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American Morning
Discussion with Con Coughlin
Aired April 10, 2003 - 09:43 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: Will it be any easier to find Saddam in a newly liberated Iraq?
Con Coughlin is the author, "Saddam, King of Terror." He also is the executive editor of "The London Daily Telegraph." Con joins us now from London.
Good to see you again, welcome.
CON COUGHLIN, AUTHOR,, "SADDAM, KING OF TERROR": Good morning, Paula.
ZAHN: Con, I know you have probably seen the same reports we have, and they are all over the place this morning, some reports putting Saddam in northeast of Baghdad, others saying he's in his hometown of Tikrit. A third report suggesting he's hanging out in a mosque outside of Tikrit.
What do your sources tell you?
COUGHLIN: Well, what I hear is that he's moving back towards Tikrit. But of course, anybody who knows precisely where Saddam is not going to tell us, and certainly if they knew precisely where Saddam is, we'd see a few more 2,000-pound bunker buster bombs being dropped. So I think we're all in the world of supposition at the moment. But what I'm picking up is that people expect him to move to Tikrit. That's where he's got the last bastion of loyal supporters that can really look after him, and clearly people in Baghdad didn't want to fight and die for Saddam anymore.
ZAHN: And if he has done that, what would he be capable of pulling off, given what we know about the erosion of his command and control?
COUGHLIN: Well, this is -- we are entering the unknown with Saddam, frankly, Paula. Saddam's never been in this position before. The last time he was on the run, that I can remember, was in the '60s, when he was involved in various failed assassination attempts against the then president. What he did then was he ran back to Tikrit, and he away in Tikrit, and then he went to Syria.
So whether he's going to follow that kind of path this time round, we will see. But I expect him to be in Tikrit.
I don't think -- I mean it's obvious that the regime is over. He is finished. But Saddam is a survivor. I mean, he is not going to give himself up. I don't think he's even going to put himself in a position where he has to take his own life. Saddam is a survivor. He will try and lay low, and as he's done throughout this conflict actually, he will try and lay low and survive it. At some point, the coalition forces will pack up their tanks and go home. And after that, Saddam will hope to make a comeback.
ZAHN: You have spent most of your adult life studying this man, and you've talked a lot about his ability to survive. You've also described him as a supreme megalomaniac who is very concerned about his legacy.
Yesterday, one would think had to be extremely humiliating to him as we saw the group of Iraqi civilians work for hours to bring down this enormous statue that had just been erected on his 65th birthday last April.
COUGHLIN: Yes. Well, I think all these things are very hurtful to Saddam. But let's not forget, Paula, that Saddam is a realist, and I recall the whole period when the Ceausescu (ph) regime was overthrown in Romania and I write about this in the book. Saddam was really struck by how quickly the Rumanians turned on the Ceausescus (ph), and they had a pretty vicious dictatorship there, and Saddam actually made a film of what happened to the Ceausescus (ph) in Romania in 1989 and showed it to the Revolutionary Command Council in Baghdad, and said, look guys, unless we're really tough, this is what will happen to us.
So I don't think Saddam was under any illusions about what Iraqis really thought about him, which of course, is why he had this ferocious security apparatus, this brutal secret police with its interrogation centers to keep him in power.
So Saddam will know, Saddam will not be surprised to see Baghdad is pulling down his statue. But of course, in Tikrit, it's a different matter. He is genuinely popular in Tikrit. He's also spent a lot of money on Tikrit over the years. And he will expect the Tikritis to repay the loyalty he showed to them during the 25 years that he was in power.
ZAHN: Well, we always appreciate your trying to shed light on one of the greatest mysteries of this war. Con Coughlin, as always, good to see you. Thanks for dropping by.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired April 10, 2003 - 09:43 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: Will it be any easier to find Saddam in a newly liberated Iraq?
Con Coughlin is the author, "Saddam, King of Terror." He also is the executive editor of "The London Daily Telegraph." Con joins us now from London.
Good to see you again, welcome.
CON COUGHLIN, AUTHOR,, "SADDAM, KING OF TERROR": Good morning, Paula.
ZAHN: Con, I know you have probably seen the same reports we have, and they are all over the place this morning, some reports putting Saddam in northeast of Baghdad, others saying he's in his hometown of Tikrit. A third report suggesting he's hanging out in a mosque outside of Tikrit.
What do your sources tell you?
COUGHLIN: Well, what I hear is that he's moving back towards Tikrit. But of course, anybody who knows precisely where Saddam is not going to tell us, and certainly if they knew precisely where Saddam is, we'd see a few more 2,000-pound bunker buster bombs being dropped. So I think we're all in the world of supposition at the moment. But what I'm picking up is that people expect him to move to Tikrit. That's where he's got the last bastion of loyal supporters that can really look after him, and clearly people in Baghdad didn't want to fight and die for Saddam anymore.
ZAHN: And if he has done that, what would he be capable of pulling off, given what we know about the erosion of his command and control?
COUGHLIN: Well, this is -- we are entering the unknown with Saddam, frankly, Paula. Saddam's never been in this position before. The last time he was on the run, that I can remember, was in the '60s, when he was involved in various failed assassination attempts against the then president. What he did then was he ran back to Tikrit, and he away in Tikrit, and then he went to Syria.
So whether he's going to follow that kind of path this time round, we will see. But I expect him to be in Tikrit.
I don't think -- I mean it's obvious that the regime is over. He is finished. But Saddam is a survivor. I mean, he is not going to give himself up. I don't think he's even going to put himself in a position where he has to take his own life. Saddam is a survivor. He will try and lay low, and as he's done throughout this conflict actually, he will try and lay low and survive it. At some point, the coalition forces will pack up their tanks and go home. And after that, Saddam will hope to make a comeback.
ZAHN: You have spent most of your adult life studying this man, and you've talked a lot about his ability to survive. You've also described him as a supreme megalomaniac who is very concerned about his legacy.
Yesterday, one would think had to be extremely humiliating to him as we saw the group of Iraqi civilians work for hours to bring down this enormous statue that had just been erected on his 65th birthday last April.
COUGHLIN: Yes. Well, I think all these things are very hurtful to Saddam. But let's not forget, Paula, that Saddam is a realist, and I recall the whole period when the Ceausescu (ph) regime was overthrown in Romania and I write about this in the book. Saddam was really struck by how quickly the Rumanians turned on the Ceausescus (ph), and they had a pretty vicious dictatorship there, and Saddam actually made a film of what happened to the Ceausescus (ph) in Romania in 1989 and showed it to the Revolutionary Command Council in Baghdad, and said, look guys, unless we're really tough, this is what will happen to us.
So I don't think Saddam was under any illusions about what Iraqis really thought about him, which of course, is why he had this ferocious security apparatus, this brutal secret police with its interrogation centers to keep him in power.
So Saddam will know, Saddam will not be surprised to see Baghdad is pulling down his statue. But of course, in Tikrit, it's a different matter. He is genuinely popular in Tikrit. He's also spent a lot of money on Tikrit over the years. And he will expect the Tikritis to repay the loyalty he showed to them during the 25 years that he was in power.
ZAHN: Well, we always appreciate your trying to shed light on one of the greatest mysteries of this war. Con Coughlin, as always, good to see you. Thanks for dropping by.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
