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CNN LOU DOBBS MONEYLINE
Pentagon: Major Combat Operations in Iraq Over
Aired April 14, 2003 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, HOST: Tonight, the Pentagon says major combat operations in Iraq are ended. Tonight we focus on the dangerous fight that remains. And over the course of this next hour, we'll also turn our attention to the question of whether the United Nations will be successfully used to hijack the coalition's victory in Iraq.
France, Germany and Russia say the United Nations should take the leading role in the reconstruction of Iraq, even though they oppose the war against Saddam Hussein. Kitty Pilgrim will have a special report on why the coalition does not need the United Nations.
We'll also debate the role of the United Nations with Max Boot, a senior fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations, David Sheffer, vice president of the United Nations Association who says the U.N. Iraq is essential.
Soldiers of the 101st Airborne Division have found 11 mobile chemical and biological weapons laboratories. This is the first hard evidence that Iraq may have had a secret program to make weapons of mass destruction. Ryan Chilcote with 101st Airborne will have the story. And one of this country's leading experts on biological and chemical weapons, Colonel David Franz will be here to tell us why today's find is deeply troubling.
And tonight we will focus on the positive in this economy of ours which is growing faster than any other major Western economy. Jan Hopkins tonight will tell us why the outlook for our economy is decidedly positive.
And I'll also have a few concluding thoughts on why some journalists are trying to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.
But first we go to Kyra Phillips at CNN Center in Atlanta for the latest headlines at this hour.
(NEWSBREAK)
DOBBS: Good evening. New evidence tonight that the regime of Saddam Hussein took extraordinary measures to conceal equipment that could only be used to produce weapons of mass destruction. Members of the 101st Airborne Division have found 11 mobile chemical and biological weapons laboratories south of Baghdad. All of the mobile labs were buried in the ground. They had been marked so they could be recovered. Ryan Chilcote reports from Karbala.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) RYAN CHILCOTE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You'll recall that we discussed one such site near the city of Karbala about 50 miles south of Baghdad about a week ago where the 101st believed that they had either found a chemical agent or a high-grade pesticide. A short while ago I spoke with General Benjamin Freakly from the 101st Airborne. He has been tracking these issues. He gave me an update on where the 101st is at the so-called sensitive sites.
BRIG. GEN. BENJAMIN FREAKLY, 101ST AIRBORNE U.S. ARMY: Those turned out after further analysis as you and I had talked about, not being chemicals. They're high-grade pesticide.
CHILCOTE: As you saw with the first site, they thought they were onto something. They'd done a barrage of tests using various chemical tests to look at the agents that they had there. I'm not even sure that we're that far with this new site. This is complicated business. It really requires several levels of testing. And that is what we have seen so far with the 101st. They bring in one level of an inspection team, they come to some conclusions, then they bring it up another level.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Ryan Chilcote with the 101st Airborne. We will soon be joined by one of this country's leading experts on chemical and biological weapons, Dr. David Franz. He is a former U.N. weapons inspector, formerly a colonel in the U.S. Army, deputy commander of the Army's Medical Research Material Command.
Saddam Hussein's hometown is tonight in coalition hands. Marines advances into Tikrit today. They took control of one of Saddam Hussein's palaces. Julian Manyon of ITN reports from Tikrit.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JULIAN MANYON, ITN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): U.S. helicopter gunships blast Iraqi positions on the outskirts of Tikrit.
But this was not the "battle royale" that many had predicted. And tonight, Saddam Hussein's home town is firmly in American hands.
Earlier, we drove in from the north on a dangerous road where, a little later, militant Arabs fired on another group of journalists.
We were lucky and got through to American positions at a half- destroyed bridge. We found U.S. Marines already in occupation of Tikrit's main square -- still dominated by an equestrian statue of the fallen dictator.
We joined the Marines as they pushed forward to secure the main populated area of the city. Ahead of us, helicopter gun ships swooped over the roof tops.
(on camera): We're with a forward group of U.S. Marines, which is advancing extremely cautiously towards what we believe is the central mosque of the city of Tikrit. The situation at the moment is calm. There is no shooting, but it is extremely tense. And it's clear that these American soldiers believe that they could come under fire at any moment.
(voice-over): Many Tikritis had fled. Those who remained watched the American seizure of their city calmly but with little warmth.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): We support anyone who comes here -- Saddam or anyone else. All we want is peace.
MANYON: The Americans occupied government complexes and carefully secured the police headquarters already half destroyed by bombing. Then, suddenly, the gun ships went into action.
(on camera): American helicopters and now jets have been striking targets just beyond the outskirts of the city behind me over there.
We've been told by local people that, until yesterday, this area was full of what they called Fedayeen -- the irregular fighters who have been fighting on behalf of Saddam Hussein. And it's possible that those units have now tried to pull out northwards and are being attacked by the Americans from the air.
(voice-over): In fact, the Iraqis had withdrawn to a military base just outside the city, and it was immediately bombed by the Americans.
The fight for Tikrit was effectively over. What remains are grandiose monuments to Saddam's rule.
This was one of his favorite palaces, but today American armor filled his drive. Looters had already emptied the once magnificent buildings. The Americans found only empty chambers and no answer to the question of where the fallen tyrant may now be.
Julian Manyon, ITV News, Tikrit.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: With the fall of Tikrit, the Pentagon today said major combat operations in Iraq have ended. Major General Stanley McChrystal said coalition forces now expect a series of smaller sharp fights. Patty Davis has the report from the Pentagon.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PATTY DAVIS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): With Saddam Hussein's regime dismantled, U.S. troops worked with Iraqi police to restore order in Baghdad and other cities. But the Pentagon isn't declaring victory yet.
GENERAL STANLEY MCCHRYSTAL, CENTCOM: I would anticipate that the major combat engagements are over, because the major Iraqi units on the ground cease to show coherence.
DAVIS: The air campaign is now phasing out. Some F-117's, and B-2 stealth bombers have been sent home. Air missions have dropped to 700 to 800 per day, less than half their highest level. The Pentagon said two aircraft carrier battle groups, the USS Kitty Hawk and the USS Constellation, will leave the Persian Gulf within days. So far there' s no plan to pull ground troops, who continue to face danger from snipers, renegade remnants of the Republican Guard, and suicide bombers. With combat winding down, the hunt for weapons of mass destruction is ratcheting up. So far though, on confirmed finds.
MCCHRYSTAL: We don't have positive or negative either way. We have gone to some of the major sites as I said, and in fact shipped samples back to the United States for detailed analysis.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DAVIS: And the hunt for Saddam Hussein and other Iraqi officials remains a top priority for the U.S. military. Also a top priority, finding the four Americans still unaccounted for. They are one Army, one Marine, and two members of the Air Force - Lou.
DOBBS: Patty, thank you very much. Patty Davis reporting from the Pentagon. British Defense Secretary Geoff Hoon today said he believes Saddam Hussein and his top officials remain in Iraq. This, as the White House is ratcheting up the pressure against Syria, accusing Syria of harboring high-ranking Iraqi officials. White House press secretary Ari Fleischer today called Iraq's neighbor a rogue nation. David Ensor reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Beyond the warnings to Damascus from the Bush administration, some specific allegations.
DONALD RUMSFELD, U.S. SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: We have intelligence that indicates that some Iraqi people have been allowed into Syria, in some cases to stay, in some cases to transit.
ENSOR: Family members of some senior Iraqi leaders and senior Baath Party officials are desperately trying to get into Syria, said Pentagon officials, and may try to go from there to Libya. But other U.S. officials, while they confirm evidence some lower level Iraqis may have crossed the border, say there is in fact no evidence any senior Iraqi leader has been allowed into Syria thus far. Pentagon officials also say Syria should resist the temptation to acquire Iraqi scientists to help with its chemical weapons program.
RUMSFELD: We have seen chemical weapons tests in Syria over the past 12, 15 months.
ENSOR: A recent CIA report says Syria has a stockpile of the nerve agent sarin and is trying to develop more toxic and persistent nerve agents. Syria denies it has any weapons of mass destruction. GEOFFREY KEMP, NIXON CENTER: Someone said that with the demise of Saddam Hussein, there is now a vacancy in the axis of evil, and that Syria is a natural candidate to join the axis.
ENSOR: But it is not that simple. Complicating the picture, Syria's help in the war on terrorism. Secretary of State Powell told the Senate Foreign Relations Committee last year that, quote, "The president has taken note of Syria's cooperation on al Qaeda. Syria's cooperation in this regard has been substantial, and has helped save American lives." Furthermore, analysts say, the U.S. has limited leverage over Damascus. Military action, they say, would not make sense.
KEMP: The danger is that if you get involved with Syria in a military way, it is very difficult to see how Israel would be left out.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ENSOR: Still, Assad deeply angered the U.S. by allowing fighters into Iraq to try to kill Americans. The pressure on him from here on will likely be unrelenting - Lou.
DOBBS: David, thank you very much. David Ensor from Washington.
Coming up tonight, I'll have a few thoughts on journalists and their remarkable ability to reshape opinions to suit reality.
And U.S. troops find mobile laboratories buried in the sands of Iraq. Chemical and biological weapons expert Dr. David Franz to tell us why that is a significant development.
And Iraqi police are back on the streets of Baghdad. Christiane Amanpour will have the report for us.
And seven American prisoners of war are on their way home tonight. Ed Lavandera will report on the homecoming that awaits them. Stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
EDGAR MARTINEZ, FORMER POW: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) I'm very happy that the Marines came for us. I'm happy that I'm going home. I'm happy that I'm going home to my family.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: As re reported at the outset U.S. troops have found 11 mobile chemical and biological laboratories buried south of Baghdad. Soldiers of the 101st Airborne Division found those laboratories buried in the ground near an ammunition plant in Karbala. My guest tonight says there is no reason for Saddam Hussein to have mobile chemical and biological laboratories buried unless he wanted to make weapons of mass destruction. Colonel David Franz, a former U.N. weapons inspector, in fact, he lead three biological warfare inspections in Iraq. He is also a former deputy commanders of the Army's elite Medical Research Material Command. He served in that command for 23 years.
Colonel, good to have you with us.
COL. DAVID FRANZ, U.S. ARMY (RET.), FMR. U.N. WEAPONS INSPECTOR: Evening, Lou.
DOBBS: The laboratories that were found buried there, how significant in your judgment?
FRANZ: Well, I don't - I would doubt that Saddam has a sense of humor that would leave him to bury a vaccine facility or a pharmaceutical facility. I'm still waiting to hear what they find inside the laboratories. But anything mobile for the production of either chemicals or biologicals, even if they're claimed to be legitimate chemicals or biologicals, I think looks pretty suspicious to me.
DOBBS: In your time as a weapons inspector there, did you have any indication that Iraq was in possession of these mobile laboratories?
FRANZ: Not at that time. We did visit Al Mutano (ph), which was the large chemical warfare facility at which they had some, I believe, German-made filling facilities which were portable. They were about like a trailer house, like a fancy trailer house. These seemed to be different than that. I'm told that they're 20 by 20, and the others were long and narrow.
DOBBS: Suggesting what, Colonel?
FRANZ: Well, I don't know what the shape actually tells us, but it tells me that they're probably different than the ones we saw. And if they contain a capability to produce either chemical or biological agents, I think that will be very, very interesting.
DOBBS: Is there any reason that you can imagine that would tell us why Saddam Hussein, his regime, would have these mobile laboratories, other than to have weapons of mass destruction?
FRANZ: Not really. And certainly, the fact that he buried them, I think, tells us even more. It's possible that they have been built and produced to use - to produce chemicals or buy biologicals but may have never been used, for example. I think even if that's the case and we can't find remnants of the chemicals or we can't PCR DNA from biologicals out of them, just the fact that they're either buried or mobile and have wheels or whatever, says something about intent, at least or certainly the strong suggestion with regard to intent.
DOBBS: And apparently there is considerable suspicion now on the part of the United States government that weapons of mass destruction, particularly biochemical weapons, have been moved to Syria. Does that make sense to you? FRANZ: Well, it would be possible. I think it's more difficult to move militarily significant quantities of chemical weapons, it could be done, however, than it is to move significant quantities of biological weapons. There's a huge difference between these. It takes a lot more chemical to hurt a lot of people than it does biological. So it would be trivial to move a significant quantities of dried biological weapons to another country.
DOBBS: How long do you think, Colonel, it will take to determine exactly what these mobile laboratories contained? what they were designed for?
FRANZ: Well, I think we - I know we do have exploitation teams in-country, and I'm assuming they're on their way there now, if they're not there already. And I think we could learn a lot by looking at the equipment within them. And I'm sure they will do sampling as well. But even just the equipment would tell us a lot about what they were likely designed to be used for.
DOBBS: Not even 10 percent of the total sites identified by the U.S. military in Iraq as biochemical weapons sites, weapons of mass destruction sites, or at least suspected sites, have been fully inspected. What do you think, Colonel, is the likelihood we will see actual biologicals, chemicals found by those forces?
FRANZ: I have felt all along that we would probably - I would be surprised if we didn't find chemicals and chemical manufacturing capabilities. I won't be shocked if we don't find biological weapons or facilities, however, because when you're talking about biological terrorism, which is what we're talking about now as opposed to warfare, back in '93, '94, '95, you think in terms of a much smaller footprint for the production facility, and certainly a smaller package for the weapon as well.
DOBBS: Colonel David Franz, thank you very much for being with us.
FRANZ: Thank you, Lou.
DOBBS: When we continue here, the rebuilding of Iraq. Should the United Nations be granted a role in the post-war efforts? We will hear two opposing views tonight.
And criticism about rebuilding contracts. Democrats charge that Vice President Cheney's former company, Halliburton, received special treatment. Dana Bash will have that story for us.
And homeward bound, seven American prisoners of war are rescued in Iraq. Ed Lavandera is at their home base in Fort Bliss, Texas, and he will have the story of their homecoming next. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: More than 2000 policemen reported back to work in Baghdad today. But they're not yet patrolling the streets because the recruitment process has been somewhat difficult. Christian Amanpour has the report for us from Baghdad.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): These are the policemen and the officers who were supposed to be restoring order. It was, for a morning, almost as chaotic inside the police academy as on the streets. Saluting him last week, stomping on him today, it seemed the police were trying to purge themselves of Saddam Hussein's brutality that they had helped and perhaps were forced to enforce. Staff Sergeant Jeremy Stafford and the Marines who had come to get the first police patrol out on the beat were overwhelmed.
STAFF SERGEANT JEREMY STAFFORD, U.S. ARMY: So, if figured I would let them have at it. The only other way I could have stopped it was to start using force, and I'm not going to start using force on these people. I think they've had enough of that.
AMANPOUR: Indeed, just last week, they had discarded their uniforms for fear of being shot by Americans entering Baghdad. Now, a few put them on again. All rushed to sign up for their old jobs and feelings that had been bottled up for years pour forth.
The regime used to have a sword at our necks, says Sergeant Fiesel Morsen (ph). If we didn't cooperate, we were fired or sent to prison on trumped-up charges.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have refused to work with Saddam.
AMANPOUR: Hammid Moustaphar (ph) was head of the traffic police back in 1983.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And now, I want to come back and work and to save my people.
AMANPOUR: But not everyone here is reporting for duty. Nor do they trust those who are. Hussein Jerala (ph) has come looking for the security forces who imprisoned and tortured him back in 1999. I was hung by my arms from the ceiling, he said, electrocuted and beaten with sticks. He came with a list of names. He didn't find them, but one army officer offered a mea culpa. Regrettably, as the army, we were a tool of the repression of the Iraqi people says Lieutenant Colonel Adnan Rashid (ph). When we joined up, we thought we'd secure our future and our children's future, but it didn't turning out like that. God willing, we'll make up for the past and correct our relationship with our people.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
So what happened was, said the Marines, they asked for just a couple hundred to come so they could properly screen them and make sure that they were recruiting the good cops back onto the street. Instead, as you mentioned, 2000 turned up and they simply weren't prepared to actually screen that number. So the police have been asked to come back again on Thursday and in the meantime, of course, people on the streets are really quite desperate to see the police because there still continues to be quite brazen looting in some parts of town, whereas in other parts of town things have calmed down somewhat - Lou.
DOBBS: Christiane, give us your best sense of Baghdad in this what we've now entered the second week. Is the atmosphere there improving? Can you feel a more positive environment?
AMANPOUR: Yes, I think in the week that we've been here, people are sort of - kind of getting over the surprise of what happened last week. They're pleased that Americans are here. They always tell us that we're happy they're here, we're happy they liberated us, but we really need first and foremost security and order. They're very alarmed at this disorder, and it is quite pervasive.
And they also of course want their basic amenities in order to be able to feel like they live in a proper city again, electricity, water and all of that. And again, they're looking forward also to what comes next, who's going to be the government? exactly what kind of authority is going to be established here. And I do think that is sort of number one on very many people's minds right now.
DOBBS: Are they any closer to accepting what President Bush has told them, what comes next is freedom?
AMANPOUR: Oh, but they say it all the time, they're happy that they've been liberated. They say that all the time. But with liberation they say they don't want chaos. They say unto us, you know, we didn't invite the Americans in, but they're here. We're happy they liberated us. If they stay and restore order and rebuild and help the country again, they're our guests. But if not, and this was one former army officer who said this, if not and it's just chaotic, then we might have to challenge them.
DOBBS: Challenge them?
AMANPOUR: He said fight.
DOBBS: Not a terrific record on the part of that Iraqi colonel in challenges of anyone.
AMAPOUR: Well, not really, but, you know, people here have been quite worried. The American Marines are telling us that there are militias on the streets. We have reports of sort of casualties quite regularly here, even amongst the military. And the military kind of understands that they do need to get this thing under control and in order fairly smartly.
DOBBS: I was impressed, Christiane, with the sergeant who exhibited great sensitivity toward the people that as he pointed out who had had enough of the use of force. What is the mood of the young Americans there in Baghdad? They've been there, they've had an ordeal. They are now taking responsibility for order. What is the mood amongst our troops?
AMANPOUR: Well, I think the Americans are very upbeat. I think they're very pleased at what's happened. They're pleased at their reception. In many parts of town we see them getting flowers. We see people coming up to them. They're getting generally definitely by and large a very good reception. They know that there are challenges here. And I think mostly, they feel kind of relieved that they thought they were going to get a really tough battle in Baghdad. They thought as they swept up from the south it would get harder and harder towards the capital. Instead they tell us, it got easier and easier and the reception got warmer and warmer. So they're certainly pleased about that. And now the challenge is to, you know, make sure that they win the peace as well as having won the war and they know that.
DOBBS: And that process well under way. Christiane, thank you very much as always. Christiane Amanpour from Baghdad.
DOBBS: Coming up next, we will have the latest developments in the war in Iraq.
Then the United States and the United Nations, debating the U.N.'s role in post-war Iraq. Kitty Pilgrim will have the special report.
White House correspondent Dana Bash looks at the connections among Vice President Dick Cheney, his former company Halliburton, the rebuilding of Iraq and certain partisan forces.
And you can hear bad economic news. Tonight here Jan Hopkins will report on a number of facts that are simply positive about this economy. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The United States is strongly resisting calls for the United Nations to take the leading role in reconstruction of Iraq, those calls, of course, coming principally from France, Germany, and Russia, all countries that worked very hard to obstruct the coalition in its efforts to take military action against Saddam Hussein - Kitty Pilgrim reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KITTY PILGRIM, CNNfn CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The camouflage helmets did the heavy fighting to liberate Iraq but now some are arguing for the blue helmets to take over. But Secretary of State Colin Powell says it's not so simple.
COLIN POWELL, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: The United States is not mad at the United Nations. We believe they have a role to play but, at the same time, it was this coalition of nations that was willing to put its treasure at risk.
PILGRIM: The U.S. military is already doing the initial humanitarian work through its civil affairs unit. Food, equipment, hospital supplies are moving in and the coalition has reestablished the water supply to cities in the south.
U.S. forces are patrolling the streets and helping to establish order in major cities and Iraqi policemen are showing up to form joint police patrols with the U.S. troops. That, says Prime Minister Tony Blair, is how it should evolve. The coalition has said from the beginning that Iraqis should step up to take charge.
TONY BLAIR, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: Iraq is a nation with a creative people, potentially wealthy with a dynamic and prosperous future ahead of it. They don't need to be run from the outside by the U.S., the U.K., or the U.N. and they won't be.
PILGRIM: France, Russia, and Germany are angling for a role, holding a mini summit this past weekend in St. Petersburg. Some oppose U.N. involvement at all. Iraqi opposition leader, Ahmed Chalabi said, "I don't think the United Nations would be able to play a central role in Iraq. It became a de facto ally of Saddam Hussein," adding France and Germany because of their opposition to the war were "badly regarded in Iraq."
(on camera): President Bush and Prime Minister Tony Blair have called for the U.N. to fill a vital role in post-war Iraq but by no means the primary one. The success of the coalition with little help from the United Nations gives considerable weight to that assessment.
Kitty Pilgrim, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Joining me now to share their views, which are very much opposed about the role of the United Nations in post-war Iraq, David Sheffer, he is vice president of the United Nations Association of the United States, joins us tonight from Santa Fe, New Mexico; Max Boot who is senior fellow with the Council of Foreign Relations and joins us obviously from here in New York, gentlemen good to have you here.
If I may turn to you first, David, the United Nations was a tool of obstruction for the French, the Germans, and the Russians. How can they possibly play a role now?
DAVID SHEFFER, U.N. ASSOCIATION-USA: Well, Lou, in the aftermath I think it's important to look to the future, obviously, and in seven different areas the United Nations will have really critical roles to play.
I take the president's words very literally. He says there is a vital role for the United Nations and it's not a role that is superceding all other roles as some sort of central authority for Iraq. No one in New York is speaking in those terms.
The devil is in the details and it's in the details where the United Nations will have extremely vital roles to play, whether it be disarmament, the oil industry, justice, civil police, civilian police, an interim government, reconstruction, and then of course humanitarian.
In each of these areas there will be a different role for the United Nations to play and, I think what people are concerned about is, is there a coherent discussion about what that role will be or is it an evolving situation where the United Nations is going to be asked to come in at a particular point in time by the occupying powers and, if so, will the major nations in the United Nations and the institution itself be receptive to those appeals at that point in time.
I would like to see a more coherent discussion up front than to see this dribble out and perhaps become very contentious and confrontational over the coming weeks and months.
DOBBS: David, if I may say, I think it's already reached a pretty good level of contentiousness.
Max, what do you think of David's view?
MAX BOOT, COUNCIL ON FOREIGN RELATIONS: Well, I think it's reasonable to say that the U.N. should play some role, Lou, but not a central one. I would certainly agree with David there, but my concern is that the U.N. would be a stocking horse for France, Russia, and Germany, the countries that didn't help to cook the dinner but now want a big slice of dessert. They want the goodies of the reconstruction contracts going to their own countries.
These are the countries that propped up Saddam Hussein's regime for many years with massive arm sales and other help for the regime and I certainly don't think that they should be playing a central role in a new, more democratic, Iraq.
My real concern, Lou, with the United Nations is they just have a terrible track record at doing these kinds of reconstruction projects that we're doing in Iraq. If you look at their track record in places like Cambodia, Bosnia, or Kosovo, it's not very inspiring.
DOBBS: Do you look to them to be primarily humanitarian, Max?
BOOT: I think they can certainly provide some humanitarian relief. I mean the big thing, Lou, that they actually need to do right now is to lift the sanctions on Iraq so we can go around reconstructing Iraq, because right now the sanctions are still there and until they agree to lift them, that's going to hinder our ability to rebuild the country.
DOBBS: You know, I'm not sure, Max, there were some basic United Nations provisions that would have prevented an armed force from crossing the Iraqi-Kuwait border too. There seems to be a certain amount of resourcefulness in overcoming some of those strictures.
David, what do you say to that issue because the issue of humanitarian aid is obviously critical? It's going to be provided by a number of nations and organizations, including the United Nations obviously.
But we also have the situation here, David, where we - there's an issue of values, that is the United Nations has not followed forth on the values that ultimately led to the liberation of the Iraqi people. You heard Chalabi say that he was very concerned about it. What's your view there? SHEFFER: Well, Lou, I think some of that is rather deceptive reasoning. Chalabi is Chalabi but, frankly, if you talk to and see in the print the views of other Iraqis, particularly in the indigenous opposition, first they don't want the United States to be in the lead during the occupation, and secondly they do express an interest in the international community assisting them towards the creation of the interim government but more importantly...
DOBBS: But the international community, David, is not necessarily the United Nations. That can take many forms. It can take NATO, the coalition of the willing...
SHEFFER: That's right.
DOBBS: ...which has proved ultimately very effective in giving the indigenous Iraqis as you put it some voice.
SHEFFER: Well, true but it's also a very deceptive argument to say that the United Nations somehow has anti-Iraqi values of the last ten or so years. If you look at the record of what the Security Council has done, it's true the Security Council didn't authorize military intervention.
DOBBS: But, David, I think it ought to be heard so there's no confusion. I was talking about the role of the United Nations, Kofi Annan, the secretary-general, since September period.
SHEFFER: Yes, and it adopted Resolution 1441, which provided a basis for further engagement with Iraq and the inspections regime and setting up frankly the argument that the United States used to go into Iraq...
BOOT: Lou, if I may.
SHEFFER: ...the non-compliance of the Iraqi government.
BOOT: Lou, if I may just jump in. I think the real issue of the United Nations is they're just not very good at running things. If you look at what they're doing in Kosovo, they've been in charge since 1999 and they still can't get the power turned on in Pristina, much less to energize genuine democracy.
So, I think this is not a track record that gives you a lot of hope that they would be very successful in transitioning Iraq to a democratic form of government anytime soon. For that reason, I think that the British and the Americans, the folks who did the fighting, need to take the lead in rebuilding Iraq and turning it over as soon as possible to the people of Iraq, not to U.N. bureaucrats.
DOBBS: David, you get the last word.
SHEFFER: Well, no one is suggesting really turning it over to U.N. bureaucrats, but there are comparative advantages in the experience of the United Nations in so many of these issues, particularly the ones that will come down to very legal issues of how far can the occupying powers go to take steps in so many of these sectors of operation without the reengagement of the U.N. Security Council to pave that way for the occupying powers to use their authority and that means going back through the swag of diplomacy at the United Nations.
And, I would fundamentally disagree with Max about the history of U.N. operations. That's another discussion but when it comes to what the U.N. has done in a comparative sense their job was pretty good in the 1990s.
DOBBS: David, we'll have both you and Max back to discuss at some length the history of the United Nations, its stellar achievements and slumbering disappointments, is that fair? David, thank you very much. Max, thank you.
BOOT: Thank you, Lou.
DOBBS: Coming up next, I'll share with you my views on some members of the press, some institutions of the press, domestic and foreign and their ability, it seems, to try to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.
Also, some Democratic Congressmen want a Halliburton contract investigated because Vice President Cheney wants work for that company.
American prisoners of war are on their way home tonight. Ed Lavandera is in Fort Bliss, Texas, with their families and he will have what is a very good news story. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The seven American prisoners of war rescued this weekend are on their way home tonight. Five of those POWs belong to the Army's 507th Maintenance Company which is based at Fort Bliss, Texas. Ed Lavandera has the story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We were right in the middle of their crossfire.
ED LAVANDERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): After spending three weeks as prisoners of war, these soldiers enjoyed the one-way ticket out of Iraq. Twenty-three-year-old Joseph Hudson flashes the thumbs-up.
JOSEPH HUDSON, FORMER POW: I love you all Marines. I love you all Marines.
LAVANDERA: Edgar Hernandez sends a message home.
EDGAR HERNANDEZ, FORMER POW: I'm happy that I'm going home to see my family.
LAVANDERA: When Shoshana Johnson walked off the plane, her father says he could tell she was in pain. She suffered gunshot wounds in each leg but her sister says that pain is nothing considering that nine of her fellow soldiers didn't make it out of the March 23rd ambush alive.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Some people who were right there with her don't have what she has. They don't have what we have, you know, and I mean I hope that the others, those are missing, that their families can get what we have now, you know, to think about, you know, this time constructively like what they're going to do when this person gets back. You know and I just want to tell them to hold on. Hold on because we got ours back. You know, you can get yours back too.
LAVANDERA: The mother of Apache helicopter pilot Ronald Young is celebrating a birthday on this day. Kaye Young didn't need any candles on her cake. Her wish came true the day before, watching the images of her son being rescued, then hearing his voice on the phone.
KAYE YOUNG, MOTHER OF FORMER POW: The best day of my life yesterday, it was hard to believe yesterday that, I mean that he could just run out and just be running and, you know, we would see him in good health. You know he may have lost a few pounds but I mean he was laughing. When he called on the phone he was joking with us. He was happy. He was - couldn't wait to get home and see everybody, said tell everybody he loved them. He just sounded like his normal self.
LAVANDERA: For Michele (ph) Williams, the last three weeks have seemed like a movie. Her husband was riding with Ronald Young in the Apache helicopter that crashed behind Iraqi lines. As they celebrate their own good news, they can't help but think of the families who still have loved ones missing in action.
MICHELE WILLIAMS, WIFE OF FORMER POW: Continue to pray. If you don't hear from them, no news is good news. Before this happened, I hadn't heard from him in a couple of weeks but, you know, you just have to continue to pray.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LAVANDERA: Now many of the families from the 507th Maintenance Company are still awaiting to hear official word of when and where they'll be able to see their loved ones. So, they're still waiting for that information and I talked to yesterday a bunch of wives from the 507th Maintenance Company whose spouses are still in the Middle East and they say they're planning one heck of a party when they all get back - Lou, back to you.
DOBBS: Thank you very much, Ed Lavandera from Fort Bliss, Texas.
Well now, a few thought to share. Some journalists and my judgment just can't stand success, especially a few liberal columnists and newspapers and a few Arab reporters.
"The New York Times" in its Sunday editions was kind enough to reassure all of us in its editorial that while they did not "belittle the achievement of American fighting forces," they sure hope Mr. Bush doesn't think the overthrow of the Hussein regime validates the Bush doctrine of preemptive strikes. The editorial goes on to say the administration's noble goals of righting wrongs were overshadowed by an arrogant, go-it-alone stance. "The Times" apparently believes the French and German governments should have some kind of veto over noble goals or, is it just when those goals are pursued by this administration? It makes you wonder.
At least "The Washington Post" forthrightly admitted that the Bush administration was right to act against Saddam Hussein and said straightforwardly that France, Germany, and Russia, were obstructionist.
But then "The Post" went on to helpfully suggest the United States should restore order in Iraq and ensure delivery of humanitarian supplies. I'll bet the White House certainly appreciates "The Post" calling for precisely what the administration has declared it would do from the outset.
And, several Al-Jazeera television journalists have been on the air for several days saying the presence of U.S. troops in Iraq is upsetting to many Iraqis and Arabs, and I haven't heard a single one of those journalists credit the United States for overthrowing the brutal regime of Saddam Hussein.
But I wonder why those same Al-Jazeera journalists weren't asking why those Iraqis and the so-called Arab street weren't more upset about Saddam's torture of their fellow Iraqis and Arabs. It's curious, don't you think?
Coming up next, the U.S. economy has been paralyzed by corporate indiscretion and concerns about the war some say. Well, Jan Hopkins is going to report on a number of positives that are beginning to appear rather forcefully.
Controversy over a Halliburton rebuilding contract, a few Democrats it seems wants to know is favoritism a factor because of Halliburton's ties to Vice President Dick Cheney once upon a time? We'll have that story and more coming up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: There are just a few oil fires remaining in Iraq. Last month, the government tapped a subsidiary of Halliburton. Now, Halliburton is the company that Vice President Cheney used to run once upon a time and Halliburton was, its subsidiary was used to put out those fires.
Now, some Democrats are questioning whether the White House was playing favorites. White House Correspondent Dana Bash has the report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DANA BASH, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): That is the perception in some quarters; the war in Iraq is about oil. Protesters made much of the fact that the vice president was CEO of Halliburton from 1995 to 2000. Adding fuel is this, last month the Army Corps of Engineers awarded to Halliburton's subsidiary, Kellogg, Brown and Root, a contract worth at least $7 million to put out oil well fires in Iraq.
A prominent Democrat wants an investigation in to why other companies were not invited to compete.
REP. HENRY WAXMAN (D), CALIFORNIA: This is particularly troubling because Vice President Cheney came from Halliburton, received many, many millions of dollars from them, is still receiving some deferred compensation from Halliburton.
BASH: But the Army Corps of Engineers says KBR did win a 2001 contract positioning them to put out the oil fires and they were the only company capable of handling the "complex, classified job."
The vice president's office maintains he severed all corporate ties with Halliburton. "He has nothing at all to do with awarding these contracts, the bidding process or the current work orders.
Mr. Cheney still receives compensation from Halliburton, about $150,000 annually until 2005, but that is his salary from 1999, which he chose to defer before running for vice president, and sources close to him say he gets the money no matter how Halliburton fares financially. Despite the perception problems for the vice president, a leading expert says the reality is quite different.
STEVEN SCHOOMER, GWU LAW SCHOOL: There's really no chance that the vice president is actually exerting influence on this. One thing that's difficult to keep in mind is that award decisions for government contracts are made by career civil servants. The politically appointed leaders are not going to get to choose the contractors.
BASH: Industry insiders concede there is no question Halliburton hired Mr. Cheney for his contacts in Washington and the Middle East. Halliburton's government work doubled during his tenure there, but analysts say the relationship is different today.
JIM WICKLUND, BANC OF AMERICA SECURITIES: Second of all, no public company, I don't think, would be foolish enough to try and call in favors on such an obvious basis.
BASH: Halliburton says accusations of preferential treatment are off base, that the company's government work dates back 60 years. Still, there are signs they're aware of suggestions of favoritism.
Halliburton was invited to bid for a $600 million USAID contract as the primary rebuilder of Iraq's infrastructure. The company declined to compete for the high profile job, planning instead to bid for subcontracting work less likely to make headlines.
(on camera): But the big contracts are yet to come. Iraq's oil fields haven't been upgraded in a dozen years and Halliburton is likely to get some of the lucrative work to modernize them. So, as one analyst put it, there are still partisan rocks yet to be thrown. Dana Bash, CNN, the White House.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: There always are. Coming up next here signs that this economy is in a lot better shape than some of those nervous Nellies out there are talking about, Jan Hopkins will have the very factual report on the many positives in this economy of ours.
And we'll have your thoughts on coverage of the war against Saddam Hussein, and more. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The Dow Jones Industrials today soared nearly 150 points. The Dow has gained seven percent over the past month. The economy is also showing many signs of improvement. Jan Hopkins has the story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JAN HOPKINS, CNNfn CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The comedy "Anger Management" was just the ticket for moviegoers this weekend. It broke all records for an April movie opening.
MARTIN GROVE, "HOLLYWOOD REPORTER" ONLINE: Clearly, if you have 42 million at the box office and then you divide that by five you got, you know, 8 million some people who went to see the movie. That's a lot of people.
HOPKINS: One of the country's largest travel companies, Carlson, Wagon (ph), Lett (ph), says 20 percent of its agents report this week's positive news from the war is leading to more bookings especially for leisure travel.
Wal-Mart the country's largest retailer says sales so far in April are up five to seven percent. Economists say a number of events are coming together in a positive way.
DIANE SWONK, CHIEF ECONOMIST, BANK ONE: There is a sense that at least the urgency of the war from our status in the U.S. is over that people can sort of take a big side of relief and move on with business, and we're certainly seeing that through everywhere from building contracts to getting outside and getting out and moving ahead.
HOPKINS: The good news even flowed on Wall Street with Citigroup and Bank of America earnings up over last year. So far, with just ten percent of companies reporting, earnings are up three and a third percent compared to 2002.
(on camera): Movie theaters are just one place benefiting from the surge in consumer confidence. We are also hearing from people who track overall retail sales that the numbers are rebounding from the slump that came with the war.
Jan Hopkins, CNN, New York. (END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Still ahead we'll have your thoughts, including one e- mail that is highly critical of the media. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Now looking at your e-mails, Fred O'Neill of Ohio wrote to say: "Lou, you're giving Baghdad Bob some stiff competition with your rosy forecast for Iraq's future. No one ever said the Bush administration wouldn't win the war. Winning the peace could prove to be more difficult, but of course I realize you're only interested in the saving of the oil fields."
Bob Beatty of Pennsylvania wrote to say: "I enjoy our commentary and find your opinions refreshing. Personally, I find it hard to believe that most of the media can't find anything positive in the way Secretary Rumsfeld and our forces are handling the war. First the plan was wrong. Now it's our fault that Baghdad is being looted."
Couldn't agree more; Paula Zahn, Wolf Blitzer coming up next. They'll be followed by Larry King, but first Kyra Phillips has the latest developments from CNN Center. Thanks for being with us.
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