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CNN LOU DOBBS MONEYLINE
Pockets of Resistance Lingers In Baghdad; 101st Wages A Fierce War In Iraq
Aired April 8, 2003 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(NEWSBREAK)
LOU DOBBS, HOST: Good evening. Coalition forces today tightened their hold on Baghdad. They're advancing street by street, destroying Iraqi strong points with tanks, artillery, and aircraft. The 3rd Infantry Division and elements of the 101st are advancing from the southwest. The 1st Marine Division is attacking from the southeast. Coalition forces have blocked all of the major highways now out of the city.
Tanks shelled Iraqi positions deep within the city. An Iraqi counterattack was repulsed. The 3rd Infantry Division said at least 50 Iraqis were killed. One coalition officer said organized resistance in Baghdad has collapsed. Iraqi troops are fighting coalition forces with anti-tank weapons and assault rifles.
Coalition forces continued to attack Iraqi leadership targets today. Armored units fought Iraqi forces holding out in the Iraqi planning ministry. That building is located in one of Saddam Hussein's presidential compounds. Coalition forces have deliberately targeted symbols of Saddam Hussein's rule.
Marines advancing into Baghdad from the east are blowing up Iraqi anti-aircraft artillery hidden in wooded areas. They've also destroyed ammunition dumps. The Marines captured Rasheed Airport today after a fierce battle with Iraqi armored forces. They said control of the airport will stop Iraqi leaders from escaping by air. Commanders said Iraqi resistance is uncoordinated.
Coalition aircraft are continuing to fly non-stop sorties over Iraq. Fighter jets from the aircraft carrier, The USS Constellation, in action again today. They attacked targets in Baghdad and towns in the south. More than 30 sorties were flown from the Constellation. The Pentagon said coalition aircraft have now flown more than 30,000, 30,000 fixed-wing aircraft sorties since the war began.
President Bush today said he does not know whether Saddam Hussein and his sons were killed in that coalition air strike last night. A B-1 bomber dropped four bombs on a building in western Baghdad 45 minutes after intelligence reported that Saddam Hussein was in the area.
Lieutenant Colonel Fred Swann, the weapons officer on that B-1 bomber, explained how he heard that Saddam Hussein, the big one, was the target.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LIEUTENANT COLONEL FRED SWANN, B-1 BOMBER CREW MEMBER: Those were the words that were used when we got past the coordinates, that this is the big one. So, you know, so that could be any number of people, and it's like, well, its -- I know it's important, it really doesn't matter, we've got to get the bombs on target, we've got ten minutes to do it, and we've got to make a lot of things happen to make that happen. And that's -- just fall totally into the execute mode and kill the target.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: Again, within 45 minutes of receiving that intelligence, that B-1 bomber was dropping its ordnance over the target site.
U.S. Troops today consolidated their hold over Baghdad. The Pentagon said nearly a full brigade of troops are now in the city center. Senior Pentagon Correspondent Jamie McIntyre has the report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JAMIE MCINTYRE, SENIOR PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): There may only be pockets of resistance left in Baghdad, as the Pentagon says, but those pockets are still fighting, dying, and sometimes inflicting U.S. casualties in a last ditch defense of the regime.
The U.S. squeeze play is on. In addition to their base at the main international airport, U.S. soldiers continue to occupy two presidential palaces downtown, and Marines have secured a second airport to the east. On their way to the airport, the Marines found and destroyed abandoned Iraqi weapons and ammunition.
In Baghdad, U.S. troops are now being resupplied and have no plans to leave.
MAJOR GENERAL STAN MCCHRYSTAL, DEPUTY DIRECTOR, JOINT STAFF: We are sitting in the center of the city with almost an armor brigade right now, which is extraordinary. So, if you put it in that kind of context, I think the end game is the end of the regime, and that's much closer than people thought it was.
MCINTYRE: The Pentagon still can't say if the four 2,000-pound bombs a B-1 bomber dropped on this residential area killed Saddam Hussein or any of his inner circle. And with Iraq's information minister still waxing defiant, it's clear someone is still in charge.
MOHAMMED SAEED AL-SAHAF, IRAQ'S INFORMATION MINISTER (through translator): It's the same desperate attempts to weaken our resistance, but our forces, especially the commandos, are preparing to destroy them.
MCINTYRE: Al-Sahaf is said to be working out of the Palestine Hotel, where most international journalists are based. The hotel was hit by a U.S. tank round Tuesday,killing two journalists and wounding two others. The Pentagon expressed regret for the deaths and for an earlier incident in which an Al-Jazeera reporter was killed in an exchange of gunfire between U.S. and Iraqi forces near the information ministry but insisted, in both cases, U.S. troops responded with appropriate force and in self-defense.
VICTORIA CLARKE, PENTAGON SPOKESWOMAN: War is a dangerous, dangerous business, and you're not safe when you're in a war zone.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MCINTYRE: And then there's the 4th Infantry Division, which is now in Kuwait, but Pentagon sources say could be moving into Iraq by the end of the week. If there's still fighting in Baghdad, they'll head there.
Defense officials are hoping that, by then, the fighting will have essentially ended. As one senior defense official said today, "I wish we could say at this point that we have taken Baghdad, but I'm afraid we're not there yet." -- Lou.
DOBBS: Jamie, thank you. Jamie McIntyre from the Pentagon, our senior Pentagon correspondent.
Now, according to the latest official figures provided by U.S. and British authorities, 127 service members have lost their lives in "Operation Iraqi Freedom".
Since the beginning of this war, 96 Americans have died, 31 British troops have been killed, mostly as a result of accidents or friendly fire. Eleven of the Britons who lost their lives were flown home today. Relatives at the Breeze Norton Air Base in central England were there as their bodies were returned home.
The Pentagon has captured more than 7,000 Iraqi prisoners of war. Eight Americans and an unknown number of British troops are still missing in action. Seven Americans are being held POW by Iraq. It's not known whether British forces have -- any of them have been taken prisoner.
Marines today uncovered ominous clues as to the possible whereabouts of those American prisoners of war. Blood-stained U.S. uniforms were found when Marines took the Rasheed military prison in southeastern Baghdad earlier today. Military officials say the uniforms belonged to the seven Americans held by the Iraqis. DNA testing will determine whether or not the blood matches any of the captured Americans.
Marines advancing into Baghdad from the east today destroyed an Iraqi armed force. They also fought running battles with irregular forces inside an industrial complex. Martin Savidge reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I'm Martin Savidge with the 1st Battalion, 7th Marines. They have crossed into Baghdad now. This is the unit that we are embedded with. They made their crossing into the city officially just before the sun came up. We are also told that advance Marine units have now taken hold of the Rasheed Air Base, an Iraqi air facility significant because now coalition forces hold air bases both on the west side and now the east side of the city.
As the 1st Battalion, 7th Marines came across that canal this morning, they were hit with pockets of sporadic resistance. They also made a large find of Iraqi ammunition and artillery hidden under a canopy of palm trees. Marines on the ground infantry units quickly moved in and began demolishing those units using hand grenades, setting the weapons afire, and also blowing up a great deal of Iraqi ammunition.
From that point they then moved into an industrial complex. There they had two objectives -- one, seek out and destroy any Iraqi opposition. There was some of that. And some fighting did ensue. The other was to check out warehouses believed to be involved in the Iraqi weapons program, and that investigation is still going on.
On the outskirts of that complex, they found a large supply of chemical warfare suits. These are believed to have belonged to the Republican Guard. There were the chem suits, the boots, the masks, the canisters of atropine, a medication that would be applied if you had been exposed to nerve agent. The Iraqis appear to have been prepared for chemical warfare.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Joining me now to assess the progress of the war against Saddam Hussein and the apparent collapse of organized Iraqi resistance in and around Baghdad is our CNN Military Analyst, General Wesley Clark, former supreme commander of NATO. General, good to have you here.
GENERAL WESLEY CLARK (RET.), FORMER NATO SUPREME COMMANDER: Good evening, Lou.
DOBBS: The resistance in Baghdad is collapsing as the Pentagon and Ceci have said. But that doesn't necessarily mean, does it, that heavy fighting doesn't lie ahead?
CLARK: That's exactly right because I don't think anybody knows, and certainly not those of us here, how much is left in Baghdad that will fight. It seems as though the organized resistance, that is to say, large unit activity, is finished around Baghdad.
But then again, there are areas north of Baghdad where we haven't put ground troops in yet. There's still the rumors of some Republican Guard divisions which may be up there between Baghdad and Tiananmen. And inside Baghdad we just don't know.
What we do know is there's lots of fighters, and there's lots of weapons, and they can be vicious at close range. We've got the advantage in maneuverability, the advantage in artillery and air- delivered firepower and advantage in reconnaissance, but it's their city. They know all the alleyways, and as long as they want to fight they'll still be trouble. DOBBS: General, it seems that there could be, as we look there at a map showing the advance of the 1st Marines, 3rd Infantry, 101st Airborne from the southeast, it seems that we have access, but we certainly don't have control. In order to achieve control of Baghdad, give us your best assessment of how much fighting would be required, how difficult it might be.
CLARK: It really depends, Lou, on the degree of Iraqi resistance, as they recognize their defeat. These people have not been told the truth, many of them, about the rate of advance, and so many of them apparently were quite stunned to find how far the allied forces have gone.
If Saddam Hussein has really been taken out of the action, then the resistance, you would hope, would collapse. In a few, in a couple of days.
On the other hand, if Saddam Hussein has all along prepared this fight as a protracted battle inside Baghdad and positioned supplies and ammunition and so forth and people and reserve units in preparation for this, then it could take a week or two weeks more, I would think.
And if it turns into a long, protracted guerrilla campaign in an urban environment where the Iraqi regime still has sympathy from numbers of Iraqi people, well, then you're facing sort of an indefinite kind of a West Bank kind of situation.
DOBBS: General Tommy Franks has provided a lot of surprises, not only for the Iraqis but for everyone watching this operation over the past two-and-a-half weeks. Is it your sense that General Franks has a number of other surprises up his sleeve, should it come to warfare, urban warfare, whether we're talking about Tikrit, Mosul, or Baghdad itself?
CLARK: Well, I think there are a number of other things that can be cued up and delivered in here. first of all, we really haven't heard about the effectiveness of the Special Forces. We know they're in there, presumably they're targeting, and they may suddenly make some huge breakthroughs in taking out Iraqi command and control or in delivering air strikes against key Iraqi targets.
Secondly, we have got additional forces on the way, both from the north and from the south. They may not be arriving instantaneously. It may take a little while for the 4th Infantry Division and the build-up of the 173rd to make an impact, but they will make an impact.
Thirdly, we've got the Iraqi resistance itself, and presumably some of our Special Forces must be working with the Shiah in some places to build some Iraqis who can help us decipher documents quickly and move into the cities and figure out exactly where the enemy is.
So those are three. We know we've got to fight underground at some point if the Iraqi resistance hangs on. Presumably we know some of the people who really know the underground. And there's no telling what else General Franks might have behind. But one thing you can say this far, Lou, is this is a plan that's been very effectively executed. We always say there's only two kinds of plans, plans that might work and plans that won't work. Plans don't win wars. The only thing that wins them is the execution.
And this one's been very well executed, particularly by the courageous men and women at the bottom of the organization, flying the aircraft, fighting the tanks, and getting out there on the ground as infantrymen and tank repairmen and so forth. They've done a brilliant job.
DOBBS: General, let me turn to one issue here as we conclude. This network and others today focusing considerable attention on the deaths of three journalists in one day in Baghdad. In one case two, in the Palestine Hotel. A tank firing, the Pentagon saying, or returning fire.
Give us your assessment as some are calling out for an investigation. Some talking about there should have been proportionate response of fire if they were under sniper fire.
CLARK: Well, the honest truth is that if you had tried to plan a takeout of the al Rasheed Hotel you wouldn't have done it with a tank round. There's no way, from the top of the organization to the bottom, anything like that can ever be done deliberately. And the troops do have a right to respond.
And frankly, when you're in contact, you'd like to be proportionate, but the overriding consideration is the safety of the troops. And proportionate between a tank or an RPG round coming at you and an infantry weapon or machine gun, well, they're all in the same category of weapons as far as most of us are concerned.
So it's really unfortunate that those people lost their lives. I know the American troops would like to have nobody hurt at all in this combat, especially innocent civilians on the outside. But this is the nature of urban fighting.
Saddam has really three things he wants from us. He wants to inflict casualties on us. He wants us to take a long time in this fight. And he wants us to do as much damage to the infrastructure and the civilians as he can make us do.
And we know that, and our forces are trying to do the opposite. Quick, few casualties, no damage to infrastructure. But it doesn't always work out the way it's planned.
DOBBS: General, well said. Just to take the idea of proportionality here, is that a concept that would ever be even considered in a firefight?
CLARK: Not necessarily in a firefight in that respect. But certainly if you had the case,for example, of a group of civilians there and you were receiving one or two rifle rounds from that group, you would like to have the ability to have someone on the hill and engage only the person who delivered fire. You can't always do that. When the troops are under threat they have the right to defend themselves.
DOBBS: General Wesley Clark, as always, good to talk with you.
CLARK: Nice to talk to you, Lou.
DOBBS: Coming up next, the screaming eagles wage a fierce fight with Fedayeen forces south of Baghdad. Ryan Chilcote is with the 101st Airborne and will have the report.
The air force loses its first aircraft to Iraqi fire. Gary Tuchman will have that story for us.
Bunker busters obliterated a building where Saddam Hussein may have been meeting. Whether they also obliterated Saddam Hussein is an open question tonight. David Ensor will have the latest for us. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Tonight U.S. scientists continue to analyze chemicals discovered in Iraq yesterday. Marines found 14 barrels of chemicals in a bunker at an agricultural site. Initial investigations indicated those barrels contained the nerve agent sarin and tabun and the blister agent luicite. If the new tests are positive, it would be proof that Saddam Hussein does indeed or did possess weapons of mass destruction.
The Army's 101st Airborne Division waged a fierce battle with Iraqi fighters believed to be members of the Fedayeen paramilitary. The battle raged for three hours -- almost four -- almost 60 miles south of Baghdad near the town of Hillah.
Ryan Chilcote with the 101st Airborne has the report.
RYAN CHILCOTE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Baghdad is not the only place where they're fighting in Iraq. Soldiers from the 101st Airborne's 3rd Brigade, also known as the Rockisans (ph), moving into the central Iraqi city of Hillah today, Hillah well known for its role in ancient Babylon. It is the home of one of the seven wonders of the world,the ruins of the hanging gardens of Babylon.
It is also home, at least according to the U.S. military, to a lot of Fedayeen fighters, and they saw some evidence of that pretty immediately, some fierce resistance coming from Fedayeen fighters using both small arms and rocket-propelled grenades.
The fiercest resistance coming when the soldiers got to an agricultural complex on their way into the outskirts there. Their convoy was attacked. And there was some real close-range combat. For example, some soldiers, some soldiers -- Iraqi soldiers, who apparently were caught off guard by the 101st attack, were hiding in a bush just adjacent to the road. They were surrounded by the 101st soldiers, and they came out, one with his hands up in the air, the second following just behind him, though, lobbing a grenade at U.S. soldiers,injuring three of them. Two of those soldiers, those U.S. soldiers, have already returned back to work, back to the front, if you will. The 3rd receiving some medical attention with non-life-threatening injuries back in the rear.
The soldiers in the 101st then went into that agricultural complex, clearing it room by room. Before it was all over they say they'd killed at least 10 Fedayeen fighters.
Ryan Chilcote, CNN, with the 101st Airborne's 3rd Brigade in Hillah, central Iraq.
DOBBS: More than 30,000 sorties have now been flown over Iraq. Many of those missions originated from five carriers currently in the Persian Gulf and the Mediterranean Sea.
Today one of those carriers heading home after nearly 10 months of service in two wars.
The aircraft carrier "Abraham Lincoln" left its home port of Seattle, Washington in July of 2002 for "Operation Enduring Freedom" in Afghanistan. After a six-month deployment, it was headed home when it was recalled to the Gulf by Central Command in December. Now it's headed home again. The "Lincoln" hosting one of the longest carrier deployments of recent years.
An air force plane was shot down by enemy fire today, the first time that's happened since the war in Iraq began. Gary Tuchman joins me now from an air base near the Iraqi border -- Gary.
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, for the first time since this war began a U.S. Air Force plane has been shot down, but the American pilot is OK after being rescued. The pilot was based here at this facility near the Iraqi border. He flew an A-10 Warthog like that one. He was on a mission from here to just south of Baghdad when he was shot down by an Iraqi surface-to-air missile. He ejected from the plane,landed in the desert south of Baghdad, and was then rescued by U.S. Army ground troops.
He's been brought back here to this base. He is said to be in good condition. His name still has not been released, but he's from Battle Creek, Michigan, from the 172nd Fighter Squadron.
Now, he was accompanied at the time by two other A-10 Warthogs, and they, too, were both shot. One of the planes made it back here safely. The other plane we actually have a picture of. It's at an air base in Iraq right now, a coalition air base that was taken over about 10 days ago, and you can see in the picture there is a hole in the right engine. But it also made it back safely, landed at Tally, Iraq. It is being repaired. And that pilot, too, is ok.
Over the last two days, there have now been four A-10 Warthogs from this base alone shot by Iraqi fire. Just yesterday Captain Casey -- Casey is her nickname, her name that she use when's she flies -- she was flying an A-10 on a mission, and she was shot by artillery and by at least one missile. The back engine also shot, also the vertical stabilizer in the back also hit by a missile. She had no flight controls, we're told by officials here. She had to take evasive action, and she flew it back to base here successfully.
What you're looking at right now are pictures of an A-10 -- it's a different A-10 -- taking evasive measures. That's what they do, they shoot out flares when they feel that artillery is fired at them. The flares attract -- they are heat-seeking flares and, hopefully, what they hope happens is that a missile that shot at it goes for the flares instead of the plane. But the measures by Captain Casey yesterday are being described here as nothing less than heroic.
Lou, back to you.
DOBBS: Indeed. Absolutely heroic. Gary, are these -- is the intensity of the fire in the success, at least against four of our aircraft in which one was lost and, mercifully, no loss of life -- is it because missions are coming in daytime now, more increasingly, rather than nighttime?
TUCHMAN: Well, it's interesting, Lou, because just yesterday we asked a few pilots that question. They've been telling us from the very beginning they've been seeing artillery, but none of them have been hit. And the question we asked yesterday was are you seeing more or less from the beginning of the war, and they said very definitely over the last week, they've been seeing less artillery.
So it seems to be very ironic that in the last two days at this base alone, four separate planes have been hit with one going down.
DOBBS: Gary Tuchman, thank you very much.
Still ahead here, Saddam Hussein, dead or alive? The coalition blasts away at the leadership of Iraq. David Ensor will have the report for us.
Another impasse at the United Nations, where China this time has blocked efforts to clamp down on North Korea. Kitty Pilgrim will have the story.
The mystery illness SARS continues to spread, and so does fear. Dr. Anthony Faucci, a director of the National Institutes of Health, joins us. He'll tell us what can be done to stop the outbreak. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
President Bush today said Saddam Hussein is losing his hold on power finger by finger.
President Bush tonight returned to the White House after he met with British Prime Minister Tony Blair in northern Ireland. At that summit, President Bush said he did not know whether Saddam Hussein survived the attack intended to kill him yesterday. Separately, the President and prime minister vowed that the United Nations will have a limited, but vital, role in the reconstruction of Iraq.
The United Nations Security Council is turning its attention now to North Korea's nuclear program. Security Council members are expected to meet on the matter tomorrow. Already disagreement.
Kitty Pilgrim reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KITTY PILGRIM, CNNfn CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Impasse as usual. The Security Council members at the U.N. can't agree on North Korea. The United States wants the U.N. to pressure North Korea over its nuclear ambitions.
China says it won't go along with bringing the issue to the U.N. and neither will Russia. China has even refused to attend meetings of the four other security council members regarding North Korea. And this week, China blocked the others from forming a statement on the issue.
ELIZABETH ECONOMY, COUNCIL ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS: Bringing this to the U.N. means that China's going to be forced to declare sides, which, again, is something that China's been eager to avoid to date. In addition, it means that China sort of diplomatic flexibility's somewhat diminished.
PILGRIM: Maurice Strong has visited North Korea, known as the DPRK, twice since January trying to reduce tensions. He warns of horrific consequences if war were to come to the Korean peninsula. Yet, that is what North Korea is threatening if the U.N. takes action.
MAURICE STRONG, U.N. AMBASSADOR TO N. KOREA: If the movement results in punitive measures or sanctions or moves in the direction of punitive measures or sanctions on the DPRK, they have said that they would consider that a hostile act. In fact, they've even termed it an act of war.
PILGRIM: The situation is already serious. North Korea is thought by the intelligence community to possess enough plutonium for one or two nuclear weapons and has restarted its atomic facility at Yongbyong, seen in these satellite photos. Many nuclear arms experts rank North Korea as the No. 1 nuclear threat in the world.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: North Korea wants one-on-one talks with the United States. The United States wants multilateral talks. But it's ironic in this case that some in the world community want the United States to go it alone -- Lou.
DOBBS: Kitty, thank you. Kitty Pilgrim from the United Nations.
Just ahead, Pentagon correspondent Barbara Starr will report on the effort to kill Saddam Hussein and his two sons.
But first, Heidi Collins joins us from CNN Center in Atlanta with the stories making news at this hour.
(NEWSBREAK)
DOBBS: The Pentagon today said it will take some time for coalition forces to know whether Saddam Hussein was killed in a bombing raid last night in Baghdad when a B-1 aircraft dropped four bombs on a building where intelligence sources said Saddam and his sons were meeting. Pentagon correspondent Barbara Starr reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The four-man crew of the B-1 bomber sent to kill Saddam Hussein and his sons was over western Iraq refueling when the word came.
LT. COL. FRED SWANN, WEAPONS OFFICER: When we got the word that it was a priority leadership target, immediately or, you know, you get kind of an adrenaline rush.
STARR: The crew fell back on their training. Lieutenant Colonel Fred Swann, the weapons officer on board, talked to reporters by telephone from the front.
SWANN: We had to react quickly to it. And at the time for me what I was thinking was, well, you know this could be the big one. Let's make sure we get it right.
STARR: Twelve minutes later they are over Baghdad, beginning to understand this may not be a routine mission. There wasn't much time to plan after the intelligence community told the military there were top Iraqi leaders in a Baghdad residential district.
MAJ. GEN. STANLEY MCCHRYSTAL, JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF: In this case the 45-minute time between when we received potential intelligence and actually putting ordnance on the target is extraordinary.
STARR: As the B-1 moved closer, the crew was watching for trouble.
SWANN: Moving towards Baghdad from the west to the east the things that came into my mind quickly were the air defenses around Baghdad, which they're still active...
STARR: The B-1 dropped four bombs in a special configuration designed to hit an underground facility and minimize damage in the surrounding civilian neighborhood. Two 2,000-pound Bunker Busters went first, followed by two 2,000-pound bombs with a time delay fuse, all designed to ensure maximum explosion underground.
SWANN: And everything went as advertised. The weapons came off. We knew we hit the target.
bar The pictures do now show considerable damage, of course.
(on camera): But even now the Pentagon says it doesn't know for sure if it got the people it was going after.
Barbara Starr, CNN, the Pentagon.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: U.S. forces, of course, are in Baghdad but are not in the residential area where that B-1 strike took place. Instead, intelligence officials are relying on radio intercepts and other sources to determine Saddam Hussein's fate.
David Ensor has the story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The bombs hit just 45 minutes after U.S. intelligence told military commanders that senior Iraqi leaders, possibly including Saddam Hussein and one or more of his two sons, were at the location in a Baghdad neighborhood.
U.S. officials say they still do not know whether they killed the Iraqi leader.
BUSH: You know, I don't know whether he survived. The only thing I know is he's losing power.
ENSOR: Officials say it may be some time before the U.S. can be sure whether Saddam Hussein is alive. They are tracking Iraqi communications to see whether anyone refers to his status.
Meantime, U.S. officials say efforts to track down Saddam Hussein will continue.
KENNETH POLLACK, SABAN CENTER AT BROOKINGS INS.: It's a very hard target. Saddam is paranoid. He is very good about his security. And my guess is that U.S. forces are trying to take advantage of every possible lead out there.
ENSOR: The Iraqi regime has an extensive network of deep underground hardened bunkers under Baghdad. Some of them were built in the '80s under contract by Swiss, German and Yugoslav engineers. Others more recently by Iraqis.
U.S. officials say they are not sure whether the buildings that were hit have bunkers under them. However, if it turns out there is a bunker beneath the site, experts say while the 2,000-pound Bunker Buster bombs are highly effective, the target information must be very precise.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ENSOR: One expert said if the Bunker Buster bomb misses the room where the targeted individuals are by just 15 feet then a foot-thick reinforced concrete wall can protect the occupants from more than perhaps anything worse than some damage to their hearing -- Lou.
DOBBS: David, thank you very much. David Ensor reporting from Washington, our national security correspondent.
Well, you might think a big crater in one residential neighborhood created by four bombs from a B-1 and meant for Saddam Hussein and Iraqi leadership would be impossible for anyone to ignore. But not for Baghdad Bob, or Minister Magoo, as he's becoming known in some quarters. Iraq's minister of information was absolutely undeterred and he stuck to his message when he met with media today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MOHAMMED SAEED AL-SAHAF, IRAQI MINISTER OF INFORMATION (through translator): Now they are isolated in the city. And we are planning to isolate the rest of them around al Doura (ph) area. We are in control, and we will start shelling them and Fedayeen Saddam are engaging these targets. Now they are prisoners of their tanks. They cannot leave their tanks.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: Perhaps he meant they won't leave their tanks.
Meantime, here in New York City, a safe distance from the bombing raids, one Iraqi official is safely ensconced in the nation's residence on Manhattan's posh Upper East Side. And our senior United Nations correspondent Richard Roth caught up with Iraq's ambassador to the United Nations, Mohammed Aldouri, this morning.
Despite some questions about the future of the United Nations let alone the Iraqi ambassador, Aldouri remained upbeat about Saddam and his government.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RICHARD ROTH, CNN SENIOR U.N. CORRESPONDENT: Do you have any information from Baghdad? Do you have any communication though to confirm about his whereabouts?
MOHAMMED ALDOURI, IRAQI AMB. TO U.N.: No, no. I have no. There is no communication from Baghdad.
ROTH: Do you think he's alive?
ALDOURI: Well, I think yes. Yes. Yes.
ROTH: What about the idea that the U.S. targeted him this way?
ALDOURI: Well, the U.S. target him as usual, yes. They try to get him, but I think he knows very well that he is targeted by Americans.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: And today Aldouri added a new word to his title as ambassador, Iraqi ambassador to the United Nations. He refers to the position at the United Nations as, quote, "permanent." We'll see. When we continue, the very latest on the SARS virus. A hundred and forty-nine cases now reported in this country. We'll be talking with Dr. Anthony Fauci of the National Institutes of Health on the spread and the treatment of this disease in this country and around the world.
Also coming up tonight...
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... it's been extremely positive. They're clapping, cheering, and have been very jovial. Break.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: Despite the cheers, Marines in many cases are keeping a safe distance from civilians in spite of a warm welcome. Alessio Vinci will have that report for us.
And Free Iraqi Fighters are back in their home country training alongside the Elite U.S. Special Forces. Mike Boettcher will have the report. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The spread of Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome continues unchecked tonight. Twenty-six hundred people around the world have been sickened by SARS including 149 in this country. One hundred and three people all around the world have died as a result of this virus. As of tonight, there is no treatment.
Dr. Anthony Fauci has testified before the Senate over the past few days. Dr. Fauci is the director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases and joins us tonight. Doctor, good to have you here.
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, NIH: Good to be here.
DOBBS: This virus is spreading without treatment and without, as I understand it to this point 100 percent identification. We know it is a Caronialvirus. Is there is some -- is there is a suspicion that there is some force at work here driving, spreading this virus?
FAUCI: Well, the force at work is the natural evolution of an epidemic of a new disease. It's spread by the respiratory route, which is always very difficult because that's a very easy way to spread a virus. It evolved most recently. This is a new disease, and it's part of the spectrum of emerging and re-emerging diseases. Every once in a while you get one that becomes really very serious, which is the reason why we're taking this very, very seriously.
DOBBS: I was referring to some suggestions that there is a suspicion that there are supercarriers of this disease that might be explaining at least in some quarters why it has spread. What's your assessment of that? FAUCI: Well, it does appear that under normal circumstances that we've seen as the epidemic has evolved that the most frequent way that this is transmitted is by close person-to-person contact, by face-to- face contact.
The family members, for example, are very susceptible to this. Physicians and nurses and health care workers who take care of patients, if they don't take the proper precautions, are very susceptible. That's the kind of transmissibility that you might expect. But there are some individuals in certain circumstances which appears that they can transmit it much more easily.
For example, there's a situation in a hotel in Hong Kong where one individual very rapidly spread the infection to at least seven other individuals. In a hospital in Vietnam one patient transmitted the virus to more than 20 health care workers. And in an apartment complex in Hong Kong there was rather rapid spread that bespeaks something much more efficient than just face-to-face contact.
So we feel that there are individuals who get infected with this who can transmit it much more readily and efficiently than others can.
DOBBS: In this country we've been relatively fortunate, as we just reported. But on the West Coast we now have just about a fourth of these cases are in California, are they not?
FAUCI: Right. And that's not unexpected because of the portal of entry into this country from Asia through California. So that's not at all unexpected.
DOBBS: And where do we go from here? Do you have a sense that the health agencies, which have been remarkable, if I may say, in responding to this -- how close, if you can judge this, are we to either a response that will be effective in treatment or prevention?
FAUCI: Well, first of all, the WHO, and in this country particularly the CDC have done a really phenomenal job of responding to this in the way of trying to contain it.
For example, meeting planes at ports that come into from these countries and telling people by giving them a card if they have any symptoms, if they develop any symptoms in the next few days. It's that kind of fundamental public health measures that have helped out a lot.
What we need to do now, since it's very likely that we have the virus, there's greater than 90-some-odd percent chance, that this virus, the Coronavirus that the CDC has isolated is in fact the cause of this. We'll be 100 percent sure reasonably soon.
Once you have that virus, then you can do things like develop a vaccine or develop therapies. That's going to take some time, but it's a very good start to have the microbe that's the cause of this infection in the laboratory growing very well. And then there's diagnostics which the CDC is already well under way to a diagnostic test so you can screen better and get a feel for the scope of individuals who might be infected because we only have experience with people who get clinically ill as opposed to people who might have been infected and didn't get ill. But we will know when we screen them with this anti-body test.
DOBBS: Doctor, I know you have to run, and we appreciate your time here this evening.
FAUCI: It's good to be here.
DOBBS: One last question, if I may.
FAUCI: Sure.
DOBBS: In a scale in which we who are not doctors can understand, what do you expect and how serious do you expect this virus to be in its impact on the population of this country and the world over the course of the next month or two?
FAUCI: Well, it's -- to be honest with you, it is very, very difficult to predict because this is an epidemic in evolution.
It's going like this. There's a possibility it could skyrocket up, or there's a possibility, which we would hope would happen, that it would plateau off and then die down. Then there's always the possibility that it does that and then comes back again next season.
So I think we should certainly not panic about it, but we should take it very, very seriously and follow it very carefully and listen to the announcements that come out of the CDC.
But when you have an evolving epidemic, particularly an epidemic like this, as small as it might be relatively speaking now, it has the potential to become more serious. We're going to watch it very closely.
DOBBS: Dr. Anthony Fauci, we thank you very much for taking your time to be with us.
FAUCI: You're quite welcome.
DOBBS: Coming up next here, Iraqis today cheered and clapped for coalition troops entering a town in eastern Iraq. Alessio Vinci was there. And he'll have the story for us.
Also, we'll share your thoughts on this war and our coverage of it. That and more still ahead. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Well, we want to check in on the night skies over Baghdad, if we may. It has been quiet. No reports at artillery barrages or bombings so far this evening. And we will continue, of course, to bring any news to you that develops there in the skies around and in Baghdad.
Joining me now, CNN military analyst General David Grange.
General, good to have you here. Let's begin with, if we may, this -- the fact that we are looking at relatively calm skies over Baghdad tonight.
What do you make of it?
GENERAL DAVID GRANGE, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Well, this calm before the next storm. This -- obviously still going to be some fighting going on throughout this city. I think some of the special operations troops of the Iraqi regime, Fedayeen, Iraqi special forces, Special Republican Guard elements, are still hiding throughout the city. Some may have broken out before the city was completely isolated. But some are probably still throughout the city in subterranean hideouts and in the suburban area.
DOBBS: This sounds like a very tough fight. Even though the resistance is described on occasion as light, sporadic, disorganized, it still sounds like very tough fighting, general, within the city of Baghdad itself.
GRANGE: Well, Lou, I can assure you, for a sergeant leading the squad Marine or army, or a tank commander in one of those Abrams or a Bradley fighting vehicle it's intense fighting. Because where you are in a battlefield at that point it's always intense around you. Overall looking at it from a theater level, a campaign level, at Central Command, as an example, it's probably light and sporadic. But it's very dangerous, needless to say. Snipers, rocket-propelled grenade launchers, mortars. Fighting out of close proximity to windows and doors and sewers and rooftops. It's very dangerous work.
DOBBS: General, I want to inter -- just for a second if you'll stand by we're going to the Pentagon now for some breaking news on the war in Iraq.
Senior Pentagon Correspondent Jamie McIntyre has that for us -- Jamie.
MCINTYRE: Well, Lou, we're just learning now that a U.S. Air Force F-15E Strike Eagle has gone down over Iraq, but this happened on Sunday, We're told, about 7:30 P.M. local time. That's Eastern daylight time, rather, on Sunday. This apparently went down, this F- 15, went down in a hostile territory near Tikrit. And because of the security surrounding the attempt for a search and rescue mission, no announcement had been made of it at the time. This F-15E is a two- seat aircraft designed for air to ground operations.
Both of the airmen are listed as missing at the moment. The U.S., obviously, is not discussing their status and whether there's a search ongoing but again, this happened several days ago, on Sunday. And they're just acknowledging it today, that an F-15E Strike Eagle down over Iraq in the vicinity of Tikrit. And of course, that's an area where the U.S. does not have as many forces as in other parts of the country. So again, any details of the ongoing search are not being discussed. But that -- they did just announce this today, an F- 15 down over Iraq on Sunday -- Lou.
(END BREAKING NEWS)
DOBBS: Jamie, thank you very much. Jamie McIntyre just reported the reason for the delay, obviously because they wanted to give search and rescue teams the opportunity to find the crewmen as quickly as they possibly could. Jamie McIntyre, our senior Pentagon correspondent.
Now let's return to General David Grange.
Jamie McIntyre, general, just talked about the fighting in Tikrit. Not as many forces arrayed there, coalition forces. What do you expect to be the progress against Tikrit, Mosul, Kirkuk?
GRANGE: I think what you have, Lou, around Tikrit is you have obviously a lot of air operations going on just like this F-15 mission that Jamie McIntyre just discussed, taking out Republican Guard Units as well as regular army units around Tikrit. It is a stronghold of Saddam. You know, you have the loyalty up there for his regime.
You probably have special operations forces working in the vicinity of some of the key terrain around Tikrit. And then you have the pressure eventually coming from the northeast with the special forces and the 173rd Airborne Brigade tied in with the indigenous forces of the Kurdish fighters moving that way. But it's still a very hostile area, and we do have limited forces on the coalition side in that area right now, I believe.
OK. General David Grange, thank you very much, as always.
DOBBS: Now that coalition forces are free to move at will throughout Baghdad and Saddam Hussein's fate remains in question, U.S. and British forces are being welcomed by many Iraqi citizens in towns across Iraq. But they're not taking any chances.
Alessio Vinci is traveling with the Marines Task Force Tarawa in eastern Iraq and has the report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ALESSIO VINCI, CNN CORRESPONDENT, (voice-over): Approaching the town of Ali al-Sharqi (ph) in eastern Iraq, a crowd of civilians on the bridge. They turn out to be an impromptu welcoming committee, jubilant civilians very happy to see the Americans. In broken English they tell us why the Americans are so welcome.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We believe -- we believe that the American Marines make us happy and freedom.
VINCI: The crowd, so enthusiastic it had to be controlled with concertina wire. Barefoot children pushed from behind.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The atmosphere here has been extremely positive. They're clapping, cheering, and have been very jovial. Break. VINCI: U.S. Marines, though, still worry the Iraqi paramilitaries could be disguised as civilians and attack. So despite the euphoria they keep all civilians at a safe distance.
LT. JOUSON DANIEL, U.S. MARINE CORPS: We're telling them we -- you know, we are the military, we're not here to be their friends, not yet. We have our job to do, and part of that job is being hampered by them being up here on our position.
VINCI: But these military men showed they have a heart, and following brief negotiations and a search the Marines allowed this farmer to take his livestock across the bridge.
(on camera): U.S. Marines welcome the friendly crowd. But they also say that they came here because they had reports that remnants of the Iraqi 10th Armored Division are still active in this area.
Are there any soldiers here?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No soldiers. All of them go to their home.
VINCI (voice-over): People here tell us they forced all the soldiers to leave town, or to stay at home. This man also says there are no more Ba'ath party members either. Over the next few days one job of the Marines here will be to determine if those claims are true.
Alessio Vinci, CNN, the U.S. Marines near Ali Al Sharqi, Iraq.
DOBBS: When we come back, we'll share some of your thoughts on our coverage of this war. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Now a look at your e-mails.
Bob Moore of New York wrote in to say, Why don't I hear just one newsman point out that whatever the civilian casualties are in this war, they will be less than the number of people who would die in Iraqi in another year of Saddam's rule?"
Mark F. of British Columbia wrote to say, "the greedy, rotten American thieves couldn't care less who they kill it's all about oil and getting rich."
David Webb of California wrote to say, "Those who are still opposition to the war should remember the words of Franklin D. Roosevelt, 'When you see a rattlesnake poised to strike, you don not wait until he has struck to crush him."
On our coverage of the war, Chad from Virginia wrote in to say, "After watching all of the network and cable channels, I have discerned that you are the most intelligent, fair minded and calm anchor or reporter in the country." And Ben has a somewhat different take, saying "We wish you success when the political winds shift as they invariably do when partisan. Ill informed, narrow minded, jingoistic views from the far right fall out of favor with viewers , and you return to objectively reporting national, international and business news." We look forward to the day.
We appreciate your thoughts. E-mail us anytime at moneyline@cnn.com. I'm Lou Dobbs. For all of us here, thanks for being with us.
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