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CNN Live Today

Last American Diplomat to Meet Hussein Speaks

Aired April 09, 2003 - 11:08   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: I've just learned we've been able to establish contact with Martin Savidge, who we were talking to about an hour ago when Baghdad University was under heavy fire. Martin, can you tell us what happened and what's going on now?
MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, all is quiet right now on the campus of Baghdad University. You can see directly in the background here, these are the buildings that were actually involved in the firefight. You can also see the statue there of Saddam dressed in, I guess, graduation gear it looks like.

The firefight ended. We're not exactly sure who was firing. They were firing from within the buildings behind us here and at the same time while that firing was taking place because there was so much artillery fire, tank fire, heavy machine gun fire, mortar fire going on, it apparently touched off a huge cache of it seemed like anti- aircraft artillery that literally burned and exploded for the next 45 minutes even after the fighting had subsided.

There were shells flying through the air, mortar rounds going off and just it sounded like World War III had broken out. But there also had been a heavy fight with the Marines. The Marines now have obviously taken control of the campus. The fires have been extinguished. And the fighting has stopped and the campus is under the control of the 1st Battalion 7th Marines here. So it was quite a wild scene to begin with, but it is over now.

ZAHN: And what do they think has happened to the fighters involved with this firefight, Martin?

SAVIDGE: I don't know as yet. We just managed to extricate ourselves out of the alfalfa patch that we had been embedded in after we plowed through a brick wall on the outskirts of the campus as the Marines charged in. That was quite a shattering experience. And then we had an RPG that flew past us and impacted the wall next to us.

So in the confusion of trying to get ourselves out of the battlefield, I haven't been able to find out exactly what happened to those that were firing from inside the campus. But it was a very heavy firefight for quite some time, and we're still waiting to find out exactly who is responsible and where they are right now, if they withdrew or if they were taken out or if they have been captured by the Marines. That point is not clear -- Paula.

ZAHN: Martin, I don't know whether the news has reached you, but we've been comparing and contrasting what you've been through with what we just witnessed down at a central square, the Firdo Square (ph) across from the Palestine hotel in downtown Baghdad, and that was a two-hour effort on the part of Iraqi civilians to pull down a statue of Saddam Hussein. They eventually succeeded along with the help of some Marines. Had you heard that? had the news reached to your division in the Marines?

SAVIDGE: No, it hadn't. But you know, just prior to this firefight beginning we had been passing through street after street of jubilation, people coming out, standing in huge throngs, men, women, and children, waving, shouting, blowing kisses, waving scarves, waving flags, and cheering with the V for victory sign and the thumbs up sign. So it was amazing the contrast we went through in the span of 30 seconds.

The moment we came around the corner to the area of the campus of Baghdad University, the first thing I noticed was that the streets were deserted. And that was a tipoff. But apparently the people that live here knew something might happen, and then sure enough no sooner did we start passing the campus when we began getting RPG fire and it sounded like machine gun fire, and that's when it all kicked off after that point. So it appears even the people in the area knew there might be trouble, but that trouble appears to be over -- Paula.

ZAHN: All right, Martin. Thanks so much for that update.

We were concerned because we knew his vehicle was disabled for a while. And the engine actually being worked on while he was filing a report just a little over an hour ago. We're going to keep our eyes on this live picture. For those of you who were with us when we saw the statue come down in Firdo Square (ph), apparently now parts of it have been removed and are being pulled through the streets of Baghdad.

Joining us now from our Washington Bureau is Joe Wilson, the last American diplomat to meet face to face with Saddam Hussein.

Clearly, Joe, there is tremendous symbolism to seeing this scene play out on television, something even the Iraqi information minister I don't think could betray today.

JOE WILSON, DIPLOMAT: Well, good morning, Paula.

You're absolutely right. I don't think anybody's seen the information minister this morning as far as I can tell. But yes, clearly pulling down the statues of Saddam around the city and -- I was actually there when the first one of the big statues went up in the Arab Knight Square (ph), and when that happened Saddam's thugs went around the country telling everybody who had used the term Arab Knight (ph) in their businesses, be it the Arab Knight dry cleaner the Arab Knight (ph) restaurant, the thugs went around and told them all that there was only one Arab Knight in the country and they were not it and therefore they should change the name of their establishment.

So great irony in seeing the Arab Knight's (ph) head being dragged through the streets now.

ZAHN: Let me ask you this. This statue went up last year on Saddam's 65th birthday. We know the statue came down before his 66th birthday, on April 28th. Do you think he's still alive?

WILSON: Well, I have no idea. I suspect that if he were dead that word would have gone out pretty quickly. But lord only knows. I guess there's a lot pieces of bodies in that bomb site from yesterday. And I suspect they'll be doing some forensic analysis on what's left.

ZAHN: And ambassador, we've talked a lot this morning about how quickly things are moving. And how the Pentagon is going to have to sort of change its combat plan to some kind of a plan where you establish security. Describe to us what has got to be done here and done in a way that you're not seeing as an occupying force.

JOE WILSON: Well, I think in the first instance it's going to be important to stop the looting sooner rather than later and impose some sort of police type security in the major cities of Iraq. And that may well include martial law. The Marines and the army who are there now will have to shift into more of a policing operation in the short term. And just try and restore order so that this doesn't become really just civil strife leading to revenge killings through not just Baghdad but also Basra and some of the other large cities.

The second thing I think is important to do is to get as much humanitarian assistance to these cities as quickly as possible. Three days after they're liberated if they're hungry and thirsty and sick they're not going to feel very good about the situation they're in or about their so-called liberators. So those are the two things that in the immediate aftermath of this we -- it seems to me that be focusing on.

ZAHN: Well, let me ask you this. Are you confident that will happen? Because we talked with the head of the international red cross yesterday, who is stationed in Baghdad, and he said there is a looming humanitarian crisis.

WILSON: Well, one of the things that the U.S. Military does pretty well, it responds to crises. They can devote a lot of assets and a lot of resources to it very quickly. And I have no doubt that they will do their best to make that happen. Over the longer term it seems to me they will want to bring in the NGO community and the humanitarian relief organizations rather quickly and hand off some of those responsibilities to them.

They're the ones who have done this for many, many years and in many other types of crises. So as soon as there is some reasonable security in the big cities, I would think that the military would want to get out of the business of handling humanitarian relief and hand it off to those who are better placed to do it.

ZAHN: The pentagon making it very clear to us today this is not over, there's still a lot of danger that faces coalition troops. And we've been hearing these disturbing reports, although not completely surprising, that members of the Republican Guard have been seen taking off their uniforms, putting on civilian clothes, dispersing. It's not clear whether they will re-emerge to fight again. How concerned are you about those fighters? And even the more -- the ones that aren't even attached to a paramilitary unit, that apparently are well armed and pretty well placed.

WILSON: Well, if you believe Tariq Aziz, he said that they'd given several million guns to the population of Baghdad before this war started. So there probably are a lot of armaments out there. But I've always thought that however difficult or easy it would be to conquer Baghdad the much more difficult part would be the occupation and the extricating ourselves from this after the transition. It's going to have to be handled with some authority and some tenacity and some willingness on our part to spend the time necessary to cobble together the new administration, the new regime.

ZAHN: And finally, as the last American diplomat to meet face to face with Saddam Hussein, just a final thought on what you were thinking when you saw that statue come down.

WILSON: Well, the first line of my obituary, the last American diplomat to have met with Saddam Hussein. All I can say is good riddance, it's a brave new world for Iraq, and I certainly hope that they can make the most of it and get this nightmare behind them.

ZAHN: Ambassador Joe Wilson, always good to have you join us. Thanks for your insights.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com







Aired April 9, 2003 - 11:08   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: I've just learned we've been able to establish contact with Martin Savidge, who we were talking to about an hour ago when Baghdad University was under heavy fire. Martin, can you tell us what happened and what's going on now?
MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, all is quiet right now on the campus of Baghdad University. You can see directly in the background here, these are the buildings that were actually involved in the firefight. You can also see the statue there of Saddam dressed in, I guess, graduation gear it looks like.

The firefight ended. We're not exactly sure who was firing. They were firing from within the buildings behind us here and at the same time while that firing was taking place because there was so much artillery fire, tank fire, heavy machine gun fire, mortar fire going on, it apparently touched off a huge cache of it seemed like anti- aircraft artillery that literally burned and exploded for the next 45 minutes even after the fighting had subsided.

There were shells flying through the air, mortar rounds going off and just it sounded like World War III had broken out. But there also had been a heavy fight with the Marines. The Marines now have obviously taken control of the campus. The fires have been extinguished. And the fighting has stopped and the campus is under the control of the 1st Battalion 7th Marines here. So it was quite a wild scene to begin with, but it is over now.

ZAHN: And what do they think has happened to the fighters involved with this firefight, Martin?

SAVIDGE: I don't know as yet. We just managed to extricate ourselves out of the alfalfa patch that we had been embedded in after we plowed through a brick wall on the outskirts of the campus as the Marines charged in. That was quite a shattering experience. And then we had an RPG that flew past us and impacted the wall next to us.

So in the confusion of trying to get ourselves out of the battlefield, I haven't been able to find out exactly what happened to those that were firing from inside the campus. But it was a very heavy firefight for quite some time, and we're still waiting to find out exactly who is responsible and where they are right now, if they withdrew or if they were taken out or if they have been captured by the Marines. That point is not clear -- Paula.

ZAHN: Martin, I don't know whether the news has reached you, but we've been comparing and contrasting what you've been through with what we just witnessed down at a central square, the Firdo Square (ph) across from the Palestine hotel in downtown Baghdad, and that was a two-hour effort on the part of Iraqi civilians to pull down a statue of Saddam Hussein. They eventually succeeded along with the help of some Marines. Had you heard that? had the news reached to your division in the Marines?

SAVIDGE: No, it hadn't. But you know, just prior to this firefight beginning we had been passing through street after street of jubilation, people coming out, standing in huge throngs, men, women, and children, waving, shouting, blowing kisses, waving scarves, waving flags, and cheering with the V for victory sign and the thumbs up sign. So it was amazing the contrast we went through in the span of 30 seconds.

The moment we came around the corner to the area of the campus of Baghdad University, the first thing I noticed was that the streets were deserted. And that was a tipoff. But apparently the people that live here knew something might happen, and then sure enough no sooner did we start passing the campus when we began getting RPG fire and it sounded like machine gun fire, and that's when it all kicked off after that point. So it appears even the people in the area knew there might be trouble, but that trouble appears to be over -- Paula.

ZAHN: All right, Martin. Thanks so much for that update.

We were concerned because we knew his vehicle was disabled for a while. And the engine actually being worked on while he was filing a report just a little over an hour ago. We're going to keep our eyes on this live picture. For those of you who were with us when we saw the statue come down in Firdo Square (ph), apparently now parts of it have been removed and are being pulled through the streets of Baghdad.

Joining us now from our Washington Bureau is Joe Wilson, the last American diplomat to meet face to face with Saddam Hussein.

Clearly, Joe, there is tremendous symbolism to seeing this scene play out on television, something even the Iraqi information minister I don't think could betray today.

JOE WILSON, DIPLOMAT: Well, good morning, Paula.

You're absolutely right. I don't think anybody's seen the information minister this morning as far as I can tell. But yes, clearly pulling down the statues of Saddam around the city and -- I was actually there when the first one of the big statues went up in the Arab Knight Square (ph), and when that happened Saddam's thugs went around the country telling everybody who had used the term Arab Knight (ph) in their businesses, be it the Arab Knight dry cleaner the Arab Knight (ph) restaurant, the thugs went around and told them all that there was only one Arab Knight in the country and they were not it and therefore they should change the name of their establishment.

So great irony in seeing the Arab Knight's (ph) head being dragged through the streets now.

ZAHN: Let me ask you this. This statue went up last year on Saddam's 65th birthday. We know the statue came down before his 66th birthday, on April 28th. Do you think he's still alive?

WILSON: Well, I have no idea. I suspect that if he were dead that word would have gone out pretty quickly. But lord only knows. I guess there's a lot pieces of bodies in that bomb site from yesterday. And I suspect they'll be doing some forensic analysis on what's left.

ZAHN: And ambassador, we've talked a lot this morning about how quickly things are moving. And how the Pentagon is going to have to sort of change its combat plan to some kind of a plan where you establish security. Describe to us what has got to be done here and done in a way that you're not seeing as an occupying force.

JOE WILSON: Well, I think in the first instance it's going to be important to stop the looting sooner rather than later and impose some sort of police type security in the major cities of Iraq. And that may well include martial law. The Marines and the army who are there now will have to shift into more of a policing operation in the short term. And just try and restore order so that this doesn't become really just civil strife leading to revenge killings through not just Baghdad but also Basra and some of the other large cities.

The second thing I think is important to do is to get as much humanitarian assistance to these cities as quickly as possible. Three days after they're liberated if they're hungry and thirsty and sick they're not going to feel very good about the situation they're in or about their so-called liberators. So those are the two things that in the immediate aftermath of this we -- it seems to me that be focusing on.

ZAHN: Well, let me ask you this. Are you confident that will happen? Because we talked with the head of the international red cross yesterday, who is stationed in Baghdad, and he said there is a looming humanitarian crisis.

WILSON: Well, one of the things that the U.S. Military does pretty well, it responds to crises. They can devote a lot of assets and a lot of resources to it very quickly. And I have no doubt that they will do their best to make that happen. Over the longer term it seems to me they will want to bring in the NGO community and the humanitarian relief organizations rather quickly and hand off some of those responsibilities to them.

They're the ones who have done this for many, many years and in many other types of crises. So as soon as there is some reasonable security in the big cities, I would think that the military would want to get out of the business of handling humanitarian relief and hand it off to those who are better placed to do it.

ZAHN: The pentagon making it very clear to us today this is not over, there's still a lot of danger that faces coalition troops. And we've been hearing these disturbing reports, although not completely surprising, that members of the Republican Guard have been seen taking off their uniforms, putting on civilian clothes, dispersing. It's not clear whether they will re-emerge to fight again. How concerned are you about those fighters? And even the more -- the ones that aren't even attached to a paramilitary unit, that apparently are well armed and pretty well placed.

WILSON: Well, if you believe Tariq Aziz, he said that they'd given several million guns to the population of Baghdad before this war started. So there probably are a lot of armaments out there. But I've always thought that however difficult or easy it would be to conquer Baghdad the much more difficult part would be the occupation and the extricating ourselves from this after the transition. It's going to have to be handled with some authority and some tenacity and some willingness on our part to spend the time necessary to cobble together the new administration, the new regime.

ZAHN: And finally, as the last American diplomat to meet face to face with Saddam Hussein, just a final thought on what you were thinking when you saw that statue come down.

WILSON: Well, the first line of my obituary, the last American diplomat to have met with Saddam Hussein. All I can say is good riddance, it's a brave new world for Iraq, and I certainly hope that they can make the most of it and get this nightmare behind them.

ZAHN: Ambassador Joe Wilson, always good to have you join us. Thanks for your insights.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com