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CNN Live Today

Interview With Author Andrew Coburn

Aired April 17, 2003 - 12:06   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: And as we have reported, Saddam Hussein's half-brother, Barzan Ibrahim al-Tikriti is now in coalition custody, captured overnight in Baghdad. Who is he and how close is he -- or, at least, was he to Saddam Hussein?
Joining me now to talk about that, Andrew Coburn. He is the author of the important book, "Out of the Ashes: the Resurrection of Saddam Hussein" -- Andrew, thanks so much for joining us. What about this half-brother? How important -- how big a fish is he?

ANDREW COBURN, AUTHOR, "OUT OF THE ASHES": Well, in the past, he's been a very big fish. He was in charge of the secret police in Saddam's early years in power, when he was like very much Saddam's right-hand man in terms of rounding up who needed to be rounded up, torturing to death people who needed that.

He and his -- the other half-brothers, they kind of fell from favor -- or fell from the limelight after the mother died in 1982. And they kind of -- they certainly weren't sent back to the projects or anything, but they were -- they were like in the background then for quite a long time through the rest of the '80s, when other family members at that court, came to the fore.

And then, after the Gulf War, (UNINTELLIGIBLE), the family came back again. But Barzan, interestingly, he was out of town. He was in Geneva, the Iraqi ambassador to the U.N. in Geneva. Now, a lot of people believe that his real job was to look after the money. So I think the important, interesting questions to get out of Barzan is, where is the money?

BLITZER: And that was well known at the time, throughout the '90s, that he was the guy, the money man moving stuff around, also doing a lot of intelligence, espionage work for the Iraqi regime.

COBURN: Well, that is right. And he was often thought, though, as though he was like the moderate guy in the family. I mean the U.S. was talking to him covertly in the '90s. The CIA was having conversations with Barzan, and people, a lot of people expected him to actually defect or hoped he would defect, when there seemed a prospect of that. Instead, he went back to Iraq, I think in '98, and he stayed there pretty quietly ever since. But he's a man with a lot of secrets.

BLITZER: So presumably now that he's in U.S., coalition custody, he's going to talk?

COBURN: Presumably, yes. I mean -- it's an open question how much he -- how much inside the loop he's been in the last -- in the most recent period, because that was a very tight group lately. It was just Saddam and his sons, and the cousin, the horrible cousin Ali Hasan al-Majid, were like the inner core, and it's not clear to me how much Barzan will know about the very latest, real-time stuff, but he still knows a huge amount that we want to know about.

BLITZER: And there was another half-brother that was taken the other day, and...

COBURN: Watban. Yes.

BLITZER: ... so there is movement on that front. Presumably, they're going to slowly but surely find out some of the great mysteries, the secrets of Saddam Hussein, but the great mystery, of course, right now is where is Saddam Hussein.

COBURN: Exactly. Patently, no one knows. He was seen outside that mosque in Baghdad, and now he's disappeared.

BLITZER: Do you have a sense right now that Saddam Hussein, if he's alive, is in Iraq or would have escaped to another country?

COBURN: He also said I was born in Iraq, I will die in Iraq. I think for his self-image and the way he wants to go down in history, he does not want to be seen as a fugitive. Furthermore, I think if he went to Syria or Iran, they'd kill him immediately. They do not want him around.

BLITZER: If he's alive, he's some place in Iraq?

COBURN: Exactly.

BLITZER: But it's a big country and all that, but under U.S. and coalition control, they're going to find him if he's alive.

COBURN: Eventually, but he's doing -- he'll be doing the best he can to stay alive and free, or if he's going to die, he'll want to do it in kind of a dignified way.

BLITZER: There's no doubt -- there's no doubt that top leaders in the Republican Guard, the special Republican Guard, believe he's dead, and that's why they basically didn't fight.

COBURN: That seems to be the case. They either believe he was dead or they believe that he couldn't get them anymore. He ruled Iraq by fear. That is how he did it, but atrocities and publicizing atrocities, and the feeling that whatever you did, he was watching, and would come and get you. That is how he ran the place. The moment that fear disappeared, then his control was gone.

BLITZER: Once they were not getting messages, command and control messages from him or his top leadership, people just assumed the worst, or the best...

COBURN: The best.

BLITZER: ... depending on your perspective, that he's gone, and they could surrender and nobody would be able to punish them.

COBURN: That is right. Exactly.

BLITZER: And that was the whole thing. Now what about the other great unresolved issue from this war, where the weapons of mass destruction might be. Do you have a sense on what -- something about that?

COBURN: Well, we may be confronting the awful possibility that there weren't any to begin with. I mean, we did have evidence that they didn't exist, as well as evidence they did. I think, if we do find anything, it will turn out to be much less than people presume. It will be like sort of rather -- sort of unimpressive laboratory programs. If there had been real weapons of mass destruction, he would have used them, and he didn't. He certainly wouldn't have sent them to Syria. Because why you've gone to all that trouble to make them. Why give it away if you are not going to use them yourself? So, I think, we may be looking for...

BLITZER: But the argument that he might have sent them to Syria is the same argument that -- why he sent his war planes to Iran in the middle of the first gulf war. He might get them back. He might not get them back, but he knows if he kept them there, they were going to be destroyed.

COBURN: Yes, but the first gulf war wasn't a war for his survival. This one was.

BLITZER: So that is the basic difference this time as opposed to the last one.

COBURN: Exactly.

BLITZER: Andrew Coburn, as usual, thanks very much.

COBURN: You are welcome.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com







Aired April 17, 2003 - 12:06   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: And as we have reported, Saddam Hussein's half-brother, Barzan Ibrahim al-Tikriti is now in coalition custody, captured overnight in Baghdad. Who is he and how close is he -- or, at least, was he to Saddam Hussein?
Joining me now to talk about that, Andrew Coburn. He is the author of the important book, "Out of the Ashes: the Resurrection of Saddam Hussein" -- Andrew, thanks so much for joining us. What about this half-brother? How important -- how big a fish is he?

ANDREW COBURN, AUTHOR, "OUT OF THE ASHES": Well, in the past, he's been a very big fish. He was in charge of the secret police in Saddam's early years in power, when he was like very much Saddam's right-hand man in terms of rounding up who needed to be rounded up, torturing to death people who needed that.

He and his -- the other half-brothers, they kind of fell from favor -- or fell from the limelight after the mother died in 1982. And they kind of -- they certainly weren't sent back to the projects or anything, but they were -- they were like in the background then for quite a long time through the rest of the '80s, when other family members at that court, came to the fore.

And then, after the Gulf War, (UNINTELLIGIBLE), the family came back again. But Barzan, interestingly, he was out of town. He was in Geneva, the Iraqi ambassador to the U.N. in Geneva. Now, a lot of people believe that his real job was to look after the money. So I think the important, interesting questions to get out of Barzan is, where is the money?

BLITZER: And that was well known at the time, throughout the '90s, that he was the guy, the money man moving stuff around, also doing a lot of intelligence, espionage work for the Iraqi regime.

COBURN: Well, that is right. And he was often thought, though, as though he was like the moderate guy in the family. I mean the U.S. was talking to him covertly in the '90s. The CIA was having conversations with Barzan, and people, a lot of people expected him to actually defect or hoped he would defect, when there seemed a prospect of that. Instead, he went back to Iraq, I think in '98, and he stayed there pretty quietly ever since. But he's a man with a lot of secrets.

BLITZER: So presumably now that he's in U.S., coalition custody, he's going to talk?

COBURN: Presumably, yes. I mean -- it's an open question how much he -- how much inside the loop he's been in the last -- in the most recent period, because that was a very tight group lately. It was just Saddam and his sons, and the cousin, the horrible cousin Ali Hasan al-Majid, were like the inner core, and it's not clear to me how much Barzan will know about the very latest, real-time stuff, but he still knows a huge amount that we want to know about.

BLITZER: And there was another half-brother that was taken the other day, and...

COBURN: Watban. Yes.

BLITZER: ... so there is movement on that front. Presumably, they're going to slowly but surely find out some of the great mysteries, the secrets of Saddam Hussein, but the great mystery, of course, right now is where is Saddam Hussein.

COBURN: Exactly. Patently, no one knows. He was seen outside that mosque in Baghdad, and now he's disappeared.

BLITZER: Do you have a sense right now that Saddam Hussein, if he's alive, is in Iraq or would have escaped to another country?

COBURN: He also said I was born in Iraq, I will die in Iraq. I think for his self-image and the way he wants to go down in history, he does not want to be seen as a fugitive. Furthermore, I think if he went to Syria or Iran, they'd kill him immediately. They do not want him around.

BLITZER: If he's alive, he's some place in Iraq?

COBURN: Exactly.

BLITZER: But it's a big country and all that, but under U.S. and coalition control, they're going to find him if he's alive.

COBURN: Eventually, but he's doing -- he'll be doing the best he can to stay alive and free, or if he's going to die, he'll want to do it in kind of a dignified way.

BLITZER: There's no doubt -- there's no doubt that top leaders in the Republican Guard, the special Republican Guard, believe he's dead, and that's why they basically didn't fight.

COBURN: That seems to be the case. They either believe he was dead or they believe that he couldn't get them anymore. He ruled Iraq by fear. That is how he did it, but atrocities and publicizing atrocities, and the feeling that whatever you did, he was watching, and would come and get you. That is how he ran the place. The moment that fear disappeared, then his control was gone.

BLITZER: Once they were not getting messages, command and control messages from him or his top leadership, people just assumed the worst, or the best...

COBURN: The best.

BLITZER: ... depending on your perspective, that he's gone, and they could surrender and nobody would be able to punish them.

COBURN: That is right. Exactly.

BLITZER: And that was the whole thing. Now what about the other great unresolved issue from this war, where the weapons of mass destruction might be. Do you have a sense on what -- something about that?

COBURN: Well, we may be confronting the awful possibility that there weren't any to begin with. I mean, we did have evidence that they didn't exist, as well as evidence they did. I think, if we do find anything, it will turn out to be much less than people presume. It will be like sort of rather -- sort of unimpressive laboratory programs. If there had been real weapons of mass destruction, he would have used them, and he didn't. He certainly wouldn't have sent them to Syria. Because why you've gone to all that trouble to make them. Why give it away if you are not going to use them yourself? So, I think, we may be looking for...

BLITZER: But the argument that he might have sent them to Syria is the same argument that -- why he sent his war planes to Iran in the middle of the first gulf war. He might get them back. He might not get them back, but he knows if he kept them there, they were going to be destroyed.

COBURN: Yes, but the first gulf war wasn't a war for his survival. This one was.

BLITZER: So that is the basic difference this time as opposed to the last one.

COBURN: Exactly.

BLITZER: Andrew Coburn, as usual, thanks very much.

COBURN: You are welcome.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com