putting our military men and women at risk in battle. And the tension is there. The president has to decide whether or not he's going to send these people into war, lose lives, impact on families in this country. And so you know that there's tension. But at the same time, his aides have to be forthright in giving the president the best advice they can because in the end, this is about victory in war, this is about trying to protect lives.

ZAHN: Well, we appreciate your nonpartisan take on all of this today. Always appreciate your perspective.

PANETTA: Thank you Paula, always nice to be here.

ZAHN: Leon Panetta, former White House chief of staff now the head of Panetta Institute.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com


Aired April 2, 2003 - 10:40   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: We head straight to norther Iraq where our very own Ben Wedeman joins us with the latest from there. Good morning, Ben. What do you have?
BEN WEDEMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, good morning. What we have is that the Iraqi Army appears to have evacuated its positions in the hills overlooking Kalak. I'm right now standing on one of the roads that goes right through those Iraqi positions and they have gone within the last hour, they essentially disappeared. They're not -- not a shot fired it appears simply that too much bombing, too much harassment by U.S. aircraft has driven these Iraqi soldiers away. There were no surrenders, to the best of our knowledge. Basically this afternoon, the local Kurdish fighters noticed that no longer could they see any of these soldiers sticking their heads above their trenches. They have simply disappeared in the direction of Mosul from where I'm standing is 27 miles to the east. To the west I mean.

ZAHN: Ben, give us a little bit more information on where you think these Iraqi soldiers might have gone.

WEDEMAN: Well, frankly, terrain that we're unfamiliar with in terms of what is between where I'm standing and Mosul. We know there's a river back there that might provide a natural boundary. But the problem at this point is that it's just getting dark here. The Kurds are very worried about the possibility that the road I'm standing on is mined. That there could be ambushes being set for them. So right now they're just surveying this ridge line position and coming up the road in front of me right now is some senior Kurdish official coming to inspect. But they have made it clear they're not actually going to be moving ahead in the direction of Mosul until daylight tomorrow. Until they get a better idea, and we do as well of what lies between us and Mosul.

ZAHN: Looking at pictures of some young children that are mesmerized by the camera. Can you put into context the scene? I don't know if you were there. But dozens and dozens of young children.

WEDEMAN: I think I know what you're talking about. That picture is not from this area. It's from north of Mosul. That's another village we were in Kalaheen (ph) where we went -- that was a Kurdish village that basically today was taken over by Kurdish forces. They drove out the Iraqi Army there. And unlike, of course, the scenes in the southern part of Iraq where there's been some hesitation to celebrate the departure of Iraqi forces. Here in the north when the Kurds have advanced we have seen scenes of joy and celebration once the Iraqi Army was pulled out of that area.

ZAHN: When you describe the Iraqis disappearing without even firing a shot, what was it that was expected there? A much more fierce batle?

WEDEMAN: No, we found in the north Iraqis have been pulling back almost along the entire where, in very large sections the lines between the Kurds and the Iraqi Army. What has happened in the areas where they have pulled back, they have been subjected to fairly intense, relentless bombing by U.S. aircraft which simply made their positions untenable. For that reason, they have pulled back. By and large, with exception of this area we were in north of Mosul today, there hadn't been any -- not a shot fired anywhere except for there where Kurds did in fact engage Iraqi forces. Here in Kalak not a shot was fired. Kurds themselves seem puzzled by the sudden disappearance of the Iraqi troops.

ZAHN: Ben Wedeman, thanks for the update. We'll be getting back to you throughout the day.

Now as U.S. forces battle their way to Baghdad the Bush administration is engaged in a different fight against those who have criticized the war plan some within the administration, some from outside. And the president has been working to maintain support among the American public. Many are wondering what's happening in private. We're puting that question to a man who knows the inner workings of the White House. Former White House Chief of Staff Leon Panetta who worked during the Clinton administration.

LEON PANETTA, FMR. WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF: Nice to be with you.

ZAHN: Help us understand the challenge of any White House putting on a united front during a crisis.

PANETTA: Well, it is a big challenge. Obviously the White House is consumed, as it should be, by this war. The president is totally focusing on it as is the White House staff. The most important thing is to understand that there are going to be criticisms, there are going to be people who question the tactics. But you've got to keep your eye on the mission, keep your focus because ultimately it is the president in this administration that will determine whether or not we win.

ZAHN: It's often been said, though, this is a president who really values tension among his top advisers. Is that something that President Clinton also liked?

PANETTA: Well, I think you want to have people give you their best views. You know, you're in a difficult situation. You're confronting a war. And you want to make sure that you're getting the best advice possible, both from your military experts as well as from your aides and diplomatic team as well. You've got to get the best advice. It may conflict, there may be tensions and ultimately the president's going to be the one to make the decision. But you ought to have the president -- want to have the president exposed to every viewpoint because in that kind of decision making, you better know all of the facts before you decide.

ZAHN: I know that a number of people have described this whole process, of course, as being very tight liped during these war council meetings and they have indicated that the president is very hard to read. That's an important thing to be, isn't it?

PANETTA: I think that's a great thing to be. You don't want to have the president walk into a room having made a decision or indicating what his decision is going to be. You want to have a president go into a room and be able to sit there and listen to all of these viewpoints, and keep your staff and all of your aides guessing as to what your position is going to be because these are tough decisions. These decisions of war and peace of lives that are now at risk, these are tough decisions for a president. And the president ultimately has to get all of the information before making his decision. In the end, it is the president's decision.

ZAHN: You had to navigate some pretty treacherous waters when President Clinton was in office. And I just wanted your reaction to some of the criticism you have heard of this war plan, not only from commanders in the field but from retired military personnel, most of -- well all of whom in the newspaper accounts are anonymous. Is it fair?

PANETTA: Well, look, there's going to be criticism on the outside. This is a free country and people are going to express their viewpoints and they should. This is what this country is all about. It's what we're fighting for in Iraq. But with regards to people inside the administration and people who are inside the military, I think they've got to remain loyal to the president and to the president's plan. And I do -- I am concerned when you hear criticism within the military because, you know, at this stage of the game the military has to carry out these orders and get the mission done and I don't think there's very much room for that kind of criticism within. Outside, this is a free country and people have every right to be critical.

ZAHN: We know that you haven't been inside the Bush war council meetings but you attended tense meetings during the Clinton administration,during Somalia and some other acts. We're going to try to get that picture again of President Bush presiding over the war council at Camp David. And just a final thought on the kind of tension that exists in that room where you have very distinct points of view. You've got the diplomats urging for one resolve, you've got the military people often pushing for something quite different.

PANETTA: Paula, there is no greater pressure on a President of the United States than when he has to make decisions that involve putting our military men and women at risk in battle. And the tension is there. The president has to decide whether or not he's going to send these people into war, lose lives, impact on families in this country. And so you know that there's tension. But at the same time, his aides have to be forthright in giving the president the best advice they can because in the end, this is about victory in war, this is about trying to protect lives.

ZAHN: Well, we appreciate your nonpartisan take on all of this today. Always appreciate your perspective.

PANETTA: Thank you Paula, always nice to be here.

ZAHN: Leon Panetta, former White House chief of staff now the head of Panetta Institute.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com