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American Morning

Abu Dhabi Airs Take of Saddam

Aired April 18, 2003 - 09:04   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Want to show this videotape that we're getting in through Abu Dhabi Television a short time ago, we're poring over there, trying to examine them as best we can right now.
And as we roll the tape, want to bring in again our guest from Abu Dhabi Television. He is their news anchor, Jasim al-Azzawi. Back with us here, live at that the United Arab Emirates. Not sure if you have learned more from your folks as to the whereabouts of these pictures, and also how you obtained them, but as much as you can tell us right now, Jasim, what are you finding out?

JASIM AL-AZZAWI, ABU DHABI TELEVISION: At the risk of repeating myself, the available information to me is that these are genuine pictures. We acquired them today. They were shot in the Azamiyah district on April 9, and we just got them now. We put them on air as soon as possible, and there is no other explanation why -- why it was held to this day. We got them today, that's all.

HEMMER: Jasim, can you tell us how you acquired them?

AL-AZZAWI: I'm not sure whether I'm at liberty to tell you, to be honest with you. I just checked with our director, and basically he told us we acquired them from a very genuine source in Iraq. That's the extent I can go into it. Now, mechanism of acquisition...

(CROSSTALK)

HEMMER: Yes, I -- I apologize, there is an interruption on the satellite, and I apologize for that. But if you can tell us a bit more. Did you know they were out there prior to the broadcast today?

AL-AZZAWI: We always suspected because of the many sightings of Saddam Hussein that somebody, somehow, somewhere would shoot a picture of him, would shoot a video. And we went out of our way to make sure that that tape will fall into our hands and, sure enough, we acquired it today and as soon as we got it, we put it on air. So you can ascertain how we got it.

HEMMER: You say there have been many sightings of Saddam Hussein. How many and where?

AL-AZZAWI: Well, if you read the "Washington Post" of two days ago, they are talking about many, many sightings, specifically in this area, in the Azamiyah district. Our correspondent, our bureau chief in Baghdad, telling us that many people are coming to the bureau and say, we have seen Saddam today. We have seen him yesterday. He was with his Qusay, he was with his presidential adviser. And there has been many, many elements and many sources confirming the sighting of Saddam Hussein.

Initially, we did not put much credence into it, but as a function of accumulations of these reports, we are beginning to believe that the man was not dead, he was not killed, in that Mansour restaurant, and he's somewhere in Baghdad.

HEMMER: Jasim, I don't know what you're hearing based on your sources on the ground in Baghdad, but if he is there, if he is alive, if he is hiding again in the Iraqi capital, maybe even Tikrit to the north about a hundred miles, is there thinking that he is teasing the U.S. forces, that he is tempting them, or do you have a fair read on that based on what you're hearing on the ground?

AL-AZZAWI: Initially and to start with, he wouldn't be in Tikrit. Tikrit is a very, very small town, and he would be routed out immediately and found and arrested immediately. Baghdad, like we keep saying, it's 5 and a half million people. It is almost as big as L.A. in its dimensions. There has been many districts -- it is almost warrens (ph) and alleys and hideaways, and given the history of Saddam Hussein and knowing that the coalitions are coming after him, he would have invested a tremendous amount of time and resources in establishing safe havens. A lot of people talk about bunkers and hideaways. I don't know much -- put much credence into it, perhaps the CIA would know. But he's not trying to tease the United States. He's not trying to say, catch me if you can. He just trying to be visible, and in a very organized and formatted way.

HEMMER: Jasim, thank you. The Abu Dhabi broadcaster there from the United Arab Emirates looking at this tape along with us. They are the network that says, again, this tape is legit, taken on the 9th of April.

Rula Amin standing by live at the Palestine Hotel in Baghdad, and joins us now for reaction from there -- what is happening, and what is being said at this point, Rula? Good afternoon.

RULA AMIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good afternoon, Bill. Well, I have to tell you, most Iraqis have not seen this tape yet because they don't have power, and they can't watch television. But looking at this tape, again, we're facing the same dilemma, is this Saddam Hussein? Was this really shot on April 9? And if he -- it is indeed both, the possibilities, is where is he now, and what he is up to?

This is a question that many residents here in Baghdad are thinking about, because the fact that he disappeared so quickly made them wonder what happened. Because, see, for weeks and months he had this strong rhetoric that he was going to show the Americans a lesson, he was going to fight, it was going to be a fight that nobody had heard of.

And suddenly, overnight, the troops would pulled from the streets and he disappeared. So there are rumors -- many rumors here about why did this happen, and where is he?

We have been seeing people approaching journalists, coming to the Palestine Hotel, telling them how they saw Saddam Hussein on such and such a date, how they saw him running away in a car after a missile hit certain compounds.

Now, how do we verify this information? It's very hard. We do know that many people are coming up saying that they saw him at certain places. But many of them may be just imagining. It may be his doubles. It may be other people, and just because they're thinking of the subject so much, they're starting to imagine things. But we do know that here in Baghdad, the residents are very curious to know where is he. Is he still in Baghdad, or did he flee the country, and why did he not fight? Was it that he was betrayed by his generals, or did he make a deal in order to save himself, save his sons and his aides, and save the Americans a fight in Baghdad?

All these are questions on the mind of every Iraqi -- Bill.

HEMMER: Rula, thanks. Rula Amin in Baghdad. Again, we'll come back to you in a moment, Rula. Want to get more information what you're hearing on the ground, and also about this neighborhood that's described to us where this videotape is said to be originating, but for more, here is Heidi now -- Heidi.

HEIDI COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: U.S. officials will undoubtedly be studying the latest video showing Saddam Hussein, looking for clues to determine the actual date of the tape and whether it is, in fact, the former leader of Iraq. From Washington, with more on this new development and its significance, CNN Analyst Kenneth Pollack of the Brookings Institution's Saban Center. Welcome to you once again -- Ken.

KENNETH POLLACK, CNN ANALYST: Thanks, Heidi.

COLLINS: I want to ask you -- we just heard from Abu Dhabi Television and the television anchor there, Jasim Al-Azzawi who says Saddam is not -- if, in fact, this is him, he is not teasing or taunting the U.S. by being photographed or being filmed, if you will. Why would he do this? What would his motive be?

POLLACK: Well, I think, Heidi, first of all, I would agree with Jasim. I don't think Saddam is teasing the United States. I don't think that that is necessarily a motive for him. I think much more important for him is to demonstrate to his followers both inside of Iraq and he believes outside of Iraq that he is still alive.

The most important thing for Saddam right now is to try to regroup his strength, to convince his loyalists to stay in the fight, to continue to resist the Americans -- and also, and this is an important point, that Rula was just making. He's also got to convince the people of Iraq that he's not out. He wants them to remain afraid that he is going to come back to power. He wants them not to embrace the Americans too openly. He wants them to continue those who are resisting to continue to resist.

COLLINS: So does he want the people to be afraid of him, or does he want them to fight for him? Because I'm thinking if you say they see their leader, they still have a leader to follow, hopefully in his mind, that will make the people fight for him. Which do you think it is? POLLACK: I think it's both. I think that he wants the vast majority of the Iraqi people, the people who have been quiescent for the last 34 years because they fear him, to remain fearful, to remain scared in the belief that Saddam will be able to make a comeback, and for his loyalists, the people who really do like him, who have benefited from his rule, who have been willing to fight for him, he wants them to continue fighting.

Saddam is really on the ropes right now. He's almost out for the count, and he has got to find a way to regroup some kind of strength around himself. He's got to put up some kind of resistance for the Americans, and right now, just showing that he is still alive and that there are people in Iraq who still support him is about the best he can do.

COLLINS: And does this video, perhaps, put the Pentagon on the ropes, as you say, as well? We've heard many times from the Pentagon that it doesn't really matter to them whether or not Saddam Hussein is caught. When we see video like this, if, in fact, it is verified, does that change the urgency or the need to catch him?

POLLACK: Yes, I think it certainly does put some additional pressure on the Pentagon. And again, I think the Pentagon is right in saying that Saddam Hussein is no longer a threat to the Iraqi people, to the rest of the world, to the United States. Pick any country you want to. With that said, it is still important to remember that as long as Saddam Hussein is out there, the United States is not going to be finished with this war, at least in the sense that as long as Saddam is out there, there may be loyalists who are willing to fight for him, and there may be Iraqis who are too fearful to actually begin the process of reconstruction, and for that reason, I think it will be important for the U.S. to make a greater effort to go after him, but it is important to distinguish between the potential problems that Saddam can cause in this sense of just being out there and being able to stir up some support, and the much bigger problems that he would cause if he were actually in power in many some way.

COLLINS: Ken, last question for you. We don't know exactly where these tapes came from. When he were talking with the television anchor at Abu Dhabi, he felt like he shouldn't really say exactly where they came from. What is your sense on that? Does that tell you anything?

POLLACK: Well, it's my guess that this did come from a sort of a trusted emissary, and that may also be another reason why it took so long for these tapes to get out, why it took nine days for them to get out. They may have been filmed -- obviously filmed somewhere in Baghdad, smuggled out of the country, probably by courier, because that was probably the only way to do it. And so, chances are, the folks at Abu Dhabi TV don't want to give away who their sources are.

COLLINS: Exactly. All right. Ken Pollack, our CNN analyst, thank you so much -- Bill.

HEMMER: Heidi, you mentioned Jasim Al-Azzawi, Abu Dhabi Television back with us for a final time here. I'm not quite sure if you've learned more in the time that we left you there for about five minutes, but if you have, tell us. And also, want to know about the number of times in the past where Saddam Hussein has simply miscalculated, whether it's the Iran-Iraq war, whether it is the invasion of Kuwait in 1990, or whether or not it is standing up to the U.S. military in the previous conflict, and knowing each time he has met with a stone wall.

What is it that he sees right now, if he is still alive, if this tape is legit, as we have said, what is his future, and what is his calculation at this point?

AL-AZZAWI: Bill, the tape is genuine. Let me just comment on what Ken Pollack said, whether it was sent by an emissary or we smuggled it out of the country. We have several SNGs located in different parts of the country, and this was fed to us today. We received it just about -- maybe about 50 minutes. It is confirmed to us, and we got it from a very credible source. It is exclusive to us. As far as about Saddam, whether he's making -- he made miscalculations, that goes without saying.

His biggest problem, his biggest colossal wrong decision, when he invaded Iran. That was the war that begotten -- has begotten other wars. The Kuwaiti War in '91, as this last war, is just an extension of that colossal mistake that he did, and one after another, he was just trying to get out of it.

HEMMER: So what do you think the calculation for him is now?

AL-AZZAWI: Survival. He knows that the Americans are in Baghdad, but they will not be able to spare 50,000 to 60,000 soldiers day and night, tracking every single lead and every single house and questioning people.

Baghdad is a big, big district, and unless somebody very close to him betrays him, it is going to be a long time before he's caught. Now, how his brother Barzan was caught yesterday, or how his other half-brother Watban was caught just at the border with Syria, nobody can tell. But Saddam is a lot smarter than his two brothers. He is surrounded by his own son, he is surrounded by his adjutant, who would die for him. It is going to be a function of time, hard work, intelligence. There isn't much high technology could do right now. This is not an eavesdropping situation. This is where you have to follow day and night all those leads.

HEMMER: Jasim, thanks. Jasim Al-Azzawi, Abu Dhabi Television, the broadcaster there, United Arab Emirates with his take right now on what's being shown on his network around the world, no doubt. Jasim, thanks again for your perspective.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com







Aired April 18, 2003 - 09:04   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Want to show this videotape that we're getting in through Abu Dhabi Television a short time ago, we're poring over there, trying to examine them as best we can right now.
And as we roll the tape, want to bring in again our guest from Abu Dhabi Television. He is their news anchor, Jasim al-Azzawi. Back with us here, live at that the United Arab Emirates. Not sure if you have learned more from your folks as to the whereabouts of these pictures, and also how you obtained them, but as much as you can tell us right now, Jasim, what are you finding out?

JASIM AL-AZZAWI, ABU DHABI TELEVISION: At the risk of repeating myself, the available information to me is that these are genuine pictures. We acquired them today. They were shot in the Azamiyah district on April 9, and we just got them now. We put them on air as soon as possible, and there is no other explanation why -- why it was held to this day. We got them today, that's all.

HEMMER: Jasim, can you tell us how you acquired them?

AL-AZZAWI: I'm not sure whether I'm at liberty to tell you, to be honest with you. I just checked with our director, and basically he told us we acquired them from a very genuine source in Iraq. That's the extent I can go into it. Now, mechanism of acquisition...

(CROSSTALK)

HEMMER: Yes, I -- I apologize, there is an interruption on the satellite, and I apologize for that. But if you can tell us a bit more. Did you know they were out there prior to the broadcast today?

AL-AZZAWI: We always suspected because of the many sightings of Saddam Hussein that somebody, somehow, somewhere would shoot a picture of him, would shoot a video. And we went out of our way to make sure that that tape will fall into our hands and, sure enough, we acquired it today and as soon as we got it, we put it on air. So you can ascertain how we got it.

HEMMER: You say there have been many sightings of Saddam Hussein. How many and where?

AL-AZZAWI: Well, if you read the "Washington Post" of two days ago, they are talking about many, many sightings, specifically in this area, in the Azamiyah district. Our correspondent, our bureau chief in Baghdad, telling us that many people are coming to the bureau and say, we have seen Saddam today. We have seen him yesterday. He was with his Qusay, he was with his presidential adviser. And there has been many, many elements and many sources confirming the sighting of Saddam Hussein.

Initially, we did not put much credence into it, but as a function of accumulations of these reports, we are beginning to believe that the man was not dead, he was not killed, in that Mansour restaurant, and he's somewhere in Baghdad.

HEMMER: Jasim, I don't know what you're hearing based on your sources on the ground in Baghdad, but if he is there, if he is alive, if he is hiding again in the Iraqi capital, maybe even Tikrit to the north about a hundred miles, is there thinking that he is teasing the U.S. forces, that he is tempting them, or do you have a fair read on that based on what you're hearing on the ground?

AL-AZZAWI: Initially and to start with, he wouldn't be in Tikrit. Tikrit is a very, very small town, and he would be routed out immediately and found and arrested immediately. Baghdad, like we keep saying, it's 5 and a half million people. It is almost as big as L.A. in its dimensions. There has been many districts -- it is almost warrens (ph) and alleys and hideaways, and given the history of Saddam Hussein and knowing that the coalitions are coming after him, he would have invested a tremendous amount of time and resources in establishing safe havens. A lot of people talk about bunkers and hideaways. I don't know much -- put much credence into it, perhaps the CIA would know. But he's not trying to tease the United States. He's not trying to say, catch me if you can. He just trying to be visible, and in a very organized and formatted way.

HEMMER: Jasim, thank you. The Abu Dhabi broadcaster there from the United Arab Emirates looking at this tape along with us. They are the network that says, again, this tape is legit, taken on the 9th of April.

Rula Amin standing by live at the Palestine Hotel in Baghdad, and joins us now for reaction from there -- what is happening, and what is being said at this point, Rula? Good afternoon.

RULA AMIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good afternoon, Bill. Well, I have to tell you, most Iraqis have not seen this tape yet because they don't have power, and they can't watch television. But looking at this tape, again, we're facing the same dilemma, is this Saddam Hussein? Was this really shot on April 9? And if he -- it is indeed both, the possibilities, is where is he now, and what he is up to?

This is a question that many residents here in Baghdad are thinking about, because the fact that he disappeared so quickly made them wonder what happened. Because, see, for weeks and months he had this strong rhetoric that he was going to show the Americans a lesson, he was going to fight, it was going to be a fight that nobody had heard of.

And suddenly, overnight, the troops would pulled from the streets and he disappeared. So there are rumors -- many rumors here about why did this happen, and where is he?

We have been seeing people approaching journalists, coming to the Palestine Hotel, telling them how they saw Saddam Hussein on such and such a date, how they saw him running away in a car after a missile hit certain compounds.

Now, how do we verify this information? It's very hard. We do know that many people are coming up saying that they saw him at certain places. But many of them may be just imagining. It may be his doubles. It may be other people, and just because they're thinking of the subject so much, they're starting to imagine things. But we do know that here in Baghdad, the residents are very curious to know where is he. Is he still in Baghdad, or did he flee the country, and why did he not fight? Was it that he was betrayed by his generals, or did he make a deal in order to save himself, save his sons and his aides, and save the Americans a fight in Baghdad?

All these are questions on the mind of every Iraqi -- Bill.

HEMMER: Rula, thanks. Rula Amin in Baghdad. Again, we'll come back to you in a moment, Rula. Want to get more information what you're hearing on the ground, and also about this neighborhood that's described to us where this videotape is said to be originating, but for more, here is Heidi now -- Heidi.

HEIDI COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: U.S. officials will undoubtedly be studying the latest video showing Saddam Hussein, looking for clues to determine the actual date of the tape and whether it is, in fact, the former leader of Iraq. From Washington, with more on this new development and its significance, CNN Analyst Kenneth Pollack of the Brookings Institution's Saban Center. Welcome to you once again -- Ken.

KENNETH POLLACK, CNN ANALYST: Thanks, Heidi.

COLLINS: I want to ask you -- we just heard from Abu Dhabi Television and the television anchor there, Jasim Al-Azzawi who says Saddam is not -- if, in fact, this is him, he is not teasing or taunting the U.S. by being photographed or being filmed, if you will. Why would he do this? What would his motive be?

POLLACK: Well, I think, Heidi, first of all, I would agree with Jasim. I don't think Saddam is teasing the United States. I don't think that that is necessarily a motive for him. I think much more important for him is to demonstrate to his followers both inside of Iraq and he believes outside of Iraq that he is still alive.

The most important thing for Saddam right now is to try to regroup his strength, to convince his loyalists to stay in the fight, to continue to resist the Americans -- and also, and this is an important point, that Rula was just making. He's also got to convince the people of Iraq that he's not out. He wants them to remain afraid that he is going to come back to power. He wants them not to embrace the Americans too openly. He wants them to continue those who are resisting to continue to resist.

COLLINS: So does he want the people to be afraid of him, or does he want them to fight for him? Because I'm thinking if you say they see their leader, they still have a leader to follow, hopefully in his mind, that will make the people fight for him. Which do you think it is? POLLACK: I think it's both. I think that he wants the vast majority of the Iraqi people, the people who have been quiescent for the last 34 years because they fear him, to remain fearful, to remain scared in the belief that Saddam will be able to make a comeback, and for his loyalists, the people who really do like him, who have benefited from his rule, who have been willing to fight for him, he wants them to continue fighting.

Saddam is really on the ropes right now. He's almost out for the count, and he has got to find a way to regroup some kind of strength around himself. He's got to put up some kind of resistance for the Americans, and right now, just showing that he is still alive and that there are people in Iraq who still support him is about the best he can do.

COLLINS: And does this video, perhaps, put the Pentagon on the ropes, as you say, as well? We've heard many times from the Pentagon that it doesn't really matter to them whether or not Saddam Hussein is caught. When we see video like this, if, in fact, it is verified, does that change the urgency or the need to catch him?

POLLACK: Yes, I think it certainly does put some additional pressure on the Pentagon. And again, I think the Pentagon is right in saying that Saddam Hussein is no longer a threat to the Iraqi people, to the rest of the world, to the United States. Pick any country you want to. With that said, it is still important to remember that as long as Saddam Hussein is out there, the United States is not going to be finished with this war, at least in the sense that as long as Saddam is out there, there may be loyalists who are willing to fight for him, and there may be Iraqis who are too fearful to actually begin the process of reconstruction, and for that reason, I think it will be important for the U.S. to make a greater effort to go after him, but it is important to distinguish between the potential problems that Saddam can cause in this sense of just being out there and being able to stir up some support, and the much bigger problems that he would cause if he were actually in power in many some way.

COLLINS: Ken, last question for you. We don't know exactly where these tapes came from. When he were talking with the television anchor at Abu Dhabi, he felt like he shouldn't really say exactly where they came from. What is your sense on that? Does that tell you anything?

POLLACK: Well, it's my guess that this did come from a sort of a trusted emissary, and that may also be another reason why it took so long for these tapes to get out, why it took nine days for them to get out. They may have been filmed -- obviously filmed somewhere in Baghdad, smuggled out of the country, probably by courier, because that was probably the only way to do it. And so, chances are, the folks at Abu Dhabi TV don't want to give away who their sources are.

COLLINS: Exactly. All right. Ken Pollack, our CNN analyst, thank you so much -- Bill.

HEMMER: Heidi, you mentioned Jasim Al-Azzawi, Abu Dhabi Television back with us for a final time here. I'm not quite sure if you've learned more in the time that we left you there for about five minutes, but if you have, tell us. And also, want to know about the number of times in the past where Saddam Hussein has simply miscalculated, whether it's the Iran-Iraq war, whether it is the invasion of Kuwait in 1990, or whether or not it is standing up to the U.S. military in the previous conflict, and knowing each time he has met with a stone wall.

What is it that he sees right now, if he is still alive, if this tape is legit, as we have said, what is his future, and what is his calculation at this point?

AL-AZZAWI: Bill, the tape is genuine. Let me just comment on what Ken Pollack said, whether it was sent by an emissary or we smuggled it out of the country. We have several SNGs located in different parts of the country, and this was fed to us today. We received it just about -- maybe about 50 minutes. It is confirmed to us, and we got it from a very credible source. It is exclusive to us. As far as about Saddam, whether he's making -- he made miscalculations, that goes without saying.

His biggest problem, his biggest colossal wrong decision, when he invaded Iran. That was the war that begotten -- has begotten other wars. The Kuwaiti War in '91, as this last war, is just an extension of that colossal mistake that he did, and one after another, he was just trying to get out of it.

HEMMER: So what do you think the calculation for him is now?

AL-AZZAWI: Survival. He knows that the Americans are in Baghdad, but they will not be able to spare 50,000 to 60,000 soldiers day and night, tracking every single lead and every single house and questioning people.

Baghdad is a big, big district, and unless somebody very close to him betrays him, it is going to be a long time before he's caught. Now, how his brother Barzan was caught yesterday, or how his other half-brother Watban was caught just at the border with Syria, nobody can tell. But Saddam is a lot smarter than his two brothers. He is surrounded by his own son, he is surrounded by his adjutant, who would die for him. It is going to be a function of time, hard work, intelligence. There isn't much high technology could do right now. This is not an eavesdropping situation. This is where you have to follow day and night all those leads.

HEMMER: Jasim, thanks. Jasim Al-Azzawi, Abu Dhabi Television, the broadcaster there, United Arab Emirates with his take right now on what's being shown on his network around the world, no doubt. Jasim, thanks again for your perspective.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com