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CNN Live At Daybreak

Interview With Abdul-Rida Assiri

Aired April 09, 2003 - 06:49   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Hey, Carol, listen. One of the main components of this story today is going to be not just these images, but how the Arab world reacts when they see them this afternoon. We have been watching some of the Arab networks here in Kuwait City as we flip through the cable system here, and they are showing these images, probably not as liberally as we are right now. They have been on the air, but again, not as often as we have been watching here on CNN. Abdul-Rida Assiri is from Kuwait University, a political science professor. He joins me live here this afternoon in Kuwait City.
Nice to see you again.

ABDUL-RIDA ASSIRI, KUWAIT UNIVERSITY: Nice to see you. Thank you, sir.

HEMMER: We've spoken a couple of times now over the past three weeks.

What do you think the Arab world says and thinks and feels when they see these images, not so much of the looting side, but the celebrating side?

ASSIRI: Well, you know, a celebration perhaps tells a deeper message. You know, those people have been under a dictatorship for over 30 years, one man rule. And now is the time that they feel at least they can, you know, breathe, you know, a fresh, a free air. And they want to express that feeling.

People like in Kuwait and other places that, you know, appreciate how hard it is to be under, you know, external or internal dictators, they will appreciate it. People who hate the United States always, they will think this is, you know, mock trial. This is a theater.

HEMMER: They're never going to change their minds anyway. Let me ask you, but this, when it comes down to the media and the images right now we see on the Arab networks like Al Jazeera, I've been watching it for about 51 minutes right now. I have seen a little bit of the celebrations, a little more of the looting, but not much, not nearly as much as our viewers right now are watching CNN back in the U.S.

What explains that? Can you answer that for us?

ASSIRI: Well, you know, it is, it's a problem that within the Arab mentality there is, you know, a conspiracy syndrome. There is a feeling that whatever the United States does, it's bad, it's wrong, it's evil. And what the Arabs do is the right thing. So within that mentality, they will, you know, classify all United States actions, whether it's right or wrong. Now, perhaps, now is a time for the United States to, you know, to show otherwise, that it's coming here, you know, really not for good, not to stay here permanently, but to liberate a land and give to a regime which...

HEMMER: Which is clearly the challenge ahead.

ASSIRI: ... I think this is a challenge and the United States has been able to, you know, to deal with it very delicately and very, you know, concise and very humane manners, particularly when it's dealing with, you know, with the casualties, the material damages.

So I think, you know, a message is there. Now the Arab media, how would they deal with it? But the Arab media mostly, particularly, they are anti-status quo regimes and anti-United States. And that will take a while to change it...

HEMMER: A while perhaps...

ASSIRI: ... particularly...

HEMMER: Some people may suggest a generation.

Hold your thought one second, OK?

By telephone, Roland Huguenin-Bejamin calling in from Baghdad. He's with the International Committee of the Red Cross.

Sir, thanks for checking in.

What have you observed from your location there?

ROLAND HUGUENIN-BENJAMIN, INTERNATIONAL COMMITTEE OF THE RED CROSS: Well, what we observed today is that there is a big problem of lack of security in the area where the military engagement has been going on. We are very concerned that a large number of casualties have not been evacuated because they were coming under crossfire and they were opening fire immediately on anything moving near the victims, trying to evacuate casualties.

HEMMER: Have you been out yet today, sir, to observe? And what have you observed at that time?

HUGUENIN-BENJAMIN: We have observed that yesterday and we are very concerned because one of our convoys -- two clearly identified ICRC cars with flags on have been hit directly. We are extremely concerned about the fate of one Canadian logistician who was in that car who is seriously wounded and it has proved impossible to reach access to where he is in order to evacuate him and it may prove fatal to him.

We desperately need to (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...

HEMMER: Well, why is that impossible? Why is that impossible? Is it the looters in the street? Is it the U.S. military? Give me a better description, if you can.

HUGUENIN-BENJAMIN: It is impossible to reach that street and many others similarly because fire is opened immediately whenever anybody approaches. We have seen in the last stretch in the south of Baghdad that there were numerous casualties and there was no chance of ever even getting close because fire was often immediately on anything moving. And that's not acceptable. Casualties must be evacuated.

HEMMER: Yes, and based on what you've seen, how many people would you say have been on the streets of Baghdad today, sir?

HUGUENIN-BENJAMIN: I have no idea about today because since we have been locked in this accident, we have had to suspend all movement currently until we have the support of whoever can help and evacuate our convoy and our colleague. We are not taking chancres today. We cannot move. We have had to suspend activities temporarily, hoping this can be solved. It is a crisis and it has to be solved. We want to be active. We want to be able to move around and help the hospitals. But we definitely need that the Red Cross and ambulances be respected and be able to move about freely.

HEMMER: How much fighting is ongoing in Baghdad that you've experienced or gotten reports of today?

HUGUENIN-BENJAMIN: We never comment on military developments. You will appreciate it as a strictly humanitarian organization.

HEMMER: All right, Roland Huguenin-Benjamin with the International Committee of the Red Cross in Baghdad.

Thanks, again.

Back to our guest quickly. We were interrupted just because we wanted to find out what's happening in Baghdad. We're going to get back to that a bit later.

What does it take right now for the United States to put this country back together again?

ASSIRI: First of all, as you see from the pictures, you know, there is a vacuum of security. You know, law and order is not there. It's time now for the United States to move, you know, to fill this gap and ensure the life and property of people. So this is, I think, the first thing.

Perhaps the United States could work in alignment with the forces, with the local forces in these places, with the tribes, perhaps, with the religious element, (UNINTELLIGIBLE) to ones that's, you know, taken care and the regime is officially fallen, to have them there is, you know, a need to, you know, set up an interim authority, an American authority that will, you know, normalize things, retain, you know, the infrastructure and, you know, the water, the electricity, the things (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

HEMMER: But in the near term, though, based on what we saw in Basra the last two days, based on what we're seeing in Baghdad today, if this continues, you're going to have the British and U.S. militaries and present company in Iraq that will essentially have to police the country.

Do you think the Iraqis are prepared for that?

ASSIRI: Well, the Iraqis certainly are prepared to police themselves. Perhaps they need, you know, external force. As you know, you know, after 35 years of one man show, one man rule, a dictators, you know, a police state, then there is, you know, a lack of all, you know, means of stability, means of security, means of, you know, personal life.

Therefore, I think the Iraqis perhaps would like to see even Americans there for a while, until the situation is, you know, settled. There is, you know, perhaps a great deal of revenge, people, you know, who lost dear ones and there are hundreds upon thousands upon thousands. They might, you know, there is a reason that civil war might take place. There is a reason that, you know, external forces would try to, perhaps, you know, affect the development of things within Iraq.

So there is a need for America and for Britain to be there until something is, you know, has been set in momentum.

HEMMER: Now, listen, it has been said by the Pentagon and Central Command again today, underlining and reiterating the fact that this war is not over, fighting continues in the north. It could, again, flare up again in Baghdad, based on the reporting we're getting from the Red Cross so far today.

As a Kuwaiti, it is one step further to be under Saddam Hussein, one step further to the end of this war. Today, as you sit here this afternoon, how does that make you feel?

ASSIRI: Certainly not only as a Kuwaiti, as a human being, as an Arab, as, you know, a man of this region, a man who's been a victim of this regime, perhaps the Iraqis will have, you know, a better taste. I feel much better. I feel, you know, that one man rule, a dictator era has gone. And perhaps Iraq will have an opportunity again to choose a democratic, you know, to see a Kuwaiti model, perhaps, you know, close up to their lands.

HEMMER: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) a democracy here in Kuwait, though.

ASSIRI: Well, you know, you don't expect democracy in a Third World country. You have to, you know, to see the constraints, the culture, the religions, the political energies. You know, we cannot replicate the Western concept of United States or Britain. Each has, you know, that's a different value, a different environment and this is a different environment.

But, you know, a medium, a small sample of democracy, where you can express your all. You get out, you are not afraid of being harassed or otherwise. So the Iraqis have to decide on that and the Americans perhaps has given them an opportunity to do that. HEMMER: You subscribe to the theory that some do back in the United States that if Iraq is transformed into some level, some measure of democracy, that countries like Saudi Arabia, perhaps Iran, with a strong youth movement for reform that's under way right now in that country, maybe Syria, perhaps Jordan, do you think they would follow a similar line and reform themselves on their own?

ASSIRI: Well, you should -- you know, you cannot compare...

HEMMER: Is that a pipe dream?

ASSIRI: Perhaps a dream. You cannot compare the Iraqi regime with those regimes. Each regime has its own, you know, setting and its own conditions, and the conditions in Iraq are different than the conditions in others.

Perhaps the most, you know, regime that's linked its fate and the future on things, you know, the security of its country's (UNINTELLIGIBLE) on the security of Iraq is Syria. Syria perhaps would be more, you know, affected, perhaps more worried some, unlike the others. The others at least, you know, the question of legitimacy has been dealt with, whether a tribal, you know, Islamic or, you know, constitution of democratic. But in Syria, you know, you've got, you know, perhaps a setting that could set the condition for some changes, not the changes from external but the changes from...

(CROSSTALK)

HEMMER: Always good to talk to you. Abul-Rida Assiri from Kuwait University, good luck to you, all right?

ASSIRI: Thank you, sir.

HEMMER: Thank you for coming by again today.

ASSIRI: Thank you.

HEMMER: We're going to get the CENTCOM briefing any moment right now down in Qatar at Central Command. Before we get to that, though, let's get back to Carol at the CNN Center -- Carol.

COSTELLO: All right, thank you, Bill.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com







Aired April 9, 2003 - 06:49   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Hey, Carol, listen. One of the main components of this story today is going to be not just these images, but how the Arab world reacts when they see them this afternoon. We have been watching some of the Arab networks here in Kuwait City as we flip through the cable system here, and they are showing these images, probably not as liberally as we are right now. They have been on the air, but again, not as often as we have been watching here on CNN. Abdul-Rida Assiri is from Kuwait University, a political science professor. He joins me live here this afternoon in Kuwait City.
Nice to see you again.

ABDUL-RIDA ASSIRI, KUWAIT UNIVERSITY: Nice to see you. Thank you, sir.

HEMMER: We've spoken a couple of times now over the past three weeks.

What do you think the Arab world says and thinks and feels when they see these images, not so much of the looting side, but the celebrating side?

ASSIRI: Well, you know, a celebration perhaps tells a deeper message. You know, those people have been under a dictatorship for over 30 years, one man rule. And now is the time that they feel at least they can, you know, breathe, you know, a fresh, a free air. And they want to express that feeling.

People like in Kuwait and other places that, you know, appreciate how hard it is to be under, you know, external or internal dictators, they will appreciate it. People who hate the United States always, they will think this is, you know, mock trial. This is a theater.

HEMMER: They're never going to change their minds anyway. Let me ask you, but this, when it comes down to the media and the images right now we see on the Arab networks like Al Jazeera, I've been watching it for about 51 minutes right now. I have seen a little bit of the celebrations, a little more of the looting, but not much, not nearly as much as our viewers right now are watching CNN back in the U.S.

What explains that? Can you answer that for us?

ASSIRI: Well, you know, it is, it's a problem that within the Arab mentality there is, you know, a conspiracy syndrome. There is a feeling that whatever the United States does, it's bad, it's wrong, it's evil. And what the Arabs do is the right thing. So within that mentality, they will, you know, classify all United States actions, whether it's right or wrong. Now, perhaps, now is a time for the United States to, you know, to show otherwise, that it's coming here, you know, really not for good, not to stay here permanently, but to liberate a land and give to a regime which...

HEMMER: Which is clearly the challenge ahead.

ASSIRI: ... I think this is a challenge and the United States has been able to, you know, to deal with it very delicately and very, you know, concise and very humane manners, particularly when it's dealing with, you know, with the casualties, the material damages.

So I think, you know, a message is there. Now the Arab media, how would they deal with it? But the Arab media mostly, particularly, they are anti-status quo regimes and anti-United States. And that will take a while to change it...

HEMMER: A while perhaps...

ASSIRI: ... particularly...

HEMMER: Some people may suggest a generation.

Hold your thought one second, OK?

By telephone, Roland Huguenin-Bejamin calling in from Baghdad. He's with the International Committee of the Red Cross.

Sir, thanks for checking in.

What have you observed from your location there?

ROLAND HUGUENIN-BENJAMIN, INTERNATIONAL COMMITTEE OF THE RED CROSS: Well, what we observed today is that there is a big problem of lack of security in the area where the military engagement has been going on. We are very concerned that a large number of casualties have not been evacuated because they were coming under crossfire and they were opening fire immediately on anything moving near the victims, trying to evacuate casualties.

HEMMER: Have you been out yet today, sir, to observe? And what have you observed at that time?

HUGUENIN-BENJAMIN: We have observed that yesterday and we are very concerned because one of our convoys -- two clearly identified ICRC cars with flags on have been hit directly. We are extremely concerned about the fate of one Canadian logistician who was in that car who is seriously wounded and it has proved impossible to reach access to where he is in order to evacuate him and it may prove fatal to him.

We desperately need to (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...

HEMMER: Well, why is that impossible? Why is that impossible? Is it the looters in the street? Is it the U.S. military? Give me a better description, if you can.

HUGUENIN-BENJAMIN: It is impossible to reach that street and many others similarly because fire is opened immediately whenever anybody approaches. We have seen in the last stretch in the south of Baghdad that there were numerous casualties and there was no chance of ever even getting close because fire was often immediately on anything moving. And that's not acceptable. Casualties must be evacuated.

HEMMER: Yes, and based on what you've seen, how many people would you say have been on the streets of Baghdad today, sir?

HUGUENIN-BENJAMIN: I have no idea about today because since we have been locked in this accident, we have had to suspend all movement currently until we have the support of whoever can help and evacuate our convoy and our colleague. We are not taking chancres today. We cannot move. We have had to suspend activities temporarily, hoping this can be solved. It is a crisis and it has to be solved. We want to be active. We want to be able to move around and help the hospitals. But we definitely need that the Red Cross and ambulances be respected and be able to move about freely.

HEMMER: How much fighting is ongoing in Baghdad that you've experienced or gotten reports of today?

HUGUENIN-BENJAMIN: We never comment on military developments. You will appreciate it as a strictly humanitarian organization.

HEMMER: All right, Roland Huguenin-Benjamin with the International Committee of the Red Cross in Baghdad.

Thanks, again.

Back to our guest quickly. We were interrupted just because we wanted to find out what's happening in Baghdad. We're going to get back to that a bit later.

What does it take right now for the United States to put this country back together again?

ASSIRI: First of all, as you see from the pictures, you know, there is a vacuum of security. You know, law and order is not there. It's time now for the United States to move, you know, to fill this gap and ensure the life and property of people. So this is, I think, the first thing.

Perhaps the United States could work in alignment with the forces, with the local forces in these places, with the tribes, perhaps, with the religious element, (UNINTELLIGIBLE) to ones that's, you know, taken care and the regime is officially fallen, to have them there is, you know, a need to, you know, set up an interim authority, an American authority that will, you know, normalize things, retain, you know, the infrastructure and, you know, the water, the electricity, the things (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

HEMMER: But in the near term, though, based on what we saw in Basra the last two days, based on what we're seeing in Baghdad today, if this continues, you're going to have the British and U.S. militaries and present company in Iraq that will essentially have to police the country.

Do you think the Iraqis are prepared for that?

ASSIRI: Well, the Iraqis certainly are prepared to police themselves. Perhaps they need, you know, external force. As you know, you know, after 35 years of one man show, one man rule, a dictators, you know, a police state, then there is, you know, a lack of all, you know, means of stability, means of security, means of, you know, personal life.

Therefore, I think the Iraqis perhaps would like to see even Americans there for a while, until the situation is, you know, settled. There is, you know, perhaps a great deal of revenge, people, you know, who lost dear ones and there are hundreds upon thousands upon thousands. They might, you know, there is a reason that civil war might take place. There is a reason that, you know, external forces would try to, perhaps, you know, affect the development of things within Iraq.

So there is a need for America and for Britain to be there until something is, you know, has been set in momentum.

HEMMER: Now, listen, it has been said by the Pentagon and Central Command again today, underlining and reiterating the fact that this war is not over, fighting continues in the north. It could, again, flare up again in Baghdad, based on the reporting we're getting from the Red Cross so far today.

As a Kuwaiti, it is one step further to be under Saddam Hussein, one step further to the end of this war. Today, as you sit here this afternoon, how does that make you feel?

ASSIRI: Certainly not only as a Kuwaiti, as a human being, as an Arab, as, you know, a man of this region, a man who's been a victim of this regime, perhaps the Iraqis will have, you know, a better taste. I feel much better. I feel, you know, that one man rule, a dictator era has gone. And perhaps Iraq will have an opportunity again to choose a democratic, you know, to see a Kuwaiti model, perhaps, you know, close up to their lands.

HEMMER: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) a democracy here in Kuwait, though.

ASSIRI: Well, you know, you don't expect democracy in a Third World country. You have to, you know, to see the constraints, the culture, the religions, the political energies. You know, we cannot replicate the Western concept of United States or Britain. Each has, you know, that's a different value, a different environment and this is a different environment.

But, you know, a medium, a small sample of democracy, where you can express your all. You get out, you are not afraid of being harassed or otherwise. So the Iraqis have to decide on that and the Americans perhaps has given them an opportunity to do that. HEMMER: You subscribe to the theory that some do back in the United States that if Iraq is transformed into some level, some measure of democracy, that countries like Saudi Arabia, perhaps Iran, with a strong youth movement for reform that's under way right now in that country, maybe Syria, perhaps Jordan, do you think they would follow a similar line and reform themselves on their own?

ASSIRI: Well, you should -- you know, you cannot compare...

HEMMER: Is that a pipe dream?

ASSIRI: Perhaps a dream. You cannot compare the Iraqi regime with those regimes. Each regime has its own, you know, setting and its own conditions, and the conditions in Iraq are different than the conditions in others.

Perhaps the most, you know, regime that's linked its fate and the future on things, you know, the security of its country's (UNINTELLIGIBLE) on the security of Iraq is Syria. Syria perhaps would be more, you know, affected, perhaps more worried some, unlike the others. The others at least, you know, the question of legitimacy has been dealt with, whether a tribal, you know, Islamic or, you know, constitution of democratic. But in Syria, you know, you've got, you know, perhaps a setting that could set the condition for some changes, not the changes from external but the changes from...

(CROSSTALK)

HEMMER: Always good to talk to you. Abul-Rida Assiri from Kuwait University, good luck to you, all right?

ASSIRI: Thank you, sir.

HEMMER: Thank you for coming by again today.

ASSIRI: Thank you.

HEMMER: We're going to get the CENTCOM briefing any moment right now down in Qatar at Central Command. Before we get to that, though, let's get back to Carol at the CNN Center -- Carol.

COSTELLO: All right, thank you, Bill.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com