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CNN LOU DOBBS MONEYLINE
Abu Abbas Arrested in Baghdad
Aired April 15, 2003 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, HOST: A dramatic development tonight. A clear link established between Saddam Hussein's Iraq and international terrorism. Coalition forces in Baghdad have arrested the terrorist who masterminded the plot of the Italian cruise ship the Achille Lauro in 1985.
The United States and Britain today made it also clear they are committed to a new era in the Middle East. The first talks were held today between the man expected to lead an interim administration in Iraq, retired General Jay Garner, and Iraqi opposition groups.
Syria was put on notice today it must end its support of terrorism and turn over any senior Iraqi leaders to coalition forces. The Pentagon said U.S. forces have shut down a pipeline that pumped more than a billion dollars worth of oil from Iraq to Syria every year. We'll have reports from the Pentagon, from Jamie McIntyre and Sheila MacVicar in Damascus.
And former Defense Secretary William Cohen will be here to give us his assessment of U.S. policy in the Middle East now. The coalition's victory in Iraq is changing the political landscape of the entire region.
Nobel Peace Prize winner Eli Wiesel will be here to tell us what this all means as U.S. and British forces continue their success in bringing order to Iraq.
The first demonstration of a new democracy took place in Iraq. Several thousand as well marched in Nasiriya to express their views about the future of Iraq, democracy definitely at work. John Vause will have our report.
And we'll go first to Kyra Phillips at CNN Center in Atlanta for the latest headlines at this hour.
(NEWSBREAK)
DOBBS: Good evening. Coalition forces in Baghdad have arrested the Palestinian terrorist who led the hijacking of the Italian cruise ship, the Achille Lauro in 1985. During that hijacking, the terrorists shot and killed a disabled American, Leon Klinghoffer, as he sat in his wheelchair. They threw his body overboard. National Security Correspondent David Ensor joins us live from Washington - David.
DAVID ENSOR, NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, CNN learned earlier today that this man, Abu Abbas, his real name is Mohammed Abbas, was captured by U. S. Special Forces on the outskirts of Baghdad. They raided the house where he was. They had intelligence leading them to that location.
Now, as you mentioned, this is the man who was the mastermind of the hijacking, or the piracy, that led to the capture of the Achille Lauro cruise ship, an Italian cruise ship, back in 1985, and there was the famous incident where one of the tourists on board, Leon Klinghoffer, an American who was wheelchair bound was shot in his wheelchair and pushed overboard into the Mediterranean, where he obviously died.
That was, at the time, considered one of the most brutal acts of terrorism. A lot of time has passed since then and a lot of terrorism. But it's still an incident that is still remembered with a great deal of bitterness by the Klinghoffer family and many other Americans.
Abu Abbas was convicted of murder in an Italian court. He's wanted to serve a murder sentence in Italy. He also had charges against him in the United States for piracy, hostage taking, and conspiracy. I understand that those charges may have expired, but they could be renewed - Lou.
DOBBS: David, do we know precisely how it is that he was apprehended?
ENSOR: All we know is that U.S. intelligence had some information as to where he was and that they were, therefore, able to let the U.S. Special Forces do their job of collecting him there.
There are some reports, which I cannot confirm, that Abu Abbas may have made an attempt to flee to Syria. But I don't know if that's true or not. In any case, he was arrested in a house on the outskirts of Baghdad, Lou.
DOBBS: David Ensor, national security correspondent, reporting from Washington. Thank you, David.
The United States today sent a clear message to Syria that it must not support international terrorism or harbor escaped Iraqi leaders.
Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld said U.S. forces have now shut down a pipeline used for illegal oil shipments from Iraq to Syria. The value of those shipments, set at more than a $ 1 billion a year, in violation of United Nations sanctions. Senior Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre joins us live now with the story - Jamie.
JAMIE MCINTYRE, SR. PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Lou, in fact, the value is put by some Pentagon officials at about $1.2 billion a year for the oil flow along that pipeline, which apparently opened in the year 2000, pumping oil as the United States contends, in violation of the UN sanctions. Today Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld said that pipeline had been shut down.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD RUMSFELD, U.S. SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: I'm sure that no coalition forces destroyed a pipeline. We don't -- we have preserved infrastructure in that country. I am hopeful that they have shut it off. And I have heard that that has happened. But I cannot assure you that all illegal oil flowing from Iraq into Syria is shut off. I just hope it is.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MCINTYRE: Rumsfeld also complained today about what he called the porous borders between Iraq and Syria and said that some of Iraq's ousted leaders may be seeking haven in Syria. He said that they knew that some people had transited through Syria to get to other places. Again, the United States called on Syria not to be a haven for what he called "war criminals".
The U.S. at the same time now is readjusting its mix of forces in the region to reflect the transition from combat operations to more of a humanitarian mission and a search for weapons of mass destruction. We're told that the Army's 1st Armored Division will be going to Iraq as scheduled but without their artillery, and a unit from Texas, The 1st Cavalry Division, will only be deploying its military police. Lou?
DOBBS: Jamie, thank you very much. Jamie McIntyre, our senior Pentagon correspondent.
Secretary of State Colin Powell today said a comprehensive peace in the Middle East would have to include resolving outstanding issues with Damascus, and the Secretary said the United States has no plans to use military force against Syria.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COLIN POWELL SECRETARY OF STATE: We have concerns about Syria. We have let Syria know of our concerns.
We also have concerns about some of the policies of Iran. We have made the Iranians fully aware of our concerns.
But there is no list. There is no war plan right now to go attack someone else either for the purpose of overthrowing their leadership or for the purpose of imposing democratic values.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: Meanwhile, Syrians today strongly denied U.S. accusations that it is a rogue terrorist state. Sheila MacVicar is in Damascus and has the report for us.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SHEILA MACVICAR, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): The litany of allegations and accusations that, on the streets of Damascus, leaves people angry and feeling threatened. There's not much in the Syrian newspapers about what the U. S. administration is saying, but Syrians listened to radio and watched TV.
"We always thought that when the U. S. finished with Iraq," he says, "they would start to make accusations against Syria. "We are lost," says this man. "Why are the Americans treating us like this?"
FAROUK AL-SHARAA, SYRIAN FOREIGN MINISTER: Sometimes they don't know what they want.
MACVICAR: Sometimes even the government here seems bewildered by what the U. S. administration says.
AL-SHARAA: We have no problem -- I mean, if you give us any sort of evidence. Because if we say to you no, you are not believing us because this is the third or fourth statement that you are directing against Syria.
MACVICAR: Out here in the Syrian desert is the border with Iraq, sealed now, at least officially, after U.S. pressure. The Syrians insist no members of Saddam Hussein's regime have entered Syria, and Western diplomats in Damascus agree, saying the intelligence on which that allegation is apparently based is "dubious".
(on camera): But there are serious questions, as Britain's foreign secretary has said, that will require serious answers. Questions about Syria's covert chemical weapons program, about its continuing support for groups labeled as terrorist organizations like Hamas and Hezbollah. Now that the U. S. administration has the attention of the Syrians what are they going to ask them to do?
Sheila MacVicar, CNN, Damascus.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: U.S. officials and Iraqi opposition leaders today met for the first time to talk about the formation of a new government in Iraq. The talks were held at an air base near the northern city of Nasiriya. But in a sign that democracy may be already taking hold in Iraq, not everyone was pleased to see that meeting take place, as John Vause reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOHN VAUSE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): On the streets of Nasiriya, rumor and half truths were enough to bring out thousands in protest. The Shiites, they said, were being deliberately ignored. Their concerns going unheard.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Iraq's for Iraq. My oil for my people.
VAUSE: True, some Shiite groups were not represented at this, the first of many town meetings, but the U. S. says only because those Shiites decided to boycott. Some did, in fact turn, up. And there were rumors, like the one this protest organizer told me.
"The Americans came for the oil," he said. "Already a pipeline has been cleared from Kirkuk to Israel."
VAUSE: Everywhere here there are deep divisions and mistrust of American intentions. The local Imam told me -- "We do not trust them when they say they will install an Iraqi leader," he says. "Iraqis can control their own affairs."
But for others, like Brizam Suwal (ph), the only thing that really matters right now is safety for his family. "It doesn't matter if the Americans come or go," he says. "I need peace. I need security." Their home was badly damaged when a coalition air strike hit the Ba'ath party headquarters across the street, and then the looters moved in and took everything out. Politics, it seems, doesn't mean much when all you have left is an old small side table to sit on.
Still, at one of Nasiriya's many barber shops, the talk was about that meeting just a few miles down the road. I asked Jubar (ph) about Ahmed Chalabi, the leader of the exiled National Congress. He's seen him once, he says. "We want one Iraq," he says, "not divided. One Iraq for all people." It's a simple idea, but sometimes the simplest things can be the hardest.
(on camera): This is as close as the people of Nasiriya can get to this meeting. It's being held at an air base about a mile up the road. And that's the problem. Just a small number of hand-picked Iraqis really know what's going on. And so for the rest, a flurry of rumors has filled the void.
John Vause, CNN, Nasiriya.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Well, there are times in the United States army when a general has to listen to a chief warrant officer, and today one of those occasions. An army chief warrant officer, a specialist in chemical weapons, said a brigadier general was mistaken when he said mobile weapons labs had been found south of Baghdad. Ryan Chilcote with the 101st Airborne Division reports from Karbala.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
RYAN CHILCOTE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): In the aftermath of fighting near the city of Karbala, the 101st Airborne Division found at least 10 cargo containers of laboratory equipment buried in close proximity to a warehouse of artillery shells. Their initial findings, that they had found dual-use chemical and biological labs, possible elements of an Iraqi chemical and biological program. Their hunch later discarded by a follow-on team of experts.
CWO MONTE GONZALES, ARMY MOBILE EXPLOITATION TEAM: Based on what we've seen here, all of these containers are full of millions of dollars worth of very high-tech equipment, but it appears that everything inside of there, while it is possible that it has a dual use, it appears to be used for the future construction of additional conventional munitions production on this site.
CHILCOTE: This is not the first false alarm of the war. Another suspect site produced signs of nerve agent that turned out later to be a high-grade pesticide. Things in Iraq are rarely what they appear to be at first glance. GONZALES: Figuring this out, it's like a Scooby Doo mystery, and our best assessment is the stuff was covered up for either survivability in anticipation of a coalition attack or to prevent looting, plain and simple.
CHILCOTE (on camera): The mobile exploitation team Alpha, the U.S. Army's most senior experts in country, will now move on to other sites. They say they will eventually find what they're looking for.
Ryan Chilcote, CNN, with the 101st Airborne Division near Karbala, Iraq.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Coming up next here, Syria Syria's support of Saddam Hussein generates intense pressure from the United States. Kitty Pilgrim will have a special report for us.
And former secretary of defense William Cohen will be here to talk about the future of the U. S.-Syrian relationship and the prospects for democracy moving through Iraq and, indeed, the Middle East.
President Bush is taking advantage of the victory in Iraq and his rising popularity to renew his call for tax cuts. White House Correspondent Suzanne Malveaux will report.
And there are signs that life in Baghdad is beginning to return to normal. Christiane Amanpour will join us with that story. Coming up next. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
The United States has accused Syria of sponsoring terrorism, harboring members of Saddam Hussein's fallen regime, and possessing chemical weapons. Kitty Pilgrim now with more on what has been a belligerent stance of Iraq's neighbor.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KITTY PILGRIM, CNNfn CORRESPONDENT (voice over): With the war in Iraq, suddenly Syria has new neighbors who've dropped in next door to visit, U.S. troops. The current leader, 37-year-old Bashar al-Assad, made it his trademark to rail against the United States over the war in Iraq. The rhetoric played well in the Arab world and at home but not with the United States.
GEOFFREY KEMP, THE NIXON CENTER: He's been extraordinarily belligerent, particularly in the last few weeks. He's a weak president, and this is what worries people, that he seems to be appealing to the street, to the crowd, appealing to Arab nationalism.
PILGRIM: The countries surrounding Syria, a country slightly larger than North Dakota, are Israel, Jordan, Lebanon, Turkey, and Iraq. The United States questions whether Iraqi officials were allowed to flee over the border. Another worry is that members of Hezbollah, a militant group based in Lebanon, are being allowed to pass through Syria to fight U. S. forces in Iraq. Syria's version of the ruling Ba'ath party has major differences with the Ba'ath party in Iraq but share a similar ideology.
HAGAI SEGAL, UNIVERSITY OF LONDON: It also has a very anti- American critique. It very much stresses the idea of Arab unity and that it should be an Arab leader, very anti-Israel.
PILGRIM: Syria was highly dependent on Iraqi oil, piped in illegally in violation of a UN trade embargo on Iraq. Trading partners include Germany Italy, France, Turkey, and Saudi Arabia.
The economy has been in decline. Syria spends six percent of its GDP on the military, even though a quarter of the people live below the poverty line, and 20 percent are unemployed.
Syria is on the U. S. State Department list of countries that support terrorism. The Bush administration has made it clear the war on terrorism would have no geographical limits.
Kitty Pilgrim, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Joining me now, former secretary of defense and regular here, William Cohen. Bill, good to have you here.
WILLIAM COHEN, FORMER SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: Lou, good to be here.
DOBBS: The Defense Department ordered that pipeline, that illegal pipeline from Iraq to Syria, shut down today. They're talking about the fact that it was illegal, but isn't this really just to put more pressure on Bashar Assad?
COHEN: I'm sure that is part of it. But a lot of illegal activity has been taking place over the years. This perhaps is the most flagrant example of it.
It will deprive Syria of about 200,000 barrels of oil, I believe, a day. And so, it's considerable in terms of the oil flow. It will also result in an increase in prices of oil because less oil is going to be flowing into the international market. So, we'll see a double effect as far as that activity is concerned.
DOBBS: The government of Assad -- remarkable situation for this fellow who everybody is describing now as almost a young, inexperienced, untutored, but he is definitely playing with fire here, isn't he?
COHEN: I think he has a very serious problem in terms of where he goes from here. On the one hand, he is young and so-called inexperienced, but he's been on the job now for a couple of years, and I think he should have seen where the future of his country lies. It does not lie in continuing to either possess or produce chemical weapons. There have been reports on this over the years. In fact, I saw them when I was both in the Senate and also at the Defense Department.
Secondly, he does have an issue as far as allowing Hamas and Hezbollah to operate freely, either passing through Syria into southern Lebanon and thereby posing a threat to the region.
DOBBS: He has another problem. He has held Lebanon in occupation for years now.
COHEN: For quite a few years now. And indeed, that's bound to be an issue that will surface as well. What's interesting was the administration's comment that it should -- Syria should consider the implications of its actions. It didn't use the word, "consequences."
And so I think they're trying to send a message at the same time indicating it's serious, that if they're going to have any future for bringing prosperity to the Syrian people, they ought to cease and desist from past practices.
DOBBS: Your best judgment. Will Assad figure it out and do the right thing?
COHEN: I think he will figure it out, that there is no future in simply continuing what has been going on in the past. The past is not prologue in this particular case for him.
DOBBS: As you and I have discussed on this broadcast numerous times, the discussion about the link between international terrorism and the regime of Saddam Hussein. With the death of Abu Nidal last summer in Baghdad and now with the arrest of Abu Abbas, it's pretty much a foregone conclusion, documented, correct?
COHEN: Well, I think, clearly, Baghdad has been a haven and a home for terrorists over the years. The issue will become whether Syria will also want to occupy that position. And I think very clearly the message is anyone coming across from Iraq that is a war criminal as such, you'd better send them back.
DOBBS: We heard anti-war protesters in this country for weeks and months say that the Bush administration had not established a link between international terrorism and the regime of Saddam Hussein.
COHEN: I think it was more specific. The question was was there an al Qaeda link, and was there a link between 9/11 and these ...
DOBBS: And after we saw what happened with Ansar al-Islam in northern Iraq, clearly established again.
COHEN: Well, again, it was a link between al Qaeda and the activity of attacking the United States. That link has yet to be established to the satisfaction of most. Allegations - there's some evidence, but not compelling at this point. Maybe it will turn out that there was a link, in which case the administration will benefit doubly or triply. DOBBS: Well, aside from the administration benefiting and not putting it in the stark partisan terms, what we're talking about here is the -- it seems to me, the veil coming up about something that the president and a number of members of this administration have talked about now for some time since September 11th. Terrorism can't exist without state sponsorship and support. And it's got to end.
COHEN: It does have to end. The question is how we bring it about. We try to bring it about by persuasion if at all possible, by force if absolutely necessary. That could be the very end of the spectrum rather than up front.
DOBBS: Of the two, Bill, we've seen the demonstrated success of force, haven't we?
COHEN: We have. But we also had a compelling case here because Saddam had been in violation of the UN Security Council resolutions for 12 years, and so we had a very compelling case to make. I think we have to be careful ...
DOBBS: Is sponsorship of terrorism a sufficient case?
COHEN: Sponsorship might in the future, in fact, provide -- what level they are supporting it? Would the mere possession of chemical weapons, for example, be sufficient? I doubt it. I think we're going to have to make a different level of argument when we're dealing with countries who can, in fact, legally under the law actually possess them . The question is distribute them. Then we have a different problem.
DOBBS: And support terrorists?
COHEN: Supporting terrorism puts them certainly as pariahs in the international community. It tends to isolate them, hopefully, diplomatically and economically.
Ultimately, military force is the last resort. We don't want to be in a position of having to say we're now going to determine on a global basis what you can or cannot do. If you pose a threat to the United States by supporting international terrorism, then the U. S. does reserve the right to take action.
DOBBS: Reserves the right. I was going to remind you, there is something called the Bush doctrine now, and it's at work.
COHEN: Well, the Bush doctrine was very clearly targeted toward Iraq in terms of what its activities have been. All I'm suggesting is we've got to take care that we don't appear that we are now going to straddle the world and take a position that we will determine what your government should look like, what you should be able to ...
DOBBS: I don't think anybody's suggesting that. I think that...
COHEN: There is a fear on the part of a number of countries that that's precisely DOBBS: Well, maybe the fear is well placed. Have we considered that? Because the fact is a number of countries and a number of peoples have been put in fear of international terrorism, and it's about time to end that fear, isn't it?
COHEN: That's true. The question is how do we deal with it? Do we deal with it by persuading governments that they must shut it down, and we'll isolate them diplomatically and economically initially.
DOBBS: I don't think anyone would argue...
COHEN: Then question whether or not -- force you use as a last resort and not up front. First we'll try the economic and diplomatic, and then we'll try the force.
DOBBS: Bill, it's great to see you as always. And come back soon. How about tomorrow? >>
COHEN: All right, you invite me, I'll be here.
DOBBS: You're invited. Thanks, Bill Cohen.
Coming up next, President Bush pushes tax cuts on tax day.
Suzanne Malveaux will report from the White House.
Then a man of peace who supported the war in Iraq tells us what message this sends to other dictators.
Nobel Peace Prize winner, holocaust survivor, Elie Wiesel, will be my guest.
And Jacques Chirac. Well, he's talking to the president. He didn't say he'd be realistic, but he did say he'd be pragmatic. It's a worldwide revolution. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The war in Iraq has lifted the president's approval rating to its highest point in nine months. The latest "New York Times"/CBS News poll finds 73 percent of Americans now approve of the way the president is handling his job. Twenty-one percent disapprove. The president's approval rating was 59 percent during the week before the war.
The poll also found that for the first time since 2001, a majority of Americans believe the United States is winning the war against terrorism. Sixty-two percent say the United States and its allies are winning, up from 42 percent a month ago.
President Bush continues to split his focus between plans for stabilizing post-war Iraq and plans for stabilizing the domestic economy. Mr. Bush today pressed Congress on a new tax cut proposal that would split the difference between his original plan and the Senate's latest proposal. White House correspondent Suzanne Malveaux reports. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice over): While Mr. Bush acknowledges there is unfinished business in Iraq, he turned his focus on America's tax day to fixing the sagging economy.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The nation needs quick action by our Congress on a pro-growth economic package. We need tax relief totaling at least $550 billion to make sure our economy grows.
MALVEAUX: The president initially proposed a $726 billion tax cut package and acknowledged for the first time it was dead. The Bush administration argues a bigger tax cut will create more jobs and strengthen the economy. But the House approved only $550 billion. The Senate even less, 350.
Moderate Republicans and most Democrats say Bush's tax cut would only benefit the wealthiest Americans and increase the federal deficit. The White House hopes the president's success with Iraq and his high popularity will influence Congress to move closer to his figure. But as expected, his opponents aren't budging.
Democratic Senator John Breaux said, "The president is wisely moving on this, but political popularity can only carry a bad idea so far." And a spokesman for Republican Senator Olympia Snowe said she believes $350 billion reflects what may be the highest number in tax cuts a majority of the Senate will support.
While the White House acknowledges that the military battle may be subsiding, the president's focus on the tax cut battle will only intensify.
ARI FLEISCHER, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: There's a good fight ahead when it comes to how to provide growth for the economy, and the president's going to engage in it.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MALVEAUX: Now, tomorrow President Bush will take his message on the road. He'll be traveling to St. Louis at the Boeing factory, where he'll be selling his tax cut plan. Also, he will be signing that $80 billion war supplemental to pay for the war.
Should also mention, Lou, as well, some reconciliation today. French President Jacques Chirac called President Bush. It's the first time the two leaders have spoken since the beginning of the war. They spoke for about 20 minutes or so, both of them trying to make those first steps towards reconciliation.
Also today, British Prime Minister Tony Blair and German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder appearing side by side saying they too will try to put aside their differences, Lou.
DOBBS: A nice first step, Chirac calling the president. Good form. Any idea about what they talked about? MALVEAUX: Well, as a matter of fact, both of the leaders agreed that Syria should not actually harbor any of Saddam Hussein's officials, members of his regime. We are also told as well that Chirac gave his condolences for those who lost their lives.
They did not actually agree on what the specific role of France was going to be in this post-Saddam regime. We're told by one White House official, actually describing the tone of the conversation, he said it was businesslike, Lou.
DOBBS: Businesslike. All right. And at least the process, as you point out, has begun, Suzanne. Suzanne Malveaux, reporting from the White House.
Still ahead here, we'll take a look at life in Baghdad after Saddam Hussein. Christiane Amanpour will have a report for us live from Baghdad.
Barbara Starr from the Pentagon will report on the inside help the United States received in the dramatic rescue of Private Jessica Lynch.
And officials in California are examining two bodies that may offer clues to the Christmas Eve disappearance of Laci Peterson. A news conference is expected on that shortly. We'll have the latest for you. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWSBREAK)
DOBBS: Life in Baghdad is improving each day. The city, its residents have moved from existence under dictatorship to a life of freedom. But as Christiane Amanpour reports now, the situation in Baghdad is certainly not without problems.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): From fighting force to restoring civil order, the U.S. Marines in Baghdad are trying to make that transition and help Iraq get back on its feet.
Here, the Marines have brought together many engineers and administrators from the ministry of water. Restoring that basic amenity is a priority.
(on camera): The U.S. Marine Corps wrote the book on restoring civil order after wars. It's called the "Small Wars Manual," and they've never done anything this big before. Baghdad alone is a city of 5 million people. It's going to be, they Say, a gigantic task.
LT. COL. BRYAN MCCOY, U.S. MARINE CORPS: I have no idea. I've never done this before. And -- but we're chipping away at it. We're making great progress today.
AMANPOUR: Colonel McCoy's Marines are also now stepping into some police work. Here, stopping a robbery at the Iraqi central bank.
LT. EDWARD L'ANGELLO, U.S. MARINE CORPS: These guys had brand- new bills, dollars, whatever they call them, or dinar, I believe they call them. They had stacks of dinar in their pockets which were brand new, and they came out of the vault, which was on fire, and had just recently been blown. So two and two together, they're robbers.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Come on, get up.
L'ANGELLO: Basically, we're sending a message that, hey, you can't do this anymore in Iraq, it's over.
AMANPOUR: And that's certainly what most residents want to hear. Every day, from just about everyone we meet, we hear urgent demands for more security.
Meantime, the Baghdad police force is still trying to organize itself for the first foot patrols onto the streets of their newly liberated city. Some have this message for the U.S.
CAPT. AHMED SALAMI, IRAQI POLICE FORCE: The Iraqi people don't want Americans to stay here.
AMANPOUR (on camera): But why not?
SALAMI: They -- they came here to liberation. OK? Not to stay here.
AMANPOUR (voice-over): It's a message that's not lost on Colonel McCoy and his team.
MCCOY: One day we're a liberator, the next day we're an occupying force, which nobody wants, to be occupied. That can be six months, or it can be six days. A lot of it has to do with whether we're perceived as ugly Americans, whether we try and present ourselves as authority figures. And the key to that is getting control back into the Iraqi people's hands.
AMANPOUR: Fresh from that robbery that continued after the Marines left, Lieutenant Edward L'Angello has a blunter message for the Iraqis.
L'ANGELLO: You need to get up, you, the Iraqi people, need to get up and start taking charge of your own nation. I mean, America did that a long time ago, and look where we are today.
AMANPOUR: Perhaps reflecting the U.S. administration's vision of trying to recreate the Middle East in its own image.
Christiane Amanpour, CNN, Baghdad.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: My next guest experienced liberation. He's a Holocaust survivor. He fully supported the war against Saddam Hussein. Elie Wiesel is author, Nobel Peace Prize Laureate. He's also a professor at Boston University, home of the Elie Wiesel Center for Judaic Studies.
Good to have you with us, professor.
ELIE WIESEL, NOBEL PEACE LAUREATE: Thank you.
DOBBS: The war, it went better than so many people expected. Is that your view?
WIESEL: I was worried. I lived in fear. I was afraid, first of all, that they would bomb Israel first, and then who knows what? And I must say, it went much faster than I thought. But then I'm not a military person. I have no idea what military people can do or should do.
But the fact is, the American army proved, I think, that it is a good army, and the fact that they tried, that we tried, not to hit civilians or children, the fact that the first night, the first bombing, did not cause a single death, only wounded -- well, only wounded, but still means something.
And therefore, everything went, I think, better than I thought.
DOBBS: We have, at this point, a great deal more to learn about what happened in Iraq with the U.S. operations. But by all accounts, to this point, the care that the U.S. military used to avoid civilian deaths and injury, a remarkable standard in military history.
Iraq today, the first meetings, to talk about its future. Already contest and contentiousness between some elements of the Shi'a and others, some boycotting that process. Are you hopeful that a representative government can be formed through the efforts of the administration, the coalition?
WIESEL: I almost would use a (UNINTELLIGIBLE) expression, since it has to be formed, it will be formed. It will take a lot, I think. We will have to help a lot. We will have to help, all of us, to bring about a situation in which they are feel worthy of their liberation, and not only capable of having it, but also defending it.
And they will do well, I think. They will do well. They will learn that freedom is a gift, and they will share that gift with each other.
DOBBS: The gentleman, the officer there, who talked about, one day we are liberators, the next day we are occupy -- an occupying force, defines as succinctly as one can the challenges facing those young men and women representing the United States government in Iraq.
What, in your best judgment, should the United States -- and I will talk only about the United States right now -- what should the United States do to assure representative government in Iraq? The president has said, and made it clear, and people are getting the idea this president means what he says, to establish a democracy there.
WIESEL: Well, I would really bring in educators, before, we spoke about it before, before we went on the program. I would bring in a peace corps, (UNINTELLIGIBLE) of educators, of therapists.
And then here at home, what I think we should do quickly, is organize in the White House a three-day conference, and bring together spiritual leaders from all over the world, actually, moral leaders, and see what can be done now to transcend, and if not vanquish, the hatred that is the result of this war.
After all, we read in the press, we hear on your own program, what is happening in Arab countries. They are against Saddam Hussein, but they are also against America.
DOBBS: They -- the -- in many respects, I think that's right. I find it -- you use the expression, the Iraqis must find themselves worthy of democracy. Why did you choose that particular expression?
WIESEL: Well, because until now, first of all, they lived under oppression, and we did not hear enough about the rebellion inside Iraq against Saddam Hussein. Now, for instance, we see on television, and we hear the stories of the torture, the torment, the humiliations that they went under. They discovered the prison today I think, or yesterday. Extraordinary labyrinth of deceit, of cruelty, of suffering.
So they didn't do it. Maybe they were afraid, and who am I to judge them? I'm not judging them.
Secondly, what I didn't like, I must say, is the looting. When they looted the museum, 5,000 years of culture went up in smoke, or just went home, because they -- look...
DOBBS: We should point out that that -- the authorities there think that that was principally done by an inside job, if I can put it inelegantly, and not just simply wanton looting.
WIESEL: Well, it was looting. We saw it (UNINTELLIGIBLE) -- we saw the pictures on CNN. We saw the pictures. There was looting. They took everything.
Now, I understand, they were suppressed, they were oppressed, they were persecuted. And the first -- the first movement of liberation has to be something. And I would have expected something else. Now, was it our fault? Maybe, because we went too fast. I think the army itself...
DOBBS: (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...
WIESEL: ... didn't know.
DOBBS: I accept that, Elie. But at the same time, too fast.
WIESEL: Yes, maybe.
DOBBS: Freedom, Donald Rumsfeld, the secretary of defense, said that sometimes freedom is untidy. I think this is a reaction that offended all of us as we saw it, to watch these people for whom many people gave up their lives to offer them freedom, to see them behave this way.
There seems to me a curious, and I would love to know your thoughts on this, but it -- there seems to me to be a curious dynamic at work here. The United States, Britain, Australia, Poland, the coalition, putting at risk young -- the lives of young men and women to bring them freedom -- obviously for our own security, this is not entirely altruistic in no way -- but one would have expected there to be some embarrassment on the part of the Arab states that they had tolerated a regime like Saddam Hussein's.
But instead, the protests against the United States for now being within the sovereign territory of Iraq, it seems to me this dynamic is that we need to apologize, that we need to be culturally sensitive, and there is no, to me strangely, sense of responsibility on the part of the Arab states or even the Arab people in the surrounding states of Iraq for permitting this. It is a peculiar dynamic.
WIESEL: (UNINTELLIGIBLE). When a prisoner leaves prison, the prisoner usually feels disoriented.
DOBBS: Right.
WIESEL: Some prisoners prefer to remain in prison, especially if they couldn't go on living there the way -- the life that they had, because they didn't know what to do in the morning and evening. Somebody tells them what to do. Maybe as a people -- but, again, I think every people is worthy of its liberation.
DOBBS: Oh, absolutely.
WIESEL: Every people deserves to be treated with dignity, naturally. But there are certain exceptions in moments, but no more than that. In moments. I would have expected, let's say, the Iraqis -- and I feel sorry for every Iraqi dead, I hope you understand that. I'm sure you do...
DOBBS: We all do.
WIESEL: ... especially the children. But one thing is clear, what did they do with their first moments of freedom? I tell you, I think of myself. And I don't make any comparisons. When I was liberated, believe me, my generation didn't do looting. We didn't loot.
The first days, we were actually thinking, of course, in our sadness, you know, prayers for what to do as free persons. And we surely did not -- we didn't become avengers. There was no vengeance. There was no hatred.
They were -- (UNINTELLIGIBLE) then, of course, clear-minded. We wanted to understand what was happening to us. And this is here too. I think from time to time now, we should start every program, one minute, say, What does it all mean, what does it mean?
DOBBS: And for the states around Iraq what does it mean? WIESEL: Well, first of all, the states should know that it's possible, the people should know that it's possible to get rid of dictators. This is the greatest thing that we have done now. Very fast, at a cost, of course. Our own soldiers were killed, our officers bravely fought and died.
But we can. It's possible to overturn history, for certain people who live almost outside of history, except in a history of slavery, because there was slavery, their fear made them into slaves. And that is good, that we showed them it's possible, trust us. And I think America deserves to be trusted.
DOBBS: I couldn't agree more. And even if I didn't agree, I probably wouldn't bring it up with Elie Wiesel. Elie, good to have you with us. Thank you.
Coming up next here, investigators in California are trying to determine whether remains found off San Francisco Bay are those of Laci Peterson and her baby. They're planning to hold a news conference shortly. We'll be going live to California for a report.
Also, the Pentagon today released more details on the technology used to help rescue Private First Class Jessica Lynch in Iraq. Barbara Starr will have that dramatic story.
All of that and more still ahead. Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: New details tonight about the remarkable rescue of Jessica Lynch. The success of that operation owes much to an Iraqi who risked his life to gather vital intelligence.
Pentagon correspondent Barbara Starr has the story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): CNN has learned that just hours before Private First Class Jessica Lynch was rescued by special forces, the CIA sent a trusted Iraqi operative already on the agency payroll into the hospital with a secret video camera provided by the Pentagon.
His mission, to tape the building's interiors, critical information for planning the daring raid, a rescue the team would then tape themselves as it unfolded.
In the 72 hours before the April 1 rescue, the U.S. intelligence community began to hear whispers of Jessica Lynch's location. At least two enemy prisoners of war offered some information indicating she had been at another location in Nasiriya. But none of that could be verified.
Then a local Iraqi man informed nearby Marines that Jessica Lynch was at the hospital. His information needed to be verified. But the CIA and the military were already working frantically on a number of leads, all pointing to the hospital in Nasiriya. The Defense Intelligence Agency obtained hospital blueprints for the commando team.
It was then decided to risk sending in the Iraqi operative with a hidden video camera.
The rescue team was actually a group of special forces formed to hunt and capture regime leaders. They were diverted to this mission. It was Navy SEALs that went into the hospital, while Army Rangers provided outside security, and the Marines staged a diversion.
At the same time, Air Force special forces were waiting outside to take Jessica Lynch to safety.
(on camera): The mission went off without a hitch. Indeed, by the time the special forces team got there, most Iraqi fighters had deserted the hospital, and the role of the CIA operative would remain hidden until now.
Barbara Starr, CNN, the Pentagon.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Coming up next, a possible break in the case of the missing California woman Laci Peterson. Authorities plan to hold a news conference within the hour. We'll be going live to that here on CNN. Paul Vercammen will have the report for us. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The coroner examining the remains of two bodies recovered near San Francisco Bay yesterday was unable to determine the cause of death. Police are now considering the possibility that the remains are those of Laci Peterson and her unborn child. Peterson disappeared on Christmas Eve of last year.
Paul Vercammen joins me now from Martinez, California, with the latest for us -- Paul.
PAUL VERCAMMEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, one thing that the coroner has been able to determine is that the skeletal remains are those of, one, an adult female, and two, the remains of a almost full- term baby boy.
And, of course, this is significant, because Laci Peterson, when she disappeared from her Modesto home, was seven and a half months' pregnant. That was on Christmas Eve.
Her husband, Scott, at the time, said that he was fishing in the Berkeley Marina.
Now, in a strange twist on all of this, just yesterday, separate from the skeletal remains I alluded to earlier, a man hiking near the Berkeley Marina found a bone, and they are now looking at that as another possible lead in this case.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JIMMY LEE, CONTRA COSTA COUNTY SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT SPOKESMAN: This person came across the bone at the shore. He brought it home and contacted the authorities, and we took possession of it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you're trying to connect it to the other (UNINTELLIGIBLE) that bone?
LEE: Well, we're trying to find out if it's a human bone, and whether or not it is related to the others.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VERCAMMEN: And yet another reason why that bone could be a key link, there are reports that have surfaced that in terms of the female remains that were found, the skeleton was not completely intact.
Now, this case is also taking on a rather, we should say, almost a TV episodic forensic pathology angle, because they're going to bring in an expert on what's called alluviating decay. And basically this person is going to come in here and look at the body. This is in the damage aspect of it.
And they say that these experts will be able to tell how long the body had been in there, and if the remains of the almost full-term baby boy were inside the female's remains at the time of death.
Also, the coroner could know right now, but is not saying, if there was some sort of trauma to either of these skeletons, for example, if they could see the bone compromised in some way, they could tell if there had been a stabbing or a shooting.
We may learn a lot more on this in just 15 minutes. That's because Modesto police have scheduled a news conference. And while they may not say much at all, they could also drop some major bombshells, Lou.
Reporting live from Martinez, California, I'm Paul Vercammen, now back to you.
DOBBS: Paul, let me ask you, if I may, quickly, are we expecting -- is there any reason for us to expect that there would be the ability to identify those remains as a result of these autopsies this afternoon?
VERCAMMEN: It sounds like all of this will be too quick, and it seems underlying all this is, there could be an absence of dental records. That's particularly important for the adult female remains. So now they're going to have to turn to DNA, and that's why they're calling in these experts. Some DNA testing can be very quick, but sometimes it can take up to weeks, even more, Lou.
DOBBS: OK. Paul Vercammen, thank you very much.
Well, as Paul just reported, the Modesto, California, Police Department will be holding a news conference just a few minutes from now, and CNN, of course, will be carrying that news conference live. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Taking a look now at your thoughts, Mike LaMontia of Nebraska wrote in to say, "Mr. Dobbs, in these days of uncertainty in this world of money and morning quarterbacks everywhere, it's a royal treat to hear your frank and logical commentary. Thank you for making my day a bit easier to cope with."
And thank you, Mike, for the same reasons.
Stuart Wolfe of Florida wrote in to say, "I don't know how to react to your show. You're such an alarmist. You are the best propaganda minister in the court-appointed dictator Bush regime."
Thanks, but I have a job.
Ed Hayes of Ohio writes to say, "I would like to express my admiration for Mr. Dobbs' steadfast nature as it pertains to business, politics, patriotism. You're a credit to journalism.
Ed, thank you very much. I like you a lot better than Stuart.
And finally, Dave Moore of Connecticut wrote to say, "Your coverage of the war has been nothing short of completely irresponsible. Now it seems like you can't wait to see a war with Syria."
No, I just can't wait to see the government of Syria behave responsibly.
I'm Lou Dobbs. For all of us here, we thank you for joining us. Paula Zahn is coming up next. She'll be followed by Larry King.
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