Return to Transcripts main page
CNN Live Today
Iraqi National Museum Looted After Baghdad Fell
Aired April 17, 2003 - 12:34 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: There are deadly tensions in the northern Iraqi town of Mosul. U.S. Troops are arriving as coalition forces struggle for control of that important city in the northern part of the country.
CNN's Ben Wedeman is joining us now from the nearby town of Irbil, and he has much more.
Ben, what's the latest?
BEN WEDEMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, the situation in Mosul is till very tense, very nervous. There were no incidents reported there today, but one quiet day does not, Wolf, a peace make.
Now more American troops are headed in the direction of that city, a city that is described by coalition officials as uncertain, uncertain because a variety of incidents have occurred since the beginning of the week that have left anywhere between 10 and 17 people dead and dozens more wounded.
Now Mosul is a stronghold of Arab nationalist sentiment. It is also a city where there is still a good deal of support for Saddam Hussein. It's also the hometown of many senior officials in the Iraqi army. Now Kurdish spokesmen said today that they believe that there are some -- still some senior members of the Iraqi leadership in Mosul itself.
Now what is certain at this point is that much of the western or Arab part of Mosul is not under American control. It's essentially the domain of local militias and remnants of the Iraqi army and Fedayeen Saddam -- Wolf.
BLITZER: The bottom line in Mosul, it's going to take approximately how long, do military experts suggest over there in the northern part of Iraq and Irbil, Mosul, Kirkuk, all those strategically important towns, to get back to some sort of normal life. What do they estimate?
WEDEMAN: Well, the American officials we spoke to really have no idea at this point. They are taking a slow, slow approach, gradually increasing the number of patrols. They will try to go around the city, increasing the number of troops there.
Mosul really is the most unstable city, probably in all of Iraq, but definitely in northern Iraq. Irbil, for instance, is a city that's been spared any of the instability we've seen throughout the rest of the country. That is because there is an administration here. There is essentially a Kurdish government.
Mosul is the exact opposite. There's really no authority there. Several dozen former police from the administration of Saddam Hussein have been brought in by the Americans to try to create some sort of order, some sort of peace in the city, but several of those policemen were wounded in these incidents in which the U.S. forces fired upon people in Mosul during these incidents in which there was also fire in the other direction as well.
So there is some unhappiness among those police who are supposed to be keeping the peace, some unhappiness against the Americans. So really, the pieces of the puzzle are spread all over that city, and there's no sign at this point of them coming together -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Ben Wedeman in the northern part of Iraq, reporting for us. Ben, thanks very much.
Looting, of course, has been a serious problem throughout all of Iraq. It's also robbed Iraq of its vast cultural heritage. Now the United Nations cultural agency is trying to make sure stolen artifacts aren't sold on the black market around the world.
Joining me now from Paris, the UNESCO director General Koichiro Matsuura. Thanks so much for joining us.
Sir, first of all, how big of a problem has this been, the looting of the cultural, the historic, the antiquity treasures of Iraq?
KOICHIRO MATSUURA, DIRECTOR GENERAL, UNESCO: Well, it is very, very -- Iraq is the cradle of civilization. Therefore, in Iraq, there exist number of important cultural sites and number of museums. The most important one is the Baghdad National Museum that we have been unfortunately looted. It houses more than 150, 000 cultural goods, very important cultural goods, and many of them have been looted.
BLITZER: We heard, though, that some of the most precious antiquities, some of the most precious treasures were in fact protected before the war, fearing this worst-case scenario and that they are in good shape. Do you have a sense of how much is OK and how much has basically been looted?
MATSUURA: Well, It is very difficult to assess. We were at one point given to understand the important cultural treasures had been kept in a safe place, but we don't know. Therefore, we would like to send fact-finding missions (UNINTELLIGIBLE) experts very rapidly to assess what has taken place.
BLITZER: You suggested at the UNESCO meeting yesterday that you had warned U.S. military, coalition forces to take steps to protect those artifacts, those historic treasures before the war, but apparently they didn't. What exactly was the nature of your suggestion to the U.S. and coalition military in advance of the war?
MATSUURA: We communicated to the State Department a list of important cultural sites, and also a list of important (UNINTELLIGIBLE), and including the Baghdad National Museum. But I presume there was a power vacuum between the fall of the former regime of Saddam Hussein and the establishment of the new authority. Therefore, then they took advantage of that, in the power vacuum, which I regret.
BLITZER: But you have steps under way right now, sir, to stop the international sale of any looted artifacts? Can you do that?
MATSUURA: Yes, we'd like to do it. But we can do it only with the cooperation of a number of important governments. First, Iraq itself, under the authority of occupying forces, must try to stop the exportation of such cultural goods. Secondly, neighboring countries must stop importing, if possible, confiscate, that kind of goods at their borders. Thirdly, important that developed nations, which are markets for such cultural goods, should stop importing those cultural goods.
Therefore, we are making a strong appeal to those governments to take the necessary measures to present the sale of such cultural goods.
BLITZER: One final question, sir, before I let you go. There was some suggestion that the looting at the museums was not necessarily done randomly by individuals just running in stealing things, but was a well orchestrated, choreographed, if you will, planned out event by organized criminals, who knew precisely what was valuable, what wasn't valuable. They had a plan in the works perhaps even before the war. Can you confirm that for us?
MATSUURA: Yes, that is our assessment, too. What they did take was important treasures, leaving behind copies. They are well prepared, well organized bandits, whose intentions must be to sell these culture goods to the black market abroad. Therefore, we have to prevent them.
BLITZER: Koichiro Matsuura, Thank you so much for your joining us, the director general of UNESCO, live from Paris, a very, very disturbing account. Appreciate it very much. Hope you can find those valuable treasures, those priceless treasure, for the people of Iraq, and indeed, for the people of the world.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired April 17, 2003 - 12:34 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: There are deadly tensions in the northern Iraqi town of Mosul. U.S. Troops are arriving as coalition forces struggle for control of that important city in the northern part of the country.
CNN's Ben Wedeman is joining us now from the nearby town of Irbil, and he has much more.
Ben, what's the latest?
BEN WEDEMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, the situation in Mosul is till very tense, very nervous. There were no incidents reported there today, but one quiet day does not, Wolf, a peace make.
Now more American troops are headed in the direction of that city, a city that is described by coalition officials as uncertain, uncertain because a variety of incidents have occurred since the beginning of the week that have left anywhere between 10 and 17 people dead and dozens more wounded.
Now Mosul is a stronghold of Arab nationalist sentiment. It is also a city where there is still a good deal of support for Saddam Hussein. It's also the hometown of many senior officials in the Iraqi army. Now Kurdish spokesmen said today that they believe that there are some -- still some senior members of the Iraqi leadership in Mosul itself.
Now what is certain at this point is that much of the western or Arab part of Mosul is not under American control. It's essentially the domain of local militias and remnants of the Iraqi army and Fedayeen Saddam -- Wolf.
BLITZER: The bottom line in Mosul, it's going to take approximately how long, do military experts suggest over there in the northern part of Iraq and Irbil, Mosul, Kirkuk, all those strategically important towns, to get back to some sort of normal life. What do they estimate?
WEDEMAN: Well, the American officials we spoke to really have no idea at this point. They are taking a slow, slow approach, gradually increasing the number of patrols. They will try to go around the city, increasing the number of troops there.
Mosul really is the most unstable city, probably in all of Iraq, but definitely in northern Iraq. Irbil, for instance, is a city that's been spared any of the instability we've seen throughout the rest of the country. That is because there is an administration here. There is essentially a Kurdish government.
Mosul is the exact opposite. There's really no authority there. Several dozen former police from the administration of Saddam Hussein have been brought in by the Americans to try to create some sort of order, some sort of peace in the city, but several of those policemen were wounded in these incidents in which the U.S. forces fired upon people in Mosul during these incidents in which there was also fire in the other direction as well.
So there is some unhappiness among those police who are supposed to be keeping the peace, some unhappiness against the Americans. So really, the pieces of the puzzle are spread all over that city, and there's no sign at this point of them coming together -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Ben Wedeman in the northern part of Iraq, reporting for us. Ben, thanks very much.
Looting, of course, has been a serious problem throughout all of Iraq. It's also robbed Iraq of its vast cultural heritage. Now the United Nations cultural agency is trying to make sure stolen artifacts aren't sold on the black market around the world.
Joining me now from Paris, the UNESCO director General Koichiro Matsuura. Thanks so much for joining us.
Sir, first of all, how big of a problem has this been, the looting of the cultural, the historic, the antiquity treasures of Iraq?
KOICHIRO MATSUURA, DIRECTOR GENERAL, UNESCO: Well, it is very, very -- Iraq is the cradle of civilization. Therefore, in Iraq, there exist number of important cultural sites and number of museums. The most important one is the Baghdad National Museum that we have been unfortunately looted. It houses more than 150, 000 cultural goods, very important cultural goods, and many of them have been looted.
BLITZER: We heard, though, that some of the most precious antiquities, some of the most precious treasures were in fact protected before the war, fearing this worst-case scenario and that they are in good shape. Do you have a sense of how much is OK and how much has basically been looted?
MATSUURA: Well, It is very difficult to assess. We were at one point given to understand the important cultural treasures had been kept in a safe place, but we don't know. Therefore, we would like to send fact-finding missions (UNINTELLIGIBLE) experts very rapidly to assess what has taken place.
BLITZER: You suggested at the UNESCO meeting yesterday that you had warned U.S. military, coalition forces to take steps to protect those artifacts, those historic treasures before the war, but apparently they didn't. What exactly was the nature of your suggestion to the U.S. and coalition military in advance of the war?
MATSUURA: We communicated to the State Department a list of important cultural sites, and also a list of important (UNINTELLIGIBLE), and including the Baghdad National Museum. But I presume there was a power vacuum between the fall of the former regime of Saddam Hussein and the establishment of the new authority. Therefore, then they took advantage of that, in the power vacuum, which I regret.
BLITZER: But you have steps under way right now, sir, to stop the international sale of any looted artifacts? Can you do that?
MATSUURA: Yes, we'd like to do it. But we can do it only with the cooperation of a number of important governments. First, Iraq itself, under the authority of occupying forces, must try to stop the exportation of such cultural goods. Secondly, neighboring countries must stop importing, if possible, confiscate, that kind of goods at their borders. Thirdly, important that developed nations, which are markets for such cultural goods, should stop importing those cultural goods.
Therefore, we are making a strong appeal to those governments to take the necessary measures to present the sale of such cultural goods.
BLITZER: One final question, sir, before I let you go. There was some suggestion that the looting at the museums was not necessarily done randomly by individuals just running in stealing things, but was a well orchestrated, choreographed, if you will, planned out event by organized criminals, who knew precisely what was valuable, what wasn't valuable. They had a plan in the works perhaps even before the war. Can you confirm that for us?
MATSUURA: Yes, that is our assessment, too. What they did take was important treasures, leaving behind copies. They are well prepared, well organized bandits, whose intentions must be to sell these culture goods to the black market abroad. Therefore, we have to prevent them.
BLITZER: Koichiro Matsuura, Thank you so much for your joining us, the director general of UNESCO, live from Paris, a very, very disturbing account. Appreciate it very much. Hope you can find those valuable treasures, those priceless treasure, for the people of Iraq, and indeed, for the people of the world.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
