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CNN LOU DOBBS MONEYLINE
War in Iraq
Aired April 4, 2003 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening. The skies over Baghdad have erupted in fire once again. A series of explosions just hit the Iraqi capital over the course of the past hour or so. Television cameras capturing images of tracer fire, anti-aircraft fire, explosions of varying intensity appearing to be explosions set off from bombs, perhaps cruise missiles, and certainly in the eastern part of the city, more bombs and near Baghdad International Airport, artillery. Lebanese television is also reporting the latest explosions have hit the eastern part of the city. Reuters is now reporting an intense artillery barrage that is pounding eastern Baghdad.
We will, of course, be monitoring those images of the night sky of Baghdad and bring them to you as events warrant.
On the minds of U.S. and coalition officers tonight, a chilling statement from a top Iraqi government official. Iraq's information minister today said Iraq will use unconventional tactics to fight off coalition forces around Baghdad. Mohammed Saeed Al-Sahaf said the tactics will not include using weapons of mass destruction, but he said Iraq will use, quote, "commando and martyrdom operations" in a new and creative way. In a related development, coalition forces have found a mysterious powder at an industrial site near Baghdad. Thousands of boxes containing vials of a white powder were found today. Nerve agent antidotes and documents on chemical warfare were also discovered. The powder is now being tested by the military. Tests are also being run on the water of the Euphrates river. Coalition forces have found initially high concentrations of cyanide and mustard gas in that river.
The capture of Baghdad airport, a huge military achievement and psychological blow to Saddam Hussein's regime, the 3rd Infantry Division appeared to have caught the defenders by complete surprise. James Mates of ITN with a report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JAMES MATES, ITN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It was a showpiece of his regime. Now Saddam International Airport is controlled by coalition troops, and tonight it has a new name, Baghdad International.
These pictures were taken on the runway just moments after the coalition attack. A passenger jet burnt out on the tarmac. Wreckage burning in a hangar as U.S. troops rush in. At dawn this morning, U.S. tanks and infantry had rolled in to claim their biggest prize of the war so far. Building by building, they swept the terminal complex, then moved on to secure the runway.
The fall of his airport is a humiliating blow for Saddam. It lies just 12 miles from Baghdad and will be a key forward base for U.S. troops as they prepare for a push on the capital.
More than 300 Iraqi soldiers have been left dead. Some Republican Guard troops fought fiercely on the northern side of the airport complex.
LT. COL. SCOTT RUTTER, BATTALION COMMANDER: Hopefully, this is a sign that we're able to send to the residents of Baghdad that we're here, and they can rise up and deal with the regime appropriately.
MATES: Outside the airport, the fighting was fierce, but the battle unequal. Here, the remains of an Iraqi armored car. And by its side, the body of an Iraqi soldier. This is all that remains of a column that pushed up the airport road last night in a final effort to defend the airport. U.S. troops are now knocking on the door of Baghdad, but the final push into the city could yet prove to be the toughest fighting of all.
(on camera): The patchy, somewhat disorganized defense of the airport last night has left coalition commanders with several questions. Have they done so much damage now to Iraqi command and control centers that they can no longer put up a proper fight? Or are the best troops simply withdrawing into the city to fight there street by street? The answer to that could well decide how quickly they make a final push into the city.
James Mates, ITV News, with the U.S. Marines, south of Baghdad.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: And the U.S. Army is sending reinforcements to Baghdad International Airport tonight. Soldiers of the 101st Airborne Division being flown in by helicopter. Military commanders are now considering their next moves in this battle for Baghdad. Our senior Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre has the report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SR. PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Saddam International Airport has been renamed Baghdad International by U.S. troops who now hold the strategic real estate just 12 miles from the city center. Though still under fire from Iraqi forces, Pentagon officials say the airport will soon be a key fire base from which the U.S. can expand its attacks on the Iraqi capital.
MAJ. GEN. STAN MCCHRYSTAL, JOINT STAFF DEPUTY DIR.: It's a great location in the southwest portion of Baghdad to allow us to posture ourselves around the city or to move into the city.
MCINTYRE: Nearby are three palace complexes, all considered regime command and control facilities and legitimate military targets. And once the entire perimeter is secure and more troops and attack helicopters can be brought in, the U.S. can use the vast airport complex as a launching pad for commando-style raids on centers of gravity for the regime. And one objective that, like the airport has both strategic and symbolic value, is Iraqi television.
MCCHRYSTAL: The regime determined early on that one of the primary mechanisms for controlling the population and exerting coercion was through its media.
MCINTYRE: Whether or not the most recent tapes showing Saddam Hussein addressing the Iraqi people and mingling with adoring crowds on the streets of Baghdad are real or fake, the effect is the same, sending a convincing message his regime is still in power. The U.S. has repeatedly targeted television transmitters and satellite dishes, but while the signal goes down from time to time, it always comes back.
MCCHRYSTAL: It has a very redundant system, starting with fixed sites to include mobile vans that it uses to put out its signal.
MCINTYRE: Still, bomb damage may have knocked out local broadcasts and limited Iraq to sending satellite signals abroad. And with the power out in parts of Baghdad, it's not clear how many Iraqis are watching, but until the television transmissions are controlled by the U.S.-led coalition, the Iraqi people will not believe the claims of the United States.
VICTORIA CLARKE, PENTAGON SPOKESWOMAN: The regime is fooling nobody and the end is inevitable.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MCINTYRE: And there may be another reason that the U.S. is having such trouble knocking Iraqi television off the air. It may be that they've moved some of their backup operations to a hotel where foreign journalists are working, effectively using them as human shields -- Lou.
DOBBS: Jamie McIntyre, our senior Pentagon correspondent.
Joining me now is CNN military analyst, General George Harrison. Also joining us is the last U.S. diplomat to meet with Saddam Hussein, Ambassador Joseph Wilson, former U.S. charge d'affairs to Iraq, adjunct scholar now at the Middle East Institute. General, if I may, I'd like to turn to you to talk about -- just orient us a bit now with Baghdad International Airport, now under the control of U.S. forces. Where do we stand tonight?
GEN. GEORGE HARRISON (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: I think we stand in very good shape. The coalition has essentially ringed Baghdad. We have forces arrayed around Baghdad with the right kinds of forces. We just heard indications that the 101st Airborne may be moving in to reinforce. That's essentially a light infantry organization. That will give us a lot more flexibility, give the coalition considerably more flexibility.
We can see on the map that forces are arrayed to the north, forces are arrayed to the south. There are some pockets of resistance remaining down in the Kut area, and, of course, there is concern about the entire logistic chain that resupplies the effort, which makes it all the more important that the airport, about 12 miles east of the city center in Baghdad, has been captured. As soon as the approaches to the Baghdad airport, but now the Baghdad International Airport are secured, we can begin to bring in heavier supplies and reinforce that entire area.
Now, securing that area around the airport is not quite as easy as you might think. That can involve 30 to 100 square miles of essentially urban terrain that has to be secured so that we have assurance, reasonable assurance that the aircraft won't be at risk as they bring things in.
Now, it's going to be easier to bring in rotary wing aircraft, because they require much shorter approaches. But the heavier fixed wing aircraft, the C-17s and the C-130s will require the longer approaches. So those approaches will have to be secured.
DOBBS: A couple of practical questions, if we can, General. Turning back, if we may, to the map in front of you. You show three Republican Guard divisions still in position there. Two south of Baghdad, one immediately so, one north. At this point, how much can we expect to use that airport with those forces still in close proximity and, obviously, an unknown force within the city of Baghdad itself?
HARRISON: Well, I think the airport can be secured. We have infantry opposing each of those -- or coalition forces opposing each of those armored forces. So I don't think they are a tremendous factor. They're fixed in place. They either surrender or fight in place. They cannot move northward to reinforce Baghdad, the ones that are cut off, particularly in the area of Kut.
Now, the one remnant, certainly, of the division that's located south of Baghdad, south and west of Baghdad, is of interest, but those forces can't move very far. We've seen what happens when the Republican Guard comes out with their armor and confronts U.S. forces.
So I think that the airport can be secured. I think that's a strategic advantage for us, strategic in the context of this campaign. So I'm not terribly concerned about that part.
DOBBS: General, I would like to bring in Ambassador Joe Wilson to join our conversation here as we try to assess what's going on. Ambassador, first of all, good to have you here. And we're going to be talking later about a number of other issues surrounding the war against Saddam Hussein. But for now, would you give General Harrison, our viewers, and me a sense, from your perspective, of what U.S. troops will now face as they turn east to enter Baghdad from Saddam -- well, from what is now Baghdad International Airport?
JOSEPH WILSON, FORMER ACTING AMB. TO IRAQ: Newly named and appropriately so. The airport, which at one time was an absolutely wonderful international airport, has obviously been degraded over the last 12 years. It's about a dozen, 15 miles from downtown Baghdad. You go through some of the more plush neighborhoods in Baghdad to get to the river. The river has got a number of bridges. You can get on this side of the river, the airport side of the river, you have got a straight shot at some of the ministries, including the key Information Ministry that they were talking about, as well as a number of Saddam's palaces on this side of the river.
DOBBS: General, if I can ask you -- and Ambassador Wilson at the same time -- how difficult in your respective judgments will it be to advance on Baghdad, to actually enter the city and confront the enemy forces?
HARRISON: Well, in my opinion, we can take our cue from what General Myers had to say yesterday. We probably will not do a full- scale frontal assault in the Berlin model, moving into the city directly. I think that there will be an indirect approach, and I think that some of the tactics will involve more light infantry than armor moving through those villages and towns -- or through the urban canyon, through the structures that impede armor and interfere with line of sight.
WILSON: I think that's right. We control the pace now. We're there. We own the airport. We can move at our own leisure. I think we'll probably employ some of the tactics that you've seen the Brits use in Basra, which will be the sorts of things the general just mentioned. Go in, hit strategic targets, come back out, allow the position of the Iraqis to erode further.
One of the things we need to be worried about is the extent to which there may be Special Republican Guards laying traps for us within the city limits. We'll want to secure it a piece at a time.
DOBBS: General, your thoughts about the possibility of a trap here?
HARRISON: Well, I think everybody's concerned about that. Again, we're in no hurry. We have the strategic advantage. We know what's happening here. And there's no reason to throw troops into this environment without a good intel preparation, without a good understanding of where the Special Republican Guards are, how well they're equipped, and what they're planning to do.
WILSON: You know, there's still the question of going after command and control as well. And we might want to use our intelligence assets to figure out if we can't get Saddam once and for all, and then that speeds the erosion of the central command.
DOBBS: Ambassador Joe Wilson will be back with us later in the broadcast. General Harrison, if you will, as we move through this next hour, we would appreciate, as always, your counsel and analysis on the military developments that appear to be occurring right now, certainly in Baghdad, as the bombardment of Baghdad continues. General George Harrison.
Coming up next here, we're going to take a look at the massive coalition air assault against Baghdad. Bob Franken will be joining us live from an air base in southern Iraq, carrying out hundreds of sorties, strike sorties against the Republican Guard and selected targets in Baghdad. Even as the front line fighting is intensifying in parts of Iraq, the work behind those lines is far from ending. We'll have a report tonight from southeastern Iraq.
President Bush has issued an executive order on SARS after meeting with top U.S. health officials. Peter Viles will have the latest on this fast spreading disease, and before that, we'll have a look at some tense moments during the seizure of Baghdad International Airport as we continue. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Coalition air strikes today pounding the headquarters of the Iraqi air force. And as you see in this picture -- and if we may, let's take this full. These are live pictures coming -- I believe these are from Abu Dhabi Television. It is now 3:19 in Baghdad. Explosions continue. They've been doing so for the past hour and a half. Some of that -- some of those explosions certainly are artillery barrage. Reuters reporting an artillery barrage, a heavy one, on the outskirts of Baghdad, near the what is now the Baghdad International Airport. Also, bomb explosions or missile explosions, Tomahawk missile explosions near the center of Baghdad. And we will, of course, continue to watch over the night skies of Baghdad, as we have over the course of the past now 15 days.
Well, since the air war began, more than 14,000 precision-guided missiles have been launched against Iraqi targets. Bob Franken is at an air base that we can identify only as near the Iraqi border. And he joins us now by videophone -- Bob.
BOB FRANKEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: And what's so interesting about that, Lou, is that defense officials are going to great lengths to explain that a full 70 percent of all the bombs that they've been dropping since the war began, 70 percent have been the so-called smart bombs. They're, of course, trying to make the point that they're going to great lengths to try and avoid collateral damage, and, of course, as we've witnessed, there's been an awful lot of damage that's been inflicted by the bombs.
The story also is the fact that there again a little bit under 2,000 sorties, about 750 of them in the last 24 hours, were directed at the combat type sorties, the ones that actually go on the attack. The rest are support sites. But what is interesting is the nature of the beast this evening. As the planes take off, particularly the A- 10s, which are used for the ground support, can do such a devastating job. As they're taking off, they really get the chance to just fly to an area and wait. And of course, since there's some uncertainty about exactly what kind of situation may be on the ground, particularly around the Baghdad airport, they're going to go up there and adjust their tactics to whatever is happening on the ground. They have the options of missiles, they have the options of bombs, and of course they have those devastating gatlin (ph) guns that fire something like 60 rounds a second, that can just rip just about anything to shreds, including tanks. So it's going to be an interesting evening, an evening where there will be a lot of ad-libbing, but clearly a very busy evening in the air -- Lou. DOBBS: Bob, let me ask you. You talk about busy. And it's been busy there, I know, for those pilots and their crews throughout. But is the pace picking up, or is it beginning to slow a bit as we get reports of just absolute devastation being rained down on the Republican Guard?
FRANKEN: As a matter of fact, what has been so interesting to me is the consistent number. It's stayed about the same. What happens is once dark hits, this becomes a very noisy place with a constant parade of jets. Of course, the moment I make that point, there's absolutely nothing moving in or out of this airport. But for the most part, it's very hard to hear here. The planes are constantly coming or going. And it's been, as I said, remarkably consistent. It's exactly the same this evening as it's been on other evenings, just that their mission might change a little bit given the changing nature of things on the ground.
DOBBS: OK. Bob Franken, thank you very much. Reporting from a base near the southern border.
Joining me now for more on what is happening in Iraq and in the skies over Iraq, CNN military analyst, General George Harrison. General, we just heard Bob Franken talk about the consistent number of sorties being flown. You have on that map before you three symbols representing the Iraqi Republican Guard. How much more is going to be required, as best you can assess, to destroy those divisions?
HARRISON: Well, that's hard to make a judgment on how much will be required. It depends on how visible the targets are and how well we can coordinate the activity, how well the coalition can coordinate the activity between the ground forces and the air forces. As you just heard Bob Franken say, individual initiative is going to be required to some extent, but in close air support the pilots do not drop unless they have clear identification of both the target and the friendly forces, so that there's, obviously, fratricide is a huge concern, particularly when you get forces intermingled like this. So I think the level of activity will continue. The targets are going to be a little less clear. So there will be considerably more caution, and we'll see a lot more small unit initiative by the troops on the ground, as they're given the latitude to pick out and designate targets for the pilots to attack.
DOBBS: Now, on the screen below you right now, and now below me, is the font showing from the Pentagon that two Republican Guard divisions are, quote/unquote, "missing." What does that actually mean?
HARRISON: Well, what that means is that the intelligence folks are working full-time to figure out where those missing divisions are. They're either missing because they've been decimated and they've melted away, or they're missing because somebody has developed a good command and control system to move them through the desert, through the terrain, to probably bring -- or to possibly bring some kind of surprise. I think Ambassador Wilson just mentioned -- and I certainly agree -- that attacking command and control and taking out command and control in the Iraqi military becomes more and more important. The more that we can fragment their activities and fragment their efforts, the better our chances of success, and by that I mean we can defeat them in detail as opposed to having to move against large maneuver formations.
DOBBS: As an experienced general and one responsible for combat, how concerned are you about the fact that, for whatever reason, two Republican Guard divisions tonight are missing?
HARRISON: Well, I'm concerned about that, and obviously, all of us are concerned. The people at Centcom, of course will be readjusting what's called their ISR, their intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance plan. To accommodate that, they will go to probable areas, they will do a lot of predictions of where those divisions could possibly be, based on their analysis of the terrain and the situation. And if they can find, again, if they can find significant formations, they'll attack those formations in detail and work them out.
DOBBS: These are -- these divisions are mechanized divisions, at the very least, in one case, I believe, armored.
HARRISON: That's correct.
DOBBS: This is very difficult, is it not, to hide that from the eyes, remote sensing, or satellites, all of the air power that we have over Iraq? It just seems, to the layman, that it's very difficult to lose that many people. We'd be talking about somewhere in the neighborhood, if they were at full strength, somewhere around 20,000 to 25,000 -- a force of 20,000 to 25,000 troops plus all of their equipment.
HARRISON: Well, I think that is obviously correct. So there will be, again, this adjustment of the surveillance plan to figure out where they are. We're talking about several hundred vehicles if they want to move as an armored or mechanized formation. So their chances of achieving surprise, I think, are very low. However, that doesn't mean that the troops don't have to be vigilant and particularly the troops in the rear. Saddam's hope at this point is to inflict enough damage on the coalition that he creates a wave of public opinion. So far, he's been unsuccessful at that, but that remains his only hope of changing his situation.
DOBBS: And it reinforces precisely what Centcom commander, General Tommy Franks, joint chiefs of staff, General Richard Myers has been saying, that there is still much work to be done. And perhaps the most difficult fighting still lying ahead. General George Harrison, thank you very much, sir.
HARRISON: Thank you.
DOBBS: Coming up next, British forces striking at strategic Iraqi positions inside Iraq's second largest city of Basra. Alex Thompson will report.
President Bush and British Prime Minister Tony Blair will meet next week. Plans for post-war Iraq on the top of their agenda. John King will have that report for us from the White House.
Also tonight ...
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD RUMSFELD, DEFENSE SECRETARY: If you're going to cock it, you throw it, and you don't talk about it a lot.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and Secretary of State Colin Powell and the delicate balance between defense and diplomacy. Candy Crowley will have that report for us when we return. Stay with us.
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DOBBS: Still ahead here, you can now be quarantined in this country if you have SARS. We'll have the latest developments on the spread of this mysterious illness. But first, these are the stories making news at this hour.
(NEWSBREAK)
DOBBS: British forces surrounding Basra have launched a series of raids against Iraqi positions. They killed at least eight Iraqi militiamen. Alex Thompson of ITN with the report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ALEX THOMPSON, ITN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): All day tank patrols have been moving into Basra, attacking and pulling back to their base in the city's edge. The soldiers said they killed eight militiamen, but there's no way of verifying this.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The opposition they're encountering isn't particularly significant. I mean, they don't have a great capability. They've got small arms. They've got RPG rocket launchers. And they've got a - to some degree, an effective mortar system. And we saw the effects of that today landing very close to our position.
THOMPSON: Some shots were more than close. This Warrior armored fighting vehicle hit by a rocket-propelled grenade, the round still embedded in its armor.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's quite a few RPGs going around. And this vehicle was hit once from the side and had a second one which bounced off the road in front.
THOMPSON (on camera): Only yesterday a senior British officer described this operation as dipping a toe into Basra and seeing what happens. What's happening this morning is incoming rounds from Iraqi positions just across there in the shanty town.
(voice-over): And all the while Basra's bombarded with propaganda, the psy-ops, psychological operations front is opened up. Radio Nahrain (ph), the Army's station, telling people the invasion is good for you, good for Iraq. They've even brought in a cartoonist, though he didn't wish to be identified.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We don't try to give the impression that we're anything other than British forces. There's absolutely no deceit involved. We tell the truth. And the reason we tell the truth is because it's absolutely critical that we retain credibility with the Iraqi people.
THOMPSON: A current work in progress features Saddam Hussein being arrested by a squady (ph) and marched off. A personal message from Tony Blair is in the offing. There already were arrests this afternoon. These two men suspected of being involved in the killing of two British soldiers.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Turn around. Put your arms on your head.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They're suspected of a killing that happened right in this area. I can't say any more than that at the moment until there's further evidence.
THOMPSON: The Army translator claimed these men were influential with a direct link to Saddam Hussein. This policing operation all part of what is a war here on several fronts.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Well, President Bush and his ally, British Prime Minister Tony Blair, will hold a meeting next week. They go to Northern Ireland to talk about the war against Saddam Hussein and their plans for Iraq after the conflict. Senior White House correspondent John King joins us now - John.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOHN KING, CNN SR. WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The president's summit with Prime Minister Blair early next week will include an urgent focus on how to run Iraq once the shooting stops.
COLIN POWELL, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: We are anxious to move quickly now that the day of liberation is drawing near.
KING: The immediate plan is for General Tommy Franks to be in charge with a new civil administration headed by Retired Army General Jay Garner. Virtually every agency of the U.S. government will have a role. State Department officials with humanitarian issues. Treasury Department experts to help with Iraq's economy and currency. Justice Department officials to assist with security and legal reforms. A new interim Iraqi authority will be formed as soon as possible and include a mix of Iraqi exiles and dissidents, Kurds who have had semi-autonomy in northern Iraq, but also a mix of indigenous Iraqis who held key civil service posts in the Saddam Hussein government but are not considered regime loyalists.
KEN POLLACK, SABAN CENTER, BROOKINGS INSTITUTION: One of the great unknowns out there is the extent to which the Iraqi bureaucracy truly is a functional technocratic system, or how much of it is actually contaminated by Saddam Hussein, his flunkies, his cronies, his corruption.
KING: The White House promises broad-based Iraqi involvement from day one, and to phase out the U.S. administration as soon as possible. But it also says some questions cannot be answered, at least until Baghdad is in coalition hands.
ARI FLEISCHER, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: There's been people who are saying we're bogged down. And now they're saying, describe for us and give us the names of the government that's going to be running Iraq in the future. We're still in the middle of a war.
KING: Mr. Bush sought advice from a group of Iraqi exiles at the White House, and Prime Minister Blair held a similar session at 10 Downing Street.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
Now, the post-war role of the United Nations remains a source of at least some disagreement between Washington and London. Prime Minister Blair and other European leaders want a broad U.N. role from day one, but the White House insists those shedding the blood now should take the lead role when the shooting stops, with only a limited post-war voice for the United Nations, at least in the short term - Lou.
DOBBS: John, is there any sense of a crack in the foundation there at the White House on that issue, asserting that the coalition will be running the show in a post-Saddam Iraq?
KING: No cracks evident just yet. And in fact, some talk of compromise being reached, an effort to reach a compromise. The European Union's chief foreign affairs diplomat is here in Washington, had some discussions at the White House today. Everyone is reaching the consensus that of course the military will have to run the show in the immediate days. The top item at this summit between Prime Minister Blair and President Bush will be how to carve out what everyone says should be a major role for the U.N. The question, Lou, is the timing and the specific charges that would go to the U.N. as opposed to that U.S. civil administration.
DOBBS: OK. John King, senior White House correspondent. Thank you, John.
A show of support for the war against Saddam Hussein tonight from an unlikely place, Canada. Hundreds of people turned out today in downtown Toronto in support of the United States and the war against Saddam Hussein. Today's rally was organized by a group called Friends of America. It is one of several pro-American rallies to have taken place across Canada. Of course, Canada's government not participating in the coalition. And most Canadians in surveys saying they do not support the U.S. and coalition war against Saddam Hussein. However, the organizers say that a silent majority of Canadians does agree with the decision to throw Saddam Hussein out of power. Columbia University in New York is seeing a backlash from its alumni after assistant professor Nicholas De Genova last week called for a "million Mogadishus" against the U.S. military. CNN has learned that the school's Alumni Development Office is being bombarded with e- mails and phone calls from alumni and parents of students threatening to pull their donations until De Genova is fired. Since making the remarks De Genova has reportedly failed to show up for his classes. Some people say there have been death threats against him.
Coming up next, they are the architects of the White House policies on diplomacy and war. They don't always agree, however. Candy Crowley will have a special report on the complex relationship between the secretary of state and the secretary of defense.
Also, Iraqi citizens in one town now are able to do something they haven't in years. They can pray. British reporter Greg Milam will have that story for us.
And public health officials in this country say they are not (ph) on top of the mysterious illness known as SARS. Peter Viles will have the latest for us, which now includes, by the way, the authority to quarantine. That and much more still ahead here. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld and Secretary of State Colin Powell are the president's top advisers on war and diplomacy. They are both widely regarded as being invaluable to President Bush. However, their relationship with one another is not always so certain. Candy Crowley has the story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SR. POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It is the subplot of nearly every story involving U.S. foreign policy.
QUESTION: Mr. Secretary, how do you and Colin Powell get along these days?
DONALD RUMSFELD, U.S. SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: Good.
CROWLEY: They are the Beltway's version of Hatfield and McCoy in an alpha male struggle clearly laid out in the days just after 9/11. Rumsfeld, the warrior civilian.
RUMSFELD: I'm inclined to think that if you're going to cock it, you throw it. And you don't talk about it a lot.
CROWLEY: Powell, the diplomatic warrior.
POWELL: It isn't always blunt force military, although that is certainly an option. It may well be that diplomatic efforts, political efforts, legal, financial, other efforts may be just as effective against that kind of an enemy.
CROWLEY: When war with Iraq became an open option, it began again. They differed first on whether and then on how and when to topple Saddam. Now it's about what to do after he's gone. A State Department source says a recent Rumsfeld memo, "Rummygrams" they call them at the State Department, envisioned a major military role in aid distribution to Iraq. Powell fired off a response noting the various entities within the State Department that deal with aid distribution and report to Powell. Friends of the secretary of state say friends of the secretary of defense are the ones stirring up that nasty discussion about how Powell has failed as a diplomat.
POWELL: Well, I don't believe I'm a symbol of failing U.S. diplomacy. So I don't accept your premise.
CROWLEY: And the Rumsfeld camp suspects the Powell camp of pushing those suggestions that Rumsfeld undermanned the war on Iraq.
RUMSFELD: I don't think there's ever been a war where there haven't been people opining about this or speculating about that or second-guessing on something else.
CROWLEY: Neither of the principals has ever copped to the friction, at least to the intensity it is described by others.
POWELL: Do we have differences of opinion? Well, what fun would it be if you didn't have differences of opinion? How would it serve the president if all of us thought the same thing about every issue all the time?
CROWLEY: People who know them both say their differences are not personal. Maybe so. It does look like Powell was only kidding the day he called Rumsfeld a show-off and pretended to take a swing at Rumsfeld's injured hand. But wouldn't you love to know the 1000 words that went with this picture?
Candy Crowley, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Joining us now again, Ambassador Joseph Wilson.
Ambassador, is too much made of the dynamic tension between those two very able, talented cabinet secretaries?
WILSON: Oh, I don't think so. I think that there are institutional tensions that you have in any sort of war cycle between the State Department and the military, and the Defense Department. There are also different personalities in the two institutions that rub up against each other in ways that create a fair amount of friction. And that's reflected in the debates at the very top.
DOBBS: They are right now in their respective roles in an administration that is enjoying enormous success, 15 days into a war that was - that France, Germany, Russia, a number of other countries sought to obstruct. Give us your judgment about what the future holds in terms of where the troops are tonight, in Baghdad, and what we can expect over the next several days on the part of reaction from the Iraqi population itself. WILSON: Well, I think you still have to have the battle of Baghdad. And that may actually be several days out. It strikes me that we will control the pace and we will do it at a time that is of our choosing. And it may not yet be ready for us to do. (UNINTELLIGIBLE) a little more softening of command and control. We'll go after Saddam. If we get Saddam and his head on a pike, then you can assume that the command - central command and control authority will wither away rather rapidly, it seems to me.
DOBBS: Pictures today of Saddam Hussein talking to citizens in the streets of Baghdad, at least purportedly. Some issue about whether it might be a body double, whether it was taped previously. But irrespective of that, is it important whether Saddam Hussein is dead or alive at this juncture?
WILSON: Well, it responds to the American psy-ops campaign, saying, we think he might be dead, we don't know where he is, show us. So it responds to that. But also it responds to the Iraqi need to know that their leader is there. It will be better when we see him dead because that will be much more dramatic in terms of an erosion of the central command authority.
DOBBS: What's your best judgment? As U.S. and coalition troops advance into Baghdad, what can they expect in the city? Can they expect more Fedayeen? Can they expect strong, fierce resistance? What's your best...
WILSON: I think as a military planner you have to expect the worst. And that includes a very real possibility they would use every weapon in their arsenal, they would undertake these terrorist attacks that they have threatened, and that we would face the Fedayeen and we would face the Special Republican Guard in bloody battles; which is why we want to control the pace. We want to know where they are, what they have, how we can get around them, how we can deal with them in a way that's safe for us.
DOBBS: Syria, according to the Department of Defense, continues to try to support the regime of Saddam Hussein. Iran has, at this point, we don't know to what degree they are intruding as they apparently were before. The Baath Party relationship between Iraq and Syria, how strong, how important, potentially how much of a problem?
WILSON: Baath Party relationship, there's always been a big split between the Syrian and the Iraqi Baath Party. So that is not in and of itself a necessary component right now. However, faced with an external enemy, they may well re-bond.
DOBBS: And as always, Ambassador Joe Wilson, we thank you for being here. Appreciate it. Come back soon.
WILSON: It's good to be up here with you, Lou.
DOBBS: Thank you.
Coalition forces have wiped out much of the Iraqi army in their sweep north to Baghdad. Now Iraqi citizens in one small town are free to pray after years of oppressive Baath Party rule. British pool reporter Greg Milam reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GREG MILAM, BRITISH POOL REPORTER (voice-over): It's 15 years since the call to prayer has echoed down these streets. When the Baath Party took control here locals say they outlawed religion. The coalition forces here in the southern oil fields say they want to give that freedom back to these people.
(on camera): Although the call to prayer has begun again, there's no mosque in this town. People are unwilling to gather in large groups to pray because it's open defiance of the regime in Baghdad. They still believe it will be some time before they'll feel free enough to do that.
(voice-over): Slowly that fear is being released. The school has reopened. Pro-Saddam slogans are being painted out. Everyone wants to know what's happening elsewhere in Iraq, to the regime in Baghdad?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have been here for just one week. Since liberating this town, we've seen fear disappear. They've handed in over 200 weapons. And the light and the water have come on again. But the substantial changes, first of all, have been school has begun again. The children are back at school and learning. And today on Jum'ah, the worship has begun.
MILAM: Trade is beginning to return to normal. The town barber has never known such good business with so many visitors. For the 1st Battalion of the Royal Irish Regiment, it's about letting people do it for themselves.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're simply here to help them. We cannot play God Almighty, and we cannot enforce our own societal values upon them. And so the way we see our job here is to facilitate their rebuilding of their community.
MILAM: One local described the area around the oil fields as the pumping heart of Iraq. The survival of this country depends on it.
Greg Milam, southern Iraq.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Coming up, new developments tonight in the investigation of the mystery illness known as SARS. How concerned should we be? What are authorities doing about it? We'll have the very latest on SARS, including an executive order from President Bush.
And Iraqi-Americans hoping to play a major role in the rebuilding of their home country. Rusty Dornin will have that report and we'll be sharing some of your thoughts next. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: New developments tonight in the mystery illness that is spreading fear throughout the world. President Bush has issued an executive order that allows the quarantine of people who may have contracted Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome, or SARS. And scientists investigating this disease now believe they've discovered the virus behind the illness. Peter Viles has the report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PETER VILES, CNNfn CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): From southern China reports that the spread of SARS is now actually slowing down. Researchers at 11 labs around the world report quick progress in identifying the mystery virus that causes SARS. But from the White House and from the CDC in Atlanta, more caution. Question to the CDC, are companies overreacting if they cancel travel to all of Asia? Here's how the CDC responded.
DR. JAMES HUGHES, NATL. CENTER FOR INFECTIOUS DISEASES: Well, you know, this is an outbreak in progress and in evolution. We certainly haven't seen the end of this. And we have to stay tuned to the reporting. I'm not going to be complacent. We're not totally on top of this by any means.
VILES: But the CDC also reported progress in solving the SARS mystery. It now believes SARS is caused by a never-before-seen corona virus, a virus now being mapped.
RICHARD CARMONA, SURGEON GENERAL: I think that the mystery is coming to closure. I think that this is unprecedented public health response. Never in the history of our country has something like this ever happened.
VILES: There is no cure yet, but the CDC is testing anti-viral agents with some early success. Results on a diagnostic test also, quote, "promising." The CDC says 18 teams are working on the SARS mystery in coordination with 11 labs around the world.
DR. JYOTI SOMANI, EMORY UNIVERSITY SCHOOL OF MEDICINE: This has been incredibly fast. Even compared to HIV, which took, you know, a few years to identify exactly what virus it was, let alone sequencing it.
VILES: The origin of the virus still a mystery. Corona viruses do exist in animals, a possibility under investigation. There are now 115 suspected SARS cases in the United States, 109 of those people who traveled recently to an infected area. Four were in close contact with a sick traveler. Two are health care workers.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
One reason for the aggressive government response, Lou, the CDC said today they view this challenge before them as a, quote, "fire drill" for how they would respond in the case of biological terrorism - Lou.
DOBBS: Peter, thank you very much. Peter Viles.
Coming up next, a group of free Iraqis could play an important part in rebuilding their home. Rusty Dornin will have that report when we continue. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The coalition, not the United Nations, will administer post-war Iraq. That has diplomats and companies around the world scrambling, looking for a role in post-war Iraq. But the coalition has decided to begin with Iraqis who live here in the United States. Rusty Dornin has the story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
RUSTY DORNIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Iraqi-American John Kanno keeps the turbines up and running at this agricultural facility in Stockton, California, expertise the U.S. government wants to put to use in post-war Iraq. Kanno and some 180 so-called free Iraqis worldwide have been asked by the U.S. State Department to help rebuild Iraq. His job is to keep the electricity on.
JOHN KANNO, FUTURE OF IRAQ PROJECT MANAGER: We don't know all the information as to what is left standing, but we are prepared to - I mean, sometimes it's going to be better and cheaper to start from scratch and rebuild a whole new power plant from nothing.
DORNIN: It's called the Future of Iraq Project. And Kanno spent the last few weeks spreading the word at home.
KANNO: The Future of Iraq Project is a blueprint for a country.
DORNIN: And there are others from here who are also part of the project. In the nearby town of Ceres, against the California sky looms what looks like an exotic fortress. The Assyrian Cultural Center, dedicated to the indigenous people of Iraq. Inside, an all- American pastime. Bingo. For the last decade the bucks from the bingo operation have in part been used to stir up anti-Saddam feelings inside Iraq. That's Sargon Dadesho's idea. Dadesho and his family fled Iraqi oppression in 1965. Now he's using the bingo money to fund a satellite TV channel that has been beaming anti-Hussein programs into Iraq.
(on camera): Are people seeing this in Iraq?
SARGON DADESHO, FUTURE OF IRAQ PROJECT MEMBER: All the time. We get calls from Iraq, different parts of Iraq.
DORNIN (voice-over): But this story isn't over yet. His programming angered the Iraqi regime so much that this man, posing as an Iraqi singer, was sent to assassinate Dadesho 12 years ago. The FBI uncovered the plot. The would-be assassin went to jail. And that's not even the end of the story. The court awarded Dadesho $2.4 million from the Iraqi government, and Friday he got the money from Iraqi bank accounts frozen by the U.S. So for Dadesho revenge will be twice as sweet if the dictator is toppled.
(on camera): Are you going to Iraq?
DADESHO: I'll going to Iraq. DORNIN: To do what?
DADESHO: To my homeland. Whatever is asked of me, I'll do.
DORNIN: Two men in the Future of Iraq Project waiting to serve two countries they both call home.
Rusty Dornin, CNN, Ceres, California.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Coming up next, we'll share your thoughts. We've received some stirring thoughts about our coverage of this war. We'll share some of them with you right after this. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: We're closing tonight with a look at your thoughts. Our war coverage has evoked some strong passions. Judy Byrd of Ohio, for example.
She wrote: "You have been biased, pro-Bush, pro-coalition and anti-everyone else with you words and lilting sarcasm. You need a red, white and blue cheerleading costume and a cowboy hat."
Well, Judy, I've got the hat.
Ann of Florida said: "Lou, if you and your chickenhawk Republican Guard friends want to wave the U.S. flag in Iraq, I suggest you go live there. It is beyond greed for only American companies to reconstruct what we bombed."
I suppose, Ann, you'd prefer the United Nations run things.
Gina Robbins of Tennessee wrote in with a brilliant observation, I think.
"You are doing an excellent job. You have been fair and honest in all of your reporting. But you have shown some bias - that you support our American soldiers."
Gina, thank you for the kind words.
Norma Goldstein in New York City, however, wrote: "I enjoy listening to you more and more. Your attitude and tone are perfect. And we are a benevolent, well-meaning country, not a conquering one."
You couldn't be more right.
And Jo Ann McGrath of Virginia, however, saying: "Lou, you are a disappointment, sitting there with the right-wing fraternity pin in your lapel and pimping for the administration."
Well, I'm so proud to belong to the fraternity I can't resist, and I won't. E-mail us your thoughts anytime, moneyline@cnn.com. We thank you for doing so. Paula Zahn and Wolf Blitzer will be coming up next to be followed by Larry King.
I'm Lou Dobbs, good night from New York.
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