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CNN LOU DOBBS MONEYLINE
Baghdad Calm But War is Not Over; Iraqi Forces in Mosul Invited to Turn in Their Weapons
Aired April 10, 2003 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(NEWSBREAK)
LOU DOBBS, HOST: Good evening. Coalition forces made sweeping gains in northern Iraq today as U.S. troops fought remnants of Saddam Hussein's forces in Baghdad. The northern city of Kirkuk has fallen to the coalition. It is now under the control of U.S. Special Forces, a battalion of the 173rd Airborne Brigade and Kurdish fighters. Ben Wedeman reports.
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BEN WEDEMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (VOICE OVER): The people of Kirkuk greet a new era by bidding a pointed farewell to the old. "God preserve Iraq and Saddam", the sign says. Decades of repressed anger and hatred suddenly unleashed.
Also unleashed, an almost uncontrollable urge shared by all ages to sack, loot, and destroy everything associated with the dying regime, like this soft drink factory, the property, we were told, of Uday Saddam Hussein, the hated son of Saddam. The theme of this day, smash and steal.
There was no class at this school outside Kirkuk. In fact, there weren't really any classrooms either. Students ransacked it with utter contempt for the man whose face adorned every school book in Iraq. Anything with Saddam we destroy, they tell me. At a government store, a fire sale of sorts. All you can haul away and then some for free. A modest form of revenge for a lifetime of fear and oppression.
Throughout the day, hundreds of triumphant Kurdish fighters poured into the city. Backed by a small number of American troops, the Kurds drove Iraqi forces out of Kirkuk without much of a fight. There appeared to be no secret to their victory.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just hammered them with bombs day and night. So, just pretty much had a pretty positive effect, or I guess negative effect on the Iraqis, so...
WEDEMAN: In the town's main square, Saddam's likeness no longer the object of adulation and respect, but rather of whatever you could throw at it. Holes punched in a figure the day before treated as semi-divine. Here no need for American help to tear down Saddam. Iraqi petrol torched this portrait of the president. Amidst the destruction and chaos, a less violent celebration, a tune of liberation and release, a dance of deliverance. WEDEMAN (ON CAMERA): For years, the people of Kirkuk had to sing and dance for Saddam Hussein. Now, they can finally sing and dance in freedom. Ben Wedeman, CNN, Kirkuk, northern Iraq.
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DOBBS: The next target for coalition forces is likely to be Saddam Hussein's hometown of Tikrit. It's believed to be the nerve center of the remaining Iraqi security services and Saddam Hussein's final possession of command and control facilities. Senior Pentagon Correspondent Jamie McIntyre has the report.
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JAMIE MCINTYRE, SENIOR PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (VOICE OVER): A day after the Pentagon warned the toppling of a statue of Saddam Hussein did not mean the war was over, Baghdad can seem deceptively calm. Birds chirping in one spot while bullets fly a few blocks away. As Baghdad remains unsettled, U.S. military planners are focusing on Saddam Hussein's hometown of Tikrit, 90 miles to the north which could be his Ba'ath party's last stand.
GENERAL DAN CHRISTMAN, U.S. ARMY (RET.): Thanks to the investments that Saddam has made in that city have made Saddam himself both popular and, in many respects, the boy of Tikrit. The population there very, very loyal to him.
MCINTYRE: The Pentagon says the remnants of a Republican Guard division, as well as the last significant formations of regular Iraqi forces, are in the north and could fight to the death.
MAJOR GENERAL STAN MCCHRYSTAL, JOINT STAFF DEPUTY DIRECTOR: But I think we are prepared to be very, very wary of what they may have and prepared for a big fight.
MCINTYRE: Once Baghdad is secure, the U.S. can squeeze Tikrit from all sides, using troops in the north from the 173rd Airborne Brigade backed by armor flown in just this week and from the south, commanders can call on U.S. troops now in Baghdad or fresh reinforcements from Kuwait.
MCCHRYSTAL: The Fourth Infantry Division is largely flown into Kuwait now. In very short order, they will be ready to start flowing north. So, it gives us even more options either to use the forces in the vicinity of Baghdad, to use forces from the north, or some combination, which is, in the end, probably what will happen.
MCINTYRE: As it did before taking Baghdad, the U.S. has been using air strikes to pave the way. This photograph shows a strike against a Republican Guard barracks near Tikrit, and this sprawling complex was a VIP guest house the U.S. says was being used for command and control.
CHRISTMAN: So, a very, very important battle unfolding, the final center of gravity, the final phase of this campaign critical to the successful execution of this entire campaign.
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MCINTYRE (ON CAMERA): The Pentagon says The U.S. has been aggressively targeting Iraqi forces in the north, both with air power and Special Operations Forces on the ground. It believes, according to its latest assessment, that it has killed many of those fighters or that many of them have simply abandoned the battlefield -- Lou.
DOBBS: Jamie, we've had reports throughout the day that the governor general of Mosul, the commander of the Iraqi Army's Fifth Corps, could be on the verge of surrender. What's the latest you have on that?
MCINTYRE: Well, officials here aren't confirming that report, but they are saying that they've been putting a lot of pressure on Mosul, that they were expecting that there might be a similar situation to what they faced in Kirkuk.
Once again in the north, they had the help of a lot of Kurdish fighters and Special Operations Forces. It may well be that the officials in that town pretty much see that their fate is sealed and may be looking for a way out.
If that surrender happens, we're told, they are expecting it would happen in the next 24 hours -- Lou.
DOBBS: Jamie, thank you very much. Senior Pentagon Correspondent, Jamie McIntyre. Well, as Jamie reported, Iraqi forces in Kirkuk seem to have disappeared as the Kurdish and Army forces moved in. But also, they're disappearing in eastern parts of northern Iraq. Residents of Khanaqin near the Iranian border today rejoiced in that town's liberation.
Brent Sadler has the report.
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BRENT SADLER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (VOICE OVER): American Special Forces speed into newly liberated towns of northern Iraq, catching sight along the way of Iraqi friends, not foes, on a road to freedom.
This is the Kurdish town of Khanaqin, some 80 miles north of Baghdad, overrun by Iraqi Kurdish Peshmerga fighters under the command of a new face in town, Kilal Alibani (ph), one of the top Kurdish leaders Khanaqin was the first of the big northern towns to fall, thanks, they say here, to President George W. Bush.
Remnants of the doomed regime fled the previous night. No one knows where they escaped to, and for now at least, they don't seem to care.
SADLER (ON CAMERA): Scenes of jubilation are being repeated in towns and villages throughout northern Iraq. Once the capital Baghdad fell, the gravitational pull was simply too great. Saddam Hussein's power in the north crushed, his countless images machine gunned into oblivion.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We liberated today by the power of the American soldier and the Peshmerga, the self-sacrificers to liberate Khanaqin.
SADLER (OFF CAMERA): It's a day to remember and record with a parade of the conventional and the unconventional on an historic day. For decades, they lived under the brutal whims of a tyrant. It will take time to adjust.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now we can't believe it. Now I am -- I am dreaming.
SADLER: But dreams can turn to nightmares if law and order is not reestablished soon. A wooden coffin holds the body of an Iraqi Arab killed, it's claimed here, in a revenge attack by Iraqi Kurds. Old rivalries die hard in a country that's reeling from the tremors of change and the uncertainty that brings, even on this much celebrated day.
Brent Sadler, CNN, Khanaqin, northern Iraq.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Joining me now, CNN Military Analyst General David Grange. Good to have you with us.
BRIGADIER GENERAL DAVID GRANGE, U.S. ARMY (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Good to be here.
DOBBS: There seems to be some reason for optimism tonight in the coalition's northern advance. Kirkuk has fallen. There are apparently talks underway right now for the surrender of the Iraqi forces in Mosul. What is your best judgment about what is happening to the Iraqi military here?
GRANGE: Well, it appears to be disintegrating. I mean, there's going to be pockets of resistance that are going to remain, some people that will have to be killed, outright killed. But it looks like they're falling apart. Up in Mosul, I think they're going to surrender.
The key here is not only the military might, but once the civilians in these towns start going to the other side, the swell of anti-Saddam -- and the Iraqi forces see that, the military sees that, it's so powerful and threatening, just the actions of the people themselves, that they -- it forces them almost to capitulate. It's not the air power that the Special Forces can bring or the advancing Kurd forces, it's just the people themselves, and that, I think, is a powerful aspect, and now we're starting to see it happen all over Iraq.
DOBBS: We've got the 173rd up there, special operations forces, special force along with the Peshmerga. But we also have more than 300 cities and towns, villages that have been liberated. That is a tall order for any military, but especially this small a force up there. How can they handle it?
GRANGE: Well, that's right. It's a lot of territory, a lot of villages up there. You have a few Special Forces Operatives with Peshmerga fighters going to these different villages, but you know, they have the power of that handset, Lou, and that radio, and everyone knows that just with that voice command, they can bring these lightning bolts out of the sky, just anytime of the day, 24 hours a day, and that has a big effect on the combat effectiveness of any force, even if they're indigenous, almost guerrilla bands.
So, that's the power that we're seeing and the influence on all these people surrendering to these advancing small bands of forces.
DOBBS: The Peshmerga, obviously, very impressed with what that little radio can do in the hands of Special Forces in particular. Tikrit could be the last principal strong hold for Saddam Hussein's regime. What do you expect there?
GRANGE: Lou, I expect there will be some fighting. There may not be the resistance that the worst case planning would call for, and I believe that the coalition forces will plan for worst case fighting. But any armored vehicle...
DOBBS: General, may I -- I hate to do this, but may I interrupt you? Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld has just stepped before the cameras and microphones on Capitol Hill, and we'll listen in.
(INTERRUPTED BY LIVE EVENT)
DOBBS: Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld meeting with reporters as he exits Capitol Hill having spent some time with a bipartisan group of House leaders. Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld making some news in those brief comments saying that just within recent hours in Mosul in northern Iraq, the Iraqi forces have been given the opportunity to turn in their weapons and that U.S. and Peshmerga forces, Kurdish forces, are moving into Mosul. Surrender is expected in the Mosul within the next 24 hours.
Also, the Secretary of Defense going to some pains to point out that reconstruction is not necessarily a gargantuan task because the coalition forces have taken extraordinary care not to destroy the infrastructure of Iraq. He pointed out that bridges had not been blown, oil wells had not been destroyed, that power plants had not been hit in air strikes by the U.S. and British aircraft, and that electricity remains on throughout most of Iraq. Dams were not bombed, and the air campaign, as he pointed out, very targeted.
Also adding that the 173rd is -- the 173rd Army is in that area moving into Kirkuk, as well, from the north. I want to turn now to our next guest, Senator John McCain. As you know, he is not only a distinguished senator, a decorated former aviator in the Navy, and he spent five years as a prisoner of war in North Vietnam, and it is a great pleasure, Senator McCain, to welcome you to the broadcast.
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: Thank you, Lou. I enjoyed watching Secretary Rumsfeld's press conference.
DOBBS: Your reaction tock what he had to say about, first, the high level of precision targeting by a coalition force?
MCCAIN: Well, I agree with that. I don't think there's any doubt that when you are attacking a city and they're able to keep their electricity on, as they were in Baghdad until a regime turned it off, that that's indication -- look, one of the remarkable changes, Lou, from 1991 was that about 10 percent of the bombs dropped in the Persian Gulf War were precision weapons, and now about 90 percent this time were.
It's a phenomenal technological capability that they have, and they've used it well.
DOBBS: As the Secretary of Defense pointed out, considerable fighting remains, our troops, our young men and women remain in harm's way. Is it your judgment that we are near the end of this conflict?
MCCAIN: Oh, I'm sure that's true. But, you know, the suicide bombers today that killed some of our marines should give us pause. I'm worried about some of the foreigners that are in Iraq also, Lou, the Syrians, people from other countries, Palestinians, and others who are truly fanatical, as well as the remnants of the Fedayeen.
The north I think we're getting under control, but it would be considerably different if we had come down through Turkey, as you know. There's still not that many troops in the north.
We still have looting, but I think a lot of that is a natural happenstance when people emerge from the heel of a brutal dictator, but I think it's at the end, but that doesn't mean we aren't going to suffer more casualties, and now one of the tough challenges begins and that's, of course, the reconstruction politically as well as materially.
DOBBS: As you point out, a number of nationalities represented, not in large numbers. We're told probably fewer than several thousand in the Fedayeen.
But we have not seen the uprising, Senator, on the Arab street throughout the region that many experts suggested we would upon attacking Saddam Hussein's forces in Iraq. What do you think of that?
MCCAIN: Well, I think what we saw was a -- sort of a World War II defense. As you know, they decorated two Russian generals for their help of Saddam Hussein. If I were them, I'd be not too proud of them.
But look, what they tried to do was to try our forces, hold them up in the south, especially in Basra and some of the other cities, try to slow us down. Sort of the Russian versus the Germans in World war II. And then, of course, try to is suck us into the cities and move their heavy equipment into Baghdad and grind out the conflict while public opinion would rise against the United States and with the consequences in all of the Arab world. We just outflanked them and outsped them to the point where we were always so far ahead of them, they were unable to carry out that kind of World War II strategy. What you saw was a World War II Army strategy versus the Twenty-First Century technology, and clearly Twenty-First Century technology won.
So, once the Fedayeen was broken and the Ba'athists were broken, that's when you saw the welcoming signs.
DOBBS: You raised the other issue, and that is we know that there has been considerable traffic between Iraq and Syria. Both directions. There are some now who are growing concerned about the position, the political position of Syria. Are you amongst those?
MCCAIN: Well, you know, to be a little blunt, it's not good news when Syria is sending -- allowing or sending its citizens in to fight and try to kill Americans. But having said that, I don't see any contemplation of a military action against Syria. Syria is the last of the Ba'athist countries now. And I hope that will Bashar recognizes that he's got some work to do because what they've done during this conflict has not helped, to say the least. And so, I think we'll have a troubled relationship, but I don't think we're contemplating military action against Syria, and frankly, I wouldn't countenance it.
Could I just say one thing about post-Saddam Iraq? I was glad to see the Secretary mention that these differences have been magnified. Look, our job is to get an Iraqi government, governed by Iraqis and for Iraqis, in place as quickly as possible and the humanitarian aid brought in as quickly as possible. And the U.N. plays a good, vital role there. But let's have an Iraqi government by the Iraqi people
MCCAIN: He's got some work to do, because what they've done during this conflict has not helped, to say the least.
And so I think we'll have a troubled relationship, but I don't think we're contemplating military action against Syria, and I don't -- frankly, I wouldn't countenance it.
Could I just say one word about post-Saddam Iraq? I was glad to see...
DOBBS: Please.
MCCAIN: ... the secretary mention that these differences have been magnified. Look, our job is to get, you know, an Iraqi government, governed by Iraqis and for Iraqis, in place as quickly as possible, and the humanitarian aid brought in as quickly as possible. And the U.N. plays a good, vital role there.
But let's have an Iraqi government by the Iraqi people, flawed at first, but start the institutions of democracy. That's what will send a message to the Arab street, and maybe make some of those dictators all over the Middle East a little uneasy.
DOBBS: A plan and a president who now, it appears. is only a matter of days away from having the ability to make that decision straightaway.
Senator John McCain, always good to talk with you. Thank you very much.
MCCAIN: Thank you, Lou.
DOBBS: Coming up next here, scenes of jubilation. Yesterday, firefights, suicide bombings today in some parts of Iraq. ITN reporter John Irvine will have a special report on the city of Baghdad.
And President Bush launches a media war in Iraq. Senior White House correspondent John King will have that report for us.
Bombs and looters overcome another symbol of excess that marked the regime of Saddam Hussein. That story and more just ahead. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HEIDI COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. I'm Heidi Collins at the CNN Center in Atlanta.
The symbols of oppression continue to fall in Iraq. Kurdish fighters toppled a statue of Saddam Hussein in Kirkuk today. The Kurds overtook the city with the help of U.S. special forces. A large number of Iraqi soldiers were seen fleeing the city without their uniforms.
A suicide bomber seriously injured four Marines in Baghdad today. The attacker blew himself up as he approached the Marines at a checkpoint. They were not far from the Palestine Hotel in central Baghdad.
The SARS virus continues to spread. Two children at a Florida school are now sick from the mystery illness. Overseas, another five people have died in China and Hong Kong. That brings the worldwide death toll to 111.
Cuba has sentenced 75 dissidents to long prison terms in an unprecedented political crackdown. Most were accused of treason for working with the United States to destabilize the Cuban government. Secretary of State Colin Powell accused Cuba of engaging in "despicable repression."
The supersonic Concorde may soon fly into the history books. Air France will discontinue operating the plane in May, and British Airways will end flights in October, because it's too expensive. But Richard Branson may step in and save the Concorde. Branson, the man behind Virgin Airways, has asked British Airways if he can take a look at their books.
Stocks ended the day higher on Wall Street. The Dow Jones industrial average added 23 points, the Nasdaq picked up 8. And oil prices plunged nearly $1.40 to $27.46 a barrel. That is the biggest one-day decline since the beginning of the war against Iraq.
Now more coverage of war in Iraq and Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: Thank you, Heidi.
President Bush, Prime Minister Blair today told the Iraqi people that Saddam Hussein's regime is being removed from power. Their statements were broadcast with Arabic subtitles on a new television service produced by the U.S. and British governments.
Senior White House correspondent John King with the story.
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JOHN KING, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It is called Commando Solo, an airborne radio and TV studio, a weapon of psychological warfare, now part of the early efforts to win the peace.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We will help you build a peaceful and representative government that protects the rights of all citizens, and then, our military forces will leave. Iraq will go forward as a unified, independent, and sovereign nation that has regained a respected place in the world.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: The new videotaped statements from President Bush and his closest ally are an effort to calm worries that dictatorship will be replaced by indefinite military occupation, and to answer any Iraqis who might doubt a new day is at hand.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TONY BLAIR, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: I know, however, that some of you feared a repeat of 1991, when you thought Saddam's rule was being ended, but he stayed, and you suffered. That will not happen this time. This regime will be gone, and ended.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: The immediate goals of the broadcasts are to provide information about humanitarian aid and other government services, seek help searching for weapons of mass destruction, reassure Iraqis the Saddam Hussein regime is gone from power, and to promise the United States and Great Britain will quickly transfer power to a new Iraqi administration.
Many Iraqi TV facilities were destroyed in the bombing, and many Iraqis still lack power, but the Pentagon is working to get more and more information -- critics say propaganda -- to the Iraqi people.
MAJ. GEN. GENE RENUART, U.S. AIR FORCE: We're working very aggressively to find the context within the city and in the country who would like to begin an Iraqi broadcast network, if you will.
KING: The main target audience is the Iraqi people.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(on camera): But the White House hopes these new broadcasts and this new Iraqi TV network now in the works will prove a counterweight of sorts to the many Arab broadcasters who are highly critical of this war and suggest its true goal is U.S. control of Iraq's oil wealth, Lou.
DOBBS: John, as I understand it, there will also be a role there for independent news organizations as well.
KING: In time, the United States hopes, again, just as a new government, the United States hopes, emerges naturally from the Iraqi people, the administration hopes a new media will emerge as part of that system. But that is something that is -- would be new to the Iraqi culture, of course, especially after decades of Saddam Hussein and totalitarianism.
So it will take some time. The United States and London, Great Britain, are working together on starting something up, giving seed to a new network, and they'll see what happens from there. But they are hoping there is a new network and then a -- just a flood of interest in a new Iraq.
DOBBS: John King, thank you very much. John King, our senior White House correspondent.
Iraqi gunmen are still active in parts of Baghdad, especially at night. U.S. forces are taking no chances. But during the day, crowds of Iraqis continue to loot some government buildings.
John Irvine of ITN with the report.
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JOHN IRVINE, ITV NEWS (voice-over): Getting acquainted. Very deliberately, the U.S. Marines are trying to strike up a rapport with the people who are now their responsibility.
But there are still problems bringing control to Baghdad, particularly at nighttime. In the pitch black of a city without power, these soldiers manning a roadblock became nervous.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE), stop, back up!
IRVINE: When a car fails to stop, it's the cue for a violent gun battle. Bullets are sprayed everywhere.
In parts of Baghdad that the Americans haven't yet reached, there has been looting. This man took the horse from a stable at the home of Uday Hussein, Saddam's eldest son. We found the house a large, gaudy structure, a place that just a few days ago people don't even look at for fear of their lives.
This indeed was one of Uday's homes. Here the ruling family could look out over the Tigris.
People have wasted no time clearing the house and wrecking what couldn't be easily taken.
(on camera): They haven't quite worked out just how to reach this chandelier yet, but other than that, they have stripped this place bare in less than 24 hours. Call it plunder, if you will, or perhaps payback.
(voice-over): These Iraqis were rifling a home of a senior member of the Makah Barat (ph), Saddam's dreaded secret police. It also seemed to be some kind of monitoring station. There was sophisticated equipment here.
In the basement, we found burning archives and evidence of electronic surveillance. This had been a nerve center for spying, a place from where the bully boys kept tabs to keep control.
(on camera): We're now in the bowels of a secret police monitoring station. Look at all this gadgetry. Quite sinister, really, part of the apparatus of Big Brother.
(voice-over): These people are stealing from a shopping center. It has become widespread, but it's not being done with total impunity. These thieves are trying to flee the German embassy, having been shot at by a guard.
John Irvine, ITV News, Baghdad.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: In southern Iraq, another symbol of Saddam Hussein's regime is in ruins tonight, Saddam Hussein's private yacht. And quite a yacht it is, or was. It was hit by coalition bombs and missiles, and then burned and looted by Iraqis. The boat was one of the world's most luxurious yachts when it was launched some 20 years ago. Now the scorched hulk floats aimlessly in the Shaat al-Arab (ph) waterway next to Basra's dockyards.
Coming up next here, people in Baghdad celebrate the fall of a leader whose fate is unknown tonight. We'll be talking with an expert on Saddam Hussein, author Andrew Cockburn, about whether Saddam Hussein is dead or alive, and where in the world is he?
Also, the long journey of the Marine who covered the statue of Saddam Hussein with an American flag. Bill Tucker will have a special report on the life of Marine Corporal Edward Chin.
And actress Jane Fonda is now questioning freedom of the United States. And she has a few thoughts about ignorance. So do we. Stay with us.
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DOBBS: Almost two-thirds of Americans believe the war is going very well, according to a new Pew Research Center survey. However, 69 percent say it's too early to say this war has been won. Half of Americans surveyed say that for the coalition to declare victory, Saddam Hussein must be killed or captured, 42 percent say it's enough to have removed him from power.
Joining me now for more on the fate of Saddam Hussein is author Andrew Cockburn, the co-author of "Out of the Ashes: The Resurrection of Saddam Hussein." Mr. Cockburn joins us tonight from our studios in Washington, D.C.
Good to have you with us.
ANDREW COCKBURN, CO-AUTHOR, "OUT OF THE ASHES": Good to be with you.
DOBBS: Your best guess, dead or alive?
COCKBURN: I'm guessing alive. I mean, I -- obviously, I could be wrong, but I think he -- I see no evidence that he's dead, put it that way. I mean, we might think he's dead because of those enormous holes, you know, in the Mansour district of Baghdad, where we thought we'd bombed him the other night. The trouble is, we thought we'd done that before, both in the last war and this, and the intelligence has usually turned out to be wrong, unfortunately. So...
DOBBS: Who has the best intelligence on this, the British or the American CIA in that region?
COCKBURN: The British always like to sort of indicate, because of their long experience, you know, they like to be a bit sort of superior about this and suggest really, they have an edge in this craft. It's impossible to say. I think the -- I mean, the U.S. can sometimes have a very good source, or the British will have a good source. Neither so far has been had -- shown to have had a good source on finding Saddam.
DOBBS: How good are Saddam Hussein's sources? Do you think he could have gotten out of the country, successfully found a hiding place, for example, in Tikrit?
COCKBURN: Oh, he might have got out of Baghdad. He might have gotten as far as Tikrit. I doubt he's trying to get out of the country, because places he could go would be Iran and/or Syria. And I don't think either of those countries would be keen to see him. He'd certainly be more trouble than he was worth.
Tikrit is his home base. That's where his tribe is. That's probably the one place in Iraq where they maybe -- where they love him, so -- because he did a lot for Tikrit, and Tikritis really ran Iraq, ruled Iraq for 30 years. So if I were him, that's where I would head, and if he -- you know, he's very good at this, he's been on the run before, he's been in tight corners before. He might well have tried to do that, and he might well have got there.
DOBBS: What do you make of the fact that, to this point, none of the top leadership of Saddam's regime has been -- has been found, with the exception of Chemical Ali?
COCKBURN: Isn't that interesting? I mean, you know, you'd expect by now Tariq Aziz or Vice President Ramadan or, you know, one of those famous characters we got to know and love so much on TV, even the information minister, who's been making such an impression the last few weeks, would have turned up. I'm not sure if we're looking for them very energetically. We may find them in one of their many commodious homes around the place.
DOBBS: Andrew Cockburn, we thank you very much for being with us here.
COCKBURN: You're welcome.
DOBBS: When we continue, Iraqi military still dug in, ready for a fight in northern Iraq. Kevin Sites will have that story for us.
Then, speaking out in support of the troops, tens of thousands gather at the site of the World Trade Center in a display of support. That dramatic story coming up in just a moment.
And it was the shot seen around the world. The shot, a picture, Bill Tucker will have the story of the young American who caught the world's attention. That story and more still to come. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: A show of support for our troops in Iraq today in Washington.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (singing): God bless America, land that I love...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: The singing of "God Bless America" among the highlights of a ceremony today on Capitol Hill. Congressmen gathered to show their support for the nation's men and women serving in the war in Iraq.
New York City was the scene of another pro-troop rally. Thousands of union workers turned out at the site of the former World Trade Center, waving flags and homemade signs.
And Hanoi Jane is back in the news, this time from Vancouver. Jane Fonda told a crowd of Canadians that she is opposed to the war in Iraq and that her fellow Americans are, in her words, or word, ignorant. It was three decades ago Jane Fonda traveled to Hanoi to protest the Vietnam War, an action for which she later apologized.
As we reported, the northern city of Kirkuk today fell to U.S. and Kurdish forces. Just outside the city limits, however, Iraqi fighters braced for a last stand.
Kevin Sites is outside Kirkuk with the story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KEVIN SITES, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): About 12 miles southwest of Kirkuk, a group of armed Iraqi soldiers in civilian clothes are spotted trying to hide in a field. Kurdish Peshmerga swarm around them.
(on camera): Peshmerga running through the fields towards the Iraqis. They're holding up their weapons.
(voice-over): They give up their weapons and surrender without a shot. They beg their captors not to shoot them. But then something unusual happens.
(on camera): What will you do with them now?
(voice-over): The Peshmerga commander embraces one and gives him a peck on the cheek, and says this.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): So now we'll set all of them free, and everyone is -- can go back to his home.
SITES: He says with Saddam Hussein gone, they're all Iraqis now. But not everyone shares his enthusiasm.
As we probed the road south toward Tikrit, we literally drove into an Iraqi army checkpoint. They were as shocked to see us as we were to see them. The one on the right wears the red beret and uniform of a paratrooper. They stopped us from shooting and told to us turn around.
We left unharmed, but later they fired on Peshmerga fighters that got too close.
(on camera): The sun is setting now, and the city of Kirkuk is free. But just two kilometers away from our position, Iraqi soldiers are still dug in and ready to fight.
(voice-over): But while those soldiers at the checkpoint may be prepared to make one final stand, these Iraqi soldiers, who had been captured hiding in the field, now catch a ride back to their home in northern Iraq, leaving the war and the regime they once fought for behind them.
Kevin Sites, CNN, on the southern outskirts of Kirkuk.
(END VIDEOTAPE) DOBBS: Coming up next, it was one of the most dramatic moments, a U.S. Marine draping a flag briefly across the statue of a dictator. That Marine, the son of immigrants who fled another dictator. We'll have his story next. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Yesterday, one young Marine briefly put an American flag over the face of a statue of Saddam Hussein. A number of people in the media immediately clucked their disapproval, talking, some of them, at least, about being offended by the gesture.
On this broadcast, we were not offended. And, as it turns out, near were a lot of people in Brooklyn, the proud home town of that young Marine from Bensonhurst, Brooklyn.
Bill Tucker with the story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Marine Corporal Edward Chin is New York's newest hometown hero.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The same guy that put the cab, that put the flag up on Saddam Hussein's face. (UNINTELLIGIBLE) doing it. Because Brooklyn people come up with things like that.
TUCKER (voice-over): Corporal Chin earned his spot in history with this moment. His picture splashed across televisions and newspapers televisions around the world. This is where his family lives, the Bensonhurst section of Brooklyn, New York. Corporal Chin, the son of an immigrant family who came to New York after fleeing the oppression of a dictatorship in Miyanmar (ph). He is the son of very proud parents.
STANLEY CHIN, FATHER OF CORPORAL EDWARD CHIN: I'm so happy for everybody, you know, for our country, for the Iraqi people.
LAI KOON CHIN, MOTHER OF CORPORAL EDWARD CHIN: For the freedom.
TUCKER: So are his sisters.
CONNIE CHIN, SISTER OF CORPORAL EDWARD CHIN: I can't really put into words what I'm feeling, but I'm just very proud of my brother right now.
TUCKER: They say he always wanted to be a Marine.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think, you know, he's a good kid, did the right thing.
TUCKER: It's a long way from Miyanmar to Bensonhurst, and it's about halfway back to Baghdad. A lot can happen on a road like that, and it did. Corporal Chin's road is not finished, and his purpose remains clear.
CPL. EDWARD CHIN, U.S. MARINES: We're going to free this country and give it back to the people.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TUCKER: This is Bensonhurst, Lou. It is a working-class neighborhood. It was a setting for Jackie Gleason's "Honeymooner" series. Danny DeVito and his wife, Rhea Perlman, hail from Bensonhurst, as does CNN's own Larry King. It's not a bad pedigree.
Lou, back to you.
DOBBS: Absolutely. And it's always amazing that people ask, where do we get these young men? And it's from every part of the country.
Coming up next, your thoughts on the U.N. and Kofi Annan and a few other things. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Well, a look now at your thoughts.
Jim Boyd of Minnesota wrote in to say, "Your gratuitous slap at the United Nations, and especially Kofi Annan, showed a willful and embarrassing lack of understanding about the way the United Nations works. France deserves criticism, perhaps, but not the United Nations, and certainly not Annan. In the Security Council, he is merely an employee. He has no power to make things go the way the United States desires them to go. You really do owe a very good man an apology."
Well, in my opinion, Kofi Annan is the one who owes the apology, certainly not to me, but to the people of Iraq, and, I believe, the entire Middle East.
Of the countries who tried to block the United States, Mark Finkelstein in Iowa wrote in to say, "The French, Germans, and Russians waste no time rushing in to demand a piece of the American finance reconstruction pie. These are the same wonderful people who profited and partnered with Saddam."
And finally, Ken O'Keefe in Pennsylvania wrote in to say, "I find it laughable that the United States intends to provide Iraq with what it doesn't possess itself, namely, democracy. Only an idiot would believe the United States is a government by the people."
Ken O'Keefe, meet Jane Fonda.
Send us your thoughts at moneyline@cnn.com. They're all welcome.
Paula Zahn, Wolf Blitzer coming right up next. They'll be followed by Larry King. I'm Lou Dobbs in New York.
Heidi Collins has the latest developments from CNN Center.
COLLINS: Thanks, Lou.
I'm Heidi Collins in the CNN newsroom. These are the latest stories now at this hour.
The Iraqi capital may be free today, but it is not free of danger. Once again, a suicide bomber at a U.S. military checkpoint seriously wounded four Marines this time, and one Marine was killed, 22 injured, when they took fire while investigating a meeting at a Baghdad mosque. We'll have much more on the day's events in Iraq just ahead.
Thousands of people, most of them labor union workers, flocked to ground zero in lower Manhattan today to voice their support for the war. Three thousand people died on September 11, 2001. The U.S. has alleged ties between Iraq's rulers and al Qaeda but says it has no evidence of Iraqi involvement in the September 11 attacks.
The latest news out of Iraq made news in the oil markets today. The price of crude dropped almost 5 percent to $27.46 a barrel on expectations of increased supply from Iraq.
In other news now, a 6-year-old American boy is alone in Hong Kong tonight after -- under observation for severe acute respiratory syndrome, the same disease that killed his father. James Salisbury (ph) and his son, Mickey (ph), were transferred to a Hong Kong hospital from mainland China, where Salisbury was a teacher.
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