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Saddam Statue Comes Down in Firdos Square

Aired April 09, 2003 - 10:45   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: Barbara Starr has some breaking news out of the Pentagon. Barbara, we're going to keep our eye on this picture, but what do you have?
BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, I don't know if it is breaking news, but I can tell you when that the American flag went up, there was an almost audible gasp in some Pentagon offices here. This was not the picture the Pentagon wanted to see.

Christiane is right, often in wartime soldiers do undertake these signs of celebration when they believe they have achieved victory, and it may well be that this small group of troops was just going to put up that flag very briefly and take it down, but of course, not a good reaction from the people there in Baghdad. And the Pentagon has made it very clear, through General Tommy Franks, out to the troops in the field that this is not about American victory over this country. This is about liberating this country. So the Pentagon is a little happier now, we can tell you, that they see this change of image.

Now, as darkness begins to fall in Baghdad the question is being raised here, what will happen in the city? There are a vast number of American troops there, but they are not wanting to be an occupation force. However, we are told today things are moving so quickly that there is a bit of a scramble on to figure out how to establish security in the city, to try and prevent lawlessness, to bring some civil order to the capital in case some of these celebrations go on, in case some of them get out of hand. There were the pictures of looting earlier today. The U.S. military wants to do everything it can, we are told, to bring as much order to the process as possible. But not become a visual occupation force on the streets of Baghdad. So all of this unfolding before our eyes.

ZAHN: And Barbara, what is the Pentagon saying about some of what Martin Savidge described just two miles away from this scene that we're watching right now on TV where he encountered heavy fire? He called it an all out engagement on the campus of Baghdad University.

STARR: This is the Pentagon and the military's biggest concern at the moment. They know there are pockets of resistance that continue throughout the city, throughout Iraq, especially in the north. They don't know when and where they're going to come across them. What is really interesting today, as you noticed, we haven't seen any aerial action over Baghdad. No bombs dropping from the air because there are so many civilians in the street. They are continuing to maintain air patrols, fighter patrols over Baghdad, and we asked about this. If they could identify a pocket of resistance, such as Baghdad University, and they were fairly sure they wouldn't inadvertently kill civilians, they would continue some sort of aerial action, aerial attack against these pockets of resistance. But they're becoming so small, so spread out throughout Baghdad it's going to be very tough, and they are going to have to be tracked down on the ground. The pockets of resistance are a concern, and the other concern that we're hearing about this morning is, indeed, in the north. They feel that there is still substantial resistance in the town of Tikrit in the north, the ancestral homeland of Saddam Hussein, and think that is still a situation they are going to have to deal with -- Paula.

ZAHN: And let's just come back to these sensitivities that the Pentagon brass had about the showing of that American flag ever so briefly on the top of Saddam Hussein's head. It now appears as though the pre-Gulf War Iraqi flag has come down.

Once again, just for folks that might not have caught the first part of your explanation, talk about this concern about the perception that coalition forces are occupiers, at least that is the perception on some Iraqis' part, and they want to fight that perception.

STARR: Exactly, Paula. What the Pentagon knows, what the U.S. military knows, is these pictures are being broadcast throughout the Arab world. They are being seen in the Arab world, and they are not being seen kindly because, of course, there are many sectors of the Arab world that genuinely believe that the U.S. military action in Iraq was not about liberation, but about occupation. There are many people in the Arab world that believe it was about the U.S. military, for example, taking over Iraq's oil industry, all of that. The Pentagon has worked very hard to try and not show those images -- Paula.

ZAHN: Barbara Starr, we are going to break away from you to catch up with Simon Robinson, who is standing by in the square where it looks like the statue is ready to go -- Simon.

SIMON ROBINSON, "TIME": The Marines have attached a chain around the neck of Saddam, and now are reversing this large tank away from the statue and looks like -- looks like it's about to go, as you said.

When the American flag went up, there were no boos, but not much -- not many cheers either. And then the pre-Kuwait war, pre-Gulf War Iraqi flag was brought out, and there were cheers, a lot of clapping, cries. Of course, the Iraqi flag changed after the Gulf War. Saddam added a religious message in the middle of the flag. And the flag that was put up there was the old Iraqi flag, the flag, I guess that older Iraqis remember from the days before Saddam.

This tank now is reversing through a crowd of a few hundred people, perhaps a thousand people. Reversing away from the statue. I'm not sure how far back it has to get before this statue will start toppling. It's late afternoon in Iraq. Next to -- on the other side of the square, I can see, there's a large mosque -- there is a large hotel behind me. And all around, Iraqi families out watching this momentous occasion in Baghdad and history.

ZAHN: Simon, as we watch this, I wanted to ask you a question about whether you were aware of any kind of command that went out to these Marines to bring that American flag down, because there is so much sensitivity about, perhaps, this being seen as a sign of occupation, not liberation?

ROBINSON: I'm not sure in this instance, but I do know that through the campaign, Marines have been told to take flags off vehicles. They weren't allowed to fly the flags from tanks or armored personnel carriers or anything like that. That was definitely a directive. And I know, in the case of the battalion I was traveling with, the colonel often made a point of telling his troops, If you score a try -- if you score touchdown in a football match, just act as if you've done it before. Walk back to the halfway line, and get ready for the next play. There's not to be any cheering, there's no sense of triumphantalism (ph). He often tells his troops, Act as if you've been to the barbecue before. Don't act as if it's your first barbecue. In other words, don't get too excited, just act as if it's something you've done before, even if you happen to be 19 years old, and perhaps on your first overseas trip, which is to Iraq. So there's definitely been directives from above not to be too triumphal about this whole thing.

ZAHN: So you were saying, when the American flag went for a very short period of time, there were no boos, but there was no cheering either, but it wasn't until the Iraqi flag was wrapped around the neck of Saddam, that there was real cheering going on?

ROBINSON: Exactly. Exactly. And they are now tightening -- the statue is starting to topple -- it is coming forward. They're winding in the chains, they're not moving the vehicle back, they are just bringing it in, rather like a tow truck. And in fact, the left -- the right leg has snapped, and the left leg is going as pieces of debris are coming off the statue, and now it falls. A cheer goes around the square. People are waving their hands. And the statue, the hollow statue of Saddam is left dangling from this marble splint (ph). People now throwing objects at it, throwing rocks and pieces of (UNINTELLIGIBLE) anything they can find, throwing dirt up into his face.

ZAHN: Does it look like that tow truck vehicle will try to move back so Saddam's not left in this dangling position, be taken to the ground?

ROBINSON: It is moving very slightly. And they are again, they're tightening that -- it's almost that they will seemingly pull it off the pedestal completely. They're clearing people away. And now it's come off completely and fallen to the ground. More cheers go up. And people are now on the statue of Saddam, dancing up and down. People are rushing to the square to, in fact, jump on the statue of Saddam. Mostly they are men in there. The women and children seem to be standing back. I see families, though, getting closer, someone holding a child up to see the scene. People are bouncing up and down on this hollow statue of Saddam.

ZAHN: Simon if you would, could you hold your phone away from your mouth, and maybe we can hear some of the ambient sound coming from the crowd? ROBINSON: I will walk closer to the scene, and I will hold the phone up. I'm now nearly at the scene. The sound of the tanks might drown out some of the cheers, but I'll hold the phone up.

That was the sound of Iraqis cheering and jumping on that statue.

ZAHN: Can you give us an idea, Simon, how many more people have arrived now that the statue is down? I think you said -- at one point you thought that maybe there were a thousand people in the square?

ROBINSON: I'd say there would be 1,500 people now, and I -- as I'm up near where the statue was, I can look down the street, and there's a lot of vehicles arriving from the southeastern direction, which is of course, the direction that the Marines arrived from today, so it's an area that's been cleared, that it's relatively safe. And more people arriving all the time. This square is really starting to fill up.

ZAHN: And a lot of symbolism at play here. You were saying that this is the pre-Gulf War flag that is attached or they're attempting to attach to the base of what used to be the statue of Saddam Hussein. And I guess the one thing that is missing from this is what was added after the Gulf War, which is a religious statement saying "God is great"?

ROBINSON: Exactly. This is a pre-Gulf War flag that they're putting up, a flag that existed between the country's independence, in the middle of last century, and some young men are attaching it to the flint (ph) where, until a few moments ago, Saddam stood.

ZAHN: Simon, the last time we spoke with you, you were describing some of the Marines breaking away after hearing some gunfire, you thought, coming in from the west. What happened with that?

ROBINSON: I'm not sure. It seemed to come are from a building on the western side of the square, but no gunshots since then. And the Marines again are relaxed. I can see one Marine with some yellow flowers given to him by an Iraqi, and he's put them in his Kevlar helmet, and other Marines walking around without helmets on, with just their floppy sun hats. Most still have their helmets on, and most are kind of aware of the situation around them, but relatively relaxed, I would say.

ZAHN: Well, Simon, if you wouldn't mind standing by...

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com






Aired April 9, 2003 - 10:45   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: Barbara Starr has some breaking news out of the Pentagon. Barbara, we're going to keep our eye on this picture, but what do you have?
BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, I don't know if it is breaking news, but I can tell you when that the American flag went up, there was an almost audible gasp in some Pentagon offices here. This was not the picture the Pentagon wanted to see.

Christiane is right, often in wartime soldiers do undertake these signs of celebration when they believe they have achieved victory, and it may well be that this small group of troops was just going to put up that flag very briefly and take it down, but of course, not a good reaction from the people there in Baghdad. And the Pentagon has made it very clear, through General Tommy Franks, out to the troops in the field that this is not about American victory over this country. This is about liberating this country. So the Pentagon is a little happier now, we can tell you, that they see this change of image.

Now, as darkness begins to fall in Baghdad the question is being raised here, what will happen in the city? There are a vast number of American troops there, but they are not wanting to be an occupation force. However, we are told today things are moving so quickly that there is a bit of a scramble on to figure out how to establish security in the city, to try and prevent lawlessness, to bring some civil order to the capital in case some of these celebrations go on, in case some of them get out of hand. There were the pictures of looting earlier today. The U.S. military wants to do everything it can, we are told, to bring as much order to the process as possible. But not become a visual occupation force on the streets of Baghdad. So all of this unfolding before our eyes.

ZAHN: And Barbara, what is the Pentagon saying about some of what Martin Savidge described just two miles away from this scene that we're watching right now on TV where he encountered heavy fire? He called it an all out engagement on the campus of Baghdad University.

STARR: This is the Pentagon and the military's biggest concern at the moment. They know there are pockets of resistance that continue throughout the city, throughout Iraq, especially in the north. They don't know when and where they're going to come across them. What is really interesting today, as you noticed, we haven't seen any aerial action over Baghdad. No bombs dropping from the air because there are so many civilians in the street. They are continuing to maintain air patrols, fighter patrols over Baghdad, and we asked about this. If they could identify a pocket of resistance, such as Baghdad University, and they were fairly sure they wouldn't inadvertently kill civilians, they would continue some sort of aerial action, aerial attack against these pockets of resistance. But they're becoming so small, so spread out throughout Baghdad it's going to be very tough, and they are going to have to be tracked down on the ground. The pockets of resistance are a concern, and the other concern that we're hearing about this morning is, indeed, in the north. They feel that there is still substantial resistance in the town of Tikrit in the north, the ancestral homeland of Saddam Hussein, and think that is still a situation they are going to have to deal with -- Paula.

ZAHN: And let's just come back to these sensitivities that the Pentagon brass had about the showing of that American flag ever so briefly on the top of Saddam Hussein's head. It now appears as though the pre-Gulf War Iraqi flag has come down.

Once again, just for folks that might not have caught the first part of your explanation, talk about this concern about the perception that coalition forces are occupiers, at least that is the perception on some Iraqis' part, and they want to fight that perception.

STARR: Exactly, Paula. What the Pentagon knows, what the U.S. military knows, is these pictures are being broadcast throughout the Arab world. They are being seen in the Arab world, and they are not being seen kindly because, of course, there are many sectors of the Arab world that genuinely believe that the U.S. military action in Iraq was not about liberation, but about occupation. There are many people in the Arab world that believe it was about the U.S. military, for example, taking over Iraq's oil industry, all of that. The Pentagon has worked very hard to try and not show those images -- Paula.

ZAHN: Barbara Starr, we are going to break away from you to catch up with Simon Robinson, who is standing by in the square where it looks like the statue is ready to go -- Simon.

SIMON ROBINSON, "TIME": The Marines have attached a chain around the neck of Saddam, and now are reversing this large tank away from the statue and looks like -- looks like it's about to go, as you said.

When the American flag went up, there were no boos, but not much -- not many cheers either. And then the pre-Kuwait war, pre-Gulf War Iraqi flag was brought out, and there were cheers, a lot of clapping, cries. Of course, the Iraqi flag changed after the Gulf War. Saddam added a religious message in the middle of the flag. And the flag that was put up there was the old Iraqi flag, the flag, I guess that older Iraqis remember from the days before Saddam.

This tank now is reversing through a crowd of a few hundred people, perhaps a thousand people. Reversing away from the statue. I'm not sure how far back it has to get before this statue will start toppling. It's late afternoon in Iraq. Next to -- on the other side of the square, I can see, there's a large mosque -- there is a large hotel behind me. And all around, Iraqi families out watching this momentous occasion in Baghdad and history.

ZAHN: Simon, as we watch this, I wanted to ask you a question about whether you were aware of any kind of command that went out to these Marines to bring that American flag down, because there is so much sensitivity about, perhaps, this being seen as a sign of occupation, not liberation?

ROBINSON: I'm not sure in this instance, but I do know that through the campaign, Marines have been told to take flags off vehicles. They weren't allowed to fly the flags from tanks or armored personnel carriers or anything like that. That was definitely a directive. And I know, in the case of the battalion I was traveling with, the colonel often made a point of telling his troops, If you score a try -- if you score touchdown in a football match, just act as if you've done it before. Walk back to the halfway line, and get ready for the next play. There's not to be any cheering, there's no sense of triumphantalism (ph). He often tells his troops, Act as if you've been to the barbecue before. Don't act as if it's your first barbecue. In other words, don't get too excited, just act as if it's something you've done before, even if you happen to be 19 years old, and perhaps on your first overseas trip, which is to Iraq. So there's definitely been directives from above not to be too triumphal about this whole thing.

ZAHN: So you were saying, when the American flag went for a very short period of time, there were no boos, but there was no cheering either, but it wasn't until the Iraqi flag was wrapped around the neck of Saddam, that there was real cheering going on?

ROBINSON: Exactly. Exactly. And they are now tightening -- the statue is starting to topple -- it is coming forward. They're winding in the chains, they're not moving the vehicle back, they are just bringing it in, rather like a tow truck. And in fact, the left -- the right leg has snapped, and the left leg is going as pieces of debris are coming off the statue, and now it falls. A cheer goes around the square. People are waving their hands. And the statue, the hollow statue of Saddam is left dangling from this marble splint (ph). People now throwing objects at it, throwing rocks and pieces of (UNINTELLIGIBLE) anything they can find, throwing dirt up into his face.

ZAHN: Does it look like that tow truck vehicle will try to move back so Saddam's not left in this dangling position, be taken to the ground?

ROBINSON: It is moving very slightly. And they are again, they're tightening that -- it's almost that they will seemingly pull it off the pedestal completely. They're clearing people away. And now it's come off completely and fallen to the ground. More cheers go up. And people are now on the statue of Saddam, dancing up and down. People are rushing to the square to, in fact, jump on the statue of Saddam. Mostly they are men in there. The women and children seem to be standing back. I see families, though, getting closer, someone holding a child up to see the scene. People are bouncing up and down on this hollow statue of Saddam.

ZAHN: Simon if you would, could you hold your phone away from your mouth, and maybe we can hear some of the ambient sound coming from the crowd? ROBINSON: I will walk closer to the scene, and I will hold the phone up. I'm now nearly at the scene. The sound of the tanks might drown out some of the cheers, but I'll hold the phone up.

That was the sound of Iraqis cheering and jumping on that statue.

ZAHN: Can you give us an idea, Simon, how many more people have arrived now that the statue is down? I think you said -- at one point you thought that maybe there were a thousand people in the square?

ROBINSON: I'd say there would be 1,500 people now, and I -- as I'm up near where the statue was, I can look down the street, and there's a lot of vehicles arriving from the southeastern direction, which is of course, the direction that the Marines arrived from today, so it's an area that's been cleared, that it's relatively safe. And more people arriving all the time. This square is really starting to fill up.

ZAHN: And a lot of symbolism at play here. You were saying that this is the pre-Gulf War flag that is attached or they're attempting to attach to the base of what used to be the statue of Saddam Hussein. And I guess the one thing that is missing from this is what was added after the Gulf War, which is a religious statement saying "God is great"?

ROBINSON: Exactly. This is a pre-Gulf War flag that they're putting up, a flag that existed between the country's independence, in the middle of last century, and some young men are attaching it to the flint (ph) where, until a few moments ago, Saddam stood.

ZAHN: Simon, the last time we spoke with you, you were describing some of the Marines breaking away after hearing some gunfire, you thought, coming in from the west. What happened with that?

ROBINSON: I'm not sure. It seemed to come are from a building on the western side of the square, but no gunshots since then. And the Marines again are relaxed. I can see one Marine with some yellow flowers given to him by an Iraqi, and he's put them in his Kevlar helmet, and other Marines walking around without helmets on, with just their floppy sun hats. Most still have their helmets on, and most are kind of aware of the situation around them, but relatively relaxed, I would say.

ZAHN: Well, Simon, if you wouldn't mind standing by...

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com