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American Morning
7th Cavalry Pushing Closer and Closer to Baghdad
Aired April 03, 2003 - 08:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: A Reuters correspondent saying that they were six miles somewhere maybe on the south, maybe on the western edge of the outskirt. Another report out there that U.S. forces were closing in on the airport west of the city. Again, all this stuff unconfirmed on the ground, but this is what we are getting right now. It continues to be the headline of the day, as U.S. forces again much like yesterday, get closer and closer to the Iraqi capital. We'll keep a close eye on that. As soon as we get Walt back we'll bring it to you. But for now, let's say hello to Leon Harris, the latest developments and there are many so far on this Thursday morning. Here's Leon in Atlanta. Good morning.
LEON HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning, Bill, and good morning, folks. It has been quite a morning. Our coverage of the war in Iraq continues with a look now at what's happening this hour in addition to what you've been watching happen.
As Walter Rodgers just reported, you saw the 7th Cavalry pushing closer and closer to Baghdad right now. "Reuters" is that reporting some U.S. troops now are as close as six miles from the southern edge of the capital city. Military officials say that they have faced little resistance from Iraq's Republican Guard.
Now here's what's happening -- we have other news as well to report this morning. Central Command is casting doubt on reports that a U.S. helicopter lost in south central Iraq was shot down. The Pentagon has reported that a Black Hawk was downed last night, killing seven people. Central Command says the number of casualties right now is unknown.
Now, a search is still under way in southern Iraq for the pilot of a U.S. Navy F-18 Hornet. The jet similar to the one you're seeing here, went down overnight, and the pilot is believed to have safely ejected. The cause of that downing is unknown right now.
But after the crash Iraqi TV aired video of what it claimed to be an American plane shot down near Basra. The U.S. military has not commented on whether it's the lost Hornet or not.
British forces are unleashing heavy firepower in Basra. Iraqi paramilitary forces were bombarded this morning with long-range artillery as the British continue their advance into the southern city. Coalition forces seized a food warehouse outside of Basra and that could help to alleviate food shortages among the civilians there. Good news for now.
CNN's coverage of the war in Iraq continues right now. PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning and welcome. I'm Paula Zahn in New York. Thanks so much for being with us today. For those of you who joined us at the top of the hour, we think you've probably been just as riveted as we have been by some pictures that were sent to us by Walt Rodgers who is embedded with the 3-7th Cav. This is what it has looked like, as his division, along with the 3rd Infantry Division has moved in on Baghdad.
We have to be very careful, as Walt has been, not to show any of the topographical features along the way that might betray where these troops are right now. About all Walt was able to confirm was that about two hours ago he crossed the Euphrates River again, that he did not encounter large rebel guard units. Instead, he described them as freelance Iraqi military out there.
He said it is his belief the Iraqi have dug small foxholes on back country roads and in the middle of agricultural fields. That is where they have taken some small arms fire from. He also described having seen at least 20 dead Iraqi soldiers. He said they all had gas masks on them. Not wearing them, but at least carrying them.
And the reason why that is important, the Pentagon has warned, as U.S. and coalition forces get closer to closer to Baghdad, the threat of the Iraqis using weapons of mass destruction goes up. Walt Rodgers saying, while the 3-7th Cav. doesn't know exactly what to expect, that certainly is on their minds. Now, Bill, you can please join in and help our audience get a better context of what they are watching.
But it was just remarkable as you and I have watched this over the last 40 minutes. If you see the camera do a quick swing from this tight close-up to Walt Rodgers face it is because they might have been going by something architectural, a mosque or something that could have put their position at risk. Bill, this has been amazing...
(CROSSTALK)
ZAHN: ... to watch, hasn't it?
HEMMER: Yes, it certainly has. Walt has been as the military likes to say at the tip of the sphere. Essentially, the 7th Cavalry is the scout unit essentially for the 3rd Infantry Division. This is the unit that always leads the way for the 3rd I.D. They try to find some sort of safe route north and that's been their primary responsibility for the past two weeks running.
Once they crossed into Iraq on the 20, 21 of March, if memory serves me, they're moving up to the southern and central part of the country and now Walt apparently somehow on the outskirts of Baghdad. They're not quite sure how far outside. I hear something in my ear here, Paula, that might indicate Walt's back. If he is, we'll get our viewers back to him.
But he was reporting about the small arms fire on both sides of the road, that M1A1 tank and the Bradley fighting vehicles move their way towards Baghdad. He said there was firing on both sides of the road, perhaps sniper positions. As Walt clearly pointed out, though, those positions taken up by Iraqi soldiers are simply no match for this 70-ton M1A1 tank largely regarded by the U.S. military as the best tank in the world.
There are some other militaries around the world who would disagree with that, but nonetheless, the U.S. is completely confident and comfortable with the M1A1. By the way, it has the capability, Paula, to move 50 miles an hour in open desert and fire from its main toric almost two miles down range. It has enormous capabilities and now we have seen, as Walt calls it, this wave of steel move north now and encroaching now on the capital city of Baghdad.
ZAHN: As we watch these pictures, we're going to bring General Shepperd into our discussion. General Shepperd, I was struck by something that Walt described and once again, he's very limited about what he's allowed to tell us and for a very good reason. We don't want him to compromise the safety of the troops there. But he did describe seeing plumes of smoke in southern Baghdad, which indicated to him the U.S. Air Force is near at hand.
MAJ. GEN. DON SHEPPERD, U.S. AIR FORCE (RET.): Yes Paula, it appears from other reports we've heard that coalition forces are within five or six miles of the southern area of Baghdad. We don't know where Walt Rodgers is, but of his great reporting, it's obvious that he is not meeting organized resistance that was feared by the coalition forces. In other words, they thought they were going to run into the organized resistance from the Republican Guard divisions that would be well entrenched in Baghdad. That has not happened yet. But much still to play out over the coming hours, Paula. The coalition forces are going to have to be very careful and cautious as they approach Baghdad.
ZAHN: So based on what you are seeing, General Shepperd, would that make you inclined to believe there's some truth to the reporting in "The New York Times" this morning that the Republican Guard has been called back into Baghdad?
SHEPPERD: I think it's reasonable to assume that they have been called back into Baghdad. The question is, is there any effective command and control that can coordinate their movement or coordinate the fighting or are they left on their own and, therefore, will melt away? Paula, it's a very good possibility that we will see in the next few hours to two days what we saw in south Vietnam in 1975, which is the rapid collapse and implosion of the south Vietnamese forces. The same can happen to the Republican Guard and it can be much easier in Baghdad, rather than that very, very tough fight that everyone was predicting, Paula.
ZAHN: Well we learned at the briefing, General Shepperd, this morning that coalition air strikes have heavily bombarded command and control centers. We've been quoting increasing evidence the regime cannot control forces throughout most of the country. Do you think that is what we're beginning to see right now?
SHEPPERD: Paula, I believe you're seeing the combined effects of all the military accidents taking place. The thing that occur to me are the special forces raids that have enabled us to maintain command and control of coalition forces, command and control of key bridges, command and control of dams, that type of thing, so that they cannot be destroyed and then selected attacks on leadership and command and control targets all over the country by special operations and the Air Forces from all of the services, in addition to the very, very rapid movement of the ground forces. All of this is combining to add up to a picture that says the Iraqis are being overwhelmed and cannot control their own forces, Paula.
ZAHN: The other thing that was confirmed at this briefing a little over an hour ago was that special operation forces raided a palace of Saddam Hussein's I guess about 56 miles outside of the city, a place, I guess, where his son spent a lot of time too. What is the significance of the announcement of that?
SHEPPERD: It's very significant. This is the second largest palace, only -- second only to Saddam Hussein's main palace in the area of Tikrit, north of Baghdad. What this says is that coalition forces, Special Forces, have very, very good intelligence on where things are and where they want to hit. You don't just wonder into a palace and start looking around.
You have specific objectives that you want to take and they had the ability to know where to look to get in and get out very fast. Evidently there were no losses and they were able to get at least documents, if not capture personnel. So this is a very significant raid, and it indicates the ability of coalition forces to strike anywhere in the country, even at the heart of the regime when General Franks decides he wants to, Paula.
ZAHN: And General Shepperd, before we let you go, for folks that weren't with us at the top of the hour, I'd love for you to put into context for them why it is so important that we are watching this reporting that is coming from Walt Rodgers of the 3-7th Cav.
SHEPPERD: Well I think a couple of things. You're getting a sense, first of all, that there is still resistance everywhere and you're getting a sense of how coalition forces operate. They don't stop every time they're shot at to clear a village or an intersection. They move on and they clean up afterwards. This rapid movement allows them to overwhelm Iraqi forces and perhaps even go well past the red line and interdict forces that were going to employ weapons of mass destruction.
So I think you are getting a real feeling of combat. You're also getting a good feeling of operational security. Walt Rodgers is tight on the commander's tank, a great place to draw fire, but he's not revealing where he or where the coalition forces are, Paula.
ZAHN: General Shepperd, thanks so much. Please stand by because we're going to try to keep up this shot as long as we can. And let's bring Bill now into the conversation -- Bill.
HEMMER: Yes, Paula, yesterday CENTCOM said the dagger is clearly pointed to the Baghdad regime. Today they reiterated by saying there is increasing evidence the regime cannot control its forces, and at the end, Vincent Brooks says we can't tell who is in charge. If we look at the picture from Walt and if we pick things up with CNN's Martin Savidge embedded with the U.S. Marines, yesterday Marty said the road toward Baghdad from his location was bumper-to-bumper traffic.
All military vehicles, almost all from the U.S. Marines. Marty is back by way of videophone to tell us what's happening there now. Marty, good afternoon.
MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hello Bill. We just crossed over the Tigris River. We are with the field train, which is part of the 1st Battalion, 7th Marines, rushing now to catch up with the main body of that element. We are passing through, have passed through the very ancient and also key city of Al Kut, which is located on the Tigris.
This is where it was believed that there were elements of the Baghdad division of the Republican Guard. This morning there was heavy artillery that was focused in this particular area designed to take out those last remaining pockets of resistance from the Republican Guard and then the 1st Battalion, 7th Marines went in. We were not able to go with them at that time.
We had a cameraman who was up front. We're hoping to link up with him to find out exactly how it went. There was artillery before the Marines went in. There was some supporting artillery, again, from the Marine as those units went into place, but then things got very quiet. That is a good sign, actually, if you don't have to keep firing (UNINTELLIGIBLE) guns because it would tend to mean that you are not meeting a lot of opposition or that whatever opposition they were facing they were capable of handing with the armored personnel carriers with their 50 gallon machine guns, not to mention the Humvees armed with (UNINTELLIGIBLE) designed to take out armor or bunkers.
So, getting across the Tigris, moving again, this time heading in the general direction towards Baghdad is just a continuation of this movement that we are sort of the rear elements of. You can obviously understand that the Marines have already made (UNINTELLIGIBLE) move across the Tigris and are continuing to drive on. It's always been their thinking that should they meet opposition they would peel off specific units to deal with it, but not stop the full force of the drive towards Baghdad.
In other words, a leapfrog would be in effect. Other units behind would continue to drive forward while those forward elements that became engaged would continue to fight. But, again, it does not appear that they faced any serious opposition so far - Bill.
HEMMER: Yes, Marty, we were trying to get the information from Walt's perspective with the Army. What's the Marine's position right now about the relative ease by which they are traveling and do they believe there could be a trap ahead for them near or in Baghdad?
SAVIDGE: Well, certainly, when you talk to the average Marine here they will tell you they believe that Saddam Hussein has got another trick up his sleeve. I think that's probably good, cautious thinking on the part of the Marines. They don't like to think it's going to be too easy for them and there are a great many Marines who say they'd still like to be a part of this fight that haven't had the chance.
However, that being said, obviously Marine commanders will take whatever opportunity comes their way, and that's what they say they are cashing in on now. They have seen movement, they have seen changes of position on the part of the Republican Guard. They also know it's been degraded or its fighting strength has been cut down by air strengths -- air strikes that is. So we'll try to keep the camera focused on whatever we may see here, but we just passed the other side of the vehicle what appeared to be damaged Iraqi military hardware.
But, again if they have seen opportunities, they strike at those opportunities. They see movement, they believe that is an opportunity to strike, and that's what they have been doing. Is this some sort of trap? Well, nobody here is predicting that at this moment and as the Marines always say, hey, they're ready for anything - Bill.
HEMMER: Yes, Marty, earlier today the 3rd I.D., members of that unit anyway were told to put on boots as an added precaution in the event that chemical or biological weapons may be directed at them. I stress there's been no evidence that the Iraqis have used that just yet. But your condition right now with your Mach gear, your chemical weapons gear, what is it at this point?
SAVIDGE: Same condition as Walt is under. We're in what's called Mach-2 (ph). That means Mach-1 (ph) is the full chemical suit, pants and jacket. Then we were told yesterday before we began to move, to put on the boots so that takes us to Mach-2 (ph). The only other additional hardware you would put on would be the face mask and then finally the gloves.
We haven't come to that level yet, but certainly out of precaution because they know that there is this red zone, the Pentagon has a vision. Nobody wants to take any chances. Nobody second guess. They air on the side of caution, so we do the same, and we have worn these chem suits (UNINTELLIGIBLE) and did wear boots from the moment it kicked off. Now the boots were taken off after a couple of days, but we have been in chem suits ever since the ground offensive began -- Bill.
HEMMER: Marty, thanks. Martin Savidge, again, by way of videophone with photographer Scott McGweny (ph) on the road to Baghdad. Marty is with the Marines there, and Paula, earlier today the information minister in Baghdad said that any reports of the U.S. military getting closer on the outskirts of Baghdad were just - quote - unquote - "silly". He says there is no evidence to indicate that, but clearly we can see through Walt and Marty that it's happening as we speak.
ZAHN: Yes, what we're not certain of, or if we are, can't report is obviously how close to the southern edge of the city there. Thanks Bill.
Coming up, urban combat, with the battle of Baghdad looming closer, what lesson is the U.S. military drawing from Israel's experience? That's coming up. Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ZAHN: You're looking at a live picture of downtown Baghdad, 5:47 p.m. in Iraq. The military is getting ready for a potentially dangerous kind of urban combat in Baghdad. Coalition commanders are reportedly studying tactics used by Israeli forces in urban settings in Lebanon and on the West Bank.
Joining us now from Washington with more, terrorism expert Shmuel Bar of the Institute of Political and Strategy in Israel. Thanks so much for being with us this morning, sir.
SHMUEL BAR, INSTITUTE OF POLITICAL & STRATEGY: Thank you. Good morning.
ZAHN: And as we have just seen, U.S. forces getting closer and closer to Baghdad. What is it, do you think, coalition forces can learn about Israel's experience in urban combat?
BAR: I think we have to be rather cautious about drawing analogies. But generally there are two differences, two main differences between our experience and the Americans' experience. The first is, of course, the American forces versus the Israeli forces. We didn't have a strategy of changing any great political culture and changing regime in a country. When we embarked on our (UNINTELLIGIBLE) operation in Beirut, we refrained from entering Beirut just for the very reason that you are hesitant regarding the entrance to Baghdad. At that point we felt that we could use the support of local forces, the Christian forces, and, of course, we made a very bad mistake in that.
ZAHN: Well let's talk about some of the risks that U.S. soldiers and British soldiers are up against here. We all know that four American soldiers lost their lives last week in a car bombing, and I know you have said that it is nearly impossible to protect the troops against that kind of action, particularly at a time when you're trying to prove to civilians you're there as a liberator and not an invader.
BAR: This is probably the main problem of holding the high moral ground and at the same time trying to perform as the military would perform, according to military logic. The military logic, of course, says that when you see somebody coming near you and you are not aware of his intentions and you have a split second to decide, then you have to take action. The more that you do that and the more mistakes of that sort you have, the more you're turning the population against you, and of course, you are creating more of the resistance or suicide bombers.
I wouldn't equate the sort of suicide bombing that you have seen in Iraq today, in the last few days, with what we have seen. The -- an action by a military officer, an Iraqi military officer isn't the same as the situation of political correctness of suicide bombing that we see among the Palestinians and the Lebanese. You have to be very, very careful not to reach the point where such a political correctness of suicide attacks develops in Iraq.
ZAHN: That's a very good point and the Pentagon making it very clear to all of us listening to those briefings that the hardest part of this journey comes next. Shmuel, thank you very much for your insight this morning, appreciate you spending some time with us.
BAR: Thank you very much.
ZAHN: Back to Bill now in Kuwait City - Bill.
HEMMER: Paula, I want to get back to Walt Rodgers, as soon as we can get that signal re-established by way of videophone traveling in the direction of Baghdad. Again, if you were with us a short time ago, Walt was introducing us by way of speaking, to the tank commander who is in front of his Humvee. The tank commander, that giant M1A1 tank. Here is what Walt reported 35 minutes ago.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WALTER RODGERS, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: You're looking at a tank, which is the troop leader's tank of the Apache troop of the 7th Cavalry. The two soldiers aboard that tank, if you can see them on the left is the tank loader, Marcusio Posey (ph), I know he's from Alabama, and on the right is Captain Clay Lyle. He's the commander of the Apache troop.
They have been firing pretty regularly, as I say, for 30 to 45 minutes on both sides of the road, and there are a goodly number, I cannot be precise again for security reasons, a goodly number of armored vehicles ahead and behind our position in this armored column.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HEMMER: So Clay Lyle is the tank commander on board, and his wife Stephanie Lyle now joins us by way of telephone. She's back in Fort Stewart, Georgia. Stephanie, how's your husband doing right now?
VOICE OF STEPHANIE LYLE, WIFE OF 3-7TH TANK CMDR.: It looks like they're doing good. I just -- it's strange to be able to see this on TV.
HEMMER: Yes, listen, you were with us last week. I know it must be very strange. I got to think before this thing began you never thought you'd see it this way, (UNINTELLIGIBLE)?
LYLE: No, absolutely not.
HEMMER: Yes. Do you have concerns right now knowing that your husband is getting ever so closer to Baghdad?
LYLE: Yes. I think it's normal to be concerned, and I am concerned but I, you know, still feel very confident that they'll all be OK and they'll be home soon.
HEMMER: Yes, when you say they'll be home soon, we've heard from so many who say the target, the bull's-eye is Baghdad. The sooner the military gets there, the sooner they can come home. Your last time you saw your husband was when, Stephanie?
LYLE: The last time I saw my husband was January 21.
HEMMER: Wow, January -- when you got a chance to speak to him by way of CNN last week, what kind of feeling did that give you and what was your conversation if you can relay that to our viewers right now that was live on our air.
LYLE: It was good to talk to him and it was good to hear his voice. He sounded good and he sounded confident, and it just - it makes me feel better to be able to see them. It makes, you know, it helps me to know they're OK.
HEMMER: Yes, Stephanie, prior to the beginning of this war, did Clay believe that he would be helping lead the charge essentially toward Baghdad? Did he know that at the time?
LYLE: Well, that is the mission of the Cavalry, so they were prepared for whatever they had to do.
HEMMER: All right, well, listen, I don't know if you have any children or not, but if you do, are they aware of what's happening right now?
LYLE: I have a 2-year-old daughter and she knows that her dad is not here. She knows he's in Iraq, and I just tell her, you know, that he's doing his job and he'll be home soon.
HEMMER: Yes, Stephanie, quickly, before I let you go, at Fort Stewart, what's the mood there today, knowing that things have taken a decided turn in the past few days here?
LYLE: Everybody is really positive. We know that our soldiers train hard when they're back here (UNINTELLIGIBLE) and that training is paying off, and I think it will continue to pay off.
HEMMER: Stephanie thanks. Stephanie Lyle on the telephone, Fort Stewart, Georgia. It is her husband, Clay Lyle, that is driving that M1A1 tank in front of Walt Rodgers and our CNN crew there, moving toward Baghdad. And again, to our viewers, just as soon as we can establish contact again with Walt, we'll bring you his latest report. Paula, now back to you in New York.
ZAHN: Thanks Bill. We're going to take a short break here. And when we come back, we're going to introduce you to a British reporter who went inside one of Saddam Hussein's torture chambers. His observation straight out of the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ZAHN: Welcome back. British troops fighting door-to-door in southern Iraq are making some unsettling discoveries. Clive Myrie takes us inside an Iraqi police station that is now in the hands of coalition forces.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) CLIVE MYRIE, REPORTER (voice-over): Outside a police station in southern Iraq stands a mural of this country's leader. Saddam Hussein's dreaded internal security police were based here. This cabinet is locked. Saddam's portrait adorns every room -- not anymore. And downstairs, cells -- this one barely four feet by eight with no windows and a filthy pillow and mattress. In other rooms, hooks hang from the ceiling.
This room is bare but for two old tires and an electricity cable. We are later told a torturer might use the tires to stand on while water is poured on the floor and the prisoner electrocuted. And in this room are the identity cards of scores of Iraqi men, aged between 20 and 40.
It's a crime here not to have your I.D. card with you at all times. Why do these men no longer need theirs? We later found one man who didn't want to be identified who gave up some of the secrets of the police station.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE)
MYRIE: He tells me there was a tarot system. If you committed a crime, but paid enough money you wouldn't be tortured.
We spent days trying to find more people willing to speak on the record about torture in Saddam Hussein's Iraq. This man would only talk to us within the safety of a Royal Marines commando base and if he was a prison guard and Saddam Hussein walked into his jail?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE)
MYRIE: I'd cut him into 50 pieces, he tells me. In the distance, the smoke rises from a battlefield. Iraq's tools of repression are being taken away.
Clive Myrie (UNINTELLIGIBLE) southern Iraq.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ZAHN: A lot of folks warned us that that was what was going to be found once troops got to Iraq. There you have it.
Coming up -- the diary of a human shield. A peace activist who faced heavy bombardment in Baghdad will tell us what she saw in a city under siege. Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
Aired April 3, 2003 - 08:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: A Reuters correspondent saying that they were six miles somewhere maybe on the south, maybe on the western edge of the outskirt. Another report out there that U.S. forces were closing in on the airport west of the city. Again, all this stuff unconfirmed on the ground, but this is what we are getting right now. It continues to be the headline of the day, as U.S. forces again much like yesterday, get closer and closer to the Iraqi capital. We'll keep a close eye on that. As soon as we get Walt back we'll bring it to you. But for now, let's say hello to Leon Harris, the latest developments and there are many so far on this Thursday morning. Here's Leon in Atlanta. Good morning.
LEON HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning, Bill, and good morning, folks. It has been quite a morning. Our coverage of the war in Iraq continues with a look now at what's happening this hour in addition to what you've been watching happen.
As Walter Rodgers just reported, you saw the 7th Cavalry pushing closer and closer to Baghdad right now. "Reuters" is that reporting some U.S. troops now are as close as six miles from the southern edge of the capital city. Military officials say that they have faced little resistance from Iraq's Republican Guard.
Now here's what's happening -- we have other news as well to report this morning. Central Command is casting doubt on reports that a U.S. helicopter lost in south central Iraq was shot down. The Pentagon has reported that a Black Hawk was downed last night, killing seven people. Central Command says the number of casualties right now is unknown.
Now, a search is still under way in southern Iraq for the pilot of a U.S. Navy F-18 Hornet. The jet similar to the one you're seeing here, went down overnight, and the pilot is believed to have safely ejected. The cause of that downing is unknown right now.
But after the crash Iraqi TV aired video of what it claimed to be an American plane shot down near Basra. The U.S. military has not commented on whether it's the lost Hornet or not.
British forces are unleashing heavy firepower in Basra. Iraqi paramilitary forces were bombarded this morning with long-range artillery as the British continue their advance into the southern city. Coalition forces seized a food warehouse outside of Basra and that could help to alleviate food shortages among the civilians there. Good news for now.
CNN's coverage of the war in Iraq continues right now. PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning and welcome. I'm Paula Zahn in New York. Thanks so much for being with us today. For those of you who joined us at the top of the hour, we think you've probably been just as riveted as we have been by some pictures that were sent to us by Walt Rodgers who is embedded with the 3-7th Cav. This is what it has looked like, as his division, along with the 3rd Infantry Division has moved in on Baghdad.
We have to be very careful, as Walt has been, not to show any of the topographical features along the way that might betray where these troops are right now. About all Walt was able to confirm was that about two hours ago he crossed the Euphrates River again, that he did not encounter large rebel guard units. Instead, he described them as freelance Iraqi military out there.
He said it is his belief the Iraqi have dug small foxholes on back country roads and in the middle of agricultural fields. That is where they have taken some small arms fire from. He also described having seen at least 20 dead Iraqi soldiers. He said they all had gas masks on them. Not wearing them, but at least carrying them.
And the reason why that is important, the Pentagon has warned, as U.S. and coalition forces get closer to closer to Baghdad, the threat of the Iraqis using weapons of mass destruction goes up. Walt Rodgers saying, while the 3-7th Cav. doesn't know exactly what to expect, that certainly is on their minds. Now, Bill, you can please join in and help our audience get a better context of what they are watching.
But it was just remarkable as you and I have watched this over the last 40 minutes. If you see the camera do a quick swing from this tight close-up to Walt Rodgers face it is because they might have been going by something architectural, a mosque or something that could have put their position at risk. Bill, this has been amazing...
(CROSSTALK)
ZAHN: ... to watch, hasn't it?
HEMMER: Yes, it certainly has. Walt has been as the military likes to say at the tip of the sphere. Essentially, the 7th Cavalry is the scout unit essentially for the 3rd Infantry Division. This is the unit that always leads the way for the 3rd I.D. They try to find some sort of safe route north and that's been their primary responsibility for the past two weeks running.
Once they crossed into Iraq on the 20, 21 of March, if memory serves me, they're moving up to the southern and central part of the country and now Walt apparently somehow on the outskirts of Baghdad. They're not quite sure how far outside. I hear something in my ear here, Paula, that might indicate Walt's back. If he is, we'll get our viewers back to him.
But he was reporting about the small arms fire on both sides of the road, that M1A1 tank and the Bradley fighting vehicles move their way towards Baghdad. He said there was firing on both sides of the road, perhaps sniper positions. As Walt clearly pointed out, though, those positions taken up by Iraqi soldiers are simply no match for this 70-ton M1A1 tank largely regarded by the U.S. military as the best tank in the world.
There are some other militaries around the world who would disagree with that, but nonetheless, the U.S. is completely confident and comfortable with the M1A1. By the way, it has the capability, Paula, to move 50 miles an hour in open desert and fire from its main toric almost two miles down range. It has enormous capabilities and now we have seen, as Walt calls it, this wave of steel move north now and encroaching now on the capital city of Baghdad.
ZAHN: As we watch these pictures, we're going to bring General Shepperd into our discussion. General Shepperd, I was struck by something that Walt described and once again, he's very limited about what he's allowed to tell us and for a very good reason. We don't want him to compromise the safety of the troops there. But he did describe seeing plumes of smoke in southern Baghdad, which indicated to him the U.S. Air Force is near at hand.
MAJ. GEN. DON SHEPPERD, U.S. AIR FORCE (RET.): Yes Paula, it appears from other reports we've heard that coalition forces are within five or six miles of the southern area of Baghdad. We don't know where Walt Rodgers is, but of his great reporting, it's obvious that he is not meeting organized resistance that was feared by the coalition forces. In other words, they thought they were going to run into the organized resistance from the Republican Guard divisions that would be well entrenched in Baghdad. That has not happened yet. But much still to play out over the coming hours, Paula. The coalition forces are going to have to be very careful and cautious as they approach Baghdad.
ZAHN: So based on what you are seeing, General Shepperd, would that make you inclined to believe there's some truth to the reporting in "The New York Times" this morning that the Republican Guard has been called back into Baghdad?
SHEPPERD: I think it's reasonable to assume that they have been called back into Baghdad. The question is, is there any effective command and control that can coordinate their movement or coordinate the fighting or are they left on their own and, therefore, will melt away? Paula, it's a very good possibility that we will see in the next few hours to two days what we saw in south Vietnam in 1975, which is the rapid collapse and implosion of the south Vietnamese forces. The same can happen to the Republican Guard and it can be much easier in Baghdad, rather than that very, very tough fight that everyone was predicting, Paula.
ZAHN: Well we learned at the briefing, General Shepperd, this morning that coalition air strikes have heavily bombarded command and control centers. We've been quoting increasing evidence the regime cannot control forces throughout most of the country. Do you think that is what we're beginning to see right now?
SHEPPERD: Paula, I believe you're seeing the combined effects of all the military accidents taking place. The thing that occur to me are the special forces raids that have enabled us to maintain command and control of coalition forces, command and control of key bridges, command and control of dams, that type of thing, so that they cannot be destroyed and then selected attacks on leadership and command and control targets all over the country by special operations and the Air Forces from all of the services, in addition to the very, very rapid movement of the ground forces. All of this is combining to add up to a picture that says the Iraqis are being overwhelmed and cannot control their own forces, Paula.
ZAHN: The other thing that was confirmed at this briefing a little over an hour ago was that special operation forces raided a palace of Saddam Hussein's I guess about 56 miles outside of the city, a place, I guess, where his son spent a lot of time too. What is the significance of the announcement of that?
SHEPPERD: It's very significant. This is the second largest palace, only -- second only to Saddam Hussein's main palace in the area of Tikrit, north of Baghdad. What this says is that coalition forces, Special Forces, have very, very good intelligence on where things are and where they want to hit. You don't just wonder into a palace and start looking around.
You have specific objectives that you want to take and they had the ability to know where to look to get in and get out very fast. Evidently there were no losses and they were able to get at least documents, if not capture personnel. So this is a very significant raid, and it indicates the ability of coalition forces to strike anywhere in the country, even at the heart of the regime when General Franks decides he wants to, Paula.
ZAHN: And General Shepperd, before we let you go, for folks that weren't with us at the top of the hour, I'd love for you to put into context for them why it is so important that we are watching this reporting that is coming from Walt Rodgers of the 3-7th Cav.
SHEPPERD: Well I think a couple of things. You're getting a sense, first of all, that there is still resistance everywhere and you're getting a sense of how coalition forces operate. They don't stop every time they're shot at to clear a village or an intersection. They move on and they clean up afterwards. This rapid movement allows them to overwhelm Iraqi forces and perhaps even go well past the red line and interdict forces that were going to employ weapons of mass destruction.
So I think you are getting a real feeling of combat. You're also getting a good feeling of operational security. Walt Rodgers is tight on the commander's tank, a great place to draw fire, but he's not revealing where he or where the coalition forces are, Paula.
ZAHN: General Shepperd, thanks so much. Please stand by because we're going to try to keep up this shot as long as we can. And let's bring Bill now into the conversation -- Bill.
HEMMER: Yes, Paula, yesterday CENTCOM said the dagger is clearly pointed to the Baghdad regime. Today they reiterated by saying there is increasing evidence the regime cannot control its forces, and at the end, Vincent Brooks says we can't tell who is in charge. If we look at the picture from Walt and if we pick things up with CNN's Martin Savidge embedded with the U.S. Marines, yesterday Marty said the road toward Baghdad from his location was bumper-to-bumper traffic.
All military vehicles, almost all from the U.S. Marines. Marty is back by way of videophone to tell us what's happening there now. Marty, good afternoon.
MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hello Bill. We just crossed over the Tigris River. We are with the field train, which is part of the 1st Battalion, 7th Marines, rushing now to catch up with the main body of that element. We are passing through, have passed through the very ancient and also key city of Al Kut, which is located on the Tigris.
This is where it was believed that there were elements of the Baghdad division of the Republican Guard. This morning there was heavy artillery that was focused in this particular area designed to take out those last remaining pockets of resistance from the Republican Guard and then the 1st Battalion, 7th Marines went in. We were not able to go with them at that time.
We had a cameraman who was up front. We're hoping to link up with him to find out exactly how it went. There was artillery before the Marines went in. There was some supporting artillery, again, from the Marine as those units went into place, but then things got very quiet. That is a good sign, actually, if you don't have to keep firing (UNINTELLIGIBLE) guns because it would tend to mean that you are not meeting a lot of opposition or that whatever opposition they were facing they were capable of handing with the armored personnel carriers with their 50 gallon machine guns, not to mention the Humvees armed with (UNINTELLIGIBLE) designed to take out armor or bunkers.
So, getting across the Tigris, moving again, this time heading in the general direction towards Baghdad is just a continuation of this movement that we are sort of the rear elements of. You can obviously understand that the Marines have already made (UNINTELLIGIBLE) move across the Tigris and are continuing to drive on. It's always been their thinking that should they meet opposition they would peel off specific units to deal with it, but not stop the full force of the drive towards Baghdad.
In other words, a leapfrog would be in effect. Other units behind would continue to drive forward while those forward elements that became engaged would continue to fight. But, again, it does not appear that they faced any serious opposition so far - Bill.
HEMMER: Yes, Marty, we were trying to get the information from Walt's perspective with the Army. What's the Marine's position right now about the relative ease by which they are traveling and do they believe there could be a trap ahead for them near or in Baghdad?
SAVIDGE: Well, certainly, when you talk to the average Marine here they will tell you they believe that Saddam Hussein has got another trick up his sleeve. I think that's probably good, cautious thinking on the part of the Marines. They don't like to think it's going to be too easy for them and there are a great many Marines who say they'd still like to be a part of this fight that haven't had the chance.
However, that being said, obviously Marine commanders will take whatever opportunity comes their way, and that's what they say they are cashing in on now. They have seen movement, they have seen changes of position on the part of the Republican Guard. They also know it's been degraded or its fighting strength has been cut down by air strengths -- air strikes that is. So we'll try to keep the camera focused on whatever we may see here, but we just passed the other side of the vehicle what appeared to be damaged Iraqi military hardware.
But, again if they have seen opportunities, they strike at those opportunities. They see movement, they believe that is an opportunity to strike, and that's what they have been doing. Is this some sort of trap? Well, nobody here is predicting that at this moment and as the Marines always say, hey, they're ready for anything - Bill.
HEMMER: Yes, Marty, earlier today the 3rd I.D., members of that unit anyway were told to put on boots as an added precaution in the event that chemical or biological weapons may be directed at them. I stress there's been no evidence that the Iraqis have used that just yet. But your condition right now with your Mach gear, your chemical weapons gear, what is it at this point?
SAVIDGE: Same condition as Walt is under. We're in what's called Mach-2 (ph). That means Mach-1 (ph) is the full chemical suit, pants and jacket. Then we were told yesterday before we began to move, to put on the boots so that takes us to Mach-2 (ph). The only other additional hardware you would put on would be the face mask and then finally the gloves.
We haven't come to that level yet, but certainly out of precaution because they know that there is this red zone, the Pentagon has a vision. Nobody wants to take any chances. Nobody second guess. They air on the side of caution, so we do the same, and we have worn these chem suits (UNINTELLIGIBLE) and did wear boots from the moment it kicked off. Now the boots were taken off after a couple of days, but we have been in chem suits ever since the ground offensive began -- Bill.
HEMMER: Marty, thanks. Martin Savidge, again, by way of videophone with photographer Scott McGweny (ph) on the road to Baghdad. Marty is with the Marines there, and Paula, earlier today the information minister in Baghdad said that any reports of the U.S. military getting closer on the outskirts of Baghdad were just - quote - unquote - "silly". He says there is no evidence to indicate that, but clearly we can see through Walt and Marty that it's happening as we speak.
ZAHN: Yes, what we're not certain of, or if we are, can't report is obviously how close to the southern edge of the city there. Thanks Bill.
Coming up, urban combat, with the battle of Baghdad looming closer, what lesson is the U.S. military drawing from Israel's experience? That's coming up. Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ZAHN: You're looking at a live picture of downtown Baghdad, 5:47 p.m. in Iraq. The military is getting ready for a potentially dangerous kind of urban combat in Baghdad. Coalition commanders are reportedly studying tactics used by Israeli forces in urban settings in Lebanon and on the West Bank.
Joining us now from Washington with more, terrorism expert Shmuel Bar of the Institute of Political and Strategy in Israel. Thanks so much for being with us this morning, sir.
SHMUEL BAR, INSTITUTE OF POLITICAL & STRATEGY: Thank you. Good morning.
ZAHN: And as we have just seen, U.S. forces getting closer and closer to Baghdad. What is it, do you think, coalition forces can learn about Israel's experience in urban combat?
BAR: I think we have to be rather cautious about drawing analogies. But generally there are two differences, two main differences between our experience and the Americans' experience. The first is, of course, the American forces versus the Israeli forces. We didn't have a strategy of changing any great political culture and changing regime in a country. When we embarked on our (UNINTELLIGIBLE) operation in Beirut, we refrained from entering Beirut just for the very reason that you are hesitant regarding the entrance to Baghdad. At that point we felt that we could use the support of local forces, the Christian forces, and, of course, we made a very bad mistake in that.
ZAHN: Well let's talk about some of the risks that U.S. soldiers and British soldiers are up against here. We all know that four American soldiers lost their lives last week in a car bombing, and I know you have said that it is nearly impossible to protect the troops against that kind of action, particularly at a time when you're trying to prove to civilians you're there as a liberator and not an invader.
BAR: This is probably the main problem of holding the high moral ground and at the same time trying to perform as the military would perform, according to military logic. The military logic, of course, says that when you see somebody coming near you and you are not aware of his intentions and you have a split second to decide, then you have to take action. The more that you do that and the more mistakes of that sort you have, the more you're turning the population against you, and of course, you are creating more of the resistance or suicide bombers.
I wouldn't equate the sort of suicide bombing that you have seen in Iraq today, in the last few days, with what we have seen. The -- an action by a military officer, an Iraqi military officer isn't the same as the situation of political correctness of suicide bombing that we see among the Palestinians and the Lebanese. You have to be very, very careful not to reach the point where such a political correctness of suicide attacks develops in Iraq.
ZAHN: That's a very good point and the Pentagon making it very clear to all of us listening to those briefings that the hardest part of this journey comes next. Shmuel, thank you very much for your insight this morning, appreciate you spending some time with us.
BAR: Thank you very much.
ZAHN: Back to Bill now in Kuwait City - Bill.
HEMMER: Paula, I want to get back to Walt Rodgers, as soon as we can get that signal re-established by way of videophone traveling in the direction of Baghdad. Again, if you were with us a short time ago, Walt was introducing us by way of speaking, to the tank commander who is in front of his Humvee. The tank commander, that giant M1A1 tank. Here is what Walt reported 35 minutes ago.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WALTER RODGERS, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: You're looking at a tank, which is the troop leader's tank of the Apache troop of the 7th Cavalry. The two soldiers aboard that tank, if you can see them on the left is the tank loader, Marcusio Posey (ph), I know he's from Alabama, and on the right is Captain Clay Lyle. He's the commander of the Apache troop.
They have been firing pretty regularly, as I say, for 30 to 45 minutes on both sides of the road, and there are a goodly number, I cannot be precise again for security reasons, a goodly number of armored vehicles ahead and behind our position in this armored column.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HEMMER: So Clay Lyle is the tank commander on board, and his wife Stephanie Lyle now joins us by way of telephone. She's back in Fort Stewart, Georgia. Stephanie, how's your husband doing right now?
VOICE OF STEPHANIE LYLE, WIFE OF 3-7TH TANK CMDR.: It looks like they're doing good. I just -- it's strange to be able to see this on TV.
HEMMER: Yes, listen, you were with us last week. I know it must be very strange. I got to think before this thing began you never thought you'd see it this way, (UNINTELLIGIBLE)?
LYLE: No, absolutely not.
HEMMER: Yes. Do you have concerns right now knowing that your husband is getting ever so closer to Baghdad?
LYLE: Yes. I think it's normal to be concerned, and I am concerned but I, you know, still feel very confident that they'll all be OK and they'll be home soon.
HEMMER: Yes, when you say they'll be home soon, we've heard from so many who say the target, the bull's-eye is Baghdad. The sooner the military gets there, the sooner they can come home. Your last time you saw your husband was when, Stephanie?
LYLE: The last time I saw my husband was January 21.
HEMMER: Wow, January -- when you got a chance to speak to him by way of CNN last week, what kind of feeling did that give you and what was your conversation if you can relay that to our viewers right now that was live on our air.
LYLE: It was good to talk to him and it was good to hear his voice. He sounded good and he sounded confident, and it just - it makes me feel better to be able to see them. It makes, you know, it helps me to know they're OK.
HEMMER: Yes, Stephanie, prior to the beginning of this war, did Clay believe that he would be helping lead the charge essentially toward Baghdad? Did he know that at the time?
LYLE: Well, that is the mission of the Cavalry, so they were prepared for whatever they had to do.
HEMMER: All right, well, listen, I don't know if you have any children or not, but if you do, are they aware of what's happening right now?
LYLE: I have a 2-year-old daughter and she knows that her dad is not here. She knows he's in Iraq, and I just tell her, you know, that he's doing his job and he'll be home soon.
HEMMER: Yes, Stephanie, quickly, before I let you go, at Fort Stewart, what's the mood there today, knowing that things have taken a decided turn in the past few days here?
LYLE: Everybody is really positive. We know that our soldiers train hard when they're back here (UNINTELLIGIBLE) and that training is paying off, and I think it will continue to pay off.
HEMMER: Stephanie thanks. Stephanie Lyle on the telephone, Fort Stewart, Georgia. It is her husband, Clay Lyle, that is driving that M1A1 tank in front of Walt Rodgers and our CNN crew there, moving toward Baghdad. And again, to our viewers, just as soon as we can establish contact again with Walt, we'll bring you his latest report. Paula, now back to you in New York.
ZAHN: Thanks Bill. We're going to take a short break here. And when we come back, we're going to introduce you to a British reporter who went inside one of Saddam Hussein's torture chambers. His observation straight out of the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ZAHN: Welcome back. British troops fighting door-to-door in southern Iraq are making some unsettling discoveries. Clive Myrie takes us inside an Iraqi police station that is now in the hands of coalition forces.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) CLIVE MYRIE, REPORTER (voice-over): Outside a police station in southern Iraq stands a mural of this country's leader. Saddam Hussein's dreaded internal security police were based here. This cabinet is locked. Saddam's portrait adorns every room -- not anymore. And downstairs, cells -- this one barely four feet by eight with no windows and a filthy pillow and mattress. In other rooms, hooks hang from the ceiling.
This room is bare but for two old tires and an electricity cable. We are later told a torturer might use the tires to stand on while water is poured on the floor and the prisoner electrocuted. And in this room are the identity cards of scores of Iraqi men, aged between 20 and 40.
It's a crime here not to have your I.D. card with you at all times. Why do these men no longer need theirs? We later found one man who didn't want to be identified who gave up some of the secrets of the police station.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE)
MYRIE: He tells me there was a tarot system. If you committed a crime, but paid enough money you wouldn't be tortured.
We spent days trying to find more people willing to speak on the record about torture in Saddam Hussein's Iraq. This man would only talk to us within the safety of a Royal Marines commando base and if he was a prison guard and Saddam Hussein walked into his jail?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE)
MYRIE: I'd cut him into 50 pieces, he tells me. In the distance, the smoke rises from a battlefield. Iraq's tools of repression are being taken away.
Clive Myrie (UNINTELLIGIBLE) southern Iraq.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ZAHN: A lot of folks warned us that that was what was going to be found once troops got to Iraq. There you have it.
Coming up -- the diary of a human shield. A peace activist who faced heavy bombardment in Baghdad will tell us what she saw in a city under siege. Please stay with us.
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