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CNN Live Today
Prominent Iraqi Shiite Leader Killed in Najaf
Aired April 10, 2003 - 11:03 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: Let's go to Baghdad. That's where our Walter Rodgers is now traveling on his own. Of course, if you've been watching our coverage, you know he has spent weeks embedded with the U.S. Army's 3-7th. He now is unembedded, as we like to say here in the region.
Walter, hello.
WALTER RODGERS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Daryn.
Imagine a city, living in a city a large metropolitan area like Baghdad, no electricity no telephones. That's what the 5 million to 6 million residents of Baghdad are now facing. There's been a total collapse of infrastructure. There is no starvation and there is ample water if you will, but most of the people cached food away. They have food, they have water, but they can't get through their own town, because U.S. Marine tanks are blocking major intersections, and they do feel intimidated by those tanks.
I've been off talking with Iraqis throughout most of the day, and they say, you know, even in the worst times of Saddam, he never ran his tanks into town. So they would really like to see some more freedom of movement. Of course, that's not possible, it's not feasible at this point.
One thing that frightens Iraqis most about the U.S. soldiers being here at this point, is basically the fact when night falls, and that's within the next hour or so, the shooting starts. The Fedayeen, the last of Saddam's soldiers, try to attack these U.S. positions, and then there are firefights, and then these city streets, which have become reasonably safe during the day become free fire zones, and that's of course the basic fear of most of the Iraqi citizens. These people have lives through a personal hell for the past few weeks -- Daryn.
KAGAN: Walter, I have a lot of questions for you, but I'm going to have to let you go right now, because we do have breaking news to the south of you, out of Najaf. We want to get the latest on this. Just into CNN, a prominent Iraqi Shiite leader has been killed in Najaf. Many considered the man, Abdul Majeed Al-Khoei, a likely candidate to help lead in a post-Saddam Iraq.
For more on that, we're going to go to Jim Lacey. He was with the 101st Airborne. He is a reporter for our sister publication "Time" magazine, and he is in Najaf right now.
Jim, what can you tell us about what happened there? JIM LACEY, "TIME" MAGAZINE: There's been a lot of speculation, a lot confusion and chaos trying to figure it out. The cleric himself was in exile in London for the last four years and came here with either the help of the United States or with their acknowledgement, and he was considered pro-Western. He was about to give a pro- Western, pro-U.S., pro-coalition speech to 35 Arab journalists, who the Army was flying in here early this morning.
Just before journalists arrived, there was the Army so-called an assassination attempt. There's been no confirmation from the U.S. military that he was actually killed. There is two reports, one that he was killed outright, and the second, that his attackers took him off and maybe publicly executed him some place else.
He was not under Army protection. He was staying at the Mosque of Ali, Tomb of Ali, one of the most holy shrines in the Muslim world. Why this attack does affect and maybe hurt U.S. interests, right now, the overwhelming belief and speculation is this is not an attack on American interests, this was another cleric who did not want to see his own power base eroded, and why it affects American interests, it's more interested in rivalry than it is an attack directly on America or America's interest.
KAGAN: Jim, while we still try to figure out exactly what happened to this man, if you can explain it -- and you started to do this -- but you can go a little bit more, the significance of this cleric in terms of post-Saddam Iraq.
LACEY: This cleric was, one, he was a very respected cleric. He is the son of the former grand ayatollah of this area. The current grand ayatollah was a student of his father, and he was probably the second or third in line. He's very well respected. When he was on street, people would bow. So many of the soldiers here (UNINTELLIGIBLE), they would get weak in the knees as he walked by, as a teenage reaction to a movie star or something, along those lines. That might be simplifying it.
But he's greatly respected, and he was pro-Western. He's been living in the West for a long time, and he was, you know, expecting to make a very pro-American and a very pro-coalition speech, and these people are already behind us, but this would have solidified the religious dimension, because a lot of the clerics are still sitting on the sidelines and waiting to see which way the wind falls for a number of reason. But he was a highly respected cleric, he was very pro- Western. He supported church and state as much as any cleric as possible in the Muslim world, and now he's dead.
So it's definitely going to have a negative impact on what America is trying to do, what the U.S. and coalition is trying to do here. But I think it's, as I said it's probably not -- whoever attacked him today probably did not have that in mind when they did it. It seems more of an internal power struggle at this time, and that's coming from a lot of sources.
KAGAN: Jim, I realize the situation in Najaf right now is a little iffy in terms of security, so I don't know if you've been able to do this type of reporting. But would an assassination attempt like this represent a split in the Shiite community in Najaf, that some want to see the community go in a certain direction and some want to see it go pro-Western?
LACEY: I'm going way outside of my lane here, but no one is saying this is a split in the community. I think the religious community is all going one way. This is a man of considerable stature, who could have come in here and basically been the next grand ayatollah, or been the second in charge, maybe the first in terms of many years to come, and people, some of the clerics already here did not want to see their own power base eroded. I don't think at this point anyone can say this is a result of an ideological difference. It's more a (UNINTELLIGIBLE) I don't want to lose the power I've collected over the years and you're a threat to it.
KAGAN: Understood. Jim Lacey from "Time" magazine, reporting to us from Najaf. We're getting word a prominent Muslim cleric has been assassinated, Majeed Saeed Al-Khoei.
Thank you so much, Jim Lacey. We move on to the north. Our Kevin Sites is just south of Kirkuk. He talked with some Iraqis who are very nervous there about what could happen next. Kevin is with us now. He is on the videophone.
Kevin, hello.
KEVIN SITES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, it was an interesting morning for us. Basically, we came into Kirkuk the same time as our other teams. We saw the celebration there. We saw all the people gather around the statue of Saddam Hussein, trying to topple it just like they did in Baghdad. We weren't needed in that area, so we drove out on the perimeters of Kirkuk, and we are now about 20 kilometers southwest of the city. We drove down the road towards Tikrit. That is probably the next stopping point for coalition forces. We thought we'd see how far the Iraqis had fled, and we ended up running into them personally.
We actually drove up to a checkpoint. We thought the Peshmerga were this far up. And when we actually got there, we saw the soldiers were wearing Iraqi uniforms, red berets, with an insignia signifying the paratroopers. They were very surprised we were there. They didn't speak to us harshly or even gesture with their weapons. But they did tell us to move back, to get out of there very quickly.
What we could see while we were there, while we were up close, was them loading up trucks. There were about seven or eight trucks, and there were also boats in a river that actually intersects the road toward Tikrit. They may have been preparing themselves for a pullback towards Tikrit. But I have to tell you, this is a very open road. and they would expose themselves to coalition forces. It's interesting that these soldiers were still in uniform, because we've seen many Iraqi soldiers so far today and most had shed their uniforms. We've seen dozens by the side of the road, their boots, their olive drab uniforms, and they've put on civilian clothes, and they are basically trying to blend into the countryside. In fact, we interviewed a couple soldiers that were heading home to Kirkuk. There were actually Iraqi soldiers.
And also very interesting, just about 20 minutes ago, we actually saw some Iraqi soldiers in the field. They were wearing civilian clothes. They actually had AK-47s and other weapons with them. And the Peshmerga came flying up the road and actually apprehended them. They took away their weapons, and the Iraqi soldiers held up their hands and actually moved through -- basically an agricultural field in this area. They had been crouching down there. But the Peshmerga came and took their weapons away, but surprisingly enough, they didn't take them captive. They said that these Iraqis were all Iraqis now, we're against Saddam Hussein, we're not against these men. And they took away their weapons, they put them on a truck, and they sent them on their way.
So it's an interesting thing that's happening here. There are still opposition lines formed. Just like we said, we're about two kilometers away from Iraqi soldiers here. Others are surrendering to Peshmerga around us. Yet when they surrender, they're not actually apprehended. They're let go. So it's an interesting development here.
Back to you.
KAGAN: Interesting would be the understatement of the day. Thank you so much, Kevin Sites, near Kirkuk. As you heard Kevin mention, a number of CNN crews arrived at that area, just about the same time. This is a significant city, the oil-rich -- the oil capital of that part of the world, and we also find our Ben Wedeman in Kirkuk, and he join us with the latest from there -- Ben.
BEN WEDEMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Daryn, we were the first ones here in Kirkuk. And what greeted us was a real scene of chaos. We saw young kids, who were basically sacking a Pepsi-Cola factory. The reason for that, it was owned by the hated son of Saddam Hussein, Uday. We also went up the road further. There was further looting. Really, scenes of chaos here as people were stealing food from a government store.
Now, here, we're in the main square of Kirkuk, where people are celebrating in a fairly peaceful manner the fall of Saddam Hussein, in fact, celebrating the fall of a statue of Saddam Hussein. They spent quite a long time trying to tear it down.
Now you can just barely see the stump of it essentially. But real scenes of chaos here earlier in the day. Now, we've learned that one of the Kurdish factions -- and all of these Kurdish factions are very well armed -- has appointed a governor for this city, but that governor has, as yet, not been able to make much impact here. We do know that he is backed up by U.S. special forces. In fact, the main office for the governor is just in front of me here. And there's several U.S. special forces, vehicle, outside of it. But they don't seem -- at least the U.S. special forces -- don't seem to be making any attempt to stop the looting, to stop some of the chaos that has broken out in the city -- Daryn. KAGAN: Well, and on that note, Ben, I'd like to pick up on a place we were talking I believe it was last hour, the hour before, and that is the significance of Kirkuk, of the oil there, of the fears of the Turks to the north and also the Kurds that control that city apparently right now.
WEDEMAN: Well, basically, with the economic importance of Kirkuk, the oil fields that are around it, it is the main oil- producing region in northern Iraq. In fact, it was here oil was first discovered in Iraq. There were some real fears that the Iraqi government would sabotage those oil wells in the event of war.
Now, one of those oil wells, I can see over there, it's blocked by buildings. It's still burning. But most of them are still intact. Now, the Turks were particularly concerned that the Kurds, who have now taken over this city, will use the oil revenue from these wells to create an independent Kurdish state. The Kurds, for their part, have made it clear they do want to remain part of Iraq. They consider themselves Iraqis, and, therefore, they have no such intention whatsoever.
But the Turks are very concerned that if such a move were made, that that would further inflame the situation in eastern Turkey, which has a very large Kurdish population. So a very confused and complicated situation on the ground that is quite flammable in this situation -- Daryn.
KAGAN: Well with that, I will send warnings to please be safe, you and our CNN crews in Kirkuk. Ben Wedeman, thank you so much for that report.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired April 10, 2003 - 11:03 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: Let's go to Baghdad. That's where our Walter Rodgers is now traveling on his own. Of course, if you've been watching our coverage, you know he has spent weeks embedded with the U.S. Army's 3-7th. He now is unembedded, as we like to say here in the region.
Walter, hello.
WALTER RODGERS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Daryn.
Imagine a city, living in a city a large metropolitan area like Baghdad, no electricity no telephones. That's what the 5 million to 6 million residents of Baghdad are now facing. There's been a total collapse of infrastructure. There is no starvation and there is ample water if you will, but most of the people cached food away. They have food, they have water, but they can't get through their own town, because U.S. Marine tanks are blocking major intersections, and they do feel intimidated by those tanks.
I've been off talking with Iraqis throughout most of the day, and they say, you know, even in the worst times of Saddam, he never ran his tanks into town. So they would really like to see some more freedom of movement. Of course, that's not possible, it's not feasible at this point.
One thing that frightens Iraqis most about the U.S. soldiers being here at this point, is basically the fact when night falls, and that's within the next hour or so, the shooting starts. The Fedayeen, the last of Saddam's soldiers, try to attack these U.S. positions, and then there are firefights, and then these city streets, which have become reasonably safe during the day become free fire zones, and that's of course the basic fear of most of the Iraqi citizens. These people have lives through a personal hell for the past few weeks -- Daryn.
KAGAN: Walter, I have a lot of questions for you, but I'm going to have to let you go right now, because we do have breaking news to the south of you, out of Najaf. We want to get the latest on this. Just into CNN, a prominent Iraqi Shiite leader has been killed in Najaf. Many considered the man, Abdul Majeed Al-Khoei, a likely candidate to help lead in a post-Saddam Iraq.
For more on that, we're going to go to Jim Lacey. He was with the 101st Airborne. He is a reporter for our sister publication "Time" magazine, and he is in Najaf right now.
Jim, what can you tell us about what happened there? JIM LACEY, "TIME" MAGAZINE: There's been a lot of speculation, a lot confusion and chaos trying to figure it out. The cleric himself was in exile in London for the last four years and came here with either the help of the United States or with their acknowledgement, and he was considered pro-Western. He was about to give a pro- Western, pro-U.S., pro-coalition speech to 35 Arab journalists, who the Army was flying in here early this morning.
Just before journalists arrived, there was the Army so-called an assassination attempt. There's been no confirmation from the U.S. military that he was actually killed. There is two reports, one that he was killed outright, and the second, that his attackers took him off and maybe publicly executed him some place else.
He was not under Army protection. He was staying at the Mosque of Ali, Tomb of Ali, one of the most holy shrines in the Muslim world. Why this attack does affect and maybe hurt U.S. interests, right now, the overwhelming belief and speculation is this is not an attack on American interests, this was another cleric who did not want to see his own power base eroded, and why it affects American interests, it's more interested in rivalry than it is an attack directly on America or America's interest.
KAGAN: Jim, while we still try to figure out exactly what happened to this man, if you can explain it -- and you started to do this -- but you can go a little bit more, the significance of this cleric in terms of post-Saddam Iraq.
LACEY: This cleric was, one, he was a very respected cleric. He is the son of the former grand ayatollah of this area. The current grand ayatollah was a student of his father, and he was probably the second or third in line. He's very well respected. When he was on street, people would bow. So many of the soldiers here (UNINTELLIGIBLE), they would get weak in the knees as he walked by, as a teenage reaction to a movie star or something, along those lines. That might be simplifying it.
But he's greatly respected, and he was pro-Western. He's been living in the West for a long time, and he was, you know, expecting to make a very pro-American and a very pro-coalition speech, and these people are already behind us, but this would have solidified the religious dimension, because a lot of the clerics are still sitting on the sidelines and waiting to see which way the wind falls for a number of reason. But he was a highly respected cleric, he was very pro- Western. He supported church and state as much as any cleric as possible in the Muslim world, and now he's dead.
So it's definitely going to have a negative impact on what America is trying to do, what the U.S. and coalition is trying to do here. But I think it's, as I said it's probably not -- whoever attacked him today probably did not have that in mind when they did it. It seems more of an internal power struggle at this time, and that's coming from a lot of sources.
KAGAN: Jim, I realize the situation in Najaf right now is a little iffy in terms of security, so I don't know if you've been able to do this type of reporting. But would an assassination attempt like this represent a split in the Shiite community in Najaf, that some want to see the community go in a certain direction and some want to see it go pro-Western?
LACEY: I'm going way outside of my lane here, but no one is saying this is a split in the community. I think the religious community is all going one way. This is a man of considerable stature, who could have come in here and basically been the next grand ayatollah, or been the second in charge, maybe the first in terms of many years to come, and people, some of the clerics already here did not want to see their own power base eroded. I don't think at this point anyone can say this is a result of an ideological difference. It's more a (UNINTELLIGIBLE) I don't want to lose the power I've collected over the years and you're a threat to it.
KAGAN: Understood. Jim Lacey from "Time" magazine, reporting to us from Najaf. We're getting word a prominent Muslim cleric has been assassinated, Majeed Saeed Al-Khoei.
Thank you so much, Jim Lacey. We move on to the north. Our Kevin Sites is just south of Kirkuk. He talked with some Iraqis who are very nervous there about what could happen next. Kevin is with us now. He is on the videophone.
Kevin, hello.
KEVIN SITES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, it was an interesting morning for us. Basically, we came into Kirkuk the same time as our other teams. We saw the celebration there. We saw all the people gather around the statue of Saddam Hussein, trying to topple it just like they did in Baghdad. We weren't needed in that area, so we drove out on the perimeters of Kirkuk, and we are now about 20 kilometers southwest of the city. We drove down the road towards Tikrit. That is probably the next stopping point for coalition forces. We thought we'd see how far the Iraqis had fled, and we ended up running into them personally.
We actually drove up to a checkpoint. We thought the Peshmerga were this far up. And when we actually got there, we saw the soldiers were wearing Iraqi uniforms, red berets, with an insignia signifying the paratroopers. They were very surprised we were there. They didn't speak to us harshly or even gesture with their weapons. But they did tell us to move back, to get out of there very quickly.
What we could see while we were there, while we were up close, was them loading up trucks. There were about seven or eight trucks, and there were also boats in a river that actually intersects the road toward Tikrit. They may have been preparing themselves for a pullback towards Tikrit. But I have to tell you, this is a very open road. and they would expose themselves to coalition forces. It's interesting that these soldiers were still in uniform, because we've seen many Iraqi soldiers so far today and most had shed their uniforms. We've seen dozens by the side of the road, their boots, their olive drab uniforms, and they've put on civilian clothes, and they are basically trying to blend into the countryside. In fact, we interviewed a couple soldiers that were heading home to Kirkuk. There were actually Iraqi soldiers.
And also very interesting, just about 20 minutes ago, we actually saw some Iraqi soldiers in the field. They were wearing civilian clothes. They actually had AK-47s and other weapons with them. And the Peshmerga came flying up the road and actually apprehended them. They took away their weapons, and the Iraqi soldiers held up their hands and actually moved through -- basically an agricultural field in this area. They had been crouching down there. But the Peshmerga came and took their weapons away, but surprisingly enough, they didn't take them captive. They said that these Iraqis were all Iraqis now, we're against Saddam Hussein, we're not against these men. And they took away their weapons, they put them on a truck, and they sent them on their way.
So it's an interesting thing that's happening here. There are still opposition lines formed. Just like we said, we're about two kilometers away from Iraqi soldiers here. Others are surrendering to Peshmerga around us. Yet when they surrender, they're not actually apprehended. They're let go. So it's an interesting development here.
Back to you.
KAGAN: Interesting would be the understatement of the day. Thank you so much, Kevin Sites, near Kirkuk. As you heard Kevin mention, a number of CNN crews arrived at that area, just about the same time. This is a significant city, the oil-rich -- the oil capital of that part of the world, and we also find our Ben Wedeman in Kirkuk, and he join us with the latest from there -- Ben.
BEN WEDEMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Daryn, we were the first ones here in Kirkuk. And what greeted us was a real scene of chaos. We saw young kids, who were basically sacking a Pepsi-Cola factory. The reason for that, it was owned by the hated son of Saddam Hussein, Uday. We also went up the road further. There was further looting. Really, scenes of chaos here as people were stealing food from a government store.
Now, here, we're in the main square of Kirkuk, where people are celebrating in a fairly peaceful manner the fall of Saddam Hussein, in fact, celebrating the fall of a statue of Saddam Hussein. They spent quite a long time trying to tear it down.
Now you can just barely see the stump of it essentially. But real scenes of chaos here earlier in the day. Now, we've learned that one of the Kurdish factions -- and all of these Kurdish factions are very well armed -- has appointed a governor for this city, but that governor has, as yet, not been able to make much impact here. We do know that he is backed up by U.S. special forces. In fact, the main office for the governor is just in front of me here. And there's several U.S. special forces, vehicle, outside of it. But they don't seem -- at least the U.S. special forces -- don't seem to be making any attempt to stop the looting, to stop some of the chaos that has broken out in the city -- Daryn. KAGAN: Well, and on that note, Ben, I'd like to pick up on a place we were talking I believe it was last hour, the hour before, and that is the significance of Kirkuk, of the oil there, of the fears of the Turks to the north and also the Kurds that control that city apparently right now.
WEDEMAN: Well, basically, with the economic importance of Kirkuk, the oil fields that are around it, it is the main oil- producing region in northern Iraq. In fact, it was here oil was first discovered in Iraq. There were some real fears that the Iraqi government would sabotage those oil wells in the event of war.
Now, one of those oil wells, I can see over there, it's blocked by buildings. It's still burning. But most of them are still intact. Now, the Turks were particularly concerned that the Kurds, who have now taken over this city, will use the oil revenue from these wells to create an independent Kurdish state. The Kurds, for their part, have made it clear they do want to remain part of Iraq. They consider themselves Iraqis, and, therefore, they have no such intention whatsoever.
But the Turks are very concerned that if such a move were made, that that would further inflame the situation in eastern Turkey, which has a very large Kurdish population. So a very confused and complicated situation on the ground that is quite flammable in this situation -- Daryn.
KAGAN: Well with that, I will send warnings to please be safe, you and our CNN crews in Kirkuk. Ben Wedeman, thank you so much for that report.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
