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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown

Tariq Aziz Surrenders to U.S. Forces; First Round of U.S. Talks With North Korea Are Unproductive; CEO of American Airlines Steps Down; More Americans Concerned About Economy Than National Security

Aired April 24, 2003 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


AARON BROWN, HOST: Good evening again, everyone.
Early this year, before the war, Tariq Aziz said this. "Do you expect me, after all of my history as a militant and as one of the Iraqi leaders, to go to an American prisoner, to go to Guantanamo? I would prefer to die," he said.

Well, this isn't a hypothetical any more. The United States has him, and we'll spend a lot of time tonight on the many questions it raises. How did they get him? What does he know? Will he end up in an American prison?

The answers may be a long time in coming. But this we know for sure, the best-known face of the regime, aside from Saddam Hussein himself, is now, as Central Command put it, under coalition control.

So the whip begins tonight with the story of Tariq Aziz and CNN's David Ensor leads it off. David, a headline from you.

DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, Tariq Aziz turned himself in to U.S. authorities in Baghdad today, Aaron, and though he's only the Eight of Spades in the Pentagon's deck of cards of wanted Iraqis, there are intelligence officials who are hopeful he may know something about Saddam Hussein, and he may know something about weapons of mass destruction.

BROWN: David, thank you. Back to you at the top.

More on Tariq Aziz from Baghdad tonight, Nic Robertson there for us. Nic, a headline.

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, Tariq Aziz, a friend of Saddam Hussein's since the late 1950s, rising to the top of the Ba'ath Party, the ruling Ba'ath Party, by the late 1970s. Many people in this city hoping that his arrest will lead to the arrest of Saddam Hussein.

BROWN: Nic, thank you.

The president was traveling today, talking about Iraq and the economy.

Senior White House correspondent John King with us tonight. John, a headline. JOHN KING, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, a trip to Ohio, hardball politics trying to sell his tax cut, amid fresh evidence the war has strengthened the president's political standing. But there's also plenty of new evidence that does not translate at all into support for his tax cut plan.

BROWN: John, thank you.

And a big development in an ugly controversy involving executives at American Airlines. Greg clarkin on that. He is at American headquarters in Fort Worth, Texas. Greg, a headline.

GREG CLARKIN, CNN FINANCIAL CORRESPONDENT: And Aaron, a major management blunder has cost Don Carty his job as head of American Airlines. But even with a new management team in place, the world's largest airline still faces a possible bankruptcy filing, Aaron.

BROWN: Greg, thank you. Back to you and the rest shortly.

Also coming up tonight on NEWSNIGHT, former senator George Mitchell on the outlook for peace between the Israelis and the Palestinians. He knows the region and the struggle to find the right road map better than most.

And the latest in our series of still photographers. Tonight, Ben Lowy of "TIME" magazine, who captured some very gripping images from this week's religious pilgrimage in Karbala in Iraq.

That and more in the hour ahead.

But we begin with the surrender of Tariq Aziz.

For years, he was the smooth-talking, English-speaking, smiling face of the Iraqi regime, often seeming to be the reasonable face of a most unreasonable regime.

Tonight he is in custody. Whether he has important information to provide is less than clear, but the symbolic importance of his surrender cannot be underestimated.

CNN's David Ensor begins our coverage.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ENSOR (voice-over): Tariq Aziz turned himself in to U.S. authorities in Baghdad Thursday, officials say, the day after an intermediary had approached them to say he was interested in doing so. A knowledgeable official says no promises were made to Aziz. Quote, "We don't make deals."

For the regime's best-known English-speaking spokesman, its deputy prime minister, the decision must have been difficult, a decision he recently insisted he would never make.

TARIQ AZIZ, IRAQI DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER: Do you expect me, after all of my history as a militant and as an Iraqi, one of the Iraqi leaders, to go to an American prison, to go to Guantanamo? I would prefer to die. I prefer to die.

ENSOR: Responding to shouted questions about Aziz, President Bush gave a thumbs-up, and U.S. officials are clearly delighted by the development.

KEN POLLACK, CNN ANALYST: He was a face who all Iraqis knew, who all the world knew. And for many Iraqis, knowing that he is in captivity will hopefully reassure them that Saddam's regime really is finished. It's not going to be able to come back to bite them.

ENSOR: Though Aziz was only the Eight of Spades in the Pentagon's deck of wanted Iraqis, an official says, he was "pretty well wired." He "may know who survived" the air strikes on leadership targets, including whether Saddam Hussein himself is still alive.

Aziz may also know the location of other senior leaders still hiding in Baghdad.

As for weapons of mass destruction, U.S. officials doubt that Tariq Aziz can tell them where weapons are to be found, but believe he may be able to confirm their existence.

An Iraqi Catholic who met recently with the pope, the 67-year-old Aziz enjoyed the perks of power in the Ba'ath Party regime of Saddam Hussein. As looters and journalists found after Baghdad fell, he lived in much greater comfort than most Iraqis. But that was before he had to go into hiding.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ENSOR: Clearly, the first questions for Tariq Aziz from U.S. officials, does he know whether Saddam Hussein survived the air strikes March 20 and April 8 and where is Saddam now, Aaron.

BROWN: Well, this is intriguing. Is there any process in place that we know of to try any of these cards in the deck of cards for war crimes?

ENSOR: Well, the U.S. has said it will hold those that believes responsible for war crimes, responsible for them. It has not been made clear how the U.S. intends to do that. There's been some debate and discussion about whether there should be a separate sort of Hague- style court set up, an international court.

Suggestions also that the Iraqis may be asked to set up their own system, that they should set up the system, that the crimes were mostly against Iraqis in the first place. And it may be that view that prevails, but nothing's been decided yet, Aaron.

BROWN: And in any case, for now, it's the Americans that control him, and he is somewhere, and do we know where?

ENSOR: He's probably in or near Baghdad, which may be where a lot of the other leadership still are hiding in that city.

BROWN: David, thank you. CNN's David Ensor, who's been working the Tariq Aziz story tonight.

Heard a lot over the last few weeks about how quickly word spreads in Baghdad when there's important news to be told. It is early morning there now. The news has been out for a few hours. We assume people are just now getting some of it.

CNN's Nic Robertson is there.

ROBERTSON: Aaron, there was news late yesterday of a lot of activity in a Christian neighborhood of Baghdad by coalition forces. A lot of U.S. troops went into Al Zuama (ph) neighborhood about three miles east of the center of Baghdad.

We don't know this for sure, but this may have had something to do with the arrest of Tariq Aziz.

But what people have been telling us about overnight here, and we expect to hear more of it this morning as people head out onto the streets, is that they hope that Tariq Aziz's arrest will lead to tracking down Saddam Hussein.

Many people here, perhaps counter to what we would expect them to think, still believe that Saddam Hussein may yet come back, may yet reenergize elements of his army and try and take power, try and take control, and they want proof. People here want proof he is either dead, injured, or captured.

So their focus will be very likely on Tariq Aziz, is, can he provide the coalition this critical information that will track Saddam Hussein down for them? That's probably the most important thing, Aaron.

BROWN: Their relationship was a political relationship and a personal relationship?

ROBERTSON: It appears to have started early, at least, because of political shed, political beliefs, Arab socialism, that's what Aziz said started him on his track towards the Ba'ath Party back in the late 1950s. Indeed, Aziz recounts in his early life that he remembers a deal being struck between the British authorities and the Iraqi authorities to share military bases, to share naval bases, air bases as well.

And he said at that time, he, Aziz, took to the streets in protests. So likely he found common ideological cause with Saddam Hussein, and, because of that, rose to very senior ranks within the regime.

But were they really close? Was anyone really close to Saddam Hussein? They certainly had to play the game that way, otherwise their fate could be entirely uncertain.

He did, perhaps, appear to fall out of favor in more recent years. His son was arrested for a few months on suspicion of corruption, that there, possibly there a power struggle between Aziz's son and one of Saddam, one of Saddam Hussein's sons, that's unclear. But Aziz not the prominent international player in the later years that he was earlier on. So perhaps an indication there he fell out of favor with Saddam Hussein. Not clear, Aaron.

BROWN: Was the fact that he was the guy out there so much, particularly in the run-up to the first Gulf War, is that an indication of his political place in the Ba'ath Party, or was it just, in some respects, that he was a smooth talker, spoke English well, knew the niceties of diplomacy?

ROBERTSON: He was all of those things. Likely high on that list as well would be that he could be trusted to continually put the party position in the best possible light, to spin things as best as possible.

He studied at Baghdad's School of Fine Arts. He did come away with a degree in English. He did go on to teach, and then go into journalism, and perhaps in journalism, he learned how to craft his words most effectively, and that was his primary use by the regime. It seems to use those well-crafted words to interface with the rest of the world.

And that's where -- that is what he is remembered most for, and perhaps it's those insights that he's going to be able to provide now to the coalition, Aaron.

BROWN: And just a quick final one. Was he as well known within Iraq, within Baghdad, as he seemed to be known to the outside world?

ROBERTSON: Absolutely, and perhaps that provides us with a key to why Aziz decided that the route of turning himself in, of striking a deal through an intermediary, was perhaps one of the only routes left open to him. He appeared on television many, many, many occasions.

He was absolutely well known through at least the last two decades on Iraqi television as being a true and keen and close Ba'ath Party member close to Saddam Hussein. And his face was so well known, it would be unthinkable that he would have been able to walk the streets of Baghdad and even get out of the country somehow.

BROWN: And just on one thing that David Ensor mentioned, is there in Baghdad, you have been in other parts of the country too, is there a concern or a feeling that Saddam may come back, that he may reconstitute the army in some way and try and retake power?

ROBERTSON: This is so fundamental to people's fears here. It plays into their paranoia, if you will. It plays into rumors about all sorts of things. People here still talk about a deal between Saddam Hussein and the United States, we -- Saddam Hussein and President Bush.

Why do they say this? Because they say there's no proof that Saddam Hussein is dead. He destroyed our country. He sold out to the United States. It's all part of a big deal. That's why the United States troops haven't been able to find him yet, because he is living in the United States.

They -- people here are taking a long time to get over the fact that a man who was so cruel and harsh to them can truly be gone. And it is -- and it, perhaps, is one of those critical issues that will convince people here that a change has come about. Otherwise it could perhaps take months, even years, Aaron.

And it does play into these most bizarre, bizarre rumors. But we hear them from so many different people.

BROWN: Nic, thank you. Nic Robertson, who is in Baghdad this morning for him.

So will Tariq Aziz will wake up someday in Guantanamo? Will there be a war crimes trial? How might this all play out?

We are joined from Washington tonight by former U.S. attorney Joseph diGenova, who says there's a lot of precedent here for a major war crimes trial.

Joe, it's good to see you.

JOSEPH DIGENOVA, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY: (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

BROWN: Who sets the rules? What is a war crime?

DIGENOVA: Well, war crimes are defined by international law, more specifically by the Geneva Conventions and some preceding treaties. But actually the victors set the stage for this.

Mr. Aziz and, including, by the way, not only Mr. Aziz, but almost everybody in the foreign ministry, including the former ambassador to the U.N., Mr. Aldouri, who quickly left the United States in recent days, they would be tried in military -- Mr. Aziz could be tried in a military tribunal in the war zone itself, because he is a member of the revolutionary war council. He could also...

BROWN: Of what crime?

DIGENOVA: Well, he could be tried for crimes against American soldiers, which were committed in those zones, which include the treatment of the POWs, the murder of the POWs in custody. He could also then be tried in Iraqi courts for crimes against Iraqi civilians, those who were used as human shields, those who were killed by the military because they would not cooperate.

He could then also be tried under international law and the Geneva Conventions before an international tribunal, such as the ones which are at work in Kosovo in the Balkans.

BROWN: Is it necessary to show that he specifically ordered something or did something, that he took a specific action? Or is it enough to say, Look, he's a member of the government. He was the deputy prime minister. The government was bad, so is he.

DIGENOVA: It would depend on the particular crime with which he's charged. Under the Von Ribbentrapp (ph) precedent from the Nurenberg trials, as you know, Von Ribbentrapp was the foreign minister of Nazi Germany, was aware of the plans, was their defender in public, not only very much like Tariq Aziz, in fact, Tariq Aziz is, in fact, the Von Ribbentrapp of the reign of terror of Saddam Hussein.

He would have not had to known about specific acts. He would have had to have known about the policies, for example, to exterminate the Kurds, to exterminate the Shi'as. His knowledge and participation in the government, particularly since he was a senior official in the revolutionary war council and had been since 1974 a military figure, he would be liable for the acts committed on the orders in which he participated in making.

BROWN: But they have to show that he participated in making the order, don't they?

DIGENOVA: He would -- they would have to show that he participated in the decision-making process that led to the policies. He would not necessarily have to be involved in the specific order to kill anyone.

BROWN: Is this -- is it important, in some way, to either the United States government or the international community, that whether it's Mr. Aziz or others in the government, that they be brought before an international tribunal?

DIGENOVA: I think it's important that at some point that happen. I don't think it's necessarily -- necessary that it be the first tribunal that they are brought before.

I actually think it would be very important that he be tried in Iraqi courts by Iraqi judges and lawyers, with the assistance of some international jurists. International law provides for he -- for the fact that he can be tried in his own country.

I think that should happen first. I think after that, the international community then has every right in the world to bring him and others to trial for the international human rights violations, which go well beyond things that would be covered in those trials, and there can be successive prosecutions for these various acts.

BROWN: He -- I -- let me just go back to the question. I think what I -- where I think I'm trying to get to here is South Africa, for example...

DIGENOVA: Right.

BROWN: ... went a different route. They said, The best way to heal in South Africa is not to put all these people on trial, not to punish, to have them come forward, make their confessions, their reconciliations, and we move on as a country.

So what I think I'm asking, is it important to go a different direction here? And if it is, why?

DIGENOVA: Oh, it's absolutely to go a different direction here. This was a criminal regime under international law, which had, as one of its purposes, to kill its citizens and the citizens of other country, to invade other countries, to use illegal, internationally illegal weapons, chemical and biological weapons, which were made illegal after World War I, and which Saddam Hussein's regime used against its own people and against the people of Iran.

Those crimes are of such a manifest nature that it is absolutely imperative that this not be a feel-good commission. It must be literal prosecutions for crimes against their own people, the peoples of Kuwait and Iran, and that people serve very, very long prison sentences if they are convicted.

BROWN: Joe, thanks. The whole question of crimes against the people of Iran opens a whole 'nother door that we don't -- we're not going to walk down tonight, but it's an interesting, it's an interesting path to walk down some night.

Thank you, and it's good to see you. Thank you.

DIGENOVA: Thank you, good to see you.

BROWN: Joe diGenova.

Out in North Korea in the nuclear crisis, the negotiations apparently ending prematurely in Beijing. Reuters news service is reporting that the North Korean delegation, along with the chief American negotiator, were seen leaving the venue just a short time after today's rounds of talks began. No word yet on what was said, but things hadn't been going well up to this point.

Here's CNN's Andrea Koppel.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN STATE DEPARTMENT CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Here inside China's leadership compound, U.S. administration sources say, North Korea's representative, Lee Gun (ph), told Assistant Secretary of State James Kelly that Pyongyang has a nuclear bomb and would prove it has the weapon soon.

North Korea wants security assurances from the United States that it won't attack. But Secretary of State Powell says the U.S. will not succumb to blackmail.

COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: That they should not leave this series of discussions that have been held in Beijing with the slightest impression that the United States and its partners and the nations in the region will be intimidated by bellicose statements or by threats...

KOPPEL: The U.S. intelligence community has suspected for years North Korea had at least one nuclear weapon, something the North had so far refused to confirm. Lee Gun also told Kelly that Pyongyang can't dismantle this weapon. He said that whether or not there is a, quote, "physical demonstration" to prove this nuclear weapon exists was up to the United States.

Though some administration officials are viewing this comment as a veiled threat by Pyongyang to test its nukes, other officials say it could be a bluff, typical North Korean brinksmanship, to force the U.S. to grant concessions.

RICHARD BOUCHER, STATE DEPARTMENT SPOKESMAN: They said a lot of things that require careful analysis before anybody jumps out and makes grand pronouncements when it means this and it means that.

KOPPEL (on camera): North Korea's official news agency put out a statement Thursday warning that U.S. actions may trigger a war on the Korean peninsula, quote, "at any moment." Secretary of State Powell said the U.S. was looking for a diplomatic solution but was leaving all options on the table.

Andrea Koppel, CNN, at the State Department.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Ahead on NEWSNIGHT, trouble and turnover at American Airlines. The top guy resigns amid an uproar over management perks as the company heads towards bankruptcy.

And the president heads to Ohio to sell his tax plan to the public. We'll have the details.

From New York, this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: More turmoil for American Airlines. Tonight the CEO, Don Carty, stepped down. And although the company has apparently won now concessions from a number of unions, it remains on the edge of what would be a colossal bankruptcy filing.

So tonight the spotlight is, once again, on American's headquarters in Fort Worth, Texas, where CNN financial correspondent Greg Clarkin joins us once again -- Greg.

CLARKIN: Hi, there, Aaron.

It was a tremendous day here at American Airlines headquarters. There was a lot going on. The board of directors meeting in a lengthy meeting to deal with a lot of contentious issues. One, the immediate issue was whether or not Don Carty would stay on as CEO. That was decided late in the day, his fate was. But also the larger issue of bankruptcy. That is still a possibility (UNINTELLIGIBLE) world's largest carrier.

But first and foremost, the board had to deal with a very contentious labor issue in the wake of Carty's major management blunder.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) CLARKIN (voice-over): Donald Carty is out as head of American Airlines. Carty resigning after losing the trust of his labor unions when he failed to tell workers about executive perks for the airline's top officials. Word that American executives were securing their financial futures came as Carty was winning steep pay cuts and other concessions from American's rank and file.

The news shattered the fragile labor peace at American and led some board members to push for Carty's removal. Carty will be replaced by American's president, Gerard Arfy (ph), and Arfy steps into much the same financial mess that Carty steps out of.

American is losing $10 million a day and says it will file for bankruptcy protection if it can't reach agreement with all three of its unions on a concession deal. So far, the pilots and the ground workers have agreed to a deal, but there's no word yet from the flight attendants.

JOHN DARRAH, PRESIDENT, ALLIED PILOTS ASSOCIATION: I'm not convinced we're done yet. I -- this is -- if we avoid bankruptcy tonight, tomorrow, this weekend, it will be the third time we've done it in three weeks. So I will not say it's over until it's over. I've quit doing that.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CLARKIN: So the future of American rests squarely in the hands of its 26,000 flight attendants. Now, the pilots and the ground workers, as well as the new management team, all say they're ready to go. But right now, those flight attendants can dictate whether or not American lands in bankruptcy proceedings, Aaron.

BROWN: When do they vote?

CLARKIN: There is no deadline set right now. What we're getting is a sense that the flight attendants, to some degree, have isolated themselves on the process. There is absolutely no communication coming out of the flight attendants' union, and that was much the case from late in the afternoon or so. It's tough to get a read on where they stand at this point.

But there were some speculation earlier that their board had rejected the consweetened concession offer, and that would obviously put American in bankrupt (UNINTELLIGIBLE), bankruptcy proceedings. Some were speculating that could be as early as tomorrow if not Monday.

But still, they're trying to salvage this and get the flight attendants on board, if you will.

BROWN: Greg, thank you. Greg Clarkin in Forth Worth, Texas, tonight.

President Bush was on the road today. He was in Ohio to sell his tax cut plan and to lean on a Republican senator -- a Republican senator -- who agrees with him on just about everything but the tax cut plan.

Like the president, Senator George Voinovich is immensely popular in Ohio, but the two Georges differ on the size of the tax cut and the importance of quickly balancing the budget.

Here again, our senior White House correspondent, John King.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KING (voice-over): The Army tank plant in Lima, Ohio, the perfect backdrop for a president fresh from quick combat victory in Iraq.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Our enemy learned that when Abrams tanks are on the battlefield, America means business.

KING: There's no doubt the war has boosted the president's standing. Seventy percent of Americans now say they approve of how Mr. Bush is handling his job. But trips like this are aimed at changing numbers on the home front that are far less encouraging. A majority in the new CNN poll, 54 percent, say Mr. Bush is not paying enough attention to the economy.

Mr. Bush says he is paying attention, urgent attention, and said at his first stop in Canton that one critical step is new tax cuts of at least $550 billion.

BUSH: The package needs to be robust so that we can create more than a million new jobs by the end of 2004.

KING: It's a tough sell in Congress, even with some fellow Republicans, like Ohio Senator George Voinovich, who greeted the president at the airport but skipped the two speeches.

Voinovich is one of several Republicans who say they will support no more than $350 billion in new tax cuts unless spending is cut to pay for the rest.

The president hopes to rally public support to put pressure on Congress.

BUSH: Well, it seems like to me, they might have some explaining (UNINTELLIGIBLE). If they agree that tax reliefs creates jobs, then why are they for a little bitty tax relief package?

KING: But the country is split when asked if the Bush tax cuts are a good idea. Forty-seven percent said no, 42 percent yes. And although the economy is growing, 56 percent said they think it is in recession, an alarming number for a president not all that far away from a reelection campaign.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KING: And if the president doesn't get most of what he wants in this tax cut debate, aides say he is all but certain to quickly come forward with another round of tax cut proposals. It's part policy. The president thinks he's right with this approach. And it's part politics. This president is determined to rebut those critics who say he's not spending enough time fighting to revive the economy, Aaron.

BROWN: Setting aside for a moment whether $350 billion qualifies as "itty bitty," in the president's view, does it politically matter if the president prevails? Is it enough to simply be out there trying?

KING: Well, they believe it is critical that he be out there trying, because that was the knock on his father, if you will, that his father was asleep at the switch when the country was in recession. This president is determined to try to convince the American people anything is far -- nothing is anything farther from the truth, that he is trying every day.

As for the numbers, the White House believes the president can get 550. If he only gets $350 billion, they're already preparing to say this. He got more than $1.7 trillion last time, $350 billion this time, he'll be back again tomorrow. So they have a backup political plan if they don't get what they want this time. But they still have another month, maybe two months, to fight it out.

BROWN: John, thank you. John King at the White House tonight.

We just heard a couple of numbers out of the poll in John King's report. Joining us now with more on what the country is thinking, our senior political analyst, Bill Schneider.

We see there isn't, Bill, a whole lot of enthusiasm, or at least certainly not a majority of Americans believing the tax cut as the president has set it out is the right thing. Why not?

BILL SCHNEIDER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, Aaron, one word, recession. Just as John reported, most Americans today believe the economy is in recession. That number has been going up very fast.

Now, economists say we're not. But, you know, what do they know?

OK, President Bush says his tax cut package is a jobs and growth package. So people who are concerned about recession ought to be very enthusiastic about this tax cut package. Not so. Americans who believe that the country is in recession solidly oppose the tax cuts. That's the 57 percent opposed.

The tax cuts are more popular among those who believe we are not in a recession. So my view is, the bad economy is undermining President Bush's argument for tax cuts. In bad times, people think, you know, The country can't afford tax cuts, particularly when they see government services, important services like education, being cut.

BROWN: Is -- has the economy itself now moved to the top of the list of people's concerns?

SCHNEIDER: Well, very quickly, the answer is, yes, it has. We asked, Which issue is going to be more important to you when you decide how you're going to vote for president next year, the economy, or national security? And the answer is, the economy, by 53 to 36.

Most Americans say the war has made the country safer. The number who say they're worried about terrorism is actually lower now than it's been at any time since 9/11.

And, you know, we all know Americans don't have very long attention spans. Consider this. Fifty-one percent of Americans say they've been paying a great deal of attention to the fighting in Iraq over the past few weeks. Only 28 percent say they've been paying attention to the efforts to rebuild Iraq. And remember the war in Afghanistan? It's still going on, but only 12 percent of Americans say they're paying any attention to it.

Iraq could quickly go the way of Afghanistan. In fact, more Americans today say that they are worried about becoming a victim of SARS than becoming a victim of terrorism. And, you know, I think that probably makes sense, because we think we know how to keep terrorists off airplanes. We are not sure at all how to keep SARS off airplanes.

BROWN: Bill, thank you very much. Bill Snyder, our senior -- Schneider, our senior political analyst.

Coming up on NEWSNIGHT, reading public opinion, but this time in Iraq. How good a job did the administration do on that? We'll talk with former CIA chief James Woolsey.

First a break, the latest headlines, and then NEWSNIGHT continues on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, I'm Fredricka Whitfield in the CNN newsroom. Here are the headlines at this hour.

CNN has confirmed that former Iraq deputy prime minister Tariq Aziz is in U.S. custody. He was number 43 on the Pentagon list of the 55 most-wanted former regime leaders. CNN analyst Ken Pollack says Aziz is an important get symbolically, but believes Aziz was not part of Saddam's inner circle. Pollack says it is unclear how much information Aziz can provide.

A suicide bombing at an Israeli train station today killed a security guard and injured at least 13 people. A faction linked to Yasser Arafat's Fatah movement claims responsibility.

A federal judge says Zacarias Moussaoui is entitled to see a classified plan by government prosecutors. It proposes how Moussaoui, who's defending himself, should be allowed to interview al Qaeda detainees. Prosecutors initially gave the proposal only to the judge, who said it was unacceptable that Moussaoui was not also given a copy.

Police in Pennsylvania are trying to figure out why a 14-year-old junior high school student shot and killed his principal before killing himself. It happened before classes morning in Red Lion, about 30 miles southeast of Harrisburg. Police say the eighth grader was carrying several handguns. And a dozen F-15 Eagle fighter jets, along with their pilots, are back home from the war in Iraq. They landed this afternoon at Langley Air Force Base in Virginia. The airmen were greeted with lots of hugs and kisses.

Those are the headlines, I'm Fredricka Whitfield. NEWSNIGHT WITH AARON BROWN continues in a few moments.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Jay Garner, the man in charge of running Iraq for the time being, is promising to quickly reopen Iraqi government ministries, in essence, bringing the machinery of government back online along with the oil wells and the power plants and the rest.

The larger question still remains, though, who runs the government, and what shape ultimately will it take?

Today the defense secretary, Donald Rumsfeld, made it plain the shape it would not take, in his view, a Shi'ite theocracy. Yet so far, Shi'ite clerics seem the best equipped and the most willing to fill the power vacuum, which came a surprise to many.

Here to talk about this and other things as well, we hope, James Woolsey, the former director of the Central Intelligence Agency.

It's nice to you again, sir.

JAMES WOOLSEY, FORMER DIRECTOR, CENTRAL INTELLIGENCE AGENCY: Good to be with you, Aaron.

BROWN: Do you think the administration underestimated, to some degree, the -- both the power of and the willingness of the Shi'ite clerics to assume both a political and social function in the wake of the war?

WOOLSEY: Well, as in Iran, in Iraq there are Shi'ite clerics and then there are Shi'ite clerics. In Iran there is a minority of mullahs who are running the instruments of power of the state, and a large majority, really, of clerics are now opposed to them.

And I think similarly in Iraq, what we're seeing is people like Hakim (ph) and the others who are with this Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq, which is really run by the mullahs in Iran, I think we're seeing them assert themselves.

They may well be disciplined and organized, but I don't think they represent the majority of the Shi'a in Iraq by any means. I think they are effectively Iranian theocratic agents.

BROWN: So the pictures we've seen and the words we've heard, over -- to some degree, over the last two weeks, but certainly in this week, may not give us an accurate reflection of how that 60 percent of the Iraqi population thinks?

WOOLSEY: I think that's right. The Shi'a traditionally, except in the 10th century in Egypt, have generally separated mosque and state. Khomeini and his revolution in Iran were an exception, and they continue to be an exception in Shi'a Islam, and it's one of the reasons why they are so unpopular in Iran today, including with one after another of grand ayatollahs who are splitting off from them.

I think the same thing will be true in Iraq. But these people, like Hakim, may be, as I said, pretty well organized and disciplined, and they're trying to take power. But I don't think they represent the bulk of opinion within the Shi'a community.

BROWN: Let me, this is absolutely hypothetical, walk away from it if you want, but you could walk away from any question if you want, including the hypothetical ones. If we believe that the Iraqis should decide the future of government of Iraq, and I think we do believe that as a country, and if they were to decide on a theocracy, what right does the United States to have say no?

WOOLSEY: Well, I think we need to stay with this long enough so that the decent and reasonable Muslims in Iraq can assert themselves over those who are essentially like the communists, disciplined and organized to take charge in a chaotic situation.

If you look at Iran as a model, the mullahs are terribly unpopular there, the ones that are running the government right now. They can barely get a taxi in Tehran. They've made a terrible botch of the economy. And, as I said, they're in violation, really, of almost all of the Shi'a tradition.

I think the same thing would be true in Iraq. But if you let there be one vote once, and the more disciplined revolutionaries take charge, I don't think that's really democracy. Democracy really requires an appetite for being able to have an opposition, and a rule of law, and being able to lose and still wake up the next morning and not worry about a knock on the door in the middle of the night.

BROWN: Well, we've got about a minute. I want to turn to another part of the world here. Doesn't sound like the talks in Beijing went very well with North Korea today. Are -- is the United States government running out of easy options where the North Koreans are concerned, assuming there were ever any easy options?

WOOLSEY: Maybe. I think that the really tough call here will be whether or not we can get China to lean hard on the North Koreans. They did cut off oil for them for a few days a couple weeks ago.

But the North Korean regime really can't survive without Chinese support, and the Chinese so far have been quite reluctant to work with us on this. If they lean on the North Koreans, we could come out of this peacefully. If they don't, the -- Kim Jong-Il is likely to continue to try to blackmail us, and he may well drive us into some type of hostilities. I hope not, but it could happen.

BROWN: And can there be a hostility in the Korean peninsula that doesn't do enormous damage to South Korea?

WOOLSEY: It would be very difficult. We could take out Yongbyon with an air strike, but if the North Koreans use their artillery, which Seoul is within range of, killed tens of thousands, even hundreds of thousands of South Koreans, and thousands of American troops. We would win a war on the Korean peninsula, but would it be a bloody war.

BROWN: It's always good to talk to you. James Woolsey, the former CIA director. Nice to have you on the program tonight. Thank you, sir.

WOOLSEY: Good to be with you.

BROWN: Thank you, sir, very much.

Ahead on NEWSNIGHT, moving forward on a peace plan for the Middle East. Sounds like the whole world is a little crazy today, doesn't it? Will new Palestinian leadership break the logjam? We will talk with former senator George Mitchell.

We'll take a break first. NEWSNIGHT continues on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: The Israeli government today issued an invitation to Abu Mazen, the newly designated head of the Palestinian government, to come to Jerusalem for discussions on restarting the peace talks. The day comes after -- rather, the invitation comes after he and Yasser Arafat agreed to a cabinet, but also after a suicide bomber killed himself and a guard at an Israeli train station.

Here to talk about the developments in the Middle East, significant developments, former senator and Mideast negotiator George Mitchell.

It's always nice to see you.

Well, if this doesn't lead somewhere, then you sort of get the feeling, that, at least in our lifetime, it's not going to happen at all.

GEORGE MITCHELL, FORMER SENATE MAJORITY LEADER: Well, I say, never say never in this process, but...

BROWN: Well, that's because you're a much more optimistic person than I am.

MITCHELL: Yes, but it's clear that there is an opportunity now. And it will be a tragedy if it is not seized.

BROWN: The -- everybody seems to agree that nothing will happen -- it's not just the releasing of the road map, which obviously is important symbolically, unless the president or the American government really engages. Agree?

MITCHELL: Yes.

BROWN: It's not -- the French can't do it, the Russians can't do it, the U.N. can't do it. Why is that only the Americans can do it?

MITCHELL: Two reasons. First, of course, the Israelis don't trust the French or the Russians or the U.N. and would not willingly and seriously engage with them.

Secondly, everyone recognizes -- Israelis, Palestinians, and the three I've just mentioned -- that there's only one entity on earth that can not only bring the parties together, but guarantee implementation of an agreement, and that's the United States government.

BROWN: When you say guarantee implementation, you mean what?

MITCHELL: Well, you remember Camp David?

BROWN: Yes.

MITCHELL: That was 23 years ago. We agreed to pay the Israelis $3 billion a year, and the Egyptians $2 billion a year, minimum, to underpin that process. We've now paid $115 billion to them, and we're still paying, and keeping it going. No one else can incur that kind of obligation and maintain it.

Secondly, no one has the moral authority that the United States does now. That's, of course, questionable in the Arab world at the moment. But it's significant, Aaron, even when the demonstrations among the Arab peoples are at their most intense against the United States, the leaders call for more American involvement, not less.

BROWN: All right. On the other hand, is -- we are a year and change out from an American presidential election. Complicate the problem.

MITCHELL: It does, sure.

BROWN: Because?

MITCHELL: It complicates every problem. Domestic politics has a role in every decision that's made by every president. But the fact is, here is a moment of opportunity, where the only way the outcome can be achieved is through active American involvement.

BROWN: Does the president, in your view, have the luxury of waiting until after November 2004 to fully engage in the Middle East?

MITCHELL: I don't think the United States government, including the president, has the luxury of waiting until after next month to get engaged. I think we must be engaged immediately, intensively, and, most importantly, with perseverance and patience.

BROWN: Because Iraq changed the timetable and increased the pressure?

MITCHELL: Iraq really is marginal to the conflicts between the Israelis and the Palestinians, they... BROWN: No, but in the -- in terms of how the Middle East views the Americans, and the need to push ahead on the Palestinian-Israeli issue?

MITCHELL: Only in part. The reality is, there is now a moment. You have a change in the Palestinian leadership, which the president has demanded, which the Israeli government has demanded, which the international community has demanded. You have an opportunity when people on both sides have come to realize that life is unbearable, it can't continue in this way, and indefinite conflict is a very unappealing alternative.

Bringing them together is possible, Aaron, despite all of this terrible killing over the past two years, consistently polls show that among both Israelis and Palestinians, two-thirds want a negotiated settlement for two states, and the political process needed to bring it about.

BROWN: Obviously, both sides will have to give up something.

MITCHELL: Yes.

BROWN: The Israelis are going to have -- clearly the Israelis are going to have to give up settlements, whether they have to give them all up or most of them or some of them. Do you believe this is (UNINTELLIGIBLE) -- and I know what they say, do you believe this Israeli government is, in fact, prepared to do that?

MITCHELL: It is, and I believe that it will. In fact, Aaron, if you go back and look at Camp David and then Taba, and then the statement that President Clinton made in January of 2001, essentially synthesizing the two of them, most of the Israeli top officials will tell that you that settlements would not have been the obstacle to agreement at that time.

I think they will do what is necessary to be done. They don't want to do it in advance, because they want to hold it as a chit. Just as the Palestinians, I think, have come to recognize that they cannot get the unrestricted right of return of refugees that they want, but they don't want to give it up in advance. They want to hold it back.

There's no trust. They want to wait to get into the negotiations and get something for any concessions they make.

BROWN: Would you like to be in this?

MITCHELL: I told the president and the secretary of state when we delivered our report that our commission, which was a five-member, it's not just me, it's Senator Rudman and three Europeans, that we agreed that I would be authorized to say we would be at the disposal of the administration if they wanted to use us. But that's a decision for the president to make.

BROWN: Nice to see you, sir.

MITCHELL: Thank you, Aaron, nice to see you.

BROWN: It's always good to see you. Former senator George Mitchell.

Take a break here, we come back, segment seven. And still another in our series of still lifes from the war in Iraq. Short break first. This is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: As most of you know by now, something we like to do on the program is bring you the work of different still photographers, and they these days are in Iraq. Tonight, Ben Lowy of "TIME" magazine, covering the dramatic, at times bloody march of Iraqi Shi'ites this week, and the startling discoveries of American cash, and a lot of it, in Baghdad.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BENJAMIN LOWY, PHOTOGRAPHER, "TIME" MAGAZINE (voice-over): My name's Benjamin Lowy. I'm a photographer at "TIME" magazine.

There is a car filled with $350 million U.S., and they parked this car, before the war started, in a parking lot in front of the Palestine Hotel. The night manager had gone to Jalabi in a way to cut a deal to make sure that he could play a part in the next government, and revealed the location of this money in hopes that it could be used for the Iraqi people and be part of the new government.

They just transported it out of the armored vehicle into a vault protected by soldiers with the 3rd Infantry Division.

I held my college education in one hand. I went to Karbala the same day.

It's definitely a (UNINTELLIGIBLE) place. You have to be careful to actually respect what they're doing. They have knives, and they cut themselves. The Hussein, who the Mosque of Hussein is named after, was decapitated in the final battle for this town. And part of cutting their heads using the swords cut the top of their heads, is kind of reminiscent of what happened to him.

And also part of this is a celebration of mourning.

They use these chained whips to hit themselves in a long procession that marched around the two central mosques, these long lines of young men hitting themselves with these chains as a form of self-punishment. Definitely a peaceful of moment when they actually go pray. But it's -- everyone (UNINTELLIGIBLE) themselves.

It went on for two straight days right through the night, and this was just one image from the middle of the night, where you see this just kid, completely exhausted, sitting on a curb.

Because they can (UNINTELLIGIBLE) down to Karbala for the first time in 35 years and have this tremendous religious experience that the Shi'a Muslim religion dictates that they do. I mean, that's tremendous.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Ben Lowy shooting for "TIME" magazine.

That ends the first hour of NEWSNIGHT. But wait, there's more. Stay with us. Coming up in the second hour, we'll spend considerable time on the SARS story. Chinese seem to be taking it much more seriously, and the Canadians are up in arms about it. We will talk with the mayor of Toronto, and we'll preview the first manned space launch since "Columbia," the accident, scheduled about 24 hours from now.

But first a break, the latest news headlines, and then NEWSNIGHT, hour number two, continues.

(NEWSBREAK)

BROWN: Those are the major headlines of the night. We begin our second hour of NEWSNIGHT with the second whip of the evening. More now on the story of Tariq Aziz. We go first to Baghdad. Nic Robertson there for us.

Nic, a headline?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, the former foreign minister, the lat deputy prime minister or previously just deputy prime minister, his arrest likely to be big news here today. And the people that we've talked to so far say they hope at least to the arrests or apprehension of Saddam Hussein himself -- Aaron?

BROWN: Nic, thank you. To Beijing now, more on the efforts to stop the spread of SARS and more fear as well. Jamie Floracruz is on the phone.

Jamie, a headline?

JAMIE FLORACRUZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, the SARS epidemic continues to spread in China. And the Beijing authorities are now taking drastic and evening painful measures to contain it. We'll tell you more how they're doing about it later -- Aaron?

BROWN: Jamie, thank you very much.

On to Toronto and the latest on the SARS situation there. Jason Carroll had that story tonight. Jason, a headline from you?

JASON CARROLL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, Canadian health officials were stunned and angered over the World Health Organization's decision to issue a travel advisory for Toronto. The WHO is standing by its decision, even though health officials here say that decision was based on outdated information -- Aaron?

BROWN: Jason, thank you. Back to you and the rest coming up shortly in the second hour of NEWSNIGHT. We'll also talk with Toronto's Mayor Mel Lastman about the World Health Organization advisory, telling people not to visit the city unless they must. To say he is livid about that would be an understatement.

And we'll update the case of Zacarias Moussaoui and the big dilemma for the U.S. government. Moussaoui says he needs testimony from al Qaeda detainees to defend himself of charges that he was involved in the 9/11 attacks.

All that and more in the hour ahead. We begin the hour with the big picture from Iraq, a picture tonight with a face to it.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN (voice-over): Apart from Saddam Hussein himself, Tariq Aziz was by far the most visible and recognizable figure of the old Iraqi regime. But he is in American custody tonight, represents at the very least a significant symbolic victory for the coalition.

Tariq Aziz was the deputy prime minister. He'd served as foreign minister and was well known throughout the world.

KEN POLLACK, CNN ANALYST: Tariq Aziz is one of the most visible of the top level leadership. And seeing Tariq Aziz in custody is likely to really start to send the message to Iraqis that Saddam's regime really is finished, and there really is no chance that they're coming back.

BROWN: Tariq Aziz is a Christian. He'd risen through the ranks of the Ba'ath party to its highest levels. Two decades ago, he met with American officials, trying to gain their support in Iraq's war with Iran. And just before this war, he vowed he would never be taken alive.

Meantime in Baghdad, the retired American general in charge of the reconstruction met with dozens of Iraqi leaders. As back in Washington, the Secretary of Defense told Associated Press Television News that it won't be long before some kind of temporary government is formed.

DONALD RUMSFELD, DEFENSE SECRETARY: Some portions of the country have only been free of Saddam Hussein for the last week. So it's a little early to be impatient about it.

BROWN: At the Baghdad meeting, retired General Jay Garner told his audience that only in the north have there been any kind of personal freedom for decades. Experience, he said, that is now valuable.

LT. GEN. JAY GARNER (RET.), OFFICE OF RECONSTRUCTION: The rest of Iraq has been in a dark room with no lights for 35 years. And two weeks ago, we opened a door and pushed him out in the sunlight and they can't see yet. So what we've said is now -- up in the north, they can help by using what they did in assisting the rest of Iraq into the democratic process.

BROWN: Meantime, these three initials, M.S.S., scratched into a wall of a Baghdad prison, were a fascinating hint about the fate of Navy Captain Scott Speicher, declared missing since the first Gulf War.

So far though, nothing else in terms of anything concrete about his fate, about when he was captured, if he was captured, how long he lived, or if he is perhaps still alive.

This home video was seen today for the first time. Training pictures of the Saddam Fedayeen, the guerilla fighters who gave American troops so much trouble in the early days of the war.

At the Iraqi National Museum in Baghdad, a few paintings returned out of the thousands of items looted. No antiquities yet.

And good news from the South. A passenger ferry carrying hundreds of Iraqi exiles docked in Umm Qasr, the first such voyage allowed since the effective end of the war.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: That's the big picture tonight, but this picture is dominated by one face, Tariq Aziz. And we go back to Baghdad and CNN's Nic Robertson -- Nic?

ROBERTSON: Aaron, we still don't yet know exactly where to Tariq Aziz was picked up. We understand it is Baghdad, but we don't where in Baghdad. Although some residents of the city say that in a neighborhood called Zayuma (ph), that is about three miles east of the center of Baghdad, an area where -- that is predominantly a Christian neighborhood, there was a high level of coalition U.S. troop activity late yesterday afternoon Baghdad time. And people believe that that possibly may be related to the arrest of Tariq Aziz.

Tariq Aziz was a Christian. That was a Christian neighborhood. There are a lot of coalition troops there. People in Baghdad putting one and one and one together to make three saying that they think that's where the arrests may have taken place.

What we're hearing from people here today is that they hope that the arrests of Tariq Aziz leads to the apprehension of Saddam Hussein. Many people here still harbor great doubts as to what's happened to the former Iraqi leader. Is he alive? Is he dead? Is he injured? Is he out of the country? Is he hiding somewhere? And the biggest question for all of them is, is he waiting to stage some kind of return to take power in Iraq?

And that's still to this day keeps people held back. It holds them back from speaking their minds on some issues still today -- Aaron?

BROWN: It's remarkable, actually, what -- I mean, the longer we go without finding Saddam or knowing what happens, the larger grows the myth of Saddam.

ROBERTSON: And myths grow very quickly, very large, and to an extent, very bizarre as well. One of those myths is that Saddam Hussein did a deal with President Bush. He's in the United States. And that's why the coalition forces haven't turned him in. And that people say only goes to prove that, you know, the United States and President Bush is against them.

These are very bizarre rumors, but it doesn't stop them circulating and doesn't stop some people believing in them passionately. And Tariq Aziz's arrest may satisfy some people in this community here that the leadership is beginning to be brought down. But that small steps -- the big step would be Saddam Hussein for a lot of them -- Aaron?

BROWN: Nic, thank you very much. Nic Robertson in Baghdad tonight.

The U.S. said early on that restoring power in Iraq was the top priority. They meant that in the literal sense, getting the lights back on, but restoring power in the figurative sense is a top priority now. Iraqi needs leadership and it needs it fast, the country does. But finding leaders acceptable to both the United States and to the Iraqis looks like it'll be a lot harder than getting the lights on.

Here's CNN's Jim Clancy.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JIM CLANCY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): More than three decades of dictatorship and cruelty scarred Iraq's 24 million people. However determined the U.S. may be to bring democracy, the shadow of Saddam Hussein will loom large over its efforts.

GAILAN HAHMOUN RAMTAZ, BAGHDAD UNIVERSITY: There is not greater spell than the imprisonment of the human soul when freedom is lost. Truly, we felt our soul was imprisoned. And that when freedom was lost under Saddam Hussein, and therefore not only our physical world was in jail, our soul was in jail.

CLANCY: Iraq's Shi'ia Muslims, a 60 percent majority long suppressed, have suffered more than most. But their thirst to charge of their lives and Iraq's future instill fears of an Islamic religious state among secular Iraqis.

Many Iraqis find the presence of U.S. forces an affront to the their dignity. They are grateful the U.S. drove Saddam Hussein from power, but wary of trading that dictatorship for domination by a foreign power.

Charged with forging democracy, while rebuilding the infrastructure and institutions of the country, retired U.S. Army Lieutenant Jay Garner faces an uphill battle with high stakes for Iraq, and the Middle East.

LT. GEN. GARNER, OFFICE OF RECONSTRUCTION HUMANITARIAN ASSISTANCE: I think you'll begin to see the governmental process starting probably next week, by the end of next week.

What'll happen once the -- and it's have Iraqi faces on it, is the government by the Iraqis.

CLANCY: Next week, Garner will attempt to bright together 300 or more leading Iraqis to discuss the way forward. He promised to have ministries up and running with Iraqis at the helm of each as soon as possible.

But what is the best course for Iraq if the destination if democracy? Professor Rommies (ph) contends Garner and Iraqis themselves should consider a return of Iraq's constitutional monarchy, to ensure stability and freedom, and give people time to build their nation.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why? Because you have the army, the police force, the civil service, and if I may say, the judiciary, linked to the crown. And therefore outside the area of complex of politics.

In this meeting, if this brought about, as first who -- I honestly believe that some 75 percent of Iraq's political problem, and America's problems in Iraq, would be solved.

The U.S. has repeated charges that Tehran is pushing Shi'ia Muslims in the south towards a religious state, modeled on Iran's Islamic republic. But it's impossible to judge what's real and what is contrived, what Iraqis themselves want for the future. After all, no one has ever asked them.

Jim Clancy, CNN, Baghdad.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

Ahead on NEWSNIGHT, a look at the latest development in the SARS epidemic. From the shutting down of a Beijing hospital to warning travelers about Toronto.

And later, we'll preview the manned space launch since the Columbia tragedy. Take a break first. This is NEWSLIGHT on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: We saw an image today of a man being held behind gates with a handful of others, flashing a peace sign. He was not some prisoner of war. He's one of the thousands in Beijing under quarantine tonight, part of the battle against a deadly and elusive enemy, the enemy being SARS.

Many people say the Chinese government waited too long to start the fight. And not it seems when they do take dramatic steps, as they did once again today, the fear only gets dramatically worse.

The latest from Beijing and CNN's Jamie Floracruz.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

FLORACRUZ (voice-over): A funeral van pulls into the back door of the Beijing University Peoples' Hospital, now closed off and quarantined because of the SARS outbreak.

After playing down SARS for months, Chinese authorities are taking drastic measures to break the chain of infections. Beijing's communist party chief has vowed to identify all those with symptoms and not let a single SARS case escape.

They have degreed that all people in public places suspected of SARS infections will be quarantined. Schools have been closed, pupils sent home for two weeks.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (through translator) I'm not too happy about this long vacation because there will be too much homework.

FLORACRUZ: To step the spread of SARS, public places are periodically sprayed with disinfectant. At the Beijing Airport, passengers are now required to go through infrared devices to screen them of SARS symptoms, like high fever.

These measures so far have failed to stop the spread of the disease in the Chinese capitol.

PETER HUMPHREY, RISK MANAGEMENT ANALYST: The SARS crisis has really underlined significant political weaknesses in the Chinese state, professional weaknesses among Chinese government officials.

FLORACRUZ: As Chinese and foreign travelers scrambled to leave Beijing, the World Health Organization has put Beijing on the list of places to avoid for non-essential travel.

In some neighborhoods, fear of quarantine has triggered panic buying of daily goods, like rice, cooking oils, and instant noodles.

(END VIDEOPTAPE)

FLORACRUZ: Aaron, the SARS situation here remains grim and the continued spread of SARS is testing the crisis management capability of the Chinese leadership. It's also taxing the patience and reticence of the more than 12 million residents of Beijing who are now confronting this mysterious and deadly disease -- Aaron?

BROWN: Jaime, thank you. Jaime Floracruz in Beijing tonight for us.

And now to the city hit hardest by SARS outside of Asia, a city deeply afraid that it's that distinction it will now be known for. It's Toronto, a place that stems its SARS outbreak to one 78 year old grandma who had just come back from Hong Kong.

Toronto's mayor is outraged that the World Health Organization is now warning people not to visit a city unless they must. You'll hear from him in a moment.

But first, the latest from Toronto and CNN's Jason Carroll.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CARROLL (voice-over): Toronto, the city with the world's tallest structure, clean streets and now SARS. The World Health Organization has issued an advisory warning against all non essential travel. Canadian officials outraged and filed a formal letter of protest Thursday, saying that WHO used outdated and incorrect information. PAUL GULLY, DR., SENIOR DIRECTOR GENERAL POPULATION AND PUBLIC HEALTH: It is a mystery that they came to the conclusion they did with the information that was available.

DON LOW, DR., MOUNT SINAI HOSP.: This is at WHO. And if they're setting the standards for the world, and this is how they do it. This is a bad message to send.

CARROLL: The WHO issued the travel advisory after it determined SARS was continuing (unintelligible.) Canada says there are 135 probable cases in the city, of $4.2 million.

Yet the WHO has marked it as a threat to international travel, making Toronto the only destination outside China under such a strong advisory.

KLAUS SCORE, WORLD HEALTH ORGANZATION: Only a small number of cases has been exported from Toronto. For instance, to the Philippines, as well as to Australia.

Now the outbreak in Toronto began also -- was one case, one case which was exported from another country, to Toronto. And they are now more than 100 people affected.

CARROLL: Despite the advisory, the U.S. Centers for Disease Control say they aren't ready to discourage Toronto travel.

JULIE GERBERDING, DIRECTOR, CDC: Our understanding of the information we have available right now is that U.S. citizens traveling to Canada are not at risk for SARS if they stay out of hospitals.

CARROLL: Economists say the outbreak could cost Canada $30 million a day, the tourism industry hit especially hard.

RON SEILING, GREATER TORONTO HOTEL ASSOCIATION: It's like a snowball rolling down the hill at you. And what we need to do is be able to reverse that snowball.

CARROLL: Hotel bookings are at their lowest level since September 11. Even major baseball is reacting. Attendance is still strong, but players have been warned now to sign autographs. And at least one Kansas City Royals player has suggested a serious schedule to start Friday. He moved to his team's home field.

Not good for a city named by their hero and Indians, Toronto, their word for meeting place.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KING : And this travel advisory will remain place for three weeks. At the end of that time, the WHO will decide if it should stay in effect -- Aaron?

BROWN: Jason, thank you. Jason Carroll, who's in Toronto tonight. The job of a big city mayor doesn't draw many shy, retiring types. And Toronto's mayor is no exception. Mel Lastman was quick to slam the WHO travel advisory. We talked with Mayor Lastman a little bit earlier tonight.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Mayor, you're obviously disappointed in the WHO advisory. On the facts, though, where is the WHO mistaken?

MEL LASTMAN, MAYOR, TORONTO: They don't know what they're talking about. I don't know who this group is. I've never heard of them before. I had never seen them before. Who did they talk to? They haven't even been to Toronto. They're located somewhere in Geneva. And they haven't talked to us all. They read the papers and sometimes the papers exaggerate. And that's what's happened right here. And I want -- I invite them. I want them to come to Toronto this weekend. I want them to see what we've been doing, like the CDC were here.

That's the Center for Disease Control in Atlanta. The United States are our direct neighbors. And the CDC said Toronto is doing -- you're a model for the world in what you're doing.

Look, we have 1500 people in quarantine at one time. We're down to 180. We haven't had one people -- one person get SARS in the last seven days. And if we go 20 days, we've beaten it.

BROWN: Well, and that -- isn't that exactly what the WHO is saying, is that they need to see three weeks of no new illness before they will reevaluate the advisory?

LASTMAN: They want to wait three weeks. In the meantime, they're hurting Toronto badly. We depend greatly on tourism. We get 22 million tourists a year. And it's hurting. Yes, our city is continuing. They're moving the way they always do. They're working. The malls are jammed. But the hotels aren't doing much business. And the restaurants aren't.

We need the tourists. And they're hurting us. And to wait three weeks is ridiculous, when they haven't even been here in the first place.

BROWN: How many SARS cases do you know of in the Toronto area right now?

LASTMAN: Well, you see what we do is, we don't take any chances. We play it safe. Like 500 people went to the Philippines, Manila, Hong Kong, and back to Toronto. We -- and one or two of them had it. We took all 500 and we quarantined all 500.

There have been in total about 8500 people who have been quarantined, but not all 8500 had SARS.

BROWN: Do you know how many...

LASTMAN: Only a fraction of them had it -- SARS.

BROWN: Do you know how many?

LASTMAN: I'm not sure the exact amount, but it's a fraction of that.

BROWN: Do you have any feel yet for how much this has cost the city government or the provincial government?

LASTMAN: Well, I know at the end of the 20 days, we will be coming out with a $25 million advertising campaign to let the world know, and that's only phase 1, to let the world know that Toronto is safe. You know, if it's safe enough to live here, it's safe enough to visit here. And let me tell you, it is safe. And people are not -- there's not that many people walking around wearing masks, surgical masks.

BROWN: Would you say that the people -- that the residents of Toronto are too nervous about SARS right now, that they are too afraid?

LASTMAN: Some people are, yes. But most people aren't. You got to the malls, the malls are jammed. You use our city transit system, there's a million people a year using the transit system. We're -- people are still working, and they're still doing everything that they always do.

BROWN: Just two other things on that. Major League Baseball said yesterday that they recommend their players not use the public transportation system. I gather you're not very happy about that either?

LASTMAN: No, that's ridiculous. I use it. And I'm going to be using it. And I'm going to be staying at a hotel in Toronto with my wife. And I am going to be going to -- I got to restaurants in Toronto. And I'll be going to more restaurants. I'll be doing a lot of this all next week.

BROWN: And just -- are you at all concerned, you must be somewhat concerned, that you might lose the All-Star game this summer?

LASTMAN: Yes, I am.

BROWN: Yes.

LASTMAN: Toronto is a sports city. And in the past, we've won quite a few championships. And I want to keep winning more. And I want this All-Star game. And we are going -- we are beating this. You know, it's almost gone. We've turned the corner. Our medical officer of health today made a statement, we've turned the corner and all we have to do is go two more weeks and we're all set.

BROWN: Well, that seems to be what the WHO is saying, whether they've been there or not. This is a most difficult time for your city. We appreciate some of your time to talk with us about it tonight. Thank you, mayor.

LASTMAN: Aaron, I thank you. BROWN: Thank you, sir.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Mel Lastman, the mayor of Toronto, Canada, Toronto, Ontario, Canada.

Until the crash of Columbia, shuttle launches got little attention. Russian Soyuz launches even less so. That won't be the case tomorrow night when a Soyuz rocket lifts off for the international space station. The launch this time driven by necessity, by logistics, and in no small part, by a need to heal.

A preview now from CNN's Miles O'Brien.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MILES O'BRIEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It is not the mission they signed up for. NASA astronaut Ed Lu and Russian cosmonaut Yuri Malenchenko were supposed to be in space for nearly two months by now, midway to a busy mission, adding new pieces to the international space station.

But all of that changed when Columbia broke apart over Texas on February 1st.

YURI MALENCHENKO, EXPEDITION SEVEN COMMANDER: (through translator) We were all very shocked. It was a great tragedy. And immediately, it became clear that everything will change from this moment.

O'BRIEN: Instead of building, they will be tending, keeping the lights on, and the dream alive.

ED LU, EXPEDITION SEVEN FLIGHT ENGINEER: It's going to be more of a challenge, obviously, but I think we'll have a really good time with it. That's our plan.

O'BRIEN: NASA's plan is to rely on the Russians to provide transportation to and from the international space station, while the shuttle fleet is grounded. The venerable Soyuz spacecraft will tote the crews, unmanned progress supply ships will carry the freight.

It is a lot to ask of the cash strapped Russians, but no one likes the alternative, moth-balling the orbiting outpost.

MALENCHENKO: (through translator) As far as keeping this station manned is concerned, I don't think it is too problematic. We have resources. They might be limited, but we do have them to continue the flight and to continue with our program.

O'BRIEN: But it will be a scaled down effort. Crew size is capped at two instead of three. And the space farers will have to conserve their...

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Coming up on NEWSNIGHT tonight, putting an accused terrorist on trial. Should Zacarias Moussaoui, for example, have the same rights before and during a trial as anyone else? This is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWS ALERT)

BROWN: The latest now on the case of Zacarias Moussaoui, a case that it is fair to say has caused a few headaches for the U.S. government. Moussaoui, you'll recall, is the only person charged with conspiring in the 9/11 attacks. His decision to represent himself have threatened to turn the proceedings into a circus.

But it is a different issue that may bring this case to a breaking point. It involves someone Moussaoui wants to interview, someone the United States government has no intention of making available.

Here's CNN's Kelli Arena.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KELLI ARENA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Some government officials are calling it the "Moussaoui Morass." The case against Zacarias Moussaoui, the only person charged in connection with the September 11 attacks, has been one legal wrangle after another.

The most contentious issue, Moussaoui's demand for access to al Qaeda detainees and the government's vehement refusal. The judge overseeing the case, Leonie Brinkema, just ordered the government to show Moussaoui its classified proposal on how to reach common ground. Defense attorneys say it's a matter of constitutional rights.

GEORGE HARRIS, JOHN WALKER LINDH ATTORNEY: The defendant preparing for trial is a matter of Fifth Amendment due process rights and at trial is a matter of Sixth Amendment right to compel witnesses to testify on his behalf, you know, has a right to access to those material witnesses.

ARENA: Moussaoui wants access to al Qaeda operative Ramsey Binalshibh who, sources say, told U.S. interrogators it was decided Moussaoui would not participate in 9/11. The judge had ruled Moussaoui could interview Binalshibh through a closed circuit hookup, but the government appealed, citing national security concerns and argued the courts have no right to engage in - quote - "second- guessing quintessentially military and intelligence judgements about the detention of combatants overseas." Binalshibh is still undergoing interrogation.

RUTH WEDGWOOD, INTERNATIONAL LAW PROFESSOR, JOHNS HOPKINS UNIVERSITY: You would wholly interrupt the rhythm of the interview process, change its psychology.

ARENA: The case was supposed to be wrapped up before the first anniversary of the terror attacks on New York and Washington. Instead, experts say it is headed for a major legal collision.

KENDALL COFFEY, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY: There's going to be a loser in that coalition if it stays in a civilian court where they're going to see damage to national security or we're going to see some bending, breaking or folding of the rights under the U.S. Constitution.

ARENA: Coffey and other experts say that is why certain terrorism trials need to be taken out of civilian courts and brought to a military tribunal.

(on camera): Government sources say that is exactly where this case is headed if the government is forced to produce al Qaeda detainees.

Kelli Arena, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Well in terms of Moussaoui, we know what he is charged with, we know his plea, we know he had access to lawyers but decided to represent himself. We know all this because the government made a decision to try him in civilian court and that assures him of some rights.

The people who are an utter mystery to us are the hundreds of detainees being held at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba, not prisoners of war, but unlawful combatants, as the U.S. calls them, without any rights to due process at all. Their legal limbo is troubling to many.

We're joined tonight from Washington by Georgetown University law professor Neal Katyal.

Good to have you with us.

NEAL KATYAL, PROFESSOR OF LAW, GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY LAW CENTER: Good to be here.

BROWN: Do you doubt that the -- is it that you doubt that the government has the right to classify someone not as a prisoner of war but in this somewhat unique category of enemy combatant or unlawful combatant?

KATYAL: Well the category of unlawful combatant is certainly one that's been established for many years. The question is really who decides who is an unlawful or enemy combatant. And here the administration's taken the view that the president alone decides these things, the he will alone decide the procedures that will take place once someone is determined to be an enemy combatant, who the judges will be at that trial, who the prosecutors will be and everything else. And so under the Geneva Conventions and other established law you need to have more than simply one person's unilateral say-so no matter who that one person may be.

BROWN: And -- all right, so what does the Geneva Convention tell us about this category of detainee and what, if any, enforcement mechanism is there anyway?

KATYAL: Well there isn't much of an enforcement mechanism. I think like most international treaties it relies much more on the kind of goodwill and observance of the parties. But it does say that the decision over who is an unlawful combatant should be decided by a competent tribunal, and a competent tribunal certainly can't be the same authority who's classifying the person as an unlawful combatant.

BROWN: It is - part of what is complicating here, isn't it, professor, is that these hundreds of people, and we don't really know how many and we don't know who they are and we don't know what countries they come from. We learned just the other day some of them are as young as 15, maybe younger than that. That they are being held in Cuba as opposed to the United States.

KATYAL: Yes. Yes, Aaron, I think there are several issues there. One is the Justice Department for many years has kind of thought about what places strategically can we put people, detainees and so on, where they have fewer rights. And it's been done normally as a temporary emergency measure, whereas in this administration, it's done consciously. We've put these people in Cuba where they have fewer rights.

And then they've done -- we've done so in a way in which we don't know how many people are there, as you say, why they're there, how long they'll stay. Remember the president has said that he can keep these people there in Cuba detained indefinitely without even military tribunals or other forms of trial. So we're talking about something that can go on for many years with literally no review by a federal judge. The administration has said that federal judges have no business with the detainments in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, that it's only up to them, the administration, to decide what process is fit for them.

BROWN: When you worked in the Clinton administration, you had these conversations about using Guantanamo. In the end, why did you reject it?

KATYAL: Well, there were any number of reasons, you know, having to do with the specific facts back in the last administration. It has been used, as I said, in the first Bush administration temporarily to detain Haitian refugees and so on, but never in the kind of long- standing, permanent way. And as you say, never in a circumstance, at least to our knowledge, in which 13 to 15-year-old boys are being detained, which is, you know, I think at least if not a clear violation, an arguable violation of various international agreements that we've made.

BROWN: As quickly as you can, why should we care?

KATYAL: We're talking about a country that is the beacon for international human rights, the United States of America. We're fighting this war in the name of liberty. And we're detaining people, we don't even know how many people, we don't know why we're detaining them, what they've done. We don't know what the procedures will be for adjudicating, if any, their guilt, and we're doing so in a way that is just -- makes a mockery of what we -- this country's about.

If we really think we have a case against these people, we should do so and bring these cases, the way we do every other criminal case in America, not in these secretive military tribunals or not in Cuba, but bring these people to America and let's have the trials that the Justice Department says they are so confident they can win.

BROWN: Professor, good to have you with us tonight.

KATYAL: Thank you.

BROWN: Interesting comments. Thank you very much.

Ahead on NEWSNIGHT, we'll like take a look at tomorrow's news tonight. We'll check morning papers from around the country and around the world, but a break first. This is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: OK, time to check morning papers from around the country and around the world. That would be tomorrow morning's papers.

It's already tomorrow morning in China. Here's the "China Post," which is Taiwan, by the way, or at least people -- we still call it that. I always get confused about that. Hospital sealed -- Ho Ping Hospital sealed. I like the picture. See if you can get a tight shot of the picture. People being held in quarantine and not very happy about it. OK. They managed to -- "New York Times" didn't get us a paper today. I don't know what happened.

But "The Oregonian" managed to. The newspaper Portland, Oregon, and there was something about this, they had an earthquake out west. Kelley Point quake jars nerves. And down at the bottom, another Republican senator, this time Gordon Smith, Republican of Oregon, chides as hurtful Santorum views on gays. Gordon Smith, one of the more interesting Republicans, he's had a kind of transformation over his time in office.

About a minute to go here. "The Charlotte" -- forget that, it's a nice newspaper. I don't want to do it because I don't have much time.

UAW -- this is "The Detroit News," UAW, United Auto Workers, sinks 10 percent -- ranks sink 10 percent in 2002. There's always or almost always an auto related story on the front page of the Detroit papers, plural because they have two morning papers. Here is the "Detroit Free Press." How can SUVs be safer at the top? And down in the corner, DaimlerChrysler's outlook is skeptical. Do you realize how many auto stories you miss by not living in Detroit?

And the Manchester "Union Leader," what struck me about this is how local the newspaper had gone. I have no problem with that. That's what a newspaper should do. Murder suspect arrested, local story. Barrington death likely a homicide, the local story. Two guys shoplifting, OK, they busted two guys from New York shoplifting. That made the front page. That's a quick look at morning -- anyway, it's a good newspaper. A quick look at morning papers, and we'll be back with something. We'll take a break first.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Earlier in the program you heard John King describe the Army tank plant in Lima, Ohio as the perfect backdrop for a president fresh from victory in Iraq. It's also perfect for something else, a way to show the need to jumpstart the economy. Lima, Ohio has seen better days.

Here's CNN's Candy Crowley.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SR. POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The state wants to close the Lima Correctional Institution. It will save budget-crunched Ohio $60 million. It will cost Lima 500 jobs, about 400,000 in lost income and all those other things that happen when a city bleeds jobs.

CRAIG BRADFORD, LIMA CORRECTIONAL OFFICER: It's already impacted me. I was looking to buy a house. And as soon as this came down, all that got put on hold.

CROWLEY: The joke here is that Lima is an acronym for lost in Middle America. This is a town that has survived the Rust Belt era, when traditional manufacturing jobs went overseas. But Lima found a new way of life building Abrams tanks for the Army. Then the Clinton administration downsized defense and almost 4,000 tank plant jobs shrank to 700. Lima kept moving. And the mayor had a vision of downtown rejuvenation with business and retail, and now this.

DAVID BERGER, MAYOR OF LIMA, OHIO: The economy here is pretty soft, very difficult circumstances. And we've had a variety of cutbacks from public sources, state and federal sources. But, also, we've seen over the last year and a half a real downsizing begin to take place in the private sector again.

CROWLEY: They've cut the city payroll by 15 percent. The school system, with a $3 million deficit, will lay off 38 teachers and 24 support staff.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The feds cut off money to the state. The state cuts down off money to the locals. And the local people are dealt to figure things out. And it's been awful tough.

CROWLEY: And it may get tougher. Remember the tank plant, the one the president visited? The Abrams contract is complete in June of next year. Without new business, the Lima tank plant work force shrinks further.

RICK GILLETTE, VICE PRESIDENT, GENERAL DYNAMICS: I'm talking about the 25, 30, up to even 40 percent, depending on what we're doing at that time in 2004. And when you say it trickles down, it also trickles down to our vendor base.

CROWLEY: What's surprising is, they don't really blame George Bush for the economy. This is a Republican city. They like him. But you hear no great drumbeat for a tax cut on the streets of Lima, not that they couldn't use a little money. It's just, they don't see what that will do to help what ails Lima.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And the working man, he don't feel like he might be able to go out and buy a TV or a toaster or a microwave oven. And the corporations get the breaks. It's simple as that, you know? How many microwaves do you have to sell to boost the economy?

CROWLEY: Ask them what Lima does need, the answer you get is, not a tax cut, not even government help. The answer you get is: jobs.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think this city has a lot to offer people. I think it has a very strong work force. It just needs a break. It just needs a break.

CROWLEY: Candy Crowley, CNN, Lima, Ohio.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: And that's all for tonight. Join us tomorrow for the Friday edition of NEWSNIGHT. We'll do two hours then, too. We'll see you then, 10:00 Eastern Time. Goodnight for all of us.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com





Talks With North Korea Are Unproductive; CEO of American Airlines Steps Down; More Americans Concerned About Economy Than National Security>


Aired April 24, 2003 - 22:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, HOST: Good evening again, everyone.
Early this year, before the war, Tariq Aziz said this. "Do you expect me, after all of my history as a militant and as one of the Iraqi leaders, to go to an American prisoner, to go to Guantanamo? I would prefer to die," he said.

Well, this isn't a hypothetical any more. The United States has him, and we'll spend a lot of time tonight on the many questions it raises. How did they get him? What does he know? Will he end up in an American prison?

The answers may be a long time in coming. But this we know for sure, the best-known face of the regime, aside from Saddam Hussein himself, is now, as Central Command put it, under coalition control.

So the whip begins tonight with the story of Tariq Aziz and CNN's David Ensor leads it off. David, a headline from you.

DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, Tariq Aziz turned himself in to U.S. authorities in Baghdad today, Aaron, and though he's only the Eight of Spades in the Pentagon's deck of cards of wanted Iraqis, there are intelligence officials who are hopeful he may know something about Saddam Hussein, and he may know something about weapons of mass destruction.

BROWN: David, thank you. Back to you at the top.

More on Tariq Aziz from Baghdad tonight, Nic Robertson there for us. Nic, a headline.

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, Tariq Aziz, a friend of Saddam Hussein's since the late 1950s, rising to the top of the Ba'ath Party, the ruling Ba'ath Party, by the late 1970s. Many people in this city hoping that his arrest will lead to the arrest of Saddam Hussein.

BROWN: Nic, thank you.

The president was traveling today, talking about Iraq and the economy.

Senior White House correspondent John King with us tonight. John, a headline. JOHN KING, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, a trip to Ohio, hardball politics trying to sell his tax cut, amid fresh evidence the war has strengthened the president's political standing. But there's also plenty of new evidence that does not translate at all into support for his tax cut plan.

BROWN: John, thank you.

And a big development in an ugly controversy involving executives at American Airlines. Greg clarkin on that. He is at American headquarters in Fort Worth, Texas. Greg, a headline.

GREG CLARKIN, CNN FINANCIAL CORRESPONDENT: And Aaron, a major management blunder has cost Don Carty his job as head of American Airlines. But even with a new management team in place, the world's largest airline still faces a possible bankruptcy filing, Aaron.

BROWN: Greg, thank you. Back to you and the rest shortly.

Also coming up tonight on NEWSNIGHT, former senator George Mitchell on the outlook for peace between the Israelis and the Palestinians. He knows the region and the struggle to find the right road map better than most.

And the latest in our series of still photographers. Tonight, Ben Lowy of "TIME" magazine, who captured some very gripping images from this week's religious pilgrimage in Karbala in Iraq.

That and more in the hour ahead.

But we begin with the surrender of Tariq Aziz.

For years, he was the smooth-talking, English-speaking, smiling face of the Iraqi regime, often seeming to be the reasonable face of a most unreasonable regime.

Tonight he is in custody. Whether he has important information to provide is less than clear, but the symbolic importance of his surrender cannot be underestimated.

CNN's David Ensor begins our coverage.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ENSOR (voice-over): Tariq Aziz turned himself in to U.S. authorities in Baghdad Thursday, officials say, the day after an intermediary had approached them to say he was interested in doing so. A knowledgeable official says no promises were made to Aziz. Quote, "We don't make deals."

For the regime's best-known English-speaking spokesman, its deputy prime minister, the decision must have been difficult, a decision he recently insisted he would never make.

TARIQ AZIZ, IRAQI DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER: Do you expect me, after all of my history as a militant and as an Iraqi, one of the Iraqi leaders, to go to an American prison, to go to Guantanamo? I would prefer to die. I prefer to die.

ENSOR: Responding to shouted questions about Aziz, President Bush gave a thumbs-up, and U.S. officials are clearly delighted by the development.

KEN POLLACK, CNN ANALYST: He was a face who all Iraqis knew, who all the world knew. And for many Iraqis, knowing that he is in captivity will hopefully reassure them that Saddam's regime really is finished. It's not going to be able to come back to bite them.

ENSOR: Though Aziz was only the Eight of Spades in the Pentagon's deck of wanted Iraqis, an official says, he was "pretty well wired." He "may know who survived" the air strikes on leadership targets, including whether Saddam Hussein himself is still alive.

Aziz may also know the location of other senior leaders still hiding in Baghdad.

As for weapons of mass destruction, U.S. officials doubt that Tariq Aziz can tell them where weapons are to be found, but believe he may be able to confirm their existence.

An Iraqi Catholic who met recently with the pope, the 67-year-old Aziz enjoyed the perks of power in the Ba'ath Party regime of Saddam Hussein. As looters and journalists found after Baghdad fell, he lived in much greater comfort than most Iraqis. But that was before he had to go into hiding.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ENSOR: Clearly, the first questions for Tariq Aziz from U.S. officials, does he know whether Saddam Hussein survived the air strikes March 20 and April 8 and where is Saddam now, Aaron.

BROWN: Well, this is intriguing. Is there any process in place that we know of to try any of these cards in the deck of cards for war crimes?

ENSOR: Well, the U.S. has said it will hold those that believes responsible for war crimes, responsible for them. It has not been made clear how the U.S. intends to do that. There's been some debate and discussion about whether there should be a separate sort of Hague- style court set up, an international court.

Suggestions also that the Iraqis may be asked to set up their own system, that they should set up the system, that the crimes were mostly against Iraqis in the first place. And it may be that view that prevails, but nothing's been decided yet, Aaron.

BROWN: And in any case, for now, it's the Americans that control him, and he is somewhere, and do we know where?

ENSOR: He's probably in or near Baghdad, which may be where a lot of the other leadership still are hiding in that city.

BROWN: David, thank you. CNN's David Ensor, who's been working the Tariq Aziz story tonight.

Heard a lot over the last few weeks about how quickly word spreads in Baghdad when there's important news to be told. It is early morning there now. The news has been out for a few hours. We assume people are just now getting some of it.

CNN's Nic Robertson is there.

ROBERTSON: Aaron, there was news late yesterday of a lot of activity in a Christian neighborhood of Baghdad by coalition forces. A lot of U.S. troops went into Al Zuama (ph) neighborhood about three miles east of the center of Baghdad.

We don't know this for sure, but this may have had something to do with the arrest of Tariq Aziz.

But what people have been telling us about overnight here, and we expect to hear more of it this morning as people head out onto the streets, is that they hope that Tariq Aziz's arrest will lead to tracking down Saddam Hussein.

Many people here, perhaps counter to what we would expect them to think, still believe that Saddam Hussein may yet come back, may yet reenergize elements of his army and try and take power, try and take control, and they want proof. People here want proof he is either dead, injured, or captured.

So their focus will be very likely on Tariq Aziz, is, can he provide the coalition this critical information that will track Saddam Hussein down for them? That's probably the most important thing, Aaron.

BROWN: Their relationship was a political relationship and a personal relationship?

ROBERTSON: It appears to have started early, at least, because of political shed, political beliefs, Arab socialism, that's what Aziz said started him on his track towards the Ba'ath Party back in the late 1950s. Indeed, Aziz recounts in his early life that he remembers a deal being struck between the British authorities and the Iraqi authorities to share military bases, to share naval bases, air bases as well.

And he said at that time, he, Aziz, took to the streets in protests. So likely he found common ideological cause with Saddam Hussein, and, because of that, rose to very senior ranks within the regime.

But were they really close? Was anyone really close to Saddam Hussein? They certainly had to play the game that way, otherwise their fate could be entirely uncertain.

He did, perhaps, appear to fall out of favor in more recent years. His son was arrested for a few months on suspicion of corruption, that there, possibly there a power struggle between Aziz's son and one of Saddam, one of Saddam Hussein's sons, that's unclear. But Aziz not the prominent international player in the later years that he was earlier on. So perhaps an indication there he fell out of favor with Saddam Hussein. Not clear, Aaron.

BROWN: Was the fact that he was the guy out there so much, particularly in the run-up to the first Gulf War, is that an indication of his political place in the Ba'ath Party, or was it just, in some respects, that he was a smooth talker, spoke English well, knew the niceties of diplomacy?

ROBERTSON: He was all of those things. Likely high on that list as well would be that he could be trusted to continually put the party position in the best possible light, to spin things as best as possible.

He studied at Baghdad's School of Fine Arts. He did come away with a degree in English. He did go on to teach, and then go into journalism, and perhaps in journalism, he learned how to craft his words most effectively, and that was his primary use by the regime. It seems to use those well-crafted words to interface with the rest of the world.

And that's where -- that is what he is remembered most for, and perhaps it's those insights that he's going to be able to provide now to the coalition, Aaron.

BROWN: And just a quick final one. Was he as well known within Iraq, within Baghdad, as he seemed to be known to the outside world?

ROBERTSON: Absolutely, and perhaps that provides us with a key to why Aziz decided that the route of turning himself in, of striking a deal through an intermediary, was perhaps one of the only routes left open to him. He appeared on television many, many, many occasions.

He was absolutely well known through at least the last two decades on Iraqi television as being a true and keen and close Ba'ath Party member close to Saddam Hussein. And his face was so well known, it would be unthinkable that he would have been able to walk the streets of Baghdad and even get out of the country somehow.

BROWN: And just on one thing that David Ensor mentioned, is there in Baghdad, you have been in other parts of the country too, is there a concern or a feeling that Saddam may come back, that he may reconstitute the army in some way and try and retake power?

ROBERTSON: This is so fundamental to people's fears here. It plays into their paranoia, if you will. It plays into rumors about all sorts of things. People here still talk about a deal between Saddam Hussein and the United States, we -- Saddam Hussein and President Bush.

Why do they say this? Because they say there's no proof that Saddam Hussein is dead. He destroyed our country. He sold out to the United States. It's all part of a big deal. That's why the United States troops haven't been able to find him yet, because he is living in the United States.

They -- people here are taking a long time to get over the fact that a man who was so cruel and harsh to them can truly be gone. And it is -- and it, perhaps, is one of those critical issues that will convince people here that a change has come about. Otherwise it could perhaps take months, even years, Aaron.

And it does play into these most bizarre, bizarre rumors. But we hear them from so many different people.

BROWN: Nic, thank you. Nic Robertson, who is in Baghdad this morning for him.

So will Tariq Aziz will wake up someday in Guantanamo? Will there be a war crimes trial? How might this all play out?

We are joined from Washington tonight by former U.S. attorney Joseph diGenova, who says there's a lot of precedent here for a major war crimes trial.

Joe, it's good to see you.

JOSEPH DIGENOVA, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY: (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

BROWN: Who sets the rules? What is a war crime?

DIGENOVA: Well, war crimes are defined by international law, more specifically by the Geneva Conventions and some preceding treaties. But actually the victors set the stage for this.

Mr. Aziz and, including, by the way, not only Mr. Aziz, but almost everybody in the foreign ministry, including the former ambassador to the U.N., Mr. Aldouri, who quickly left the United States in recent days, they would be tried in military -- Mr. Aziz could be tried in a military tribunal in the war zone itself, because he is a member of the revolutionary war council. He could also...

BROWN: Of what crime?

DIGENOVA: Well, he could be tried for crimes against American soldiers, which were committed in those zones, which include the treatment of the POWs, the murder of the POWs in custody. He could also then be tried in Iraqi courts for crimes against Iraqi civilians, those who were used as human shields, those who were killed by the military because they would not cooperate.

He could then also be tried under international law and the Geneva Conventions before an international tribunal, such as the ones which are at work in Kosovo in the Balkans.

BROWN: Is it necessary to show that he specifically ordered something or did something, that he took a specific action? Or is it enough to say, Look, he's a member of the government. He was the deputy prime minister. The government was bad, so is he.

DIGENOVA: It would depend on the particular crime with which he's charged. Under the Von Ribbentrapp (ph) precedent from the Nurenberg trials, as you know, Von Ribbentrapp was the foreign minister of Nazi Germany, was aware of the plans, was their defender in public, not only very much like Tariq Aziz, in fact, Tariq Aziz is, in fact, the Von Ribbentrapp of the reign of terror of Saddam Hussein.

He would have not had to known about specific acts. He would have had to have known about the policies, for example, to exterminate the Kurds, to exterminate the Shi'as. His knowledge and participation in the government, particularly since he was a senior official in the revolutionary war council and had been since 1974 a military figure, he would be liable for the acts committed on the orders in which he participated in making.

BROWN: But they have to show that he participated in making the order, don't they?

DIGENOVA: He would -- they would have to show that he participated in the decision-making process that led to the policies. He would not necessarily have to be involved in the specific order to kill anyone.

BROWN: Is this -- is it important, in some way, to either the United States government or the international community, that whether it's Mr. Aziz or others in the government, that they be brought before an international tribunal?

DIGENOVA: I think it's important that at some point that happen. I don't think it's necessarily -- necessary that it be the first tribunal that they are brought before.

I actually think it would be very important that he be tried in Iraqi courts by Iraqi judges and lawyers, with the assistance of some international jurists. International law provides for he -- for the fact that he can be tried in his own country.

I think that should happen first. I think after that, the international community then has every right in the world to bring him and others to trial for the international human rights violations, which go well beyond things that would be covered in those trials, and there can be successive prosecutions for these various acts.

BROWN: He -- I -- let me just go back to the question. I think what I -- where I think I'm trying to get to here is South Africa, for example...

DIGENOVA: Right.

BROWN: ... went a different route. They said, The best way to heal in South Africa is not to put all these people on trial, not to punish, to have them come forward, make their confessions, their reconciliations, and we move on as a country.

So what I think I'm asking, is it important to go a different direction here? And if it is, why?

DIGENOVA: Oh, it's absolutely to go a different direction here. This was a criminal regime under international law, which had, as one of its purposes, to kill its citizens and the citizens of other country, to invade other countries, to use illegal, internationally illegal weapons, chemical and biological weapons, which were made illegal after World War I, and which Saddam Hussein's regime used against its own people and against the people of Iran.

Those crimes are of such a manifest nature that it is absolutely imperative that this not be a feel-good commission. It must be literal prosecutions for crimes against their own people, the peoples of Kuwait and Iran, and that people serve very, very long prison sentences if they are convicted.

BROWN: Joe, thanks. The whole question of crimes against the people of Iran opens a whole 'nother door that we don't -- we're not going to walk down tonight, but it's an interesting, it's an interesting path to walk down some night.

Thank you, and it's good to see you. Thank you.

DIGENOVA: Thank you, good to see you.

BROWN: Joe diGenova.

Out in North Korea in the nuclear crisis, the negotiations apparently ending prematurely in Beijing. Reuters news service is reporting that the North Korean delegation, along with the chief American negotiator, were seen leaving the venue just a short time after today's rounds of talks began. No word yet on what was said, but things hadn't been going well up to this point.

Here's CNN's Andrea Koppel.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN STATE DEPARTMENT CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Here inside China's leadership compound, U.S. administration sources say, North Korea's representative, Lee Gun (ph), told Assistant Secretary of State James Kelly that Pyongyang has a nuclear bomb and would prove it has the weapon soon.

North Korea wants security assurances from the United States that it won't attack. But Secretary of State Powell says the U.S. will not succumb to blackmail.

COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: That they should not leave this series of discussions that have been held in Beijing with the slightest impression that the United States and its partners and the nations in the region will be intimidated by bellicose statements or by threats...

KOPPEL: The U.S. intelligence community has suspected for years North Korea had at least one nuclear weapon, something the North had so far refused to confirm. Lee Gun also told Kelly that Pyongyang can't dismantle this weapon. He said that whether or not there is a, quote, "physical demonstration" to prove this nuclear weapon exists was up to the United States.

Though some administration officials are viewing this comment as a veiled threat by Pyongyang to test its nukes, other officials say it could be a bluff, typical North Korean brinksmanship, to force the U.S. to grant concessions.

RICHARD BOUCHER, STATE DEPARTMENT SPOKESMAN: They said a lot of things that require careful analysis before anybody jumps out and makes grand pronouncements when it means this and it means that.

KOPPEL (on camera): North Korea's official news agency put out a statement Thursday warning that U.S. actions may trigger a war on the Korean peninsula, quote, "at any moment." Secretary of State Powell said the U.S. was looking for a diplomatic solution but was leaving all options on the table.

Andrea Koppel, CNN, at the State Department.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Ahead on NEWSNIGHT, trouble and turnover at American Airlines. The top guy resigns amid an uproar over management perks as the company heads towards bankruptcy.

And the president heads to Ohio to sell his tax plan to the public. We'll have the details.

From New York, this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: More turmoil for American Airlines. Tonight the CEO, Don Carty, stepped down. And although the company has apparently won now concessions from a number of unions, it remains on the edge of what would be a colossal bankruptcy filing.

So tonight the spotlight is, once again, on American's headquarters in Fort Worth, Texas, where CNN financial correspondent Greg Clarkin joins us once again -- Greg.

CLARKIN: Hi, there, Aaron.

It was a tremendous day here at American Airlines headquarters. There was a lot going on. The board of directors meeting in a lengthy meeting to deal with a lot of contentious issues. One, the immediate issue was whether or not Don Carty would stay on as CEO. That was decided late in the day, his fate was. But also the larger issue of bankruptcy. That is still a possibility (UNINTELLIGIBLE) world's largest carrier.

But first and foremost, the board had to deal with a very contentious labor issue in the wake of Carty's major management blunder.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) CLARKIN (voice-over): Donald Carty is out as head of American Airlines. Carty resigning after losing the trust of his labor unions when he failed to tell workers about executive perks for the airline's top officials. Word that American executives were securing their financial futures came as Carty was winning steep pay cuts and other concessions from American's rank and file.

The news shattered the fragile labor peace at American and led some board members to push for Carty's removal. Carty will be replaced by American's president, Gerard Arfy (ph), and Arfy steps into much the same financial mess that Carty steps out of.

American is losing $10 million a day and says it will file for bankruptcy protection if it can't reach agreement with all three of its unions on a concession deal. So far, the pilots and the ground workers have agreed to a deal, but there's no word yet from the flight attendants.

JOHN DARRAH, PRESIDENT, ALLIED PILOTS ASSOCIATION: I'm not convinced we're done yet. I -- this is -- if we avoid bankruptcy tonight, tomorrow, this weekend, it will be the third time we've done it in three weeks. So I will not say it's over until it's over. I've quit doing that.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CLARKIN: So the future of American rests squarely in the hands of its 26,000 flight attendants. Now, the pilots and the ground workers, as well as the new management team, all say they're ready to go. But right now, those flight attendants can dictate whether or not American lands in bankruptcy proceedings, Aaron.

BROWN: When do they vote?

CLARKIN: There is no deadline set right now. What we're getting is a sense that the flight attendants, to some degree, have isolated themselves on the process. There is absolutely no communication coming out of the flight attendants' union, and that was much the case from late in the afternoon or so. It's tough to get a read on where they stand at this point.

But there were some speculation earlier that their board had rejected the consweetened concession offer, and that would obviously put American in bankrupt (UNINTELLIGIBLE), bankruptcy proceedings. Some were speculating that could be as early as tomorrow if not Monday.

But still, they're trying to salvage this and get the flight attendants on board, if you will.

BROWN: Greg, thank you. Greg Clarkin in Forth Worth, Texas, tonight.

President Bush was on the road today. He was in Ohio to sell his tax cut plan and to lean on a Republican senator -- a Republican senator -- who agrees with him on just about everything but the tax cut plan.

Like the president, Senator George Voinovich is immensely popular in Ohio, but the two Georges differ on the size of the tax cut and the importance of quickly balancing the budget.

Here again, our senior White House correspondent, John King.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KING (voice-over): The Army tank plant in Lima, Ohio, the perfect backdrop for a president fresh from quick combat victory in Iraq.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Our enemy learned that when Abrams tanks are on the battlefield, America means business.

KING: There's no doubt the war has boosted the president's standing. Seventy percent of Americans now say they approve of how Mr. Bush is handling his job. But trips like this are aimed at changing numbers on the home front that are far less encouraging. A majority in the new CNN poll, 54 percent, say Mr. Bush is not paying enough attention to the economy.

Mr. Bush says he is paying attention, urgent attention, and said at his first stop in Canton that one critical step is new tax cuts of at least $550 billion.

BUSH: The package needs to be robust so that we can create more than a million new jobs by the end of 2004.

KING: It's a tough sell in Congress, even with some fellow Republicans, like Ohio Senator George Voinovich, who greeted the president at the airport but skipped the two speeches.

Voinovich is one of several Republicans who say they will support no more than $350 billion in new tax cuts unless spending is cut to pay for the rest.

The president hopes to rally public support to put pressure on Congress.

BUSH: Well, it seems like to me, they might have some explaining (UNINTELLIGIBLE). If they agree that tax reliefs creates jobs, then why are they for a little bitty tax relief package?

KING: But the country is split when asked if the Bush tax cuts are a good idea. Forty-seven percent said no, 42 percent yes. And although the economy is growing, 56 percent said they think it is in recession, an alarming number for a president not all that far away from a reelection campaign.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KING: And if the president doesn't get most of what he wants in this tax cut debate, aides say he is all but certain to quickly come forward with another round of tax cut proposals. It's part policy. The president thinks he's right with this approach. And it's part politics. This president is determined to rebut those critics who say he's not spending enough time fighting to revive the economy, Aaron.

BROWN: Setting aside for a moment whether $350 billion qualifies as "itty bitty," in the president's view, does it politically matter if the president prevails? Is it enough to simply be out there trying?

KING: Well, they believe it is critical that he be out there trying, because that was the knock on his father, if you will, that his father was asleep at the switch when the country was in recession. This president is determined to try to convince the American people anything is far -- nothing is anything farther from the truth, that he is trying every day.

As for the numbers, the White House believes the president can get 550. If he only gets $350 billion, they're already preparing to say this. He got more than $1.7 trillion last time, $350 billion this time, he'll be back again tomorrow. So they have a backup political plan if they don't get what they want this time. But they still have another month, maybe two months, to fight it out.

BROWN: John, thank you. John King at the White House tonight.

We just heard a couple of numbers out of the poll in John King's report. Joining us now with more on what the country is thinking, our senior political analyst, Bill Schneider.

We see there isn't, Bill, a whole lot of enthusiasm, or at least certainly not a majority of Americans believing the tax cut as the president has set it out is the right thing. Why not?

BILL SCHNEIDER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, Aaron, one word, recession. Just as John reported, most Americans today believe the economy is in recession. That number has been going up very fast.

Now, economists say we're not. But, you know, what do they know?

OK, President Bush says his tax cut package is a jobs and growth package. So people who are concerned about recession ought to be very enthusiastic about this tax cut package. Not so. Americans who believe that the country is in recession solidly oppose the tax cuts. That's the 57 percent opposed.

The tax cuts are more popular among those who believe we are not in a recession. So my view is, the bad economy is undermining President Bush's argument for tax cuts. In bad times, people think, you know, The country can't afford tax cuts, particularly when they see government services, important services like education, being cut.

BROWN: Is -- has the economy itself now moved to the top of the list of people's concerns?

SCHNEIDER: Well, very quickly, the answer is, yes, it has. We asked, Which issue is going to be more important to you when you decide how you're going to vote for president next year, the economy, or national security? And the answer is, the economy, by 53 to 36.

Most Americans say the war has made the country safer. The number who say they're worried about terrorism is actually lower now than it's been at any time since 9/11.

And, you know, we all know Americans don't have very long attention spans. Consider this. Fifty-one percent of Americans say they've been paying a great deal of attention to the fighting in Iraq over the past few weeks. Only 28 percent say they've been paying attention to the efforts to rebuild Iraq. And remember the war in Afghanistan? It's still going on, but only 12 percent of Americans say they're paying any attention to it.

Iraq could quickly go the way of Afghanistan. In fact, more Americans today say that they are worried about becoming a victim of SARS than becoming a victim of terrorism. And, you know, I think that probably makes sense, because we think we know how to keep terrorists off airplanes. We are not sure at all how to keep SARS off airplanes.

BROWN: Bill, thank you very much. Bill Snyder, our senior -- Schneider, our senior political analyst.

Coming up on NEWSNIGHT, reading public opinion, but this time in Iraq. How good a job did the administration do on that? We'll talk with former CIA chief James Woolsey.

First a break, the latest headlines, and then NEWSNIGHT continues on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, I'm Fredricka Whitfield in the CNN newsroom. Here are the headlines at this hour.

CNN has confirmed that former Iraq deputy prime minister Tariq Aziz is in U.S. custody. He was number 43 on the Pentagon list of the 55 most-wanted former regime leaders. CNN analyst Ken Pollack says Aziz is an important get symbolically, but believes Aziz was not part of Saddam's inner circle. Pollack says it is unclear how much information Aziz can provide.

A suicide bombing at an Israeli train station today killed a security guard and injured at least 13 people. A faction linked to Yasser Arafat's Fatah movement claims responsibility.

A federal judge says Zacarias Moussaoui is entitled to see a classified plan by government prosecutors. It proposes how Moussaoui, who's defending himself, should be allowed to interview al Qaeda detainees. Prosecutors initially gave the proposal only to the judge, who said it was unacceptable that Moussaoui was not also given a copy.

Police in Pennsylvania are trying to figure out why a 14-year-old junior high school student shot and killed his principal before killing himself. It happened before classes morning in Red Lion, about 30 miles southeast of Harrisburg. Police say the eighth grader was carrying several handguns. And a dozen F-15 Eagle fighter jets, along with their pilots, are back home from the war in Iraq. They landed this afternoon at Langley Air Force Base in Virginia. The airmen were greeted with lots of hugs and kisses.

Those are the headlines, I'm Fredricka Whitfield. NEWSNIGHT WITH AARON BROWN continues in a few moments.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Jay Garner, the man in charge of running Iraq for the time being, is promising to quickly reopen Iraqi government ministries, in essence, bringing the machinery of government back online along with the oil wells and the power plants and the rest.

The larger question still remains, though, who runs the government, and what shape ultimately will it take?

Today the defense secretary, Donald Rumsfeld, made it plain the shape it would not take, in his view, a Shi'ite theocracy. Yet so far, Shi'ite clerics seem the best equipped and the most willing to fill the power vacuum, which came a surprise to many.

Here to talk about this and other things as well, we hope, James Woolsey, the former director of the Central Intelligence Agency.

It's nice to you again, sir.

JAMES WOOLSEY, FORMER DIRECTOR, CENTRAL INTELLIGENCE AGENCY: Good to be with you, Aaron.

BROWN: Do you think the administration underestimated, to some degree, the -- both the power of and the willingness of the Shi'ite clerics to assume both a political and social function in the wake of the war?

WOOLSEY: Well, as in Iran, in Iraq there are Shi'ite clerics and then there are Shi'ite clerics. In Iran there is a minority of mullahs who are running the instruments of power of the state, and a large majority, really, of clerics are now opposed to them.

And I think similarly in Iraq, what we're seeing is people like Hakim (ph) and the others who are with this Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq, which is really run by the mullahs in Iran, I think we're seeing them assert themselves.

They may well be disciplined and organized, but I don't think they represent the majority of the Shi'a in Iraq by any means. I think they are effectively Iranian theocratic agents.

BROWN: So the pictures we've seen and the words we've heard, over -- to some degree, over the last two weeks, but certainly in this week, may not give us an accurate reflection of how that 60 percent of the Iraqi population thinks?

WOOLSEY: I think that's right. The Shi'a traditionally, except in the 10th century in Egypt, have generally separated mosque and state. Khomeini and his revolution in Iran were an exception, and they continue to be an exception in Shi'a Islam, and it's one of the reasons why they are so unpopular in Iran today, including with one after another of grand ayatollahs who are splitting off from them.

I think the same thing will be true in Iraq. But these people, like Hakim, may be, as I said, pretty well organized and disciplined, and they're trying to take power. But I don't think they represent the bulk of opinion within the Shi'a community.

BROWN: Let me, this is absolutely hypothetical, walk away from it if you want, but you could walk away from any question if you want, including the hypothetical ones. If we believe that the Iraqis should decide the future of government of Iraq, and I think we do believe that as a country, and if they were to decide on a theocracy, what right does the United States to have say no?

WOOLSEY: Well, I think we need to stay with this long enough so that the decent and reasonable Muslims in Iraq can assert themselves over those who are essentially like the communists, disciplined and organized to take charge in a chaotic situation.

If you look at Iran as a model, the mullahs are terribly unpopular there, the ones that are running the government right now. They can barely get a taxi in Tehran. They've made a terrible botch of the economy. And, as I said, they're in violation, really, of almost all of the Shi'a tradition.

I think the same thing would be true in Iraq. But if you let there be one vote once, and the more disciplined revolutionaries take charge, I don't think that's really democracy. Democracy really requires an appetite for being able to have an opposition, and a rule of law, and being able to lose and still wake up the next morning and not worry about a knock on the door in the middle of the night.

BROWN: Well, we've got about a minute. I want to turn to another part of the world here. Doesn't sound like the talks in Beijing went very well with North Korea today. Are -- is the United States government running out of easy options where the North Koreans are concerned, assuming there were ever any easy options?

WOOLSEY: Maybe. I think that the really tough call here will be whether or not we can get China to lean hard on the North Koreans. They did cut off oil for them for a few days a couple weeks ago.

But the North Korean regime really can't survive without Chinese support, and the Chinese so far have been quite reluctant to work with us on this. If they lean on the North Koreans, we could come out of this peacefully. If they don't, the -- Kim Jong-Il is likely to continue to try to blackmail us, and he may well drive us into some type of hostilities. I hope not, but it could happen.

BROWN: And can there be a hostility in the Korean peninsula that doesn't do enormous damage to South Korea?

WOOLSEY: It would be very difficult. We could take out Yongbyon with an air strike, but if the North Koreans use their artillery, which Seoul is within range of, killed tens of thousands, even hundreds of thousands of South Koreans, and thousands of American troops. We would win a war on the Korean peninsula, but would it be a bloody war.

BROWN: It's always good to talk to you. James Woolsey, the former CIA director. Nice to have you on the program tonight. Thank you, sir.

WOOLSEY: Good to be with you.

BROWN: Thank you, sir, very much.

Ahead on NEWSNIGHT, moving forward on a peace plan for the Middle East. Sounds like the whole world is a little crazy today, doesn't it? Will new Palestinian leadership break the logjam? We will talk with former senator George Mitchell.

We'll take a break first. NEWSNIGHT continues on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: The Israeli government today issued an invitation to Abu Mazen, the newly designated head of the Palestinian government, to come to Jerusalem for discussions on restarting the peace talks. The day comes after -- rather, the invitation comes after he and Yasser Arafat agreed to a cabinet, but also after a suicide bomber killed himself and a guard at an Israeli train station.

Here to talk about the developments in the Middle East, significant developments, former senator and Mideast negotiator George Mitchell.

It's always nice to see you.

Well, if this doesn't lead somewhere, then you sort of get the feeling, that, at least in our lifetime, it's not going to happen at all.

GEORGE MITCHELL, FORMER SENATE MAJORITY LEADER: Well, I say, never say never in this process, but...

BROWN: Well, that's because you're a much more optimistic person than I am.

MITCHELL: Yes, but it's clear that there is an opportunity now. And it will be a tragedy if it is not seized.

BROWN: The -- everybody seems to agree that nothing will happen -- it's not just the releasing of the road map, which obviously is important symbolically, unless the president or the American government really engages. Agree?

MITCHELL: Yes.

BROWN: It's not -- the French can't do it, the Russians can't do it, the U.N. can't do it. Why is that only the Americans can do it?

MITCHELL: Two reasons. First, of course, the Israelis don't trust the French or the Russians or the U.N. and would not willingly and seriously engage with them.

Secondly, everyone recognizes -- Israelis, Palestinians, and the three I've just mentioned -- that there's only one entity on earth that can not only bring the parties together, but guarantee implementation of an agreement, and that's the United States government.

BROWN: When you say guarantee implementation, you mean what?

MITCHELL: Well, you remember Camp David?

BROWN: Yes.

MITCHELL: That was 23 years ago. We agreed to pay the Israelis $3 billion a year, and the Egyptians $2 billion a year, minimum, to underpin that process. We've now paid $115 billion to them, and we're still paying, and keeping it going. No one else can incur that kind of obligation and maintain it.

Secondly, no one has the moral authority that the United States does now. That's, of course, questionable in the Arab world at the moment. But it's significant, Aaron, even when the demonstrations among the Arab peoples are at their most intense against the United States, the leaders call for more American involvement, not less.

BROWN: All right. On the other hand, is -- we are a year and change out from an American presidential election. Complicate the problem.

MITCHELL: It does, sure.

BROWN: Because?

MITCHELL: It complicates every problem. Domestic politics has a role in every decision that's made by every president. But the fact is, here is a moment of opportunity, where the only way the outcome can be achieved is through active American involvement.

BROWN: Does the president, in your view, have the luxury of waiting until after November 2004 to fully engage in the Middle East?

MITCHELL: I don't think the United States government, including the president, has the luxury of waiting until after next month to get engaged. I think we must be engaged immediately, intensively, and, most importantly, with perseverance and patience.

BROWN: Because Iraq changed the timetable and increased the pressure?

MITCHELL: Iraq really is marginal to the conflicts between the Israelis and the Palestinians, they... BROWN: No, but in the -- in terms of how the Middle East views the Americans, and the need to push ahead on the Palestinian-Israeli issue?

MITCHELL: Only in part. The reality is, there is now a moment. You have a change in the Palestinian leadership, which the president has demanded, which the Israeli government has demanded, which the international community has demanded. You have an opportunity when people on both sides have come to realize that life is unbearable, it can't continue in this way, and indefinite conflict is a very unappealing alternative.

Bringing them together is possible, Aaron, despite all of this terrible killing over the past two years, consistently polls show that among both Israelis and Palestinians, two-thirds want a negotiated settlement for two states, and the political process needed to bring it about.

BROWN: Obviously, both sides will have to give up something.

MITCHELL: Yes.

BROWN: The Israelis are going to have -- clearly the Israelis are going to have to give up settlements, whether they have to give them all up or most of them or some of them. Do you believe this is (UNINTELLIGIBLE) -- and I know what they say, do you believe this Israeli government is, in fact, prepared to do that?

MITCHELL: It is, and I believe that it will. In fact, Aaron, if you go back and look at Camp David and then Taba, and then the statement that President Clinton made in January of 2001, essentially synthesizing the two of them, most of the Israeli top officials will tell that you that settlements would not have been the obstacle to agreement at that time.

I think they will do what is necessary to be done. They don't want to do it in advance, because they want to hold it as a chit. Just as the Palestinians, I think, have come to recognize that they cannot get the unrestricted right of return of refugees that they want, but they don't want to give it up in advance. They want to hold it back.

There's no trust. They want to wait to get into the negotiations and get something for any concessions they make.

BROWN: Would you like to be in this?

MITCHELL: I told the president and the secretary of state when we delivered our report that our commission, which was a five-member, it's not just me, it's Senator Rudman and three Europeans, that we agreed that I would be authorized to say we would be at the disposal of the administration if they wanted to use us. But that's a decision for the president to make.

BROWN: Nice to see you, sir.

MITCHELL: Thank you, Aaron, nice to see you.

BROWN: It's always good to see you. Former senator George Mitchell.

Take a break here, we come back, segment seven. And still another in our series of still lifes from the war in Iraq. Short break first. This is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: As most of you know by now, something we like to do on the program is bring you the work of different still photographers, and they these days are in Iraq. Tonight, Ben Lowy of "TIME" magazine, covering the dramatic, at times bloody march of Iraqi Shi'ites this week, and the startling discoveries of American cash, and a lot of it, in Baghdad.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BENJAMIN LOWY, PHOTOGRAPHER, "TIME" MAGAZINE (voice-over): My name's Benjamin Lowy. I'm a photographer at "TIME" magazine.

There is a car filled with $350 million U.S., and they parked this car, before the war started, in a parking lot in front of the Palestine Hotel. The night manager had gone to Jalabi in a way to cut a deal to make sure that he could play a part in the next government, and revealed the location of this money in hopes that it could be used for the Iraqi people and be part of the new government.

They just transported it out of the armored vehicle into a vault protected by soldiers with the 3rd Infantry Division.

I held my college education in one hand. I went to Karbala the same day.

It's definitely a (UNINTELLIGIBLE) place. You have to be careful to actually respect what they're doing. They have knives, and they cut themselves. The Hussein, who the Mosque of Hussein is named after, was decapitated in the final battle for this town. And part of cutting their heads using the swords cut the top of their heads, is kind of reminiscent of what happened to him.

And also part of this is a celebration of mourning.

They use these chained whips to hit themselves in a long procession that marched around the two central mosques, these long lines of young men hitting themselves with these chains as a form of self-punishment. Definitely a peaceful of moment when they actually go pray. But it's -- everyone (UNINTELLIGIBLE) themselves.

It went on for two straight days right through the night, and this was just one image from the middle of the night, where you see this just kid, completely exhausted, sitting on a curb.

Because they can (UNINTELLIGIBLE) down to Karbala for the first time in 35 years and have this tremendous religious experience that the Shi'a Muslim religion dictates that they do. I mean, that's tremendous.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Ben Lowy shooting for "TIME" magazine.

That ends the first hour of NEWSNIGHT. But wait, there's more. Stay with us. Coming up in the second hour, we'll spend considerable time on the SARS story. Chinese seem to be taking it much more seriously, and the Canadians are up in arms about it. We will talk with the mayor of Toronto, and we'll preview the first manned space launch since "Columbia," the accident, scheduled about 24 hours from now.

But first a break, the latest news headlines, and then NEWSNIGHT, hour number two, continues.

(NEWSBREAK)

BROWN: Those are the major headlines of the night. We begin our second hour of NEWSNIGHT with the second whip of the evening. More now on the story of Tariq Aziz. We go first to Baghdad. Nic Robertson there for us.

Nic, a headline?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, the former foreign minister, the lat deputy prime minister or previously just deputy prime minister, his arrest likely to be big news here today. And the people that we've talked to so far say they hope at least to the arrests or apprehension of Saddam Hussein himself -- Aaron?

BROWN: Nic, thank you. To Beijing now, more on the efforts to stop the spread of SARS and more fear as well. Jamie Floracruz is on the phone.

Jamie, a headline?

JAMIE FLORACRUZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, the SARS epidemic continues to spread in China. And the Beijing authorities are now taking drastic and evening painful measures to contain it. We'll tell you more how they're doing about it later -- Aaron?

BROWN: Jamie, thank you very much.

On to Toronto and the latest on the SARS situation there. Jason Carroll had that story tonight. Jason, a headline from you?

JASON CARROLL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, Canadian health officials were stunned and angered over the World Health Organization's decision to issue a travel advisory for Toronto. The WHO is standing by its decision, even though health officials here say that decision was based on outdated information -- Aaron?

BROWN: Jason, thank you. Back to you and the rest coming up shortly in the second hour of NEWSNIGHT. We'll also talk with Toronto's Mayor Mel Lastman about the World Health Organization advisory, telling people not to visit the city unless they must. To say he is livid about that would be an understatement.

And we'll update the case of Zacarias Moussaoui and the big dilemma for the U.S. government. Moussaoui says he needs testimony from al Qaeda detainees to defend himself of charges that he was involved in the 9/11 attacks.

All that and more in the hour ahead. We begin the hour with the big picture from Iraq, a picture tonight with a face to it.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN (voice-over): Apart from Saddam Hussein himself, Tariq Aziz was by far the most visible and recognizable figure of the old Iraqi regime. But he is in American custody tonight, represents at the very least a significant symbolic victory for the coalition.

Tariq Aziz was the deputy prime minister. He'd served as foreign minister and was well known throughout the world.

KEN POLLACK, CNN ANALYST: Tariq Aziz is one of the most visible of the top level leadership. And seeing Tariq Aziz in custody is likely to really start to send the message to Iraqis that Saddam's regime really is finished, and there really is no chance that they're coming back.

BROWN: Tariq Aziz is a Christian. He'd risen through the ranks of the Ba'ath party to its highest levels. Two decades ago, he met with American officials, trying to gain their support in Iraq's war with Iran. And just before this war, he vowed he would never be taken alive.

Meantime in Baghdad, the retired American general in charge of the reconstruction met with dozens of Iraqi leaders. As back in Washington, the Secretary of Defense told Associated Press Television News that it won't be long before some kind of temporary government is formed.

DONALD RUMSFELD, DEFENSE SECRETARY: Some portions of the country have only been free of Saddam Hussein for the last week. So it's a little early to be impatient about it.

BROWN: At the Baghdad meeting, retired General Jay Garner told his audience that only in the north have there been any kind of personal freedom for decades. Experience, he said, that is now valuable.

LT. GEN. JAY GARNER (RET.), OFFICE OF RECONSTRUCTION: The rest of Iraq has been in a dark room with no lights for 35 years. And two weeks ago, we opened a door and pushed him out in the sunlight and they can't see yet. So what we've said is now -- up in the north, they can help by using what they did in assisting the rest of Iraq into the democratic process.

BROWN: Meantime, these three initials, M.S.S., scratched into a wall of a Baghdad prison, were a fascinating hint about the fate of Navy Captain Scott Speicher, declared missing since the first Gulf War.

So far though, nothing else in terms of anything concrete about his fate, about when he was captured, if he was captured, how long he lived, or if he is perhaps still alive.

This home video was seen today for the first time. Training pictures of the Saddam Fedayeen, the guerilla fighters who gave American troops so much trouble in the early days of the war.

At the Iraqi National Museum in Baghdad, a few paintings returned out of the thousands of items looted. No antiquities yet.

And good news from the South. A passenger ferry carrying hundreds of Iraqi exiles docked in Umm Qasr, the first such voyage allowed since the effective end of the war.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: That's the big picture tonight, but this picture is dominated by one face, Tariq Aziz. And we go back to Baghdad and CNN's Nic Robertson -- Nic?

ROBERTSON: Aaron, we still don't yet know exactly where to Tariq Aziz was picked up. We understand it is Baghdad, but we don't where in Baghdad. Although some residents of the city say that in a neighborhood called Zayuma (ph), that is about three miles east of the center of Baghdad, an area where -- that is predominantly a Christian neighborhood, there was a high level of coalition U.S. troop activity late yesterday afternoon Baghdad time. And people believe that that possibly may be related to the arrest of Tariq Aziz.

Tariq Aziz was a Christian. That was a Christian neighborhood. There are a lot of coalition troops there. People in Baghdad putting one and one and one together to make three saying that they think that's where the arrests may have taken place.

What we're hearing from people here today is that they hope that the arrests of Tariq Aziz leads to the apprehension of Saddam Hussein. Many people here still harbor great doubts as to what's happened to the former Iraqi leader. Is he alive? Is he dead? Is he injured? Is he out of the country? Is he hiding somewhere? And the biggest question for all of them is, is he waiting to stage some kind of return to take power in Iraq?

And that's still to this day keeps people held back. It holds them back from speaking their minds on some issues still today -- Aaron?

BROWN: It's remarkable, actually, what -- I mean, the longer we go without finding Saddam or knowing what happens, the larger grows the myth of Saddam.

ROBERTSON: And myths grow very quickly, very large, and to an extent, very bizarre as well. One of those myths is that Saddam Hussein did a deal with President Bush. He's in the United States. And that's why the coalition forces haven't turned him in. And that people say only goes to prove that, you know, the United States and President Bush is against them.

These are very bizarre rumors, but it doesn't stop them circulating and doesn't stop some people believing in them passionately. And Tariq Aziz's arrest may satisfy some people in this community here that the leadership is beginning to be brought down. But that small steps -- the big step would be Saddam Hussein for a lot of them -- Aaron?

BROWN: Nic, thank you very much. Nic Robertson in Baghdad tonight.

The U.S. said early on that restoring power in Iraq was the top priority. They meant that in the literal sense, getting the lights back on, but restoring power in the figurative sense is a top priority now. Iraqi needs leadership and it needs it fast, the country does. But finding leaders acceptable to both the United States and to the Iraqis looks like it'll be a lot harder than getting the lights on.

Here's CNN's Jim Clancy.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JIM CLANCY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): More than three decades of dictatorship and cruelty scarred Iraq's 24 million people. However determined the U.S. may be to bring democracy, the shadow of Saddam Hussein will loom large over its efforts.

GAILAN HAHMOUN RAMTAZ, BAGHDAD UNIVERSITY: There is not greater spell than the imprisonment of the human soul when freedom is lost. Truly, we felt our soul was imprisoned. And that when freedom was lost under Saddam Hussein, and therefore not only our physical world was in jail, our soul was in jail.

CLANCY: Iraq's Shi'ia Muslims, a 60 percent majority long suppressed, have suffered more than most. But their thirst to charge of their lives and Iraq's future instill fears of an Islamic religious state among secular Iraqis.

Many Iraqis find the presence of U.S. forces an affront to the their dignity. They are grateful the U.S. drove Saddam Hussein from power, but wary of trading that dictatorship for domination by a foreign power.

Charged with forging democracy, while rebuilding the infrastructure and institutions of the country, retired U.S. Army Lieutenant Jay Garner faces an uphill battle with high stakes for Iraq, and the Middle East.

LT. GEN. GARNER, OFFICE OF RECONSTRUCTION HUMANITARIAN ASSISTANCE: I think you'll begin to see the governmental process starting probably next week, by the end of next week.

What'll happen once the -- and it's have Iraqi faces on it, is the government by the Iraqis.

CLANCY: Next week, Garner will attempt to bright together 300 or more leading Iraqis to discuss the way forward. He promised to have ministries up and running with Iraqis at the helm of each as soon as possible.

But what is the best course for Iraq if the destination if democracy? Professor Rommies (ph) contends Garner and Iraqis themselves should consider a return of Iraq's constitutional monarchy, to ensure stability and freedom, and give people time to build their nation.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why? Because you have the army, the police force, the civil service, and if I may say, the judiciary, linked to the crown. And therefore outside the area of complex of politics.

In this meeting, if this brought about, as first who -- I honestly believe that some 75 percent of Iraq's political problem, and America's problems in Iraq, would be solved.

The U.S. has repeated charges that Tehran is pushing Shi'ia Muslims in the south towards a religious state, modeled on Iran's Islamic republic. But it's impossible to judge what's real and what is contrived, what Iraqis themselves want for the future. After all, no one has ever asked them.

Jim Clancy, CNN, Baghdad.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

Ahead on NEWSNIGHT, a look at the latest development in the SARS epidemic. From the shutting down of a Beijing hospital to warning travelers about Toronto.

And later, we'll preview the manned space launch since the Columbia tragedy. Take a break first. This is NEWSLIGHT on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: We saw an image today of a man being held behind gates with a handful of others, flashing a peace sign. He was not some prisoner of war. He's one of the thousands in Beijing under quarantine tonight, part of the battle against a deadly and elusive enemy, the enemy being SARS.

Many people say the Chinese government waited too long to start the fight. And not it seems when they do take dramatic steps, as they did once again today, the fear only gets dramatically worse.

The latest from Beijing and CNN's Jamie Floracruz.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

FLORACRUZ (voice-over): A funeral van pulls into the back door of the Beijing University Peoples' Hospital, now closed off and quarantined because of the SARS outbreak.

After playing down SARS for months, Chinese authorities are taking drastic measures to break the chain of infections. Beijing's communist party chief has vowed to identify all those with symptoms and not let a single SARS case escape.

They have degreed that all people in public places suspected of SARS infections will be quarantined. Schools have been closed, pupils sent home for two weeks.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (through translator) I'm not too happy about this long vacation because there will be too much homework.

FLORACRUZ: To step the spread of SARS, public places are periodically sprayed with disinfectant. At the Beijing Airport, passengers are now required to go through infrared devices to screen them of SARS symptoms, like high fever.

These measures so far have failed to stop the spread of the disease in the Chinese capitol.

PETER HUMPHREY, RISK MANAGEMENT ANALYST: The SARS crisis has really underlined significant political weaknesses in the Chinese state, professional weaknesses among Chinese government officials.

FLORACRUZ: As Chinese and foreign travelers scrambled to leave Beijing, the World Health Organization has put Beijing on the list of places to avoid for non-essential travel.

In some neighborhoods, fear of quarantine has triggered panic buying of daily goods, like rice, cooking oils, and instant noodles.

(END VIDEOPTAPE)

FLORACRUZ: Aaron, the SARS situation here remains grim and the continued spread of SARS is testing the crisis management capability of the Chinese leadership. It's also taxing the patience and reticence of the more than 12 million residents of Beijing who are now confronting this mysterious and deadly disease -- Aaron?

BROWN: Jaime, thank you. Jaime Floracruz in Beijing tonight for us.

And now to the city hit hardest by SARS outside of Asia, a city deeply afraid that it's that distinction it will now be known for. It's Toronto, a place that stems its SARS outbreak to one 78 year old grandma who had just come back from Hong Kong.

Toronto's mayor is outraged that the World Health Organization is now warning people not to visit a city unless they must. You'll hear from him in a moment.

But first, the latest from Toronto and CNN's Jason Carroll.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CARROLL (voice-over): Toronto, the city with the world's tallest structure, clean streets and now SARS. The World Health Organization has issued an advisory warning against all non essential travel. Canadian officials outraged and filed a formal letter of protest Thursday, saying that WHO used outdated and incorrect information. PAUL GULLY, DR., SENIOR DIRECTOR GENERAL POPULATION AND PUBLIC HEALTH: It is a mystery that they came to the conclusion they did with the information that was available.

DON LOW, DR., MOUNT SINAI HOSP.: This is at WHO. And if they're setting the standards for the world, and this is how they do it. This is a bad message to send.

CARROLL: The WHO issued the travel advisory after it determined SARS was continuing (unintelligible.) Canada says there are 135 probable cases in the city, of $4.2 million.

Yet the WHO has marked it as a threat to international travel, making Toronto the only destination outside China under such a strong advisory.

KLAUS SCORE, WORLD HEALTH ORGANZATION: Only a small number of cases has been exported from Toronto. For instance, to the Philippines, as well as to Australia.

Now the outbreak in Toronto began also -- was one case, one case which was exported from another country, to Toronto. And they are now more than 100 people affected.

CARROLL: Despite the advisory, the U.S. Centers for Disease Control say they aren't ready to discourage Toronto travel.

JULIE GERBERDING, DIRECTOR, CDC: Our understanding of the information we have available right now is that U.S. citizens traveling to Canada are not at risk for SARS if they stay out of hospitals.

CARROLL: Economists say the outbreak could cost Canada $30 million a day, the tourism industry hit especially hard.

RON SEILING, GREATER TORONTO HOTEL ASSOCIATION: It's like a snowball rolling down the hill at you. And what we need to do is be able to reverse that snowball.

CARROLL: Hotel bookings are at their lowest level since September 11. Even major baseball is reacting. Attendance is still strong, but players have been warned now to sign autographs. And at least one Kansas City Royals player has suggested a serious schedule to start Friday. He moved to his team's home field.

Not good for a city named by their hero and Indians, Toronto, their word for meeting place.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KING : And this travel advisory will remain place for three weeks. At the end of that time, the WHO will decide if it should stay in effect -- Aaron?

BROWN: Jason, thank you. Jason Carroll, who's in Toronto tonight. The job of a big city mayor doesn't draw many shy, retiring types. And Toronto's mayor is no exception. Mel Lastman was quick to slam the WHO travel advisory. We talked with Mayor Lastman a little bit earlier tonight.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Mayor, you're obviously disappointed in the WHO advisory. On the facts, though, where is the WHO mistaken?

MEL LASTMAN, MAYOR, TORONTO: They don't know what they're talking about. I don't know who this group is. I've never heard of them before. I had never seen them before. Who did they talk to? They haven't even been to Toronto. They're located somewhere in Geneva. And they haven't talked to us all. They read the papers and sometimes the papers exaggerate. And that's what's happened right here. And I want -- I invite them. I want them to come to Toronto this weekend. I want them to see what we've been doing, like the CDC were here.

That's the Center for Disease Control in Atlanta. The United States are our direct neighbors. And the CDC said Toronto is doing -- you're a model for the world in what you're doing.

Look, we have 1500 people in quarantine at one time. We're down to 180. We haven't had one people -- one person get SARS in the last seven days. And if we go 20 days, we've beaten it.

BROWN: Well, and that -- isn't that exactly what the WHO is saying, is that they need to see three weeks of no new illness before they will reevaluate the advisory?

LASTMAN: They want to wait three weeks. In the meantime, they're hurting Toronto badly. We depend greatly on tourism. We get 22 million tourists a year. And it's hurting. Yes, our city is continuing. They're moving the way they always do. They're working. The malls are jammed. But the hotels aren't doing much business. And the restaurants aren't.

We need the tourists. And they're hurting us. And to wait three weeks is ridiculous, when they haven't even been here in the first place.

BROWN: How many SARS cases do you know of in the Toronto area right now?

LASTMAN: Well, you see what we do is, we don't take any chances. We play it safe. Like 500 people went to the Philippines, Manila, Hong Kong, and back to Toronto. We -- and one or two of them had it. We took all 500 and we quarantined all 500.

There have been in total about 8500 people who have been quarantined, but not all 8500 had SARS.

BROWN: Do you know how many...

LASTMAN: Only a fraction of them had it -- SARS.

BROWN: Do you know how many?

LASTMAN: I'm not sure the exact amount, but it's a fraction of that.

BROWN: Do you have any feel yet for how much this has cost the city government or the provincial government?

LASTMAN: Well, I know at the end of the 20 days, we will be coming out with a $25 million advertising campaign to let the world know, and that's only phase 1, to let the world know that Toronto is safe. You know, if it's safe enough to live here, it's safe enough to visit here. And let me tell you, it is safe. And people are not -- there's not that many people walking around wearing masks, surgical masks.

BROWN: Would you say that the people -- that the residents of Toronto are too nervous about SARS right now, that they are too afraid?

LASTMAN: Some people are, yes. But most people aren't. You got to the malls, the malls are jammed. You use our city transit system, there's a million people a year using the transit system. We're -- people are still working, and they're still doing everything that they always do.

BROWN: Just two other things on that. Major League Baseball said yesterday that they recommend their players not use the public transportation system. I gather you're not very happy about that either?

LASTMAN: No, that's ridiculous. I use it. And I'm going to be using it. And I'm going to be staying at a hotel in Toronto with my wife. And I am going to be going to -- I got to restaurants in Toronto. And I'll be going to more restaurants. I'll be doing a lot of this all next week.

BROWN: And just -- are you at all concerned, you must be somewhat concerned, that you might lose the All-Star game this summer?

LASTMAN: Yes, I am.

BROWN: Yes.

LASTMAN: Toronto is a sports city. And in the past, we've won quite a few championships. And I want to keep winning more. And I want this All-Star game. And we are going -- we are beating this. You know, it's almost gone. We've turned the corner. Our medical officer of health today made a statement, we've turned the corner and all we have to do is go two more weeks and we're all set.

BROWN: Well, that seems to be what the WHO is saying, whether they've been there or not. This is a most difficult time for your city. We appreciate some of your time to talk with us about it tonight. Thank you, mayor.

LASTMAN: Aaron, I thank you. BROWN: Thank you, sir.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Mel Lastman, the mayor of Toronto, Canada, Toronto, Ontario, Canada.

Until the crash of Columbia, shuttle launches got little attention. Russian Soyuz launches even less so. That won't be the case tomorrow night when a Soyuz rocket lifts off for the international space station. The launch this time driven by necessity, by logistics, and in no small part, by a need to heal.

A preview now from CNN's Miles O'Brien.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MILES O'BRIEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It is not the mission they signed up for. NASA astronaut Ed Lu and Russian cosmonaut Yuri Malenchenko were supposed to be in space for nearly two months by now, midway to a busy mission, adding new pieces to the international space station.

But all of that changed when Columbia broke apart over Texas on February 1st.

YURI MALENCHENKO, EXPEDITION SEVEN COMMANDER: (through translator) We were all very shocked. It was a great tragedy. And immediately, it became clear that everything will change from this moment.

O'BRIEN: Instead of building, they will be tending, keeping the lights on, and the dream alive.

ED LU, EXPEDITION SEVEN FLIGHT ENGINEER: It's going to be more of a challenge, obviously, but I think we'll have a really good time with it. That's our plan.

O'BRIEN: NASA's plan is to rely on the Russians to provide transportation to and from the international space station, while the shuttle fleet is grounded. The venerable Soyuz spacecraft will tote the crews, unmanned progress supply ships will carry the freight.

It is a lot to ask of the cash strapped Russians, but no one likes the alternative, moth-balling the orbiting outpost.

MALENCHENKO: (through translator) As far as keeping this station manned is concerned, I don't think it is too problematic. We have resources. They might be limited, but we do have them to continue the flight and to continue with our program.

O'BRIEN: But it will be a scaled down effort. Crew size is capped at two instead of three. And the space farers will have to conserve their...

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Coming up on NEWSNIGHT tonight, putting an accused terrorist on trial. Should Zacarias Moussaoui, for example, have the same rights before and during a trial as anyone else? This is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWS ALERT)

BROWN: The latest now on the case of Zacarias Moussaoui, a case that it is fair to say has caused a few headaches for the U.S. government. Moussaoui, you'll recall, is the only person charged with conspiring in the 9/11 attacks. His decision to represent himself have threatened to turn the proceedings into a circus.

But it is a different issue that may bring this case to a breaking point. It involves someone Moussaoui wants to interview, someone the United States government has no intention of making available.

Here's CNN's Kelli Arena.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KELLI ARENA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Some government officials are calling it the "Moussaoui Morass." The case against Zacarias Moussaoui, the only person charged in connection with the September 11 attacks, has been one legal wrangle after another.

The most contentious issue, Moussaoui's demand for access to al Qaeda detainees and the government's vehement refusal. The judge overseeing the case, Leonie Brinkema, just ordered the government to show Moussaoui its classified proposal on how to reach common ground. Defense attorneys say it's a matter of constitutional rights.

GEORGE HARRIS, JOHN WALKER LINDH ATTORNEY: The defendant preparing for trial is a matter of Fifth Amendment due process rights and at trial is a matter of Sixth Amendment right to compel witnesses to testify on his behalf, you know, has a right to access to those material witnesses.

ARENA: Moussaoui wants access to al Qaeda operative Ramsey Binalshibh who, sources say, told U.S. interrogators it was decided Moussaoui would not participate in 9/11. The judge had ruled Moussaoui could interview Binalshibh through a closed circuit hookup, but the government appealed, citing national security concerns and argued the courts have no right to engage in - quote - "second- guessing quintessentially military and intelligence judgements about the detention of combatants overseas." Binalshibh is still undergoing interrogation.

RUTH WEDGWOOD, INTERNATIONAL LAW PROFESSOR, JOHNS HOPKINS UNIVERSITY: You would wholly interrupt the rhythm of the interview process, change its psychology.

ARENA: The case was supposed to be wrapped up before the first anniversary of the terror attacks on New York and Washington. Instead, experts say it is headed for a major legal collision.

KENDALL COFFEY, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY: There's going to be a loser in that coalition if it stays in a civilian court where they're going to see damage to national security or we're going to see some bending, breaking or folding of the rights under the U.S. Constitution.

ARENA: Coffey and other experts say that is why certain terrorism trials need to be taken out of civilian courts and brought to a military tribunal.

(on camera): Government sources say that is exactly where this case is headed if the government is forced to produce al Qaeda detainees.

Kelli Arena, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Well in terms of Moussaoui, we know what he is charged with, we know his plea, we know he had access to lawyers but decided to represent himself. We know all this because the government made a decision to try him in civilian court and that assures him of some rights.

The people who are an utter mystery to us are the hundreds of detainees being held at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba, not prisoners of war, but unlawful combatants, as the U.S. calls them, without any rights to due process at all. Their legal limbo is troubling to many.

We're joined tonight from Washington by Georgetown University law professor Neal Katyal.

Good to have you with us.

NEAL KATYAL, PROFESSOR OF LAW, GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY LAW CENTER: Good to be here.

BROWN: Do you doubt that the -- is it that you doubt that the government has the right to classify someone not as a prisoner of war but in this somewhat unique category of enemy combatant or unlawful combatant?

KATYAL: Well the category of unlawful combatant is certainly one that's been established for many years. The question is really who decides who is an unlawful or enemy combatant. And here the administration's taken the view that the president alone decides these things, the he will alone decide the procedures that will take place once someone is determined to be an enemy combatant, who the judges will be at that trial, who the prosecutors will be and everything else. And so under the Geneva Conventions and other established law you need to have more than simply one person's unilateral say-so no matter who that one person may be.

BROWN: And -- all right, so what does the Geneva Convention tell us about this category of detainee and what, if any, enforcement mechanism is there anyway?

KATYAL: Well there isn't much of an enforcement mechanism. I think like most international treaties it relies much more on the kind of goodwill and observance of the parties. But it does say that the decision over who is an unlawful combatant should be decided by a competent tribunal, and a competent tribunal certainly can't be the same authority who's classifying the person as an unlawful combatant.

BROWN: It is - part of what is complicating here, isn't it, professor, is that these hundreds of people, and we don't really know how many and we don't know who they are and we don't know what countries they come from. We learned just the other day some of them are as young as 15, maybe younger than that. That they are being held in Cuba as opposed to the United States.

KATYAL: Yes. Yes, Aaron, I think there are several issues there. One is the Justice Department for many years has kind of thought about what places strategically can we put people, detainees and so on, where they have fewer rights. And it's been done normally as a temporary emergency measure, whereas in this administration, it's done consciously. We've put these people in Cuba where they have fewer rights.

And then they've done -- we've done so in a way in which we don't know how many people are there, as you say, why they're there, how long they'll stay. Remember the president has said that he can keep these people there in Cuba detained indefinitely without even military tribunals or other forms of trial. So we're talking about something that can go on for many years with literally no review by a federal judge. The administration has said that federal judges have no business with the detainments in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, that it's only up to them, the administration, to decide what process is fit for them.

BROWN: When you worked in the Clinton administration, you had these conversations about using Guantanamo. In the end, why did you reject it?

KATYAL: Well, there were any number of reasons, you know, having to do with the specific facts back in the last administration. It has been used, as I said, in the first Bush administration temporarily to detain Haitian refugees and so on, but never in the kind of long- standing, permanent way. And as you say, never in a circumstance, at least to our knowledge, in which 13 to 15-year-old boys are being detained, which is, you know, I think at least if not a clear violation, an arguable violation of various international agreements that we've made.

BROWN: As quickly as you can, why should we care?

KATYAL: We're talking about a country that is the beacon for international human rights, the United States of America. We're fighting this war in the name of liberty. And we're detaining people, we don't even know how many people, we don't know why we're detaining them, what they've done. We don't know what the procedures will be for adjudicating, if any, their guilt, and we're doing so in a way that is just -- makes a mockery of what we -- this country's about.

If we really think we have a case against these people, we should do so and bring these cases, the way we do every other criminal case in America, not in these secretive military tribunals or not in Cuba, but bring these people to America and let's have the trials that the Justice Department says they are so confident they can win.

BROWN: Professor, good to have you with us tonight.

KATYAL: Thank you.

BROWN: Interesting comments. Thank you very much.

Ahead on NEWSNIGHT, we'll like take a look at tomorrow's news tonight. We'll check morning papers from around the country and around the world, but a break first. This is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: OK, time to check morning papers from around the country and around the world. That would be tomorrow morning's papers.

It's already tomorrow morning in China. Here's the "China Post," which is Taiwan, by the way, or at least people -- we still call it that. I always get confused about that. Hospital sealed -- Ho Ping Hospital sealed. I like the picture. See if you can get a tight shot of the picture. People being held in quarantine and not very happy about it. OK. They managed to -- "New York Times" didn't get us a paper today. I don't know what happened.

But "The Oregonian" managed to. The newspaper Portland, Oregon, and there was something about this, they had an earthquake out west. Kelley Point quake jars nerves. And down at the bottom, another Republican senator, this time Gordon Smith, Republican of Oregon, chides as hurtful Santorum views on gays. Gordon Smith, one of the more interesting Republicans, he's had a kind of transformation over his time in office.

About a minute to go here. "The Charlotte" -- forget that, it's a nice newspaper. I don't want to do it because I don't have much time.

UAW -- this is "The Detroit News," UAW, United Auto Workers, sinks 10 percent -- ranks sink 10 percent in 2002. There's always or almost always an auto related story on the front page of the Detroit papers, plural because they have two morning papers. Here is the "Detroit Free Press." How can SUVs be safer at the top? And down in the corner, DaimlerChrysler's outlook is skeptical. Do you realize how many auto stories you miss by not living in Detroit?

And the Manchester "Union Leader," what struck me about this is how local the newspaper had gone. I have no problem with that. That's what a newspaper should do. Murder suspect arrested, local story. Barrington death likely a homicide, the local story. Two guys shoplifting, OK, they busted two guys from New York shoplifting. That made the front page. That's a quick look at morning -- anyway, it's a good newspaper. A quick look at morning papers, and we'll be back with something. We'll take a break first.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Earlier in the program you heard John King describe the Army tank plant in Lima, Ohio as the perfect backdrop for a president fresh from victory in Iraq. It's also perfect for something else, a way to show the need to jumpstart the economy. Lima, Ohio has seen better days.

Here's CNN's Candy Crowley.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SR. POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The state wants to close the Lima Correctional Institution. It will save budget-crunched Ohio $60 million. It will cost Lima 500 jobs, about 400,000 in lost income and all those other things that happen when a city bleeds jobs.

CRAIG BRADFORD, LIMA CORRECTIONAL OFFICER: It's already impacted me. I was looking to buy a house. And as soon as this came down, all that got put on hold.

CROWLEY: The joke here is that Lima is an acronym for lost in Middle America. This is a town that has survived the Rust Belt era, when traditional manufacturing jobs went overseas. But Lima found a new way of life building Abrams tanks for the Army. Then the Clinton administration downsized defense and almost 4,000 tank plant jobs shrank to 700. Lima kept moving. And the mayor had a vision of downtown rejuvenation with business and retail, and now this.

DAVID BERGER, MAYOR OF LIMA, OHIO: The economy here is pretty soft, very difficult circumstances. And we've had a variety of cutbacks from public sources, state and federal sources. But, also, we've seen over the last year and a half a real downsizing begin to take place in the private sector again.

CROWLEY: They've cut the city payroll by 15 percent. The school system, with a $3 million deficit, will lay off 38 teachers and 24 support staff.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The feds cut off money to the state. The state cuts down off money to the locals. And the local people are dealt to figure things out. And it's been awful tough.

CROWLEY: And it may get tougher. Remember the tank plant, the one the president visited? The Abrams contract is complete in June of next year. Without new business, the Lima tank plant work force shrinks further.

RICK GILLETTE, VICE PRESIDENT, GENERAL DYNAMICS: I'm talking about the 25, 30, up to even 40 percent, depending on what we're doing at that time in 2004. And when you say it trickles down, it also trickles down to our vendor base.

CROWLEY: What's surprising is, they don't really blame George Bush for the economy. This is a Republican city. They like him. But you hear no great drumbeat for a tax cut on the streets of Lima, not that they couldn't use a little money. It's just, they don't see what that will do to help what ails Lima.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And the working man, he don't feel like he might be able to go out and buy a TV or a toaster or a microwave oven. And the corporations get the breaks. It's simple as that, you know? How many microwaves do you have to sell to boost the economy?

CROWLEY: Ask them what Lima does need, the answer you get is, not a tax cut, not even government help. The answer you get is: jobs.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think this city has a lot to offer people. I think it has a very strong work force. It just needs a break. It just needs a break.

CROWLEY: Candy Crowley, CNN, Lima, Ohio.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: And that's all for tonight. Join us tomorrow for the Friday edition of NEWSNIGHT. We'll do two hours then, too. We'll see you then, 10:00 Eastern Time. Goodnight for all of us.

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