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CNN Wolf Blitzer Reports

Tariq Aziz Turns Self in to U.S. Forces in Baghdad

Aired April 24, 2003 - 16:52   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: We're following this developing story, potentially very significant story. The deputy prime minister of Iraq, the former deputy prime minister, that is, Tariq Aziz, perhaps one of the most visible of all of the Iraqi leaders, certainly the most visible beyond Saddam Hussein himself, you see him right here.
The eight of spades among the 55 Most Wanted of the Iraqi former Iraqi officials, now in U.S. custody. This, according to our Pentagon correspondent Chris Plante. He has it confirmed, Tariq Aziz, the former deputy prime minister of the former Iraqi regime now in U.S. custody.

Many of our viewers will, of course, remember him. He was the foreign minister during the first Gulf War. He has stayed on. He is now, of course -- he was the deputy prime minister of Iraq. An Iraqi Christian who survived all of these years.

Chris Plante, I believe, is with us at the Pentagon. Chris, tell us a little bit about the specifics, what you know, what he was brought into custody, how this was done.

CHRIS PLANTE, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, actually, Wolf, all the details are still coming to light. All we can say at this point is that Tariq Aziz, the former deputy prime minister of the regime of Saddam Hussein, now in U.S. custody.

How he came into U.S. custody is not entirely clear, whether he gave himself up, whether he was captured, whether it was in Iraq. All of these questions are still outstanding. We're of course pushing here for answers to those questions. But as of now, all that we can report with certainty is he is in U.S. custody.

Of course, a very high profile member of Saddam Hussein's regime. The face and voice of the regime for many years. Certainly, the face that most Americans put with Saddam Hussein's regime. He acted as a spokesman on many occasions. And perhaps the most senior, if not the most senior member of the regime, certainly one of the most important members of the regime to come into U.S. custody. He's the eight, I believe, eight of clubs. Either eight of clubs or eight of spades in the deck of cards.

Which doesn't put him necessarily in the top tier, but still a very important catch for the U.S. and the coalition. They are hoping that they'll be able to gather information from these officials as they take them into custody related to their weapons of mass destruction programs, where these things may be hidden, whether they were destroyed as coalition forces were advancing on Baghdad, the whereabouts of Michael Scott Speicher the F-18 pilot that was downed in the 1991 Gulf War and may still be alive to this day, according to some.

These are all bits of information that the coalition forces, the U.S. and the Pentagon are hoping to be able to get from the senior leaders as they take them into custody. So this is considered to be a big score, certainly, by the Pentagon. A high profile figure and, of course, one capture tends to lead to the next as you know, Wolf. These people tend to have awareness of the whereabouts of other people.

And of course, at the end of this line is Saddam Hussein and his sons, Uday and Qusay, also not currently in custody. But this is part of that process and U.S. intelligence is very happy, the Pentagon very happy to be able to announce today that they have Tariq Aziz -- Wolf.

BLITZER: All right, Chris Plante at Pentagon with breaking news. Tariq Aziz, the former deputy prime minister of Iraq, the former foreign minister now in U.S. custody.

Let's bring in our Baghdad correspondent, at least for the time being Jim Clancy, he's joining us now live. Jim, you and I have covered this story for a long time. Give our viewers some perspective. How significant of a development the capture of someone listed as No. 43 among the 55 Most Wanted, the eight of spades in that playing card deck. How significant a development, the capture, the arrest of Tariq Aziz?

JIM CLANCY, CNN BAGHDAD CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, you can just go back to your file tape. Look at the Revolutionary Command Council meeting. See where Tariq Aziz is seated around the table. Usually, he's right there alongside President Saddam Hussein, or he is near the top of the table. He was a man who was very respected by Saddam Hussein. He was the man that was the face of Iraq to the outside world. Yes, he was a Chaldean Catholic. Yes, he was born in Mosul in northern Iraq.

But I talked with him many times and one time asked him about his Catholicism, being a Christian here, what it meant. He said, very clearly, that we are protected because of the Muslims.

Something emerged there, Wolf. And it is that Tariq Aziz was perhaps a firm believer in nothing more than the Ba'ath Party. He believed in the secularism. Of course, he ran the newspaper back in the 1970s for the Ba'ath Party. That's how he made his way into becoming the minister of information. It was a role that he expanded upon.

Clearly, to the regime, his key importance was that he crafted the foreign policy, the foreign image of Iraq. Ask him about the excesses of the regime, ask him about the deaths of dissidents and opposition members. Tariq Aziz had the answer. He had the belief that what was done was necessary. He could stand toe to toe with the best questioners and give as good as he ever got, usually he was giving back much better. He was very tough in his beliefs. He was very determined. He was a very strong supporter of President Saddam Hussein.

If there is anyone so far who has been arrested, none other could be called in that inner circle, that real inner circle with President Saddam Hussein so much as Tariq Aziz. It's a name that means glorious past. He changed his name. That wasn't his Christian name. He came from humble roots, as I said, near Mosul. His father was a waiter. The Ba'ath Party, in many ways, was the great equalizer for this man. And this man rose up the through the ranks to the very top. He knew everything that was going on inside the regime.

We don't have all the of the details yet, but it's going to be fascinating to see. Where was he picked up? there's a lot of people, Wolf, that believe that many top people within the regime, including, perhaps, Saddam Hussein himself and his two sons are still in Baghdad, in a Sunni Muslim area where they have friends -- Wolf.

BLITZER: All right, Jim Clancy, I want you to stand by, please. We're going to continue to cover this story. We got a lot more to talk about.

Let me just recap, reset the scene for those viewers who might just be tuning in. CNN has confirmed Tariq Aziz, the deputy prime minister of the former regime, the ousted regime in Baghdad, Tariq Aziz now is in U.S. custody. Only within the past few minutes has CNN learned this, has CNN confirmed this. Tariq Aziz, perhaps after Saddam Hussein himself, the most recognized Iraqi among the top Iraqi leaders.

Let's go to our White House correspondent, John King. He's standing by, he has more -- John.

JOHN KING, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, we can report that the president's traveling party has been told of this development. Mr. Bush is making his way back from Ohio where he was promoting his economic plan today and giving an update on the war effort in Iraq.

Unclear whether the president has told this yet, but we do know that the White House has passed on the word from the Situation Room to the Air Force One traveling party that Tariq Aziz is in custody.

One official here telling CNN that he is told, does not have a second source, more information on this just yet, but that he is told, at least from preliminary reports from the Pentagon and other agencies, that Tariq Aziz turned himself in to U.S. forces who, of course, have been looking for him and other senior members of the Iraqi leadership.

We are trying to get more details on that. We also are told here at the White House that there will be an official announcement from the U.S. Central Command, the military command running the operations in Iraq, quite soon.

Now, how significant is this? White House officials say from a symbolic standpoint, it is quite significant because this is, as Jim Clancy and Chris Plante have been noting, a face known around the world as a key m ember, a top member, of Saddam Hussein's regime. So symbolically in the hunt for key Iraqi leadership members, this is viewed as a major step by the White House.

How much does he know? We've put that question over the past few minutes to a few officials here at the White House and they say they simply do not know what is Tariq Aziz's current knowledge on the key questions, one of them of course being the whereabouts of Saddam Hussein, his sons and other key members of the leadership; what does he know about weapon's programs; what might he know about whether it be weapon's programs or financial resources hidden in the country or elsewhere, outside of Iraq. Those are the questions that will be put to Tariq Aziz as they are being put, Wolf, to other key members of the Iraqi leadership as they are being brought into custody.

White House officials say this is more proof that the search continues and will continue until all the others are brought into custody as well.

BLITZER: And, John, as you are speaking, we're showing our viewers live pictures of Air Force One taxiing at Andrew's Air Force Base, just coming back from Ohio, where the president delivered two speeches, largely on the economy, earlier today, although several references to the ousted Iraqi leader, Saddam Hussein.

John, maybe you'll remember better than I did -- in the weeks leading up to the war, there was plenty of speculation, plenty of statements from State Department officials and others, suggesting that some of the top Iraqi leaders would be subject to war crimes, tribunals, war crimes charges. I believe, and I could be wrong on this, but I believe they included Tariq Aziz on that list. Do you remember off the top of your head?

KING: I do believe he was included because of his position in the government. The top officials in the government, by title, were listed, as well as then some key commanders and key deputies, including in the intelligence ministries and others, and you will remember in the early days of the war, there were rumors in the region that Tariq Aziz had fled Iraq or had somehow defected or left the country and there was a hastily arranged news conference at which he came out in Baghdad and delivered a statement to make clear that those rumors were preposterous.

That was in, of course, the very early days of the war. The suggestion at the time was the key members of the Iraqi leadership were fleeing, getting away from Saddam Hussein, because of what they thought was coming, U.S. military invasion and the like.

So, Tariq Aziz is certainly the public face, one of the public faces, of the Iraqi regime. Again, here at the White House, they say they are focused on the key question of what does he know, and they say they simply do not know what he knows now.

BLITZER: And, once again, John, as we look at Air Force One continue to taxi at Andrew's Air Force Base, just outside Washington, D.C., bringing the president and his entourage back from a speaking tour in Ohio, two separate speeches earlier today.

Presumably, presumably he will have a lot of useful information for U.S. officials, for the U.S. Central Command, once he's questioned. But as far as whether or not he's questioned as a prisoner of war, as a war criminal, what the specific legal status of this former deputy prime minister of Iraq will be and how much questioning they'll be able to do, do you have a sense of any of that?

KING: No. We do know how the process is worked, and that is that these -- when they turn themselves in or when they are captured, the members of the Iraqi leadership are in the custody of the U.S. military, which of course is running the ongoing, not only the combat operations but the post-war reconstruction efforts inside Iraq.

From there, there are a number of legal questions that have to be answered as to how they are treated. As a senior member of the leadership, Tariq Aziz will be treated differently then, say, a run of the mill Republican Guard colonel picked up out in the field.

Those are recommendations that have to be made through the military legal staff up to Secy. of Def. Rumsfeld, who in turn comes to the president with his recommendations about how that should be handled. Obviously, this is just unfolding before us, but those are some key questions. And, of course, they could well be Tariq Aziz's leverage in any negotiations with the United States as to how he will be handled and what will be his fate.

BLITZER: All right, John, please standby.

I want to bring in our analyst, Ken Pollack, who's spent most of his career studying Iraq, knows the situation there quite well. Ken Pollack is joining us now live.

Ken, when you see this, this development, an important development, certainly a dramatic development, but is there more here or less here than meets the eye, the fact that the deputy prime minister of the former Iraqi regime is now in U.S. custody, Tariq Aziz? What does it say to you?

KEN POLLACK, CNN ANALYST: Well, Wolf, as you kind of put it, I think there's both more here than meets the eye and less here than meets the eye.

I think that this was important, principally because, as you pointed out, he may have information about other top regime officials, where they're hiding, because this may send a chill through some of those other regime officials, lead them to believe that their days are really numbered, that there really is no escape for them.

But I think the most important reason why Tariq Aziz's capture is important is because of the message it's likely to send to the Iraqi people.

As Jim Clancy pointed out, Tariq Aziz is one of the most visible of the top level leadership, and seeing Tariq Aziz in custody is likely to really start to send the message to Iraqis that Saddam's regime really is finished and there really is no chance that they're coming back. That's why it's important.

By the same token, though, I don't think that we should expect too much from Tariq Aziz's capture. And in point of fact, we never really knew how much Tariq Aziz was included in any of Saddam's highest-level decisions. In point of fact, many of the best reports that we had indicated that Tariq Aziz was mostly considered a mouth piece and really wasn't part of the inner sanctum of Saddam's decision-making process. And when Saddam made a key decision, it wasn't necessary Tariq Aziz who he turned to for advice on that matter.

So Tariq Aziz may not know where the weapons of mass destruction are and he may not know other critical facts that are out there, which by his position you might think he would know.

BLITZER: Over the years, and correct me if I'm wrong, Ken, in my reporting on this story, a lot of Iraqi experts, a lot of Iraqis, have told me that Tariq Aziz could never reach the top layer of the government because he was a Christian and not a Muslim. Naji Sabri, the other foreign minister, the most recent foreign minister of Iraq, also a Christian, not a Muslim.

They obviously like the secular regime of the Ba'ath Party, but they could never really get to the inner inner sanctum of the Revolutionary Command Council. Is that a fair assessment?

POLLACK: Yes, to the best of our understanding, that was a problem for Christians like Tariq Aziz and others. They were brought in -- also like Mohammad Hamza Zubaidi, who the U.S. forces captured last week, who was a Shia, also a very important player, played a very important role in the government, but never got to the inner sanctum, never made it to the level where he was treated as one of Saddam's innermost sanctum, who really were able to talk to Saddam and participate in the decision-making process.

And it wasn't just that he wasn't a Sunni, he wasn't a Muslim, there's also the fact that he wasn't a Tikriti, because the people who really influence Saddam's thinking and who really were able to have some say in Iraq's government to the extent that anyone other than Saddam did were not only Sunni Muslims, but they were also Tikritis.

BLITZER: You know, it's interesting, as we look at these live pictures, Air Force One has now stopped. The door has opened; momentarily the president will be emerging. In fact, he probably will be emerging right now. Here he comes. The president returning from Ohio to Andrew's Air Force base, outside of Washington, D.C.

He's been told obviously about the capture, the arrest, of Tariq Aziz, the deputy -- former deputy prime minister of the Saddam Hussein regime in Iraq. He's probably very happy. I assume he's very happy at that.

But when you take a look at others still out there among the 55 most wanted, I believe, 14 or 15, maybe 16, have now been brought in to U.S. Coalition custody, still plenty of other so-called bad guys out there. POLLACK: Yes, absolutely. We have to keep our eyes on the fact that there are most of the people on that list still out there.

And more important than that, the most important officials of all are still out there. Saddam is still out there. The two sons are still out there. Abid Hamad Hamud (ph), who was probably the third most powerful an in Iraq, is also out there. Many of the regime's key security figures are still out there.

And it will be very important and very useful for the United States to get a hold of those people as quickly as we can to find out from them where the others are, to find out where the weapons of mass destruction -- to find out the other information that will be critical in putting this episode in Iraq's past behind the Iraqi people and allowing for a new future.

BLITZER: Let me bring back John King. Ken, please standby for just a few moments.

I want to bring back our senior White House correspondent, John King, as we look at Marine One now getting ready to take off from Andrew's Air Force Base, make that 10 minute or so brief, very brief flight to the South Lawn of the White House.

John, you've been speaking, obviously, with top administration officials. They must be extremely pleased at how things are beginning to unfold, despite the enormous problems still out there.

KING: Well, they are pleased in the sense that in the past 24 hours they've added four or five members of the Iraqi regime, and certainly as Ken and others have been noting, the public face of Tariq Aziz is important to them symbolically.

But as Ken was noting, and as others have been noting, they have quite a bit of skepticism behind the scenes here that Tariq Aziz has any valuable real-time information as to where are the weapons, where is Saddam Hussein.

They do believe he could be helpful in the nuts and bolts of trying to find out how things work and perhaps where certain financial and others resources are, but from a public face of the president trying to convince the American people, number one, that steady progress is being made and, number two, that yes, the combat mission may be over, but there is still a lot to be done, to take into custody somebody whose face is so well-known to the American people as a spokesman for Saddam Hussein, as a key player in the regime, at least in the public presentation of the regime's power and policy, is important to this president as he seeks now to sustain public support for keeping U.S. troops in the field, for spending billions of dollars in the months and most believe years ahead on the reconstruction and security inside Iraq.

So it is a key development to have this one individual in hand. Of course, the question will be asked, as it was asked after the early developments in Afghanistan -- in that context, it was "What about Osama bin Laden." In this question, it will be "Where is Saddam Hussein."

BLITZER: You know, you make a good point, and Ken Pollack makes a very good point as well. He may be more important symbolically than he is substantively, and the Central Command itself may have underscored this by putting him at No. 43 among the 55 most wanted, saying directly in that effect that there are 42 other Iraqis who are more serious, who are more wanted, than Tariq Aziz, who was the eight of spades, that corresponded with No. 43 out of No. 45.

John, stand by for a second. Chris Plante is over at the Pentagon for us. He broke this story for us. He's standing by.

Chris, are you getting any more information about the developments, dramatic development, although there may be more there than meets -- may be less there than meets the eye, as some of our experts are pointing out to us, about how, when, where Tariq Aziz was brought into custody?

PLANTE: So far, Wolf, no more specifics on that front. We're certainly trying here. But until a very short time ago, as I think you know, all we were getting from the Pentagon was that we believe that he is in custody.

Now, that was less than 30 minutes ago, that the word was that shaky, so details are still slow in coming here. But certainly, the expectation is that Tariq Aziz represents a treasure trove for the intelligence communication, that he, as a member of the inner circle of Saddam Hussein, at least until a short time ago, as the public face and voice of the regime for a very long time, would be able to bring a lot to the table for the intelligence community, regarding the location of weapons of mass destruction, these ongoing programs, whether they were destroyed as coalition forces approached the city of Baghdad, where the manufacturing facilities may have been.

And also, very importantly, where other regime leaders may be at this point in time. Obviously a very hot pursuit going on for Saddam Hussein, his sons Uday and Qusay, and other regime leaders that are considered to be vital to this operation by U.S. intelligence and by the U.S. military.

Tariq Aziz, if he is cooperating, certainly could provide something of a goldmine to U.S. intelligence and I would imagine that's why word is a little bit slow in getting around, is that they're being very cautious -- Wolf.

BLITZER: All right, Chris Plante, please standby.

Marine One has now taken off from Andrew's Air Force Base, bringing the president and his close aides back to the White House. That'll be landing on the South Lawn of the White House in about 8 or 10 minutes, 11 minutes sometimes, depending on the wind.

Joe Wilson is joining us now, the former acting ambassador to Iraq, just before the first Persian Gulf War. He was the charge d'affaires there. You met with Tariq Aziz, Joe, on many occasions. Give us your perspective on what this means, the fact that the former deputy prime minister of Iraq, the former foreign minister during the first Persian Gulf War, Tariq Aziz, is now in U.S. custody.

JOSEPH WILSON, FMR. AMB. TO IRAQ: Hi, Wolf.

Well, you certainly get one of the most visible faces of the Iraqi regime over the past 20 years. He was one of the key spokesmen, and most articular spokesmen, during the run up to the first Gulf War and ever since. And of course, he speaks English extraordinarily well.

Jim Baker said of him when he met him in Geneva on January 9, I believe it was, in 1991, said he played a bad hand very well, and he's been able to do that for as long as he's been in the seat of power there.

BLITZER: Is it your sense that because he spoke English so well, he was a polished diplomat, he roamed around the world trying to generate support for the Ba'ath regime in Baghdad, he appeared to be a lot more important than he actually was?

WILSON: Well, it's funny you should mention that. I was thinking as I was hearing the earlier piece, I wonder really the extent to which he would have inside knowledge as to where these weapons of mass destruction sites actually are.

I remember when I went to see him the day they invaded Kuwait, the Iraqis invaded Kuwait, in August of 1990. He was -- it was the one time in the 2-1/2 years that I had dealt with him, that he was somewhat flustered. He did not have a set of pat answers to our demands that he get out of Kuwait quickly. And I remember leaving, thinking that perhaps he was not in that particular decision-making loop.

That said, of course, he's been with Saddam since the very beginning, and given his seniority, he probably knows a lot of the innermost secrets.

BLITZER: You think he knows a lot of the innermost secrets about one of the big questions, one of the huge questions of this war, where are the weapons of mass destruction, where might they be hidden or buried?

WILSON: Well, I'm not sure about that. That's not -- it never was his -- he never was in that particular chain of command loop, certainly when I knew him.

Perhaps as the deputy prime minister he got into that loop. But as I say, the one thing that struck me when I met him right after the Gulf War was how little he seemed to know about the invasion.

BLITZER: You know, I want you to listen to this excerpt from an interview, Joe, that I did with Tariq Aziz last year. I've interviewed him on a few occasions over the past dozen years, but to the very end, obviously, he was always totally loyal, totally loyal, to Saddam Hussein, would never crack, would never acknowledge that Iraq had ever made any plans.

Listen to this brief excerpt from an interview I did with him last year while he was visiting South Africa.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TARIQ AZIZ, IRAQI FMR. DEPUTY PRIME MIN.: But when you say a preemptive strike, preemptive of what? They are telling wrongly the American public opinion and the world, that Iraqi is reproducing weapons of mass destruction. That's not true. We are ready to prove it. We are ready to prove it by technical viable means, but not in the way that was done in the 90's, when the inspectors remained in Iraq 7-1/2 years and then they were working for the Americans and the British in order to give pretext for their attack, for their aggression on Iraq, which was unjustifiable.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Last September 1st, Tariq Aziz joined me on CNN'S "Late Edition," live at the time from Johannesburg, South Africa -- it may have been taped, actually, in South Africa, where he was visiting.

Joe Wilson, please standby for a moment, because Jim Clancy is still with us. He's in Baghdad, and I want to bring him in.

I know this is a hard question for you to answer, because it's only broken within the past 10 or 15 minutes or so, Jim, but how surprised, at least in the initial word -- and word spreads very quickly in a place like where you are, in Baghdad. How surprised would people be to the knowledge that Tariq Aziz is now in U.S. custody?

CLANCY: Well, it depends on how he was brought into custody. If he turned himself in, you have the point here that the regime is over.

Everybody knew Tariq Aziz. Tariq Aziz was very intelligent. If he's turning himself in, why? That's going to be one of the questions that is asked by people.

If he was captured, might be a little bit of a different scenario, but it still spells out the same thing: the regime is ended.

Tariq Aziz's capture here is going to have an effect on people. Everybody knew that he crafted the international policy. He was a Christian. He was not a Tikriti, so he was something of a separate, if you will, when he sat at that table. But at the same time, there's no doubting he was an integral part of the Revolutionary Command Council that ran Iraq.

How much did he really run the country? No one can be sure until more in known about the inner workings of the regime. Certainly with this arrest, the U.S. is closer to an answer to that question.

BLITZER: But what you're suggesting, Jim, is that Tariq Aziz very, very visible, not only to Americans, to the outside world, but also inside Iraq, and short of perhaps capturing Saddam Hussein or one or both of his suns, Uday and Qusay, this is going to send a powerful, powerful message to the people of Iraq that Saddam Hussein is gone for good. Is that right?

CLANCY: Well, that's my sense of it right now. And, you know, there's going to be all kinds of speculation. The rumors in Baghdad, without telephones, newspapers, electricity in a lot of places, the rumor mill is going to go wild. People ware going to say Saddam Hussein, sending out Tariq Aziz to negotiate for him, perhaps negotiate a surrender or negotiate an escape, because that's what people are going to be thinking.

Who was Saddam Hussein's negotiator? Who reopened diplomatic relations with Washington, with the Reagan administration in 1984? Who was it that got U.S. support during the Iran-Iraq War? The answer to all of the questions is Tariq Aziz.

BLITZER: And Tariq Aziz, as we pointed out earlier, Jim, and we spoke about this, he was listed as No. 43, 43 among the 55 most wanted. Clearly symbolically very significant, but 42 others Iraqis were deemed more important to the U.S.-led coalition than Tariq Aziz.

How do you explain that?

CLANCY: You know, it's easily explained, I think.

There has -- because he spoke English, because he was a Christian in a ruthless regime that was dominated by Muslims from Tikrit, Tariq Aziz was always seen in the West at least as the nice guy. Mind you, not necessarily here in Baghdad, but in the West.

He was always the man people would ask the question, well, if you toppled Saddam Hussein, could you have Tariq Aziz run the regime? Is he a nice guy?

The answer is, he was a Ba'athist, died in the wool, just as much as Saddam Hussein and anybody else that was sitting at that table. Did he agree with, did he support, did he take the decision for the atrocities committed by the regime? We don't know that yet, but we do know that he was always there to try to explain it away to the rest of the world.

BLITZER: You know, also, Jim, as you well know, having spoken to many Arab leaders, Arab foreign ministers in particular, Tariq Aziz had a pretty good relationship with his other Arab counterparts in the Arab League and elsewhere when he met with them -- polished, sophisticated. He didn't come across, let's say, like some of the others, like Taha Yassin Ramadan, the vice president, almost like a thug, if you will. They were intimidated by him.

This could -- this -- he could have some sympathy out there in the Arab world, especially among the elite, for his predicament right now. Is that fair?

CLANCY: That is very fair. Remember, just listen to what Tariq Aziz said even before this conflict. He was the one that coined that phrase that said it's not about regime change, it's about region change, sending the message, reflecting, I think, a lot of the fears all across the region.

When Tariq Aziz was talking, people were listening. They respected his intellect. Here was a man that could really see through some of the problems, even if it was for propaganda purposes. He had the way of turning it, boiling it down, and really putting it into a sphere-head to use in any kind of arguments that he was making overseas.

People listened to him. The Arab world, the Arab street, listened to what he said, and they liked it because they saw him standing up to the rest of the world in that diplomatic arena.

BLITZER: Jim, stand by for a second.

I want to play another excerpt from an interview that Tariq Aziz gave CNN. This one only two months before the start of the war.

He spoke with CNN's Alessio Vinci when he was visiting Rome for a meeting at the Vatican with the Pope. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

AZIZ: It is quite unacceptable that when Mr. Bush says time is running out, time is running out -- why time is running out you see. There isn't, when they say there is a threat, that's an exaggeration which has not been bought by the whole world.

They say time is running out because they would like to keep the ambiguity and to attack Iraq within an ambiguous situation so that people will not have the reaction that they should have because there is no reason for such a war.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: I know, Jim Clancy, you've met, you've seen Tariq Aziz over the years, you got to get a flavor for a little bit of what he was all about. Take us a little bit behind the scenes. Give us an impression of who this man really was.

CLANCY: He liked to talk. He liked to engage you in a debate. He loved to let you listen to his arguments, and he laid them out very reasonably.

Here was a man that let his intelligence really do the talking as he would analyze problems. He enjoyed very much sitting down with journalists that wanted to listen to what he had to say, and he would try to put the best spin on whatever it was that the regime might have been doing at the time.

He would lay out the history. He would lay out the politics. He knew it all. It was all at his fingertips, and he used it. He was -- he was not that thug that so many of the other people that the journalists had to deal with -- we had our watchdogs with us. We had all of the other problems in covering the story here.

Sitting down for a half-an-hour with Tariq Aziz was like a breath of fresh air. Even though he might have still been defending the regime, he was putting forward ideas that you did not expect to hear from the Tikriti clan.

BLITZER: And just for our viewers who may just be tuning in, Tariq Aziz, the former deputy prime minister of Iraq, now in U.S. custody somewhere presumably inside Iraq.

Jim, you were in Baghdad before the first Gulf War, after the Iraqis invaded Kuwait, before the U.S.-led coalition began the war in January 1991. You remember, I'm sure, very vividly, as I do, the meeting that Tariq Aziz had with the then U.S. Secy. of State James Baker, in Geneva. That was the last ditch effort. That was the last moment that the U.S. and the coalition at that time tried to convince the Iraqis to get out of Kuwait.

Bring us a little bit of perspective on Tariq Aziz's role at that time, in the hours leading up to the first Gulf War.

CLANCY: Well, just, it was classic Tariq Aziz.

He comes out tough, he says I'm here for peace, all of this can be avoided, let's talk.

James Baker was carrying a letter from then President Bush and he wanted to give it to Saddam Hussein. Tariq Aziz refused to take it, because Tariq Aziz knew what it was. It was the ultimatum and Tariq Aziz wasn't going to take it from him.

He knew that the game was being played, and he knew what kind of effect it would have if he held his own and just said I am not taking the letter from you.

It was -- it was Tariq Aziz. It was that tough front that he gave.

Yes, he was articulate. Yes, he was intelligent. But he was also tough.

BLITZER: Jim Clancy, please standby because we're going to continue our coverage of this important development.

The U.S. now has within its hands Tariq Aziz, the former deputy prime minister of Iraq, perhaps -- perhaps after Saddam Hussein himself the most recognized Iraqi face, at least here in the United States.

We're going to have much more coverage on this. We're standing by. The president is expected to return to the White House momentarily. We'll have coverage of that as well. The Central Command expected to make a formal announcement shortly on the arrest, the capture, the surrender, if you will, of Tariq Aziz. We're not sure exactly how it happened, but we're going to continue our coverage. WOLF BLITZER REPORTS will have much more as soon as we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back.

We're following a breaking story. The U.S. now has within it's hands Tariq Aziz, the former deputy prime minister of Iraq, the former foreign minister of Iraq, the eight of spades as listed among the 55 most wanted Iraqis. He was No. 43 out of 55.

Tariq Aziz, perhaps after Saddam Hussein the most recognized Iraqi face here in the United States, perhaps around the world. Tariq Aziz now in U.S. custody.

Let's go over to the Pentagon. Chris Plante is standing by. He broke this story for us. For those viewers, Chris, who might just be tuning in, is there official confirmation yet from the U.S. Central Command at Doha, Qatar, that Tariq Aziz is now within U.S. custody.

PLANTE: No. The answer is no. Official on the record confirmation from the Central Command has not happened. That will happen when they put out a piece of paper. That piece of paper is expected relatively soon. But we have official, flat out, yes, we have him in custody confirmation here in the hallways of the Pentagon and official confirmation, more official confirmation is expected soon.

As I think I said a bit earlier, this earlier this afternoon with a rumor that a senior member of the regime had been taken into custody. That rumor then became Tariq Aziz, that Tariq Aziz has been taken into custody.

As you said a few minutes ago there were rumors early on in the military conflict that Tariq Aziz had fled the country. We still don't know if that was the case or not. Our producer here, Mike Mount (ph), a short time ago speaking to some officials in the hall, was not able to get anything additional in the way of details on this except to get the absolute official, yes, we have him in custody. We're, you know, we're -- no more word games. He is in U.S. custody. We don't know where that is. Is that inside Iraq? We don't know. Did he flee the country and decide that because he was the public face of Iraq he wouldn't be able to hide out very well and maybe broker a deal of some kind to turn himself in? We don't know.

We're still waiting for a lot in the way of details from officialdom here. And it wouldn't be at all surprising, as you know, Wolf, if some of the details were sketchy or not very well defined for some time to come. Particularly if Tariq Aziz did turn himself in with some conditions. I'm not saying that we know he did, but certainly a man in his position, if he were to turn himself in would have some bargaining power. So it wouldn't be at all surprising.

But that said, as I'm sure Ken Pollack can address, this is a man who has been very close to the regime for a very long time and certainly will bring a lot to the table when it comes to U.S. intelligence, interrogators trying to get information from him as to the history their weapons of mass destruction program, as to the whereabouts of other senior regime leaders, including, perhaps, Saddam Hussein, his sons Uday and Qusay, other senior leaders.

And as Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld has said over and over again, they expect really that they're going to get their best information regarding the weapons of mass destruction programs and other major issues from senior regime leaders once they take them into custody.

Now, they've stepped up that program a little bit. It started as something of a trickle after Baghdad fell taking in an official after a couple of days, another official after a couple of days. Seems to be accelerating that the pace of regime officials coming into the hands of the coalition seems to be increasing. And, of course, intelligence analysts and military people here at the Pentagon take that as a very good sign.

It could potentially be a very important find for the U.S. military and for U.S. intelligence. There have been a couple other senior regime people including a man described as the father of Iraq's nuclear program who was taken into custody last week. And another man who was the science adviser, chief science adviser to Saddam Hussein.

Now when they came in, according to the public reports at least, what they said to U.S. officials as they came into their custody was that there were no more weapons of mass destruction. That there were at one time, but they no longer had possession of weapons of mass destruction. This is of course not what the U.S. wanted to hear. They're hopeful still that they'll be able to get ahold of other regime leaders who will be able to point them in the direction they want to go and that is the smoking gun.

They have been looking for the smoking gun so they can show the world that the motivation for this invasion was entirely justified, that the regime was, in fact, hiding a secretive weapons of mass destruction program over the course of time that did pose a threat. And this is, of course, very crucial for the U.S. at this point. And at no point has the administration here or Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld wavered in his belief that they will eventually be able to establish that these programs do exist or at least did exist until very recently.

As you know some reports that these weapons were destroyed by Iraqi forces as coalition forces approached the gates of Baghdad. So if that's the case, then certainly you want to get your hands on the people that were involved in the destruction of those programs to bring you to the locations so that soil samples and other such things would be able to be establish, effectively at least, the smoking gun that this administration has been looking for -- Wolf.

BLITZER: All right, Chris Plante at the Pentagon. He's going ahead and work his sources together with his colleagues over there, get some more information for us. Soon as you get the official confirmation from the U.S. military Central Command, let us know, Chris. We'll of course put that on the air right away. No one at CNN has been covering this Iraq story as thoroughly as our Nic Robertson. He's back in Baghdad right now. He's joining us on the phone.

Nic, word that -- official conformation, we're standing by -- but we have confirmed that Tariq Aziz is now in the U.S. military custody somewhere, presumably in Iraq. Give our viewers some perspective on this very dramatic development.

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, certainly Tariq Aziz absolutely at the heart of administration in Iraq for so many years. There were rumors that he had drifted out of favor in recent years. Perhaps people speculated that was why he had not made so many overseas trips.

He did very much come to -- come to symbolize the Iraqi regime during the Gulf War, where he was -- where he met with Baker in Geneva, where he made many international trips trying to -- trying to garner support for Iraq within the region. But there was speculation that his move to deputy prime minister in recent years, away from foreign minister, had essentially weakened his position, did not give him a big international voice. He did not play such an important part in the regime.

But -- but every senior international visitor who would come to Baghdad would meet with Tariq Aziz. He was almost the gatekeeper, if you will, for the -- for Saddam Hussein, for other members of the Ba'ath Party regime in Baghdad. And he will, as much as any of the other leaders within the Ba'ath Party, will have huge resource to information about so many aspects of how they ran the country and what programs they may have been administering in terms of weapons of mass destruction, so many things for the regime that the coalition would like to have interested in -- have interest in and perhaps, most importantly, shed light on the whereabouts or the -- or what Saddam Hussein may have been thinking. Was he thinking to leave Iraq? Where would he go? What were his options? Who would he have been talking to? Perhaps Aziz having some insights there into -- into what other members of the Ba'ath Party had been planning for in terms of their exit and hiding once the coalition took control of the country, Wolf.

BLITZER: Nic, you remember -- it was about, I'm guessing, 10 days or so ago, maybe two weeks ago or so when Tariq Aziz's home in Baghdad, his villa, a very lovely estate, if you will, was ransacked, was looted at that time. I was still out there in the Persian Gulf and I remember several of the Arab, non-Iraqis saying they felt sorry for Tariq Aziz. He was simply trying to do his job under the thumb of a brutal regime a regime, a regime like Saddam Hussein. How much sympathy will Tariq Aziz have inside Iraq and outside Iraq right now, Nic?

ROBERTSON: Well, there certainly may be some people who would feel that way, but many people would remember Tariq Aziz as aligning himself with Saddam Hussein and the Ba'ath Party as early as the 1950s and tracking a course with them ever since, being a spokesman for the Ba'ath Party in the early 1960s, becoming a member of the regional command in 1974, 1997 becoming of the top echelon of the party, the Revolutionary Command Council in 1997. There will perhaps be many people who feel he was -- may be have been the international public face for the regime, but was as much part of the regime as many of the others.

He perhaps will be more fondly remembered, possibly, by some elements of the Christian community who maybe looked toward as representing their views within the leadership within Iraq. But there will be perhaps others who believed he would have -- he sold out and was as much a member of the Ba'ath Party, was as much a reason for the problems Iraq, had the war with Iran, the U.N. sanctions, that he -- that his and the party's beliefs and followings of Saddam Hussein were the root of the country's problems.

So in some circles he may, yes, find people who would have at least some decent memories of him. But many -- likely many, just as many other people, Wolf, would think of him as being a senior member of the regime. Nothing more, nothing less. The root of their problems.

BLITZER: Nic, please stand by.

I want to bring back our White House correspondent, John King. The president, I take it, John, has now landed a the White House.

KING: He has landed, Wolf, and he has gone back inside the White House. And as we discussed earlier the word was passed to the president as he was making his way back to the White House from Ohio. Two speeches out there today assessing the war effort, but mostly promoting his economic plan.

As soon as Marine One landed and the president stepped off, reporters out back on the south grounds of the White House tried to get the president's reaction to this news. Let's listen to a bit.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

QUESTION: What about Tariq Aziz?

(LAUGHTER)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Clear from the president's smile at the end that he heard the shouted question there from a group of reporters in unison saying, "What about Tariq Aziz?" The president generally does not stop and take questions on the way into the White House unless he has something he wants to say. But he did get the question, turn and smile and give that thumbs-up sign.

Wolf, the president back inside the White House now. Officials here say they're still getting only the most smallest of details about this. They say Central Command will make the announcement and that's the way the president wants it. As we did report earlier one official here telling CNN he has been told that Tariq Aziz turned himself in, but the official is trying to get confirmation and more information about that. We do not have that information just yet. The White House says symbolically they view this as a key development, a key face, a figure if you will, in the Saddam Hussein regime being captured, it helps the White House make the case that one by one and day by day, as one senior official put it, the search continues. But as to what he knows, they say here at the White House, they are bit skeptical he has major information.

BLITZER: All right, John King at the White House. That thumbs up from the president, that smile clearly spoke 1,000 words, if you will. The president, clearly, very happy. Tariq Aziz, the former deputy prime minister of Iraq now in U.S. custody.

On April 1 of this year he gave an interview to the LBC, the Lebanese Broadcasting Corporation and he lashed out bitterly at President Bush. Let's listen to a brief excerpt.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

AZIZ (through translator): We do not want to become a religious struggle. This is between independent and imperialism. Britain has historically had history in the area, and ignorant Bush thinks that he is a super power, and that he can control Iraq and the region and oil and therefore the world.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Ignorant Bush, strong words from Tariq Aziz describing the current president of the United States. He never had pleasant words for the president's father either during the first Gulf War.

Ken Pollack is back with us from the Brookings Institute, our Iraq analyst spent many years over at the CIA and the National Security Council studying Iraq and learning a great deal about it. Tariq Aziz, obviously well known a well-known figure to the west, presumably well known inside Iraq, as well.

Will this convince the Iraqi people that Saddam Hussein is basically gone forever?

POLLACK: I think that is one of the most important reasons why the capture of Tariq Aziz is important for the United States, for the Iraqi people, Wolf. This will hopefully convince the Iraqi people that Saddam's regime really is gone.

As John King was alluding to in his report, Tariq Aziz is important as a symbol. He was a symbol of the regime. He was one of the most visible members of the highest level of the regime. He was a face who all Iraqis knew, all the world knew. For many Iraqis knowing he is in captivity will hopefully reassure them that Saddam's really is finished. It's not going to be able to come back. It's not going to bite them. It's not going to reconstitute and seize power at some point in the future.

BLITZER: When he joined the Ba'ath party in the late '50s it was a very secular party, tried to unite all the people of Iraq, the Sunnis, the Shi'a, the Kurds in the north, the Turkman, all the various ethnic groups, presumably that's why a Christian like Tariq Aziz felt comfortable Ba'ath party. But over they years, especially the recently years, hasn't the Ba'ath party changed moved away from that earlier secular tradition?

POLLACK: I don't think they have necessarily moved away from the earlier secular tradition, so much as they have moved away from the earlier ideology. The Ba'ath party early on was very fiercely ideological. They had this weird combination of panArabism, and socialism and they were very committed to that. I think Tariq Aziz when he first joined the party was committed to it's ideology, as well. But over the course of time, especially with the emergence of Saddam Hussein as the leader of the Ba'ath party, the Ba'ath party's ideology is what fell to the wayside. And religious ties, ethnic ties, ideology, all of that stuff just became secondary to the cult of personality around Saddam Hussein and what it was Saddam wanted. I think this is when Tariq Aziz started to made a real deal with the devil. Basicly giving up whatever ideological inclinations he had coming to the Ba'ath, and making himself a tool of Saddam Hussein's megalomania.

BLITZER: One final question before I let you go, Ken. The fact that he emerged as a very useful aid to Saddam Hussein over the years. He was a Christian, most recently in February he went to the Vatican to meet with the Pope. Earlier last year when I interviewed him he was in South Africa for a meeting. I presume Saddam Hussein saw this Christian Iraqi as someone who could speak to the West, Speak to the Europeans, to the outside world.

Even though within Saddam Hussein's inner circle there were plenty of Iraqi leaders that did not like Tariq Aziz, is that right?

POLLACK: I think you have categorized it very nicely, Wolf, which is that Tariq Aziz was a very useful tool for Saddam Hussein. He was someone who the Iraqis believed could speak well to the world, to the West because he was a Christian. That was a very nice symbol. We're not simply a bunch of Sunnis Muslims here, we do include everyone. Tariq Aziz and another Iraqi Mohummed Hamzah El-Zebeidi, another deputy prime minister who was a Shi'a and recently captured by U.S. Central Command was another one who they could show off and say we do represent all of Iraq's population.

But as best we understand it, and as John King was suggesting, Tariq Aziz really wasn't a member of Saddam's inner sanctum decision making. When it came to important foreign policy decisions, it's interesting, all the information we have about Tariq Aziz and his participation in those most important foreign policy decisions, within every single case that he tried to advise Saddam and he was simply ignored.

BLITZER: Ken Pollack, thanks very much for you analyst. If you can stand by we're going to have to go take a quick break. And we have much more coverage of this breaking story. Tariq Aziz, the former deputy prime minister of Iraq now in U.S. military custody. We're standing by for official word from the U.S. military Central Command in Doha, Qatar, Camp (UNINTELLIGIBLE) just outside of Doha. We're going to bring that to you as soon as we get it. When we come back we also have something you want to see, some exclusive home video of Saddam Hussein that we just obtained, as well as some video of his son Uday Hussein. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back. If you've been watching CNN for the last hour plus, you know the big headline right now. Tariq Aziz, perhaps the most recognized Iraqi after Saddam Hussein is now in U.s. Military custody. We're standing by for an official statement from the U.S. military Central Command. We're going to bring that to you as soon as we get that statement. But we have more details coming in on how this unfolded, rather dramatic details.

Let's bring in our national security correspondent, David Ensor -- David.

DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Tariq Aziz, turned himself in late today Baghdad time, I'm told by U.S. officials. He did that after an intermediary went to the Americans in Baghdad yesterday, and said that Tariq Aziz might be interested in turning himself in. I do not know whether the intermediary asked for anything in return, but I'm told by U.S. officials, as one put it, we don't make deals. Now, one of the key questions is how useful may he be to American officials who are obviously looking for the rest of the leadership, and for the weapons of mass destruction, they are convinced to be found in Baghdad.

On that, U.S. officials say they don't believe that Tariq Aziz is likely to know where weapons of mass destruction are, but they do believe that he is likely to know whether or not they exist. That he will be likely able to confirm the existence of certain types of weapons of mass destruction at a minimum.

He's also likely to know, in the view of some U.S. officials, where some of the other senior officials may be. He may, for example, be able to say definitively whether Saddam Hussein survived either or both of the two attempts to kill him early on in the war.

BLITZER: So there potentially could be a lot, a lot of important information. When you suggest that there was an intermediary that stepped in 24 hours before he surrendered himself to U.S. authority in Baghdad, that suggests there's a deal that he's ready to talk to spill the beans and cooperate with U.S. authorities. Am I going too far?

ENSOR: Well, I don't know. That's the thing. I mean I know from U.S. officials that there was an intermediary who came, who approached the Americans in Baghdad and said, you know, I'm speaking on behalf of Tariq Aziz, he might be interested in turning himself in. It may be that he might have asked for something in return. I am assured that nothing was given in return.

BLITZER: All right, David Ensor, please stand by because we're going to continue to monitor this important story. Tariq Aziz, the deputy prime minister of Iraq, the former deputy prime minister, that is, now in U.S. military custody. All of this is unfolding as CNN has obtained some exclusive videotapes of both Saddam Hussein and his families dating back to the late 1980s. They were made the Iraqi leader was then at the peak of his power.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER (voice-over): From the Hussein family archives, homespun images of a dictator in his hayday. These tapes offer glimpses into the private lives of Saddam Hussein and his family. We see Saddam and his first wife, Sajida, before their separation walking in the snow- covered mountains near Dohuk. A military aide is seen with them.

There's a younger, thinner Saddam celebrating his 50th birthday in 1987. On that tape, children can be heard in the background chanting tributes to, quote, "Father Saddam."

CON COUGHLIN, AUTHOR: The first thing that strikes you about the Saddam tape is that he's celebrating of his birthday surrounded by bodyguards. So even going back to all those years, Saddam was felling very insecure. I think you said it was 1988. Well, that was just after the war with Iran ended. Saddam was claiming victory in that war, he was a victorious war leader. But clearly he wasn't trusting anybody.

BLITZER: Another tape shows Sajida and other members of Saddam's regime them greeting Queen Noor of Jordan. Noor is now the widow of King Hussein.

There's video of Saddam visiting a wounded soldier. Saddam giving Sajida a kiss good-bye as she departs for Cairo. And Saddam on a driving tour.

Sajida's whereabouts are now unknown, but these tapes were obtained from one of her Baghdad residences. She is the mother of Qusay Hussein, three daughters and the notorious elder son Uday, whose own home video library offers eerie and fascinating images.

This tape shows Uday feeding his pet lions in at private backyard zoo in one of his villas. It's not known exactly when this was taped, but it's clearly after the 1996 assassination attempt on Uday in which he was shot 17 times.

COUGHLIN: You can see there's a lot of strain there. The effort standing, even standing still for some period of time is quite a strain.

BLITZER: This villa was hit during coalition bombs by the current war. It's not known if the lions survived.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: And let's get back to our breaking story, an important story. Tariq Aziz, the former deputy prime minister of Iraq now in U.S. custody. Two of our best reports, Nic Robertson, Jim Clancy, they're both joining me now live from Baghdad. We'll get to them in just one moment.

But CNN's Marty Savidge is joining us on the phone as well. He was in Baghdad just the day before Tariq Aziz's home in Baghdad was ransacked. Refresh our viewers, Marty. Tell us what exactly you saw at the time in Baghdad.

MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well the first time we went into Tariq Aziz's home was on the day that Marines pushed into the eastern side of Baghdad. That was the monumental day that the big statue came crashing down.

And it was on that evening that the Marines immediately went to the home of Tariq Aziz, one, to see if he was home. Two, to try to find about -- find out where he had fled to. So they blew the door off the home, made entry into the home, but didn't take anything. They were specifically trying to locate the man or information as to his whereabouts.

Then it was the next day that we went back during the daylight hours, again, to try to see if there was more information that might prove or point a trail to the Iraqi leadership, where they had gone. And it was then that you started see the looting had already started taking place. Everything and anything that was not nailed down was quickly disappearing in the hands of Iraqi civilians -- Wolf.

BLITZER: And those pictures that we've been showing our viewers clearly demonstrates that. Marty Savidge, thanks very much.

Let's bring back Nic Robertson and Jim Clancy. They're joining us now live from Baghdad. Jim, you have had a little time to absorb the enormity of this development. Tariq Aziz, one of the symbols of the Saddam Hussein era, the Saddam Hussein regime now in U.S. custody. You heard David Ensor say through an intermediary he surrendered himself to U.S. authorities. What do you make of that?

CLANCY: What I make of it is the interesting question here is was he in Baghdad or in another country like Damascus, Syria? If he was there and this is negotiated, it's symbol that the regional power there, Syria putting pressure on members of the regime who may have fled there. We don't know that yet.

If it's here in Baghdad that negotiating process flies in the face of what he said just before the war, that he would fight, along with other members of the regime, to the last bullet. He did not want to end up in Guantanamo Bay with the al Qaeda prisoners.

Tariq Aziz is a proud man. Handing himself over to the United States means one thing, the regime is well and truly finished.

BLITZER: All right, stand by for a second. David Ensor still with me here in our Washington bureau. He could answer that question. Did he hand himself over in Baghdad or Syria or some place else?

ENSOR: Baghdad.

BLITZER: Baghdad for sure? ENSOR: Yes.

BLITZER: All right, so you heard it from Dave Ensor, he's got it hard here in Washington. Tariq Aziz surrendered after some discussions through an intermediary, he surrendered in Baghdad.

Nic Robertson, what does that say to you?

ROBERTSON: It says that obviously he hadn't fled the country, that he must have been here, they he'd gone to ground. It might indicate that more Iraqi officials and leadership figures are still here in Baghdad. It might even indicate that Saddam Hussein is still around.

Again, it may indicate that the fall of Baghdad was so quick Saddam Hussein and his sons may be took off and all these other leading officials just left in the wake. Perhaps the realization for them that to Saddam Hussein they were very little more than props on a much greater stage.

Tariq Aziz also said that he would rather die than end his days in an American jail. So perhaps the indication from all of this is that he doesn't think that is where he's going to end up. Maybe he has cut himself a deal. We -- David say no deals would be made but Aziz there coming forward and deciding to hand himself in. Did he have no other options or something on offer that was too good to miss here?

BLITZER: Jim Clancy, there's been a lot of speculation that the families, the wives, the children of some of these top Iraqis may have escaped even before the war even started or perhaps in the early days. Do you have any sense that Tariq Aziz's family remains in Baghdad or perhaps they were among those that may have gotten out?

CLANCY: I don't have any sense of that. I don't know the answer to that question. But was I do know is that there came a point in time when members of the regime probably realized it was safer to stay right here in Baghdad in a neighborhood they knew then to get out on the highway where Special Operation troops or U.S. helicopters might run them down. It's a matter of security.

Now for one reason or another, perhaps they feel that they have to cut a deal, they have to hand themselves over. Tariq Aziz perhaps feeling that he will be able to get some kind of a deal that perhaps he doesn't have as much to fear as other members of the regime.

BLITZER: The fact, Nic, that Tariq Aziz was able to hideout in Baghdad over these past several weeks, it suggests that there's a lot of places for someone with some influence to still manage to hide out in the Iraqi capital. Presumably, that suggests that there are plenty of other Iraqi leaders, maybe even in Baghdad.

ROBERTSON: Absolutely. It's an indication really that although there are a lot of the U.S. troops on the ground here, they just haven't been able to go neighborhood to neighborhood. And even (UNINTELLIGIBLE) reports of that first night when the Marines hit the edge of Baghdad on the eastern side, they made a beeline for Aziz's house, realizing, thinking that it was an important place. But obviously many more locations, maybe more leaders hidden in Baghdad -- Wolf.

BLITZER: All right, Nice Robertson, Jim Clancy doing outstanding work for us.

We're going continue to watch this story. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. Lou Dobbs is going to pick up our breaking news coverage. He's standing by in New York.

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Aired April 24, 2003 - 16:52   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: We're following this developing story, potentially very significant story. The deputy prime minister of Iraq, the former deputy prime minister, that is, Tariq Aziz, perhaps one of the most visible of all of the Iraqi leaders, certainly the most visible beyond Saddam Hussein himself, you see him right here.
The eight of spades among the 55 Most Wanted of the Iraqi former Iraqi officials, now in U.S. custody. This, according to our Pentagon correspondent Chris Plante. He has it confirmed, Tariq Aziz, the former deputy prime minister of the former Iraqi regime now in U.S. custody.

Many of our viewers will, of course, remember him. He was the foreign minister during the first Gulf War. He has stayed on. He is now, of course -- he was the deputy prime minister of Iraq. An Iraqi Christian who survived all of these years.

Chris Plante, I believe, is with us at the Pentagon. Chris, tell us a little bit about the specifics, what you know, what he was brought into custody, how this was done.

CHRIS PLANTE, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, actually, Wolf, all the details are still coming to light. All we can say at this point is that Tariq Aziz, the former deputy prime minister of the regime of Saddam Hussein, now in U.S. custody.

How he came into U.S. custody is not entirely clear, whether he gave himself up, whether he was captured, whether it was in Iraq. All of these questions are still outstanding. We're of course pushing here for answers to those questions. But as of now, all that we can report with certainty is he is in U.S. custody.

Of course, a very high profile member of Saddam Hussein's regime. The face and voice of the regime for many years. Certainly, the face that most Americans put with Saddam Hussein's regime. He acted as a spokesman on many occasions. And perhaps the most senior, if not the most senior member of the regime, certainly one of the most important members of the regime to come into U.S. custody. He's the eight, I believe, eight of clubs. Either eight of clubs or eight of spades in the deck of cards.

Which doesn't put him necessarily in the top tier, but still a very important catch for the U.S. and the coalition. They are hoping that they'll be able to gather information from these officials as they take them into custody related to their weapons of mass destruction programs, where these things may be hidden, whether they were destroyed as coalition forces were advancing on Baghdad, the whereabouts of Michael Scott Speicher the F-18 pilot that was downed in the 1991 Gulf War and may still be alive to this day, according to some.

These are all bits of information that the coalition forces, the U.S. and the Pentagon are hoping to be able to get from the senior leaders as they take them into custody. So this is considered to be a big score, certainly, by the Pentagon. A high profile figure and, of course, one capture tends to lead to the next as you know, Wolf. These people tend to have awareness of the whereabouts of other people.

And of course, at the end of this line is Saddam Hussein and his sons, Uday and Qusay, also not currently in custody. But this is part of that process and U.S. intelligence is very happy, the Pentagon very happy to be able to announce today that they have Tariq Aziz -- Wolf.

BLITZER: All right, Chris Plante at Pentagon with breaking news. Tariq Aziz, the former deputy prime minister of Iraq, the former foreign minister now in U.S. custody.

Let's bring in our Baghdad correspondent, at least for the time being Jim Clancy, he's joining us now live. Jim, you and I have covered this story for a long time. Give our viewers some perspective. How significant of a development the capture of someone listed as No. 43 among the 55 Most Wanted, the eight of spades in that playing card deck. How significant a development, the capture, the arrest of Tariq Aziz?

JIM CLANCY, CNN BAGHDAD CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, you can just go back to your file tape. Look at the Revolutionary Command Council meeting. See where Tariq Aziz is seated around the table. Usually, he's right there alongside President Saddam Hussein, or he is near the top of the table. He was a man who was very respected by Saddam Hussein. He was the man that was the face of Iraq to the outside world. Yes, he was a Chaldean Catholic. Yes, he was born in Mosul in northern Iraq.

But I talked with him many times and one time asked him about his Catholicism, being a Christian here, what it meant. He said, very clearly, that we are protected because of the Muslims.

Something emerged there, Wolf. And it is that Tariq Aziz was perhaps a firm believer in nothing more than the Ba'ath Party. He believed in the secularism. Of course, he ran the newspaper back in the 1970s for the Ba'ath Party. That's how he made his way into becoming the minister of information. It was a role that he expanded upon.

Clearly, to the regime, his key importance was that he crafted the foreign policy, the foreign image of Iraq. Ask him about the excesses of the regime, ask him about the deaths of dissidents and opposition members. Tariq Aziz had the answer. He had the belief that what was done was necessary. He could stand toe to toe with the best questioners and give as good as he ever got, usually he was giving back much better. He was very tough in his beliefs. He was very determined. He was a very strong supporter of President Saddam Hussein.

If there is anyone so far who has been arrested, none other could be called in that inner circle, that real inner circle with President Saddam Hussein so much as Tariq Aziz. It's a name that means glorious past. He changed his name. That wasn't his Christian name. He came from humble roots, as I said, near Mosul. His father was a waiter. The Ba'ath Party, in many ways, was the great equalizer for this man. And this man rose up the through the ranks to the very top. He knew everything that was going on inside the regime.

We don't have all the of the details yet, but it's going to be fascinating to see. Where was he picked up? there's a lot of people, Wolf, that believe that many top people within the regime, including, perhaps, Saddam Hussein himself and his two sons are still in Baghdad, in a Sunni Muslim area where they have friends -- Wolf.

BLITZER: All right, Jim Clancy, I want you to stand by, please. We're going to continue to cover this story. We got a lot more to talk about.

Let me just recap, reset the scene for those viewers who might just be tuning in. CNN has confirmed Tariq Aziz, the deputy prime minister of the former regime, the ousted regime in Baghdad, Tariq Aziz now is in U.S. custody. Only within the past few minutes has CNN learned this, has CNN confirmed this. Tariq Aziz, perhaps after Saddam Hussein himself, the most recognized Iraqi among the top Iraqi leaders.

Let's go to our White House correspondent, John King. He's standing by, he has more -- John.

JOHN KING, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, we can report that the president's traveling party has been told of this development. Mr. Bush is making his way back from Ohio where he was promoting his economic plan today and giving an update on the war effort in Iraq.

Unclear whether the president has told this yet, but we do know that the White House has passed on the word from the Situation Room to the Air Force One traveling party that Tariq Aziz is in custody.

One official here telling CNN that he is told, does not have a second source, more information on this just yet, but that he is told, at least from preliminary reports from the Pentagon and other agencies, that Tariq Aziz turned himself in to U.S. forces who, of course, have been looking for him and other senior members of the Iraqi leadership.

We are trying to get more details on that. We also are told here at the White House that there will be an official announcement from the U.S. Central Command, the military command running the operations in Iraq, quite soon.

Now, how significant is this? White House officials say from a symbolic standpoint, it is quite significant because this is, as Jim Clancy and Chris Plante have been noting, a face known around the world as a key m ember, a top member, of Saddam Hussein's regime. So symbolically in the hunt for key Iraqi leadership members, this is viewed as a major step by the White House.

How much does he know? We've put that question over the past few minutes to a few officials here at the White House and they say they simply do not know what is Tariq Aziz's current knowledge on the key questions, one of them of course being the whereabouts of Saddam Hussein, his sons and other key members of the leadership; what does he know about weapon's programs; what might he know about whether it be weapon's programs or financial resources hidden in the country or elsewhere, outside of Iraq. Those are the questions that will be put to Tariq Aziz as they are being put, Wolf, to other key members of the Iraqi leadership as they are being brought into custody.

White House officials say this is more proof that the search continues and will continue until all the others are brought into custody as well.

BLITZER: And, John, as you are speaking, we're showing our viewers live pictures of Air Force One taxiing at Andrew's Air Force Base, just coming back from Ohio, where the president delivered two speeches, largely on the economy, earlier today, although several references to the ousted Iraqi leader, Saddam Hussein.

John, maybe you'll remember better than I did -- in the weeks leading up to the war, there was plenty of speculation, plenty of statements from State Department officials and others, suggesting that some of the top Iraqi leaders would be subject to war crimes, tribunals, war crimes charges. I believe, and I could be wrong on this, but I believe they included Tariq Aziz on that list. Do you remember off the top of your head?

KING: I do believe he was included because of his position in the government. The top officials in the government, by title, were listed, as well as then some key commanders and key deputies, including in the intelligence ministries and others, and you will remember in the early days of the war, there were rumors in the region that Tariq Aziz had fled Iraq or had somehow defected or left the country and there was a hastily arranged news conference at which he came out in Baghdad and delivered a statement to make clear that those rumors were preposterous.

That was in, of course, the very early days of the war. The suggestion at the time was the key members of the Iraqi leadership were fleeing, getting away from Saddam Hussein, because of what they thought was coming, U.S. military invasion and the like.

So, Tariq Aziz is certainly the public face, one of the public faces, of the Iraqi regime. Again, here at the White House, they say they are focused on the key question of what does he know, and they say they simply do not know what he knows now.

BLITZER: And, once again, John, as we look at Air Force One continue to taxi at Andrew's Air Force Base, just outside Washington, D.C., bringing the president and his entourage back from a speaking tour in Ohio, two separate speeches earlier today.

Presumably, presumably he will have a lot of useful information for U.S. officials, for the U.S. Central Command, once he's questioned. But as far as whether or not he's questioned as a prisoner of war, as a war criminal, what the specific legal status of this former deputy prime minister of Iraq will be and how much questioning they'll be able to do, do you have a sense of any of that?

KING: No. We do know how the process is worked, and that is that these -- when they turn themselves in or when they are captured, the members of the Iraqi leadership are in the custody of the U.S. military, which of course is running the ongoing, not only the combat operations but the post-war reconstruction efforts inside Iraq.

From there, there are a number of legal questions that have to be answered as to how they are treated. As a senior member of the leadership, Tariq Aziz will be treated differently then, say, a run of the mill Republican Guard colonel picked up out in the field.

Those are recommendations that have to be made through the military legal staff up to Secy. of Def. Rumsfeld, who in turn comes to the president with his recommendations about how that should be handled. Obviously, this is just unfolding before us, but those are some key questions. And, of course, they could well be Tariq Aziz's leverage in any negotiations with the United States as to how he will be handled and what will be his fate.

BLITZER: All right, John, please standby.

I want to bring in our analyst, Ken Pollack, who's spent most of his career studying Iraq, knows the situation there quite well. Ken Pollack is joining us now live.

Ken, when you see this, this development, an important development, certainly a dramatic development, but is there more here or less here than meets the eye, the fact that the deputy prime minister of the former Iraqi regime is now in U.S. custody, Tariq Aziz? What does it say to you?

KEN POLLACK, CNN ANALYST: Well, Wolf, as you kind of put it, I think there's both more here than meets the eye and less here than meets the eye.

I think that this was important, principally because, as you pointed out, he may have information about other top regime officials, where they're hiding, because this may send a chill through some of those other regime officials, lead them to believe that their days are really numbered, that there really is no escape for them.

But I think the most important reason why Tariq Aziz's capture is important is because of the message it's likely to send to the Iraqi people.

As Jim Clancy pointed out, Tariq Aziz is one of the most visible of the top level leadership, and seeing Tariq Aziz in custody is likely to really start to send the message to Iraqis that Saddam's regime really is finished and there really is no chance that they're coming back. That's why it's important.

By the same token, though, I don't think that we should expect too much from Tariq Aziz's capture. And in point of fact, we never really knew how much Tariq Aziz was included in any of Saddam's highest-level decisions. In point of fact, many of the best reports that we had indicated that Tariq Aziz was mostly considered a mouth piece and really wasn't part of the inner sanctum of Saddam's decision-making process. And when Saddam made a key decision, it wasn't necessary Tariq Aziz who he turned to for advice on that matter.

So Tariq Aziz may not know where the weapons of mass destruction are and he may not know other critical facts that are out there, which by his position you might think he would know.

BLITZER: Over the years, and correct me if I'm wrong, Ken, in my reporting on this story, a lot of Iraqi experts, a lot of Iraqis, have told me that Tariq Aziz could never reach the top layer of the government because he was a Christian and not a Muslim. Naji Sabri, the other foreign minister, the most recent foreign minister of Iraq, also a Christian, not a Muslim.

They obviously like the secular regime of the Ba'ath Party, but they could never really get to the inner inner sanctum of the Revolutionary Command Council. Is that a fair assessment?

POLLACK: Yes, to the best of our understanding, that was a problem for Christians like Tariq Aziz and others. They were brought in -- also like Mohammad Hamza Zubaidi, who the U.S. forces captured last week, who was a Shia, also a very important player, played a very important role in the government, but never got to the inner sanctum, never made it to the level where he was treated as one of Saddam's innermost sanctum, who really were able to talk to Saddam and participate in the decision-making process.

And it wasn't just that he wasn't a Sunni, he wasn't a Muslim, there's also the fact that he wasn't a Tikriti, because the people who really influence Saddam's thinking and who really were able to have some say in Iraq's government to the extent that anyone other than Saddam did were not only Sunni Muslims, but they were also Tikritis.

BLITZER: You know, it's interesting, as we look at these live pictures, Air Force One has now stopped. The door has opened; momentarily the president will be emerging. In fact, he probably will be emerging right now. Here he comes. The president returning from Ohio to Andrew's Air Force base, outside of Washington, D.C.

He's been told obviously about the capture, the arrest, of Tariq Aziz, the deputy -- former deputy prime minister of the Saddam Hussein regime in Iraq. He's probably very happy. I assume he's very happy at that.

But when you take a look at others still out there among the 55 most wanted, I believe, 14 or 15, maybe 16, have now been brought in to U.S. Coalition custody, still plenty of other so-called bad guys out there. POLLACK: Yes, absolutely. We have to keep our eyes on the fact that there are most of the people on that list still out there.

And more important than that, the most important officials of all are still out there. Saddam is still out there. The two sons are still out there. Abid Hamad Hamud (ph), who was probably the third most powerful an in Iraq, is also out there. Many of the regime's key security figures are still out there.

And it will be very important and very useful for the United States to get a hold of those people as quickly as we can to find out from them where the others are, to find out where the weapons of mass destruction -- to find out the other information that will be critical in putting this episode in Iraq's past behind the Iraqi people and allowing for a new future.

BLITZER: Let me bring back John King. Ken, please standby for just a few moments.

I want to bring back our senior White House correspondent, John King, as we look at Marine One now getting ready to take off from Andrew's Air Force Base, make that 10 minute or so brief, very brief flight to the South Lawn of the White House.

John, you've been speaking, obviously, with top administration officials. They must be extremely pleased at how things are beginning to unfold, despite the enormous problems still out there.

KING: Well, they are pleased in the sense that in the past 24 hours they've added four or five members of the Iraqi regime, and certainly as Ken and others have been noting, the public face of Tariq Aziz is important to them symbolically.

But as Ken was noting, and as others have been noting, they have quite a bit of skepticism behind the scenes here that Tariq Aziz has any valuable real-time information as to where are the weapons, where is Saddam Hussein.

They do believe he could be helpful in the nuts and bolts of trying to find out how things work and perhaps where certain financial and others resources are, but from a public face of the president trying to convince the American people, number one, that steady progress is being made and, number two, that yes, the combat mission may be over, but there is still a lot to be done, to take into custody somebody whose face is so well-known to the American people as a spokesman for Saddam Hussein, as a key player in the regime, at least in the public presentation of the regime's power and policy, is important to this president as he seeks now to sustain public support for keeping U.S. troops in the field, for spending billions of dollars in the months and most believe years ahead on the reconstruction and security inside Iraq.

So it is a key development to have this one individual in hand. Of course, the question will be asked, as it was asked after the early developments in Afghanistan -- in that context, it was "What about Osama bin Laden." In this question, it will be "Where is Saddam Hussein."

BLITZER: You know, you make a good point, and Ken Pollack makes a very good point as well. He may be more important symbolically than he is substantively, and the Central Command itself may have underscored this by putting him at No. 43 among the 55 most wanted, saying directly in that effect that there are 42 other Iraqis who are more serious, who are more wanted, than Tariq Aziz, who was the eight of spades, that corresponded with No. 43 out of No. 45.

John, stand by for a second. Chris Plante is over at the Pentagon for us. He broke this story for us. He's standing by.

Chris, are you getting any more information about the developments, dramatic development, although there may be more there than meets -- may be less there than meets the eye, as some of our experts are pointing out to us, about how, when, where Tariq Aziz was brought into custody?

PLANTE: So far, Wolf, no more specifics on that front. We're certainly trying here. But until a very short time ago, as I think you know, all we were getting from the Pentagon was that we believe that he is in custody.

Now, that was less than 30 minutes ago, that the word was that shaky, so details are still slow in coming here. But certainly, the expectation is that Tariq Aziz represents a treasure trove for the intelligence communication, that he, as a member of the inner circle of Saddam Hussein, at least until a short time ago, as the public face and voice of the regime for a very long time, would be able to bring a lot to the table for the intelligence community, regarding the location of weapons of mass destruction, these ongoing programs, whether they were destroyed as coalition forces approached the city of Baghdad, where the manufacturing facilities may have been.

And also, very importantly, where other regime leaders may be at this point in time. Obviously a very hot pursuit going on for Saddam Hussein, his sons Uday and Qusay, and other regime leaders that are considered to be vital to this operation by U.S. intelligence and by the U.S. military.

Tariq Aziz, if he is cooperating, certainly could provide something of a goldmine to U.S. intelligence and I would imagine that's why word is a little bit slow in getting around, is that they're being very cautious -- Wolf.

BLITZER: All right, Chris Plante, please standby.

Marine One has now taken off from Andrew's Air Force Base, bringing the president and his close aides back to the White House. That'll be landing on the South Lawn of the White House in about 8 or 10 minutes, 11 minutes sometimes, depending on the wind.

Joe Wilson is joining us now, the former acting ambassador to Iraq, just before the first Persian Gulf War. He was the charge d'affaires there. You met with Tariq Aziz, Joe, on many occasions. Give us your perspective on what this means, the fact that the former deputy prime minister of Iraq, the former foreign minister during the first Persian Gulf War, Tariq Aziz, is now in U.S. custody.

JOSEPH WILSON, FMR. AMB. TO IRAQ: Hi, Wolf.

Well, you certainly get one of the most visible faces of the Iraqi regime over the past 20 years. He was one of the key spokesmen, and most articular spokesmen, during the run up to the first Gulf War and ever since. And of course, he speaks English extraordinarily well.

Jim Baker said of him when he met him in Geneva on January 9, I believe it was, in 1991, said he played a bad hand very well, and he's been able to do that for as long as he's been in the seat of power there.

BLITZER: Is it your sense that because he spoke English so well, he was a polished diplomat, he roamed around the world trying to generate support for the Ba'ath regime in Baghdad, he appeared to be a lot more important than he actually was?

WILSON: Well, it's funny you should mention that. I was thinking as I was hearing the earlier piece, I wonder really the extent to which he would have inside knowledge as to where these weapons of mass destruction sites actually are.

I remember when I went to see him the day they invaded Kuwait, the Iraqis invaded Kuwait, in August of 1990. He was -- it was the one time in the 2-1/2 years that I had dealt with him, that he was somewhat flustered. He did not have a set of pat answers to our demands that he get out of Kuwait quickly. And I remember leaving, thinking that perhaps he was not in that particular decision-making loop.

That said, of course, he's been with Saddam since the very beginning, and given his seniority, he probably knows a lot of the innermost secrets.

BLITZER: You think he knows a lot of the innermost secrets about one of the big questions, one of the huge questions of this war, where are the weapons of mass destruction, where might they be hidden or buried?

WILSON: Well, I'm not sure about that. That's not -- it never was his -- he never was in that particular chain of command loop, certainly when I knew him.

Perhaps as the deputy prime minister he got into that loop. But as I say, the one thing that struck me when I met him right after the Gulf War was how little he seemed to know about the invasion.

BLITZER: You know, I want you to listen to this excerpt from an interview, Joe, that I did with Tariq Aziz last year. I've interviewed him on a few occasions over the past dozen years, but to the very end, obviously, he was always totally loyal, totally loyal, to Saddam Hussein, would never crack, would never acknowledge that Iraq had ever made any plans.

Listen to this brief excerpt from an interview I did with him last year while he was visiting South Africa.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TARIQ AZIZ, IRAQI FMR. DEPUTY PRIME MIN.: But when you say a preemptive strike, preemptive of what? They are telling wrongly the American public opinion and the world, that Iraqi is reproducing weapons of mass destruction. That's not true. We are ready to prove it. We are ready to prove it by technical viable means, but not in the way that was done in the 90's, when the inspectors remained in Iraq 7-1/2 years and then they were working for the Americans and the British in order to give pretext for their attack, for their aggression on Iraq, which was unjustifiable.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Last September 1st, Tariq Aziz joined me on CNN'S "Late Edition," live at the time from Johannesburg, South Africa -- it may have been taped, actually, in South Africa, where he was visiting.

Joe Wilson, please standby for a moment, because Jim Clancy is still with us. He's in Baghdad, and I want to bring him in.

I know this is a hard question for you to answer, because it's only broken within the past 10 or 15 minutes or so, Jim, but how surprised, at least in the initial word -- and word spreads very quickly in a place like where you are, in Baghdad. How surprised would people be to the knowledge that Tariq Aziz is now in U.S. custody?

CLANCY: Well, it depends on how he was brought into custody. If he turned himself in, you have the point here that the regime is over.

Everybody knew Tariq Aziz. Tariq Aziz was very intelligent. If he's turning himself in, why? That's going to be one of the questions that is asked by people.

If he was captured, might be a little bit of a different scenario, but it still spells out the same thing: the regime is ended.

Tariq Aziz's capture here is going to have an effect on people. Everybody knew that he crafted the international policy. He was a Christian. He was not a Tikriti, so he was something of a separate, if you will, when he sat at that table. But at the same time, there's no doubting he was an integral part of the Revolutionary Command Council that ran Iraq.

How much did he really run the country? No one can be sure until more in known about the inner workings of the regime. Certainly with this arrest, the U.S. is closer to an answer to that question.

BLITZER: But what you're suggesting, Jim, is that Tariq Aziz very, very visible, not only to Americans, to the outside world, but also inside Iraq, and short of perhaps capturing Saddam Hussein or one or both of his suns, Uday and Qusay, this is going to send a powerful, powerful message to the people of Iraq that Saddam Hussein is gone for good. Is that right?

CLANCY: Well, that's my sense of it right now. And, you know, there's going to be all kinds of speculation. The rumors in Baghdad, without telephones, newspapers, electricity in a lot of places, the rumor mill is going to go wild. People ware going to say Saddam Hussein, sending out Tariq Aziz to negotiate for him, perhaps negotiate a surrender or negotiate an escape, because that's what people are going to be thinking.

Who was Saddam Hussein's negotiator? Who reopened diplomatic relations with Washington, with the Reagan administration in 1984? Who was it that got U.S. support during the Iran-Iraq War? The answer to all of the questions is Tariq Aziz.

BLITZER: And Tariq Aziz, as we pointed out earlier, Jim, and we spoke about this, he was listed as No. 43, 43 among the 55 most wanted. Clearly symbolically very significant, but 42 others Iraqis were deemed more important to the U.S.-led coalition than Tariq Aziz.

How do you explain that?

CLANCY: You know, it's easily explained, I think.

There has -- because he spoke English, because he was a Christian in a ruthless regime that was dominated by Muslims from Tikrit, Tariq Aziz was always seen in the West at least as the nice guy. Mind you, not necessarily here in Baghdad, but in the West.

He was always the man people would ask the question, well, if you toppled Saddam Hussein, could you have Tariq Aziz run the regime? Is he a nice guy?

The answer is, he was a Ba'athist, died in the wool, just as much as Saddam Hussein and anybody else that was sitting at that table. Did he agree with, did he support, did he take the decision for the atrocities committed by the regime? We don't know that yet, but we do know that he was always there to try to explain it away to the rest of the world.

BLITZER: You know, also, Jim, as you well know, having spoken to many Arab leaders, Arab foreign ministers in particular, Tariq Aziz had a pretty good relationship with his other Arab counterparts in the Arab League and elsewhere when he met with them -- polished, sophisticated. He didn't come across, let's say, like some of the others, like Taha Yassin Ramadan, the vice president, almost like a thug, if you will. They were intimidated by him.

This could -- this -- he could have some sympathy out there in the Arab world, especially among the elite, for his predicament right now. Is that fair?

CLANCY: That is very fair. Remember, just listen to what Tariq Aziz said even before this conflict. He was the one that coined that phrase that said it's not about regime change, it's about region change, sending the message, reflecting, I think, a lot of the fears all across the region.

When Tariq Aziz was talking, people were listening. They respected his intellect. Here was a man that could really see through some of the problems, even if it was for propaganda purposes. He had the way of turning it, boiling it down, and really putting it into a sphere-head to use in any kind of arguments that he was making overseas.

People listened to him. The Arab world, the Arab street, listened to what he said, and they liked it because they saw him standing up to the rest of the world in that diplomatic arena.

BLITZER: Jim, stand by for a second.

I want to play another excerpt from an interview that Tariq Aziz gave CNN. This one only two months before the start of the war.

He spoke with CNN's Alessio Vinci when he was visiting Rome for a meeting at the Vatican with the Pope. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

AZIZ: It is quite unacceptable that when Mr. Bush says time is running out, time is running out -- why time is running out you see. There isn't, when they say there is a threat, that's an exaggeration which has not been bought by the whole world.

They say time is running out because they would like to keep the ambiguity and to attack Iraq within an ambiguous situation so that people will not have the reaction that they should have because there is no reason for such a war.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: I know, Jim Clancy, you've met, you've seen Tariq Aziz over the years, you got to get a flavor for a little bit of what he was all about. Take us a little bit behind the scenes. Give us an impression of who this man really was.

CLANCY: He liked to talk. He liked to engage you in a debate. He loved to let you listen to his arguments, and he laid them out very reasonably.

Here was a man that let his intelligence really do the talking as he would analyze problems. He enjoyed very much sitting down with journalists that wanted to listen to what he had to say, and he would try to put the best spin on whatever it was that the regime might have been doing at the time.

He would lay out the history. He would lay out the politics. He knew it all. It was all at his fingertips, and he used it. He was -- he was not that thug that so many of the other people that the journalists had to deal with -- we had our watchdogs with us. We had all of the other problems in covering the story here.

Sitting down for a half-an-hour with Tariq Aziz was like a breath of fresh air. Even though he might have still been defending the regime, he was putting forward ideas that you did not expect to hear from the Tikriti clan.

BLITZER: And just for our viewers who may just be tuning in, Tariq Aziz, the former deputy prime minister of Iraq, now in U.S. custody somewhere presumably inside Iraq.

Jim, you were in Baghdad before the first Gulf War, after the Iraqis invaded Kuwait, before the U.S.-led coalition began the war in January 1991. You remember, I'm sure, very vividly, as I do, the meeting that Tariq Aziz had with the then U.S. Secy. of State James Baker, in Geneva. That was the last ditch effort. That was the last moment that the U.S. and the coalition at that time tried to convince the Iraqis to get out of Kuwait.

Bring us a little bit of perspective on Tariq Aziz's role at that time, in the hours leading up to the first Gulf War.

CLANCY: Well, just, it was classic Tariq Aziz.

He comes out tough, he says I'm here for peace, all of this can be avoided, let's talk.

James Baker was carrying a letter from then President Bush and he wanted to give it to Saddam Hussein. Tariq Aziz refused to take it, because Tariq Aziz knew what it was. It was the ultimatum and Tariq Aziz wasn't going to take it from him.

He knew that the game was being played, and he knew what kind of effect it would have if he held his own and just said I am not taking the letter from you.

It was -- it was Tariq Aziz. It was that tough front that he gave.

Yes, he was articulate. Yes, he was intelligent. But he was also tough.

BLITZER: Jim Clancy, please standby because we're going to continue our coverage of this important development.

The U.S. now has within its hands Tariq Aziz, the former deputy prime minister of Iraq, perhaps -- perhaps after Saddam Hussein himself the most recognized Iraqi face, at least here in the United States.

We're going to have much more coverage on this. We're standing by. The president is expected to return to the White House momentarily. We'll have coverage of that as well. The Central Command expected to make a formal announcement shortly on the arrest, the capture, the surrender, if you will, of Tariq Aziz. We're not sure exactly how it happened, but we're going to continue our coverage. WOLF BLITZER REPORTS will have much more as soon as we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back.

We're following a breaking story. The U.S. now has within it's hands Tariq Aziz, the former deputy prime minister of Iraq, the former foreign minister of Iraq, the eight of spades as listed among the 55 most wanted Iraqis. He was No. 43 out of 55.

Tariq Aziz, perhaps after Saddam Hussein the most recognized Iraqi face here in the United States, perhaps around the world. Tariq Aziz now in U.S. custody.

Let's go over to the Pentagon. Chris Plante is standing by. He broke this story for us. For those viewers, Chris, who might just be tuning in, is there official confirmation yet from the U.S. Central Command at Doha, Qatar, that Tariq Aziz is now within U.S. custody.

PLANTE: No. The answer is no. Official on the record confirmation from the Central Command has not happened. That will happen when they put out a piece of paper. That piece of paper is expected relatively soon. But we have official, flat out, yes, we have him in custody confirmation here in the hallways of the Pentagon and official confirmation, more official confirmation is expected soon.

As I think I said a bit earlier, this earlier this afternoon with a rumor that a senior member of the regime had been taken into custody. That rumor then became Tariq Aziz, that Tariq Aziz has been taken into custody.

As you said a few minutes ago there were rumors early on in the military conflict that Tariq Aziz had fled the country. We still don't know if that was the case or not. Our producer here, Mike Mount (ph), a short time ago speaking to some officials in the hall, was not able to get anything additional in the way of details on this except to get the absolute official, yes, we have him in custody. We're, you know, we're -- no more word games. He is in U.S. custody. We don't know where that is. Is that inside Iraq? We don't know. Did he flee the country and decide that because he was the public face of Iraq he wouldn't be able to hide out very well and maybe broker a deal of some kind to turn himself in? We don't know.

We're still waiting for a lot in the way of details from officialdom here. And it wouldn't be at all surprising, as you know, Wolf, if some of the details were sketchy or not very well defined for some time to come. Particularly if Tariq Aziz did turn himself in with some conditions. I'm not saying that we know he did, but certainly a man in his position, if he were to turn himself in would have some bargaining power. So it wouldn't be at all surprising.

But that said, as I'm sure Ken Pollack can address, this is a man who has been very close to the regime for a very long time and certainly will bring a lot to the table when it comes to U.S. intelligence, interrogators trying to get information from him as to the history their weapons of mass destruction program, as to the whereabouts of other senior regime leaders, including, perhaps, Saddam Hussein, his sons Uday and Qusay, other senior leaders.

And as Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld has said over and over again, they expect really that they're going to get their best information regarding the weapons of mass destruction programs and other major issues from senior regime leaders once they take them into custody.

Now, they've stepped up that program a little bit. It started as something of a trickle after Baghdad fell taking in an official after a couple of days, another official after a couple of days. Seems to be accelerating that the pace of regime officials coming into the hands of the coalition seems to be increasing. And, of course, intelligence analysts and military people here at the Pentagon take that as a very good sign.

It could potentially be a very important find for the U.S. military and for U.S. intelligence. There have been a couple other senior regime people including a man described as the father of Iraq's nuclear program who was taken into custody last week. And another man who was the science adviser, chief science adviser to Saddam Hussein.

Now when they came in, according to the public reports at least, what they said to U.S. officials as they came into their custody was that there were no more weapons of mass destruction. That there were at one time, but they no longer had possession of weapons of mass destruction. This is of course not what the U.S. wanted to hear. They're hopeful still that they'll be able to get ahold of other regime leaders who will be able to point them in the direction they want to go and that is the smoking gun.

They have been looking for the smoking gun so they can show the world that the motivation for this invasion was entirely justified, that the regime was, in fact, hiding a secretive weapons of mass destruction program over the course of time that did pose a threat. And this is, of course, very crucial for the U.S. at this point. And at no point has the administration here or Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld wavered in his belief that they will eventually be able to establish that these programs do exist or at least did exist until very recently.

As you know some reports that these weapons were destroyed by Iraqi forces as coalition forces approached the gates of Baghdad. So if that's the case, then certainly you want to get your hands on the people that were involved in the destruction of those programs to bring you to the locations so that soil samples and other such things would be able to be establish, effectively at least, the smoking gun that this administration has been looking for -- Wolf.

BLITZER: All right, Chris Plante at the Pentagon. He's going ahead and work his sources together with his colleagues over there, get some more information for us. Soon as you get the official confirmation from the U.S. military Central Command, let us know, Chris. We'll of course put that on the air right away. No one at CNN has been covering this Iraq story as thoroughly as our Nic Robertson. He's back in Baghdad right now. He's joining us on the phone.

Nic, word that -- official conformation, we're standing by -- but we have confirmed that Tariq Aziz is now in the U.S. military custody somewhere, presumably in Iraq. Give our viewers some perspective on this very dramatic development.

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, certainly Tariq Aziz absolutely at the heart of administration in Iraq for so many years. There were rumors that he had drifted out of favor in recent years. Perhaps people speculated that was why he had not made so many overseas trips.

He did very much come to -- come to symbolize the Iraqi regime during the Gulf War, where he was -- where he met with Baker in Geneva, where he made many international trips trying to -- trying to garner support for Iraq within the region. But there was speculation that his move to deputy prime minister in recent years, away from foreign minister, had essentially weakened his position, did not give him a big international voice. He did not play such an important part in the regime.

But -- but every senior international visitor who would come to Baghdad would meet with Tariq Aziz. He was almost the gatekeeper, if you will, for the -- for Saddam Hussein, for other members of the Ba'ath Party regime in Baghdad. And he will, as much as any of the other leaders within the Ba'ath Party, will have huge resource to information about so many aspects of how they ran the country and what programs they may have been administering in terms of weapons of mass destruction, so many things for the regime that the coalition would like to have interested in -- have interest in and perhaps, most importantly, shed light on the whereabouts or the -- or what Saddam Hussein may have been thinking. Was he thinking to leave Iraq? Where would he go? What were his options? Who would he have been talking to? Perhaps Aziz having some insights there into -- into what other members of the Ba'ath Party had been planning for in terms of their exit and hiding once the coalition took control of the country, Wolf.

BLITZER: Nic, you remember -- it was about, I'm guessing, 10 days or so ago, maybe two weeks ago or so when Tariq Aziz's home in Baghdad, his villa, a very lovely estate, if you will, was ransacked, was looted at that time. I was still out there in the Persian Gulf and I remember several of the Arab, non-Iraqis saying they felt sorry for Tariq Aziz. He was simply trying to do his job under the thumb of a brutal regime a regime, a regime like Saddam Hussein. How much sympathy will Tariq Aziz have inside Iraq and outside Iraq right now, Nic?

ROBERTSON: Well, there certainly may be some people who would feel that way, but many people would remember Tariq Aziz as aligning himself with Saddam Hussein and the Ba'ath Party as early as the 1950s and tracking a course with them ever since, being a spokesman for the Ba'ath Party in the early 1960s, becoming a member of the regional command in 1974, 1997 becoming of the top echelon of the party, the Revolutionary Command Council in 1997. There will perhaps be many people who feel he was -- may be have been the international public face for the regime, but was as much part of the regime as many of the others.

He perhaps will be more fondly remembered, possibly, by some elements of the Christian community who maybe looked toward as representing their views within the leadership within Iraq. But there will be perhaps others who believed he would have -- he sold out and was as much a member of the Ba'ath Party, was as much a reason for the problems Iraq, had the war with Iran, the U.N. sanctions, that he -- that his and the party's beliefs and followings of Saddam Hussein were the root of the country's problems.

So in some circles he may, yes, find people who would have at least some decent memories of him. But many -- likely many, just as many other people, Wolf, would think of him as being a senior member of the regime. Nothing more, nothing less. The root of their problems.

BLITZER: Nic, please stand by.

I want to bring back our White House correspondent, John King. The president, I take it, John, has now landed a the White House.

KING: He has landed, Wolf, and he has gone back inside the White House. And as we discussed earlier the word was passed to the president as he was making his way back to the White House from Ohio. Two speeches out there today assessing the war effort, but mostly promoting his economic plan.

As soon as Marine One landed and the president stepped off, reporters out back on the south grounds of the White House tried to get the president's reaction to this news. Let's listen to a bit.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

QUESTION: What about Tariq Aziz?

(LAUGHTER)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Clear from the president's smile at the end that he heard the shouted question there from a group of reporters in unison saying, "What about Tariq Aziz?" The president generally does not stop and take questions on the way into the White House unless he has something he wants to say. But he did get the question, turn and smile and give that thumbs-up sign.

Wolf, the president back inside the White House now. Officials here say they're still getting only the most smallest of details about this. They say Central Command will make the announcement and that's the way the president wants it. As we did report earlier one official here telling CNN he has been told that Tariq Aziz turned himself in, but the official is trying to get confirmation and more information about that. We do not have that information just yet. The White House says symbolically they view this as a key development, a key face, a figure if you will, in the Saddam Hussein regime being captured, it helps the White House make the case that one by one and day by day, as one senior official put it, the search continues. But as to what he knows, they say here at the White House, they are bit skeptical he has major information.

BLITZER: All right, John King at the White House. That thumbs up from the president, that smile clearly spoke 1,000 words, if you will. The president, clearly, very happy. Tariq Aziz, the former deputy prime minister of Iraq now in U.S. custody.

On April 1 of this year he gave an interview to the LBC, the Lebanese Broadcasting Corporation and he lashed out bitterly at President Bush. Let's listen to a brief excerpt.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

AZIZ (through translator): We do not want to become a religious struggle. This is between independent and imperialism. Britain has historically had history in the area, and ignorant Bush thinks that he is a super power, and that he can control Iraq and the region and oil and therefore the world.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Ignorant Bush, strong words from Tariq Aziz describing the current president of the United States. He never had pleasant words for the president's father either during the first Gulf War.

Ken Pollack is back with us from the Brookings Institute, our Iraq analyst spent many years over at the CIA and the National Security Council studying Iraq and learning a great deal about it. Tariq Aziz, obviously well known a well-known figure to the west, presumably well known inside Iraq, as well.

Will this convince the Iraqi people that Saddam Hussein is basically gone forever?

POLLACK: I think that is one of the most important reasons why the capture of Tariq Aziz is important for the United States, for the Iraqi people, Wolf. This will hopefully convince the Iraqi people that Saddam's regime really is gone.

As John King was alluding to in his report, Tariq Aziz is important as a symbol. He was a symbol of the regime. He was one of the most visible members of the highest level of the regime. He was a face who all Iraqis knew, all the world knew. For many Iraqis knowing he is in captivity will hopefully reassure them that Saddam's really is finished. It's not going to be able to come back. It's not going to bite them. It's not going to reconstitute and seize power at some point in the future.

BLITZER: When he joined the Ba'ath party in the late '50s it was a very secular party, tried to unite all the people of Iraq, the Sunnis, the Shi'a, the Kurds in the north, the Turkman, all the various ethnic groups, presumably that's why a Christian like Tariq Aziz felt comfortable Ba'ath party. But over they years, especially the recently years, hasn't the Ba'ath party changed moved away from that earlier secular tradition?

POLLACK: I don't think they have necessarily moved away from the earlier secular tradition, so much as they have moved away from the earlier ideology. The Ba'ath party early on was very fiercely ideological. They had this weird combination of panArabism, and socialism and they were very committed to that. I think Tariq Aziz when he first joined the party was committed to it's ideology, as well. But over the course of time, especially with the emergence of Saddam Hussein as the leader of the Ba'ath party, the Ba'ath party's ideology is what fell to the wayside. And religious ties, ethnic ties, ideology, all of that stuff just became secondary to the cult of personality around Saddam Hussein and what it was Saddam wanted. I think this is when Tariq Aziz started to made a real deal with the devil. Basicly giving up whatever ideological inclinations he had coming to the Ba'ath, and making himself a tool of Saddam Hussein's megalomania.

BLITZER: One final question before I let you go, Ken. The fact that he emerged as a very useful aid to Saddam Hussein over the years. He was a Christian, most recently in February he went to the Vatican to meet with the Pope. Earlier last year when I interviewed him he was in South Africa for a meeting. I presume Saddam Hussein saw this Christian Iraqi as someone who could speak to the West, Speak to the Europeans, to the outside world.

Even though within Saddam Hussein's inner circle there were plenty of Iraqi leaders that did not like Tariq Aziz, is that right?

POLLACK: I think you have categorized it very nicely, Wolf, which is that Tariq Aziz was a very useful tool for Saddam Hussein. He was someone who the Iraqis believed could speak well to the world, to the West because he was a Christian. That was a very nice symbol. We're not simply a bunch of Sunnis Muslims here, we do include everyone. Tariq Aziz and another Iraqi Mohummed Hamzah El-Zebeidi, another deputy prime minister who was a Shi'a and recently captured by U.S. Central Command was another one who they could show off and say we do represent all of Iraq's population.

But as best we understand it, and as John King was suggesting, Tariq Aziz really wasn't a member of Saddam's inner sanctum decision making. When it came to important foreign policy decisions, it's interesting, all the information we have about Tariq Aziz and his participation in those most important foreign policy decisions, within every single case that he tried to advise Saddam and he was simply ignored.

BLITZER: Ken Pollack, thanks very much for you analyst. If you can stand by we're going to have to go take a quick break. And we have much more coverage of this breaking story. Tariq Aziz, the former deputy prime minister of Iraq now in U.S. military custody. We're standing by for official word from the U.S. military Central Command in Doha, Qatar, Camp (UNINTELLIGIBLE) just outside of Doha. We're going to bring that to you as soon as we get it. When we come back we also have something you want to see, some exclusive home video of Saddam Hussein that we just obtained, as well as some video of his son Uday Hussein. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back. If you've been watching CNN for the last hour plus, you know the big headline right now. Tariq Aziz, perhaps the most recognized Iraqi after Saddam Hussein is now in U.s. Military custody. We're standing by for an official statement from the U.S. military Central Command. We're going to bring that to you as soon as we get that statement. But we have more details coming in on how this unfolded, rather dramatic details.

Let's bring in our national security correspondent, David Ensor -- David.

DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Tariq Aziz, turned himself in late today Baghdad time, I'm told by U.S. officials. He did that after an intermediary went to the Americans in Baghdad yesterday, and said that Tariq Aziz might be interested in turning himself in. I do not know whether the intermediary asked for anything in return, but I'm told by U.S. officials, as one put it, we don't make deals. Now, one of the key questions is how useful may he be to American officials who are obviously looking for the rest of the leadership, and for the weapons of mass destruction, they are convinced to be found in Baghdad.

On that, U.S. officials say they don't believe that Tariq Aziz is likely to know where weapons of mass destruction are, but they do believe that he is likely to know whether or not they exist. That he will be likely able to confirm the existence of certain types of weapons of mass destruction at a minimum.

He's also likely to know, in the view of some U.S. officials, where some of the other senior officials may be. He may, for example, be able to say definitively whether Saddam Hussein survived either or both of the two attempts to kill him early on in the war.

BLITZER: So there potentially could be a lot, a lot of important information. When you suggest that there was an intermediary that stepped in 24 hours before he surrendered himself to U.S. authority in Baghdad, that suggests there's a deal that he's ready to talk to spill the beans and cooperate with U.S. authorities. Am I going too far?

ENSOR: Well, I don't know. That's the thing. I mean I know from U.S. officials that there was an intermediary who came, who approached the Americans in Baghdad and said, you know, I'm speaking on behalf of Tariq Aziz, he might be interested in turning himself in. It may be that he might have asked for something in return. I am assured that nothing was given in return.

BLITZER: All right, David Ensor, please stand by because we're going to continue to monitor this important story. Tariq Aziz, the deputy prime minister of Iraq, the former deputy prime minister, that is, now in U.S. military custody. All of this is unfolding as CNN has obtained some exclusive videotapes of both Saddam Hussein and his families dating back to the late 1980s. They were made the Iraqi leader was then at the peak of his power.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER (voice-over): From the Hussein family archives, homespun images of a dictator in his hayday. These tapes offer glimpses into the private lives of Saddam Hussein and his family. We see Saddam and his first wife, Sajida, before their separation walking in the snow- covered mountains near Dohuk. A military aide is seen with them.

There's a younger, thinner Saddam celebrating his 50th birthday in 1987. On that tape, children can be heard in the background chanting tributes to, quote, "Father Saddam."

CON COUGHLIN, AUTHOR: The first thing that strikes you about the Saddam tape is that he's celebrating of his birthday surrounded by bodyguards. So even going back to all those years, Saddam was felling very insecure. I think you said it was 1988. Well, that was just after the war with Iran ended. Saddam was claiming victory in that war, he was a victorious war leader. But clearly he wasn't trusting anybody.

BLITZER: Another tape shows Sajida and other members of Saddam's regime them greeting Queen Noor of Jordan. Noor is now the widow of King Hussein.

There's video of Saddam visiting a wounded soldier. Saddam giving Sajida a kiss good-bye as she departs for Cairo. And Saddam on a driving tour.

Sajida's whereabouts are now unknown, but these tapes were obtained from one of her Baghdad residences. She is the mother of Qusay Hussein, three daughters and the notorious elder son Uday, whose own home video library offers eerie and fascinating images.

This tape shows Uday feeding his pet lions in at private backyard zoo in one of his villas. It's not known exactly when this was taped, but it's clearly after the 1996 assassination attempt on Uday in which he was shot 17 times.

COUGHLIN: You can see there's a lot of strain there. The effort standing, even standing still for some period of time is quite a strain.

BLITZER: This villa was hit during coalition bombs by the current war. It's not known if the lions survived.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: And let's get back to our breaking story, an important story. Tariq Aziz, the former deputy prime minister of Iraq now in U.S. custody. Two of our best reports, Nic Robertson, Jim Clancy, they're both joining me now live from Baghdad. We'll get to them in just one moment.

But CNN's Marty Savidge is joining us on the phone as well. He was in Baghdad just the day before Tariq Aziz's home in Baghdad was ransacked. Refresh our viewers, Marty. Tell us what exactly you saw at the time in Baghdad.

MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well the first time we went into Tariq Aziz's home was on the day that Marines pushed into the eastern side of Baghdad. That was the monumental day that the big statue came crashing down.

And it was on that evening that the Marines immediately went to the home of Tariq Aziz, one, to see if he was home. Two, to try to find about -- find out where he had fled to. So they blew the door off the home, made entry into the home, but didn't take anything. They were specifically trying to locate the man or information as to his whereabouts.

Then it was the next day that we went back during the daylight hours, again, to try to see if there was more information that might prove or point a trail to the Iraqi leadership, where they had gone. And it was then that you started see the looting had already started taking place. Everything and anything that was not nailed down was quickly disappearing in the hands of Iraqi civilians -- Wolf.

BLITZER: And those pictures that we've been showing our viewers clearly demonstrates that. Marty Savidge, thanks very much.

Let's bring back Nic Robertson and Jim Clancy. They're joining us now live from Baghdad. Jim, you have had a little time to absorb the enormity of this development. Tariq Aziz, one of the symbols of the Saddam Hussein era, the Saddam Hussein regime now in U.S. custody. You heard David Ensor say through an intermediary he surrendered himself to U.S. authorities. What do you make of that?

CLANCY: What I make of it is the interesting question here is was he in Baghdad or in another country like Damascus, Syria? If he was there and this is negotiated, it's symbol that the regional power there, Syria putting pressure on members of the regime who may have fled there. We don't know that yet.

If it's here in Baghdad that negotiating process flies in the face of what he said just before the war, that he would fight, along with other members of the regime, to the last bullet. He did not want to end up in Guantanamo Bay with the al Qaeda prisoners.

Tariq Aziz is a proud man. Handing himself over to the United States means one thing, the regime is well and truly finished.

BLITZER: All right, stand by for a second. David Ensor still with me here in our Washington bureau. He could answer that question. Did he hand himself over in Baghdad or Syria or some place else?

ENSOR: Baghdad.

BLITZER: Baghdad for sure? ENSOR: Yes.

BLITZER: All right, so you heard it from Dave Ensor, he's got it hard here in Washington. Tariq Aziz surrendered after some discussions through an intermediary, he surrendered in Baghdad.

Nic Robertson, what does that say to you?

ROBERTSON: It says that obviously he hadn't fled the country, that he must have been here, they he'd gone to ground. It might indicate that more Iraqi officials and leadership figures are still here in Baghdad. It might even indicate that Saddam Hussein is still around.

Again, it may indicate that the fall of Baghdad was so quick Saddam Hussein and his sons may be took off and all these other leading officials just left in the wake. Perhaps the realization for them that to Saddam Hussein they were very little more than props on a much greater stage.

Tariq Aziz also said that he would rather die than end his days in an American jail. So perhaps the indication from all of this is that he doesn't think that is where he's going to end up. Maybe he has cut himself a deal. We -- David say no deals would be made but Aziz there coming forward and deciding to hand himself in. Did he have no other options or something on offer that was too good to miss here?

BLITZER: Jim Clancy, there's been a lot of speculation that the families, the wives, the children of some of these top Iraqis may have escaped even before the war even started or perhaps in the early days. Do you have any sense that Tariq Aziz's family remains in Baghdad or perhaps they were among those that may have gotten out?

CLANCY: I don't have any sense of that. I don't know the answer to that question. But was I do know is that there came a point in time when members of the regime probably realized it was safer to stay right here in Baghdad in a neighborhood they knew then to get out on the highway where Special Operation troops or U.S. helicopters might run them down. It's a matter of security.

Now for one reason or another, perhaps they feel that they have to cut a deal, they have to hand themselves over. Tariq Aziz perhaps feeling that he will be able to get some kind of a deal that perhaps he doesn't have as much to fear as other members of the regime.

BLITZER: The fact, Nic, that Tariq Aziz was able to hideout in Baghdad over these past several weeks, it suggests that there's a lot of places for someone with some influence to still manage to hide out in the Iraqi capital. Presumably, that suggests that there are plenty of other Iraqi leaders, maybe even in Baghdad.

ROBERTSON: Absolutely. It's an indication really that although there are a lot of the U.S. troops on the ground here, they just haven't been able to go neighborhood to neighborhood. And even (UNINTELLIGIBLE) reports of that first night when the Marines hit the edge of Baghdad on the eastern side, they made a beeline for Aziz's house, realizing, thinking that it was an important place. But obviously many more locations, maybe more leaders hidden in Baghdad -- Wolf.

BLITZER: All right, Nice Robertson, Jim Clancy doing outstanding work for us.

We're going continue to watch this story. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. Lou Dobbs is going to pick up our breaking news coverage. He's standing by in New York.

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