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American Morning
3-7th Cavalry Moving Toward Baghdad
Aired April 03, 2003 - 07:58 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Walt Rodgers is now live by way of videophone. There's a bit of a delay here, about five seconds, but, Walt, if you can hear me, tell us what's happening there.
WALTER RODGERS, CNN ANCHOR: Bill, you're watching an Apache, the leader of the Apache troop. That is the Seventh Calvary M-1, A-1 Abram tank. It's a very tight shot. We cannot get too broad on this, because we would be revealing the kinds of topographical features about the location of the 7th Calvary, which we're forbidden to reveal. Nonetheless, we've been rolling down a road, moving closer and closer to Baghdad. That big 120 millimeter gun, seconds before you came to aspire into the countryside. We can hear shooting all about us, particularly from the 25 millimeter aboard the Bradley fighting vehicles.
Again, the 7th Calvary, along with its parent unit, the 3rd Infantry Division is definitely pushing in the direction of Baghdad, much closer than yesterday. We cannot give you any coordinates or any of our locations, of course.
But about two hours ago, we crossed the Euphrates River again at a crossing that had been earlier been taken by the 1st Brigade of the 3rd Infantry Division. That 1st Brigade of the 3rd Infantry Division had to fight its way somewhat through the territory. They are not encountering what you would call large Republican Guard units, but there are freelance Iraqi fighters out there, and they are firing at the convoys, both the 3rd Infantry Divisions, 1st Brigade, and also the 7th Cavalry. We can hear shooting all about us as we go now.
Mostly what we've encountered, 7th Cavalry, despite the small arms fire and the firing from the sides of the road, which we're now traveling, mostly what you're seeing is -- what we're seeing is small fox holes, small bunkers at intersections on small back country roads. The Iraqi soldiers would dig into those. They were no match for the heavy armored column, which you can see ahead of us now. Again, we're having to give you a very tight picture with very little sense of panorama, no sense of panorama.
As a matter of fact, in a few seconds we're going to have to drop this picture or at least swing back to me. The reason being, of course, that we would be in a location which would reveal our location.
Again, the 7th Cavalry fighting its way towards Baghdad as I am speaking to you. These pictures are live, and, as I say, I think at this point we better change the picture.
Charlie.
You are now looking at -- well, I guess Charlie is coming back on me at this point. We have seen quite a few dead Iraqi soldiers by the road today. They -- when they would try to put up resistance against the 3rd Infantry Division's 1st Brigade, what we noticed was that all of the dead Iraqi soldiers had gas masks as if, indeed, they are preparing for chemical weapons. That has not happened yet. But, again, more than a few dead Iraqi soldiers. They are moving in anything but what you would call an organized formation.
The Iraqis we see generally are driving pickup trucks or they are riding about in old Soviet vintage armored vehicles. Again no match (INAUDIBLE) armored-piercing shells we're getting from the Iraqis -- or excuse me, that the tanks are firing out.
Charlie, I think you can swing the other way now.
Back on the -- I'm sorry about this jumpy camera movement, but we are under fire. Again, we're back on an M1-A1 Abrams tank. The U.S. Army's 3rd Squadron, 7th Cavalry, rolling in the direction of Baghdad for the past 20 to 30 minutes. This armored battalion has been under almost constant fire. It is not a major force-on-force engagement. Mostly, what we are getting is small arms fire and perhaps mortars from Iraqi soldiers on the sides of the road, off in the distance, at least 400 meters.
When we first crossed the Euphrates River, it was pretty barren in terms of not much of a civilian population. But as we pushed further and closer to Baghdad, we began to see evidence that the Iraqi population was indeed welcoming the U.S. Army convoy, welcoming them northward. The men were rather cautious about waving, but increasingly young women and children were waving almost enthusiastically, and eventually some of the Iraqi men began to flash a "V" sign or flash a thumbs up at the 7th Cavalry as it moved forward.
Again, we continue to roll in the general direction of Baghdad. We have been urn fire for about 30 minutes now. The guns aboard the Bradley armored fighting vehicles, the machine guns, plus their 25 millimeters, have been coughing, and chewing and spitting out weaponry in the directions on either side of the road from whence the fire is coming. And occasionally, you can see that tank in front of us, the M1-A1 Abrams. It has at least three or four times fired its 120 millimeter cannon.
HEMMER: Walt, stick with this picture and stick with your report as well.
There were some questions today at the briefing in Qatar, just a few moments ago, about the ease by which the U.S. military and the 7th Cav appears to be moving in the central part of Iraq toward Baghdad. Also a question there about whether or not ultimately this could be some sort of trap set up by the Iraqis.
The soldiers you are with, have they addressed either one of those issues with you? RODGERS: There's firing off to the right, big firing off to the right. Well, we're taking firing at about 2:00. We think we see the Bradleys hitting something. I saw something that looked like an errant rocket fly up in the air. Sorry, Bill. Again we can't pan much because it would disclose our location, but we continue to be under fire. We're getting very serviceable protection, however, from the Bradleys just up the road ahead of us. But what we're seeing is what appeared to be a small ammunition pillbox going up, fireworks shooting up in the air. The Bradley fighting vehicles returning fire in that direction if there is anything left alive over there.
Bill, in answer to your question as to whether the 7th Cavalry soldiers suspect a trap, for more than a week now, wherever the 7th Cavalry has moved, it has ridden into what you might call traps. That is to say ridden through ambushes, often coming from both sides of the road at the same time.
I'm sorry, I don't remember your second question, Bill, because, again, we were under fire. Try it again, please.
HEMMER: To our viewers, we want to let them know there's a significant delay in the signal, so be patient with us here. I'll try the question again. The ease by which you appear to be moving. I know you are under fire at this point, but the ease you've been moving for several days right now, if you look at the past 48 hours, have the soldiers you're with expressed surprise by that movement?
RODGERS: I think everyone is asking the question, Bill, where is the much-vaunted Republican Guard. The only engagements which the 7th Cavalry has seen to this point appears to be small engagements. That is, detachments of no more than 20 or so Iraqi soldiers setting up bunkers or foxholes close to road intersections. This is not a major engagement in that sense of the word. Are they surprised that it isn't bigger? I suspect they are. I suspect they're wondering what is happening.
But, again, there's firing on both sides of the road. I put the microphone out the window. I hope you can hear it. We can hear machine guns from the Bradley fighting vehicles rattling out in the distance. It appears some of the Iraqi soldiers have set up small sniper-like holes in the middle of agricultural fields. Those are very close. We're getting explosives very close to the vehicle. We can't show you, of course, because, again, anything we show you laterally on either side of the road is going to betray the position of the 7th Cavalry's armored column. So we're staying very tight on the tank in front of us. But let me assure you there are many armored vehicles ahead of this column -- at least, well, I better stay away from the numbers, but there are fighting vehicles up there, and they are firing on both sides of the road, what appears to be bunkers over there, Iraqi bunkers, where infantrymen may have taken places.
But these, again, small sniper engagements at this point. This is not a major force-on-force engagement. The question the soldiers with the 7th Cavalry are asking, is asking, the questions they are asking are virtually the same ones as you are, Bill, where is the Republican Guard? Have they pulled back into the city of Baghdad? This troop, the 7th Cavalry is moving toward Baghdad in the general direction of the 3rd Infantry Division has struck even closer, we believe. The 3rd Infantry Division was the first to cross the Euphrates River again this morning, and they appear to have been taking some fire, because earlier in the direction of Baghdad, we could see plumes of black smoke, four, five or six columns rising. We assume that's from close air support ahead of the 3rd Infantry Division.
One thing that we are not seeing today is the Kaiwa (ph) reconnaissance helicopters flying out in front of the 7th Cav. Also we're not seeing the Apache attack helicopters the Army has. The reason for that is, as the unit moves closer to Baghdad, there is great concern about every freelance Iraqi cowboy soldier having a shoulder fired antiaircraft missile and thus being able to bring down a helicopter. Now this is a push now, almost entirely armored columns, heavy mechanized infantry, 3rd Infantry Division, and presumably the Air Force is flying overhead. Again, we saw plumes of smoke over the southern areas of Baghdad earlier in the day, black smoke which suggests the air force is close in hand. I'm sure every soldier in this unit hopes so -- Bill.
HEMMER: Absolutely dramatic stuff. We want to keep you here as long as we can, want to keep your signal up as much as we can as well. By way of videophone, that's Walt Rodgers moving in the direction of the Iraqi capital of Baghdad, taking on small arms fire, some snipers on both sides of the road, as Walt described.
Curious to know if this is the first time you've encountered any sort of resistance, any sort of firing on either side of the road since you've begun this morning.
Walt, stick with us here, and your photographer, Charlie Miller as well, this time want to bring back in my colleague Paula Zahn, live back in New York, just about 8:10 in the morning there in New York City.
Paula, hello, and good morning from Kuwait.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning, Bill.
I wanted to follow up with some of the questions you were asking Walt about.
Walt, you just described how the Iraqis are setting up these sniper holes in the middle of agricultural fields. Can you give us a sense of how many dead Iraqi soldiers you've seen and what they've been equipped with?
RODGERS: Paula, it's a good question. And north of the Euphrates River, we have seen probably 20 or so Iraqi soldiers dead, lying close to the road, all of them obviously injured with bullet holes. As you looked at them, it was interesting, they say dead people have the look as if they are asleep. There was none of that. This was the look of death via contortion and violence, and the Iraqi soldiers we saw were in pretty grisly positions. What was their equipment? Virtually everyone that our crew has been able to check was carrying a gas mask, suggesting that the Iraqi soldiers in the field are anticipating the use of chemical or biological weapons at some point. I need to stress, that has not happened, at least in the theater in which we're operating, it has not happened at this point. These soldiers were very lightly armed. They have their AK-47 rifles, originally Soviet-manufactured weapons. Now they are made all over the world. The Egyptians make them. The Iranians used to make them.
And at one point, as we were rolling slowly through an Army checkpoint, I saw a 3rd Infantry Division MP standing there with a stockpile of these small arms, the AK-47s and Soviet vintage light machine guns stacked at his feet. Those are, of course, souvenirs of war for the soldiers.
Most of these soldiers appear to be in an Iraqi green uniform. That is the ones we've seen today are in green uniforms. They are not -- they give no evidence of being members of any elite units or even major organized units like the Republican Guard.
For those of our viewers who are familiar with war in the Middle East, often you get freelance gangs, what the army is calling thugs of Iraqi soldiers, and those Iraqi soldiers will travel in groups of 10 to 20, often with a pickup truck, with a machine gun on the back or some sort of armament too heavy to carry, and they ride around the countryside.
As I say, we have seen them digging into some farm houses, and, again, the 7th Cavalry has taken fire from farmhouses in the past 45 minutes. Additionally, they have taken up sniper positions along the road. Again, the camera is focusing very tightly on an M1-A1 Abrams tank. Immediately in front of us, that tank has been engaged in action, combat hostile action, for at least the last half hour, as have most of these vehicles.
The reason we can't give you a bigger picture than that is because we are forbidden by the Pentagon of revealing the topography, the terrain through which the Seventh Cavalry is moving. Any disclosure of that topography would enable the Iraqis to come up with a fairly good estimate of where the 7th Cavalry is, and that would perhaps draw out a much larger unit, a force-on-force unit. Fortunately, that has not happened so far. Again, you are looking at a tank, which is the troop leaders' tank of the Apache troop of the 7th Cavalry. The two soldiers aboard that tank, if you can see them.
On the left is the tank loader Marcucia Posey (ph). I know he's from Alabama, and on the right is Captain Clay Lyle (ph). He's the commander of the Apache troop. They have been firing pretty regularly for 30 to 45 minutes on both sides of the road, and there are a goodly number, I cannot be precise, again, for security reasons. A goodly number of armored vehicles ahead, and behind our position in this armored column -- Paula.
ZAHN: Well, we do need to warn folks who are watching there will be a five-second delay between the questions we ask and when you answer them.
But our Pentagon reporters now confirming that some U.S. troops are inside the so-called red zone, which is an area ringing the capital in which U.S. forces could face the possibility of chemical or biological weapons. Walt, what is the level of concern, without giving away where you are, about that prospect?
RODGERS: Yesterday, when the 7th Cavalry moved up through the Karbala gap, we were in what was called MOPP-2, which meant we were in our chemical suits with the chemical boots on, but we had not been called to put on our gas masks or our gloves. So that was about halfway to a high alert. The reason we donned the relatively high chemical, biological warfare alert the previous day was because when the Seventh Cavalry and First Infantry Division moved through the Karbala gap, it was a fairly narrow geographical area between a lake and a, city and it would have been an ideal place to use chemical or biological weapons.
The units are spread out much more -- much wider today. The unit which I'm sure your Pentagon referring to, was that one of the brigades of the 3rd Infantry Division. I cannot see them, although we saw them earlier in the day. That being the case, I cannot tell you what their MOPP condition is. We are right now in a generally fairly low MOPP condition. That is to say we see a fairly low chemical or biological threat at this immediate moment.
The reason for that, Paula, is because what it takes to fire chemical and biological weapons effectively is a large artillery barrage, and so far, the 7th Cavalry has not encountered or engaged large artillery units.
Again, it's the freelance Iraqi cowboy soldiers off in the fields, groups of 10 to 20. If you are going to use a chemical barrage against a unit like the 7th Cavalry spread out over a number of miles, you have to have a very focused artillery barrage or a multiple launch rocket systems. The Iraqis, of course, have both of those, but that being the case, they have not fired artillery barrages on the 7th Cavalry. Again, what we're taking mostly is small arms fire, and I suspect rocket-propelled grenades -- Paula.
ZAHN: Walter, we're going to stay with your picture and love to have you listen to General Don Shepperd as he joins our conversation.
One of the things that I wanted to point out was coming Major McChrystal (ph) had to say yesterday when he was briefing reporters, and he basically said, as you increasingly threaten the core of the regime, the likelihood of the Iraqis using weapons of mass destruction goes up. He also pointed out that not only have British troops, but U.S. troops have also found caches of chemical protection suits in abandoned buildings.
General Don Shepperd, give us your insight as to what you think we're watching on the screen right now, without compromising the safety of anyone in the 3-7th Cav.
GEN. DON SHEPPERD, (RET.) CNN MILITARY ANALYST: I'm watching Walter Rodgers' great coverage. It appears we are seeing a repeat of what we had seen the last several days before the pause and reconstitution. Moving up roads, as you move up these roads, people popping up from sniper holes. As you pass intersections and vegetation, people popping up out of that with small arms-type fire. But no large vehicles, such as enemy tanks, no organizers.
Now what you normally do when you come up on that's you keep moving. You fire at it as you go. You fire at it with the armored personnel carriers, ahead of the tanks, but you don't let it stop you, and then you go back and mop up afterwards.
Also as Walt said, basically they are in an area right now where, if the Iraqis want to fire chemical weapons, they have to have a large area to fire from artillery or rockets, and so it appears that the movement of coalition forces is so rapid that it may be that we will be able to bypass any areas where they had planned to employ these weapons of mass destruction, Paula. If so, that would be a very good thing.
ZAHN: General, the "New York Times" is reporting this morning that the Baghdad units, the Republican Guard. I shouldn't say Baghdad units, because they are saying that particular division was wiped out, but the Republican Guard being called back into the city, and I'm just curious about what your level of concern is about any possible trappings set here.
SHEPPERD: Yes, well a couple of things on that. We reportedly have the Medina and the Baghdad divisions combat ineffective, essentially destroyed, if you will, or so damaged they are not effective. There are four other Republican Guard divisions we have to worry about, the Hammurabi, Al Nita (ph), the Nebeneezer (ph) and the -- one other, I can't remember off the top of my head -- oh, the Adnan division. We don't know where those division are, but there's no indication they have a good command and control. So it could be that these forces could simply melt away, take off their uniforms, back into the population, and we won't see the organized resistance we were told we'd have to worry about.
So the next few hours will be very key in deciding what will happen, whether it be organized resistance or the forces melting away and collapsing -- Paula.
ZAHN: General Shepperd, thanks so much.
We're going to go back to Walt to bring us up to date on what we are looking at now. He has to maintain a very tight shot to not give away the location of where he is with the 3-7th Cav -- Walt.
RODGERS: Paula, thank you for that explanation. It helps a lot. Exactly where we are and about all we can tell you is that we're following closely behind an M1-A1 Abrams tank of the U.S. Army's 3rd Squadron 7th Cavalry. It is moving in the general direction of Baghdad, as it has been since about late morning Baghdad time.
Again, we cannot show you broader pictures of the tank or the countryside at this point, because that would betray the topography, the landscape. That would, in turn, enable the Iraqis to know exactly where this convoy is moving, and perhaps target it for incoming fire. So we're staying very tight on the rear of that main battle tank, which is just ahead of us at this point. For the past 45 minutes or so, this column, and ahead of that tank, are a number of Bradley fighting vehicles. Ahead of that tank, we have taken sniper fire from both sides of the road, small arms fire, but this is not the Republican Guard. Mostly what we're seeing is resistance fighters in the Iraqi army, if, indeed, as the general suggested, the Iraqis, Republican Guard has retreated into Baghdad itself.
The 3rd Squadron, 7th Cavalry remain on the distant outskirts of Baghdad, and again, what we're seeing is a small groups of Iraqi resistance fighters, 10 to 20, forming in foxholes, or taking shelter behind buildings, or sticking their heads up occasionally, firing in the direction of the convoy, almost as soon as they do, certainly as soon as the soldiers aboard the tanks, and you can see the tank's elevated position up there. As soon as you can see -- as soon as they see where the fire is coming from, they provide covering fire and overwhelmingly wipe out anything that's in the field.
We have seen, as I said, upwards of 20 dead Iraqi soldiers in the field. We believe most of those have been taken out by the 3rd Infantry Division as it passed through, albeit in a different direction.
Earlier in the day, troubling news, of course, that each of those Iraqi soldiers had a gas mask on the time, and that of course portends perhaps a greater difficulty, as these U.S. Army units get closer to Baghdad. Again, as we pass through some agricultural villages in the Mesopotamian Delta, we did find some of the Iraqis were more than a little enthusiastic to see the 7th Cavalry and the other U.S. Army soldiers coming through. The men would very guardedly flash us a thumbs up or give us a "V" for victory sign.
But that being the case, it was very guarded, until we got further and further away. The further away we got from the Euphrates River, and closer to Baghdad, ironically, the more enthusiasm we've encountered among Iraqi farm families, particularly the children and some of the women. I remember one woman who was waving very enthusiastically at the 7th Cavalry, moving through, and she was 400 yards back from the road.
I think we're going to have to change our picture at this point, Paula, because we're coming on recognizable topographical features here. So what we're going to do just put the camera back on me. This is a lip mic. And if you have any questions, we'd be happy to answer them.
But at this point, I think the camera needs to stay on the correspondent. Again, the Pentagon's rules are such that if we come upon a recognizable landmark or anything, a mosque, for example, that the Iraqis would recognize and could call artillery fire in on, we have to shut down the camera, or in this case, at least turn the camera around on the correspondent who is riding in the back seat of the Humvee -- Paula. ZAHN: All right, we are seeing a tight close-up of you now. Unlike previous advances that you have witnessed, you have not seen any Kiowa (ph) or Apache helicopters. Can you explain to us why you think that is?
RODGERS: Yes, Paula, normally these Army units travel with the Kiowa (ph) scout helicopters. It's a light helicopter, basically reconnaissance, although it does have, I believe, 2.75 millimeter rockets on the left pod, and on the right pod it carries one or two Hellfire missiles.
The problem of course is as the 7th Cavalry and other units, like the 3rd Infantry Division, approach the suburbs of southern Baghdad, there is much cover for the Iraqi soldiers to hide in. They have -- they are believed to have an ample supply of shoulder fired SAM, surface to air missiles, which can easily shoot down a helicopter, particularly if it's much over about 50 or 100 feet above the ground.
So the helicopters are not traveling with 7th Cavalry today. We are deprived of our forward eyes and ears. We understand that some Apaches may be flying with the 1st Brigade of the 3rd Infantry Division. If so, that's a tremendous asset for the soldiers in the tanks and in the mechanized units with the 3rd Infantry. Very good asset, because what it means is they can see much further ahead in a potential battle zone than you can see without. But having said that, the risk of Iraqis shooting them down with shoulder-fired missiles is so great at this point, particularly as the Army approaches the southern suburbs of Baghdad. The risk is so great that they just simply will not put up the helicopters or at least not the Kiowas (ph), which normally fly, weather permitting, with the 7th Cavalry -- Paula.
ZAHN: We're going to stay with the picture and hope we can continue to sustain this reporting as you continue to be on the move here.
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Aired April 3, 2003 - 07:58 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Walt Rodgers is now live by way of videophone. There's a bit of a delay here, about five seconds, but, Walt, if you can hear me, tell us what's happening there.
WALTER RODGERS, CNN ANCHOR: Bill, you're watching an Apache, the leader of the Apache troop. That is the Seventh Calvary M-1, A-1 Abram tank. It's a very tight shot. We cannot get too broad on this, because we would be revealing the kinds of topographical features about the location of the 7th Calvary, which we're forbidden to reveal. Nonetheless, we've been rolling down a road, moving closer and closer to Baghdad. That big 120 millimeter gun, seconds before you came to aspire into the countryside. We can hear shooting all about us, particularly from the 25 millimeter aboard the Bradley fighting vehicles.
Again, the 7th Calvary, along with its parent unit, the 3rd Infantry Division is definitely pushing in the direction of Baghdad, much closer than yesterday. We cannot give you any coordinates or any of our locations, of course.
But about two hours ago, we crossed the Euphrates River again at a crossing that had been earlier been taken by the 1st Brigade of the 3rd Infantry Division. That 1st Brigade of the 3rd Infantry Division had to fight its way somewhat through the territory. They are not encountering what you would call large Republican Guard units, but there are freelance Iraqi fighters out there, and they are firing at the convoys, both the 3rd Infantry Divisions, 1st Brigade, and also the 7th Cavalry. We can hear shooting all about us as we go now.
Mostly what we've encountered, 7th Cavalry, despite the small arms fire and the firing from the sides of the road, which we're now traveling, mostly what you're seeing is -- what we're seeing is small fox holes, small bunkers at intersections on small back country roads. The Iraqi soldiers would dig into those. They were no match for the heavy armored column, which you can see ahead of us now. Again, we're having to give you a very tight picture with very little sense of panorama, no sense of panorama.
As a matter of fact, in a few seconds we're going to have to drop this picture or at least swing back to me. The reason being, of course, that we would be in a location which would reveal our location.
Again, the 7th Cavalry fighting its way towards Baghdad as I am speaking to you. These pictures are live, and, as I say, I think at this point we better change the picture.
Charlie.
You are now looking at -- well, I guess Charlie is coming back on me at this point. We have seen quite a few dead Iraqi soldiers by the road today. They -- when they would try to put up resistance against the 3rd Infantry Division's 1st Brigade, what we noticed was that all of the dead Iraqi soldiers had gas masks as if, indeed, they are preparing for chemical weapons. That has not happened yet. But, again, more than a few dead Iraqi soldiers. They are moving in anything but what you would call an organized formation.
The Iraqis we see generally are driving pickup trucks or they are riding about in old Soviet vintage armored vehicles. Again no match (INAUDIBLE) armored-piercing shells we're getting from the Iraqis -- or excuse me, that the tanks are firing out.
Charlie, I think you can swing the other way now.
Back on the -- I'm sorry about this jumpy camera movement, but we are under fire. Again, we're back on an M1-A1 Abrams tank. The U.S. Army's 3rd Squadron, 7th Cavalry, rolling in the direction of Baghdad for the past 20 to 30 minutes. This armored battalion has been under almost constant fire. It is not a major force-on-force engagement. Mostly, what we are getting is small arms fire and perhaps mortars from Iraqi soldiers on the sides of the road, off in the distance, at least 400 meters.
When we first crossed the Euphrates River, it was pretty barren in terms of not much of a civilian population. But as we pushed further and closer to Baghdad, we began to see evidence that the Iraqi population was indeed welcoming the U.S. Army convoy, welcoming them northward. The men were rather cautious about waving, but increasingly young women and children were waving almost enthusiastically, and eventually some of the Iraqi men began to flash a "V" sign or flash a thumbs up at the 7th Cavalry as it moved forward.
Again, we continue to roll in the general direction of Baghdad. We have been urn fire for about 30 minutes now. The guns aboard the Bradley armored fighting vehicles, the machine guns, plus their 25 millimeters, have been coughing, and chewing and spitting out weaponry in the directions on either side of the road from whence the fire is coming. And occasionally, you can see that tank in front of us, the M1-A1 Abrams. It has at least three or four times fired its 120 millimeter cannon.
HEMMER: Walt, stick with this picture and stick with your report as well.
There were some questions today at the briefing in Qatar, just a few moments ago, about the ease by which the U.S. military and the 7th Cav appears to be moving in the central part of Iraq toward Baghdad. Also a question there about whether or not ultimately this could be some sort of trap set up by the Iraqis.
The soldiers you are with, have they addressed either one of those issues with you? RODGERS: There's firing off to the right, big firing off to the right. Well, we're taking firing at about 2:00. We think we see the Bradleys hitting something. I saw something that looked like an errant rocket fly up in the air. Sorry, Bill. Again we can't pan much because it would disclose our location, but we continue to be under fire. We're getting very serviceable protection, however, from the Bradleys just up the road ahead of us. But what we're seeing is what appeared to be a small ammunition pillbox going up, fireworks shooting up in the air. The Bradley fighting vehicles returning fire in that direction if there is anything left alive over there.
Bill, in answer to your question as to whether the 7th Cavalry soldiers suspect a trap, for more than a week now, wherever the 7th Cavalry has moved, it has ridden into what you might call traps. That is to say ridden through ambushes, often coming from both sides of the road at the same time.
I'm sorry, I don't remember your second question, Bill, because, again, we were under fire. Try it again, please.
HEMMER: To our viewers, we want to let them know there's a significant delay in the signal, so be patient with us here. I'll try the question again. The ease by which you appear to be moving. I know you are under fire at this point, but the ease you've been moving for several days right now, if you look at the past 48 hours, have the soldiers you're with expressed surprise by that movement?
RODGERS: I think everyone is asking the question, Bill, where is the much-vaunted Republican Guard. The only engagements which the 7th Cavalry has seen to this point appears to be small engagements. That is, detachments of no more than 20 or so Iraqi soldiers setting up bunkers or foxholes close to road intersections. This is not a major engagement in that sense of the word. Are they surprised that it isn't bigger? I suspect they are. I suspect they're wondering what is happening.
But, again, there's firing on both sides of the road. I put the microphone out the window. I hope you can hear it. We can hear machine guns from the Bradley fighting vehicles rattling out in the distance. It appears some of the Iraqi soldiers have set up small sniper-like holes in the middle of agricultural fields. Those are very close. We're getting explosives very close to the vehicle. We can't show you, of course, because, again, anything we show you laterally on either side of the road is going to betray the position of the 7th Cavalry's armored column. So we're staying very tight on the tank in front of us. But let me assure you there are many armored vehicles ahead of this column -- at least, well, I better stay away from the numbers, but there are fighting vehicles up there, and they are firing on both sides of the road, what appears to be bunkers over there, Iraqi bunkers, where infantrymen may have taken places.
But these, again, small sniper engagements at this point. This is not a major force-on-force engagement. The question the soldiers with the 7th Cavalry are asking, is asking, the questions they are asking are virtually the same ones as you are, Bill, where is the Republican Guard? Have they pulled back into the city of Baghdad? This troop, the 7th Cavalry is moving toward Baghdad in the general direction of the 3rd Infantry Division has struck even closer, we believe. The 3rd Infantry Division was the first to cross the Euphrates River again this morning, and they appear to have been taking some fire, because earlier in the direction of Baghdad, we could see plumes of black smoke, four, five or six columns rising. We assume that's from close air support ahead of the 3rd Infantry Division.
One thing that we are not seeing today is the Kaiwa (ph) reconnaissance helicopters flying out in front of the 7th Cav. Also we're not seeing the Apache attack helicopters the Army has. The reason for that is, as the unit moves closer to Baghdad, there is great concern about every freelance Iraqi cowboy soldier having a shoulder fired antiaircraft missile and thus being able to bring down a helicopter. Now this is a push now, almost entirely armored columns, heavy mechanized infantry, 3rd Infantry Division, and presumably the Air Force is flying overhead. Again, we saw plumes of smoke over the southern areas of Baghdad earlier in the day, black smoke which suggests the air force is close in hand. I'm sure every soldier in this unit hopes so -- Bill.
HEMMER: Absolutely dramatic stuff. We want to keep you here as long as we can, want to keep your signal up as much as we can as well. By way of videophone, that's Walt Rodgers moving in the direction of the Iraqi capital of Baghdad, taking on small arms fire, some snipers on both sides of the road, as Walt described.
Curious to know if this is the first time you've encountered any sort of resistance, any sort of firing on either side of the road since you've begun this morning.
Walt, stick with us here, and your photographer, Charlie Miller as well, this time want to bring back in my colleague Paula Zahn, live back in New York, just about 8:10 in the morning there in New York City.
Paula, hello, and good morning from Kuwait.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning, Bill.
I wanted to follow up with some of the questions you were asking Walt about.
Walt, you just described how the Iraqis are setting up these sniper holes in the middle of agricultural fields. Can you give us a sense of how many dead Iraqi soldiers you've seen and what they've been equipped with?
RODGERS: Paula, it's a good question. And north of the Euphrates River, we have seen probably 20 or so Iraqi soldiers dead, lying close to the road, all of them obviously injured with bullet holes. As you looked at them, it was interesting, they say dead people have the look as if they are asleep. There was none of that. This was the look of death via contortion and violence, and the Iraqi soldiers we saw were in pretty grisly positions. What was their equipment? Virtually everyone that our crew has been able to check was carrying a gas mask, suggesting that the Iraqi soldiers in the field are anticipating the use of chemical or biological weapons at some point. I need to stress, that has not happened, at least in the theater in which we're operating, it has not happened at this point. These soldiers were very lightly armed. They have their AK-47 rifles, originally Soviet-manufactured weapons. Now they are made all over the world. The Egyptians make them. The Iranians used to make them.
And at one point, as we were rolling slowly through an Army checkpoint, I saw a 3rd Infantry Division MP standing there with a stockpile of these small arms, the AK-47s and Soviet vintage light machine guns stacked at his feet. Those are, of course, souvenirs of war for the soldiers.
Most of these soldiers appear to be in an Iraqi green uniform. That is the ones we've seen today are in green uniforms. They are not -- they give no evidence of being members of any elite units or even major organized units like the Republican Guard.
For those of our viewers who are familiar with war in the Middle East, often you get freelance gangs, what the army is calling thugs of Iraqi soldiers, and those Iraqi soldiers will travel in groups of 10 to 20, often with a pickup truck, with a machine gun on the back or some sort of armament too heavy to carry, and they ride around the countryside.
As I say, we have seen them digging into some farm houses, and, again, the 7th Cavalry has taken fire from farmhouses in the past 45 minutes. Additionally, they have taken up sniper positions along the road. Again, the camera is focusing very tightly on an M1-A1 Abrams tank. Immediately in front of us, that tank has been engaged in action, combat hostile action, for at least the last half hour, as have most of these vehicles.
The reason we can't give you a bigger picture than that is because we are forbidden by the Pentagon of revealing the topography, the terrain through which the Seventh Cavalry is moving. Any disclosure of that topography would enable the Iraqis to come up with a fairly good estimate of where the 7th Cavalry is, and that would perhaps draw out a much larger unit, a force-on-force unit. Fortunately, that has not happened so far. Again, you are looking at a tank, which is the troop leaders' tank of the Apache troop of the 7th Cavalry. The two soldiers aboard that tank, if you can see them.
On the left is the tank loader Marcucia Posey (ph). I know he's from Alabama, and on the right is Captain Clay Lyle (ph). He's the commander of the Apache troop. They have been firing pretty regularly for 30 to 45 minutes on both sides of the road, and there are a goodly number, I cannot be precise, again, for security reasons. A goodly number of armored vehicles ahead, and behind our position in this armored column -- Paula.
ZAHN: Well, we do need to warn folks who are watching there will be a five-second delay between the questions we ask and when you answer them.
But our Pentagon reporters now confirming that some U.S. troops are inside the so-called red zone, which is an area ringing the capital in which U.S. forces could face the possibility of chemical or biological weapons. Walt, what is the level of concern, without giving away where you are, about that prospect?
RODGERS: Yesterday, when the 7th Cavalry moved up through the Karbala gap, we were in what was called MOPP-2, which meant we were in our chemical suits with the chemical boots on, but we had not been called to put on our gas masks or our gloves. So that was about halfway to a high alert. The reason we donned the relatively high chemical, biological warfare alert the previous day was because when the Seventh Cavalry and First Infantry Division moved through the Karbala gap, it was a fairly narrow geographical area between a lake and a, city and it would have been an ideal place to use chemical or biological weapons.
The units are spread out much more -- much wider today. The unit which I'm sure your Pentagon referring to, was that one of the brigades of the 3rd Infantry Division. I cannot see them, although we saw them earlier in the day. That being the case, I cannot tell you what their MOPP condition is. We are right now in a generally fairly low MOPP condition. That is to say we see a fairly low chemical or biological threat at this immediate moment.
The reason for that, Paula, is because what it takes to fire chemical and biological weapons effectively is a large artillery barrage, and so far, the 7th Cavalry has not encountered or engaged large artillery units.
Again, it's the freelance Iraqi cowboy soldiers off in the fields, groups of 10 to 20. If you are going to use a chemical barrage against a unit like the 7th Cavalry spread out over a number of miles, you have to have a very focused artillery barrage or a multiple launch rocket systems. The Iraqis, of course, have both of those, but that being the case, they have not fired artillery barrages on the 7th Cavalry. Again, what we're taking mostly is small arms fire, and I suspect rocket-propelled grenades -- Paula.
ZAHN: Walter, we're going to stay with your picture and love to have you listen to General Don Shepperd as he joins our conversation.
One of the things that I wanted to point out was coming Major McChrystal (ph) had to say yesterday when he was briefing reporters, and he basically said, as you increasingly threaten the core of the regime, the likelihood of the Iraqis using weapons of mass destruction goes up. He also pointed out that not only have British troops, but U.S. troops have also found caches of chemical protection suits in abandoned buildings.
General Don Shepperd, give us your insight as to what you think we're watching on the screen right now, without compromising the safety of anyone in the 3-7th Cav.
GEN. DON SHEPPERD, (RET.) CNN MILITARY ANALYST: I'm watching Walter Rodgers' great coverage. It appears we are seeing a repeat of what we had seen the last several days before the pause and reconstitution. Moving up roads, as you move up these roads, people popping up from sniper holes. As you pass intersections and vegetation, people popping up out of that with small arms-type fire. But no large vehicles, such as enemy tanks, no organizers.
Now what you normally do when you come up on that's you keep moving. You fire at it as you go. You fire at it with the armored personnel carriers, ahead of the tanks, but you don't let it stop you, and then you go back and mop up afterwards.
Also as Walt said, basically they are in an area right now where, if the Iraqis want to fire chemical weapons, they have to have a large area to fire from artillery or rockets, and so it appears that the movement of coalition forces is so rapid that it may be that we will be able to bypass any areas where they had planned to employ these weapons of mass destruction, Paula. If so, that would be a very good thing.
ZAHN: General, the "New York Times" is reporting this morning that the Baghdad units, the Republican Guard. I shouldn't say Baghdad units, because they are saying that particular division was wiped out, but the Republican Guard being called back into the city, and I'm just curious about what your level of concern is about any possible trappings set here.
SHEPPERD: Yes, well a couple of things on that. We reportedly have the Medina and the Baghdad divisions combat ineffective, essentially destroyed, if you will, or so damaged they are not effective. There are four other Republican Guard divisions we have to worry about, the Hammurabi, Al Nita (ph), the Nebeneezer (ph) and the -- one other, I can't remember off the top of my head -- oh, the Adnan division. We don't know where those division are, but there's no indication they have a good command and control. So it could be that these forces could simply melt away, take off their uniforms, back into the population, and we won't see the organized resistance we were told we'd have to worry about.
So the next few hours will be very key in deciding what will happen, whether it be organized resistance or the forces melting away and collapsing -- Paula.
ZAHN: General Shepperd, thanks so much.
We're going to go back to Walt to bring us up to date on what we are looking at now. He has to maintain a very tight shot to not give away the location of where he is with the 3-7th Cav -- Walt.
RODGERS: Paula, thank you for that explanation. It helps a lot. Exactly where we are and about all we can tell you is that we're following closely behind an M1-A1 Abrams tank of the U.S. Army's 3rd Squadron 7th Cavalry. It is moving in the general direction of Baghdad, as it has been since about late morning Baghdad time.
Again, we cannot show you broader pictures of the tank or the countryside at this point, because that would betray the topography, the landscape. That would, in turn, enable the Iraqis to know exactly where this convoy is moving, and perhaps target it for incoming fire. So we're staying very tight on the rear of that main battle tank, which is just ahead of us at this point. For the past 45 minutes or so, this column, and ahead of that tank, are a number of Bradley fighting vehicles. Ahead of that tank, we have taken sniper fire from both sides of the road, small arms fire, but this is not the Republican Guard. Mostly what we're seeing is resistance fighters in the Iraqi army, if, indeed, as the general suggested, the Iraqis, Republican Guard has retreated into Baghdad itself.
The 3rd Squadron, 7th Cavalry remain on the distant outskirts of Baghdad, and again, what we're seeing is a small groups of Iraqi resistance fighters, 10 to 20, forming in foxholes, or taking shelter behind buildings, or sticking their heads up occasionally, firing in the direction of the convoy, almost as soon as they do, certainly as soon as the soldiers aboard the tanks, and you can see the tank's elevated position up there. As soon as you can see -- as soon as they see where the fire is coming from, they provide covering fire and overwhelmingly wipe out anything that's in the field.
We have seen, as I said, upwards of 20 dead Iraqi soldiers in the field. We believe most of those have been taken out by the 3rd Infantry Division as it passed through, albeit in a different direction.
Earlier in the day, troubling news, of course, that each of those Iraqi soldiers had a gas mask on the time, and that of course portends perhaps a greater difficulty, as these U.S. Army units get closer to Baghdad. Again, as we pass through some agricultural villages in the Mesopotamian Delta, we did find some of the Iraqis were more than a little enthusiastic to see the 7th Cavalry and the other U.S. Army soldiers coming through. The men would very guardedly flash us a thumbs up or give us a "V" for victory sign.
But that being the case, it was very guarded, until we got further and further away. The further away we got from the Euphrates River, and closer to Baghdad, ironically, the more enthusiasm we've encountered among Iraqi farm families, particularly the children and some of the women. I remember one woman who was waving very enthusiastically at the 7th Cavalry, moving through, and she was 400 yards back from the road.
I think we're going to have to change our picture at this point, Paula, because we're coming on recognizable topographical features here. So what we're going to do just put the camera back on me. This is a lip mic. And if you have any questions, we'd be happy to answer them.
But at this point, I think the camera needs to stay on the correspondent. Again, the Pentagon's rules are such that if we come upon a recognizable landmark or anything, a mosque, for example, that the Iraqis would recognize and could call artillery fire in on, we have to shut down the camera, or in this case, at least turn the camera around on the correspondent who is riding in the back seat of the Humvee -- Paula. ZAHN: All right, we are seeing a tight close-up of you now. Unlike previous advances that you have witnessed, you have not seen any Kiowa (ph) or Apache helicopters. Can you explain to us why you think that is?
RODGERS: Yes, Paula, normally these Army units travel with the Kiowa (ph) scout helicopters. It's a light helicopter, basically reconnaissance, although it does have, I believe, 2.75 millimeter rockets on the left pod, and on the right pod it carries one or two Hellfire missiles.
The problem of course is as the 7th Cavalry and other units, like the 3rd Infantry Division, approach the suburbs of southern Baghdad, there is much cover for the Iraqi soldiers to hide in. They have -- they are believed to have an ample supply of shoulder fired SAM, surface to air missiles, which can easily shoot down a helicopter, particularly if it's much over about 50 or 100 feet above the ground.
So the helicopters are not traveling with 7th Cavalry today. We are deprived of our forward eyes and ears. We understand that some Apaches may be flying with the 1st Brigade of the 3rd Infantry Division. If so, that's a tremendous asset for the soldiers in the tanks and in the mechanized units with the 3rd Infantry. Very good asset, because what it means is they can see much further ahead in a potential battle zone than you can see without. But having said that, the risk of Iraqis shooting them down with shoulder-fired missiles is so great at this point, particularly as the Army approaches the southern suburbs of Baghdad. The risk is so great that they just simply will not put up the helicopters or at least not the Kiowas (ph), which normally fly, weather permitting, with the 7th Cavalry -- Paula.
ZAHN: We're going to stay with the picture and hope we can continue to sustain this reporting as you continue to be on the move here.
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