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American Morning
Stop and Start Fighting Between Marines, Iraqi Insurgents in Fallujah; 'Paging Dr. Gupta'
Aired April 29, 2003 - 08:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning. Welcome back, everybody. Just about half past the hour on this AMERICAN MORNING. We've been talking about this with Jack all morning, and it's actually generating lots of e-mails, the siege in Fallujah, putting a spotlight on the U.S. military strategy in Iraq, there specifically, and really across Iraq. Of course there are some attempts to stop the insurgency without further enraging the Iraqis as a whole.
In just a few moments, we're going to talk with retired General David Grange, and of course he, too, has his own ideas about this particular cease-fire.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Also this half hour, going back to Turkey's Mt. Ararat one more time, looking for Noah's Ark. We'll talk to the leader of an expedition planned for this summer. Could this be the one trip that solves the mystery once and for all. They think they're on to something. We'll talk to them here in a moment.
O'BRIEN: Really? That would be nice. Can you imagine? Finding Noah's Ark? How great would that be?
All right, let's get to our top stories this morning. There will be no official record when President Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney go before the 9/11 commission. That is one of the details being released about tomorrow's closed-door session. The president will not be under oath. White House Press Secretary Scott McClellan says it's due to the classified nature of the information discussed. There will be no official transcript of the private meeting.
United Nations offices are closed in Syria today following a car bombing in Damascus. Four people were killed yesterday after a group of terrorists set off a bomb in the capital city's diplomatic quarters. U.S. embassy is also closed. Americans have been urged to stay home.
Secretary of State Colin Powell at an international conference on anti-Semitism in Berlin, Germany. Secretary Powell is accompanied by Holocaust survivor and Nobel Peace Prize winner Ili Reisel (ph). Powell is expected to discuss the war in Iraq with European officials during their two-day meet.
An amazing story of survival out of Wyoming. An 18-month-old girl is found alive after 30 hours, after a terrible car accident. The car crash killed her father. Ray Lynn Miller is suffering dehydration and possibly broken bones as well. She was discovered yesterday by a police officer who was jogging on the road where the accident happened.
And Oscar-winning actress Marcia Gay Harden is doing double duty now, and then some. Really, she already has a daughter, so triple duty now. She gave birth to twins, a little girl and a boy. Harden also has a 5-year-old daughter at home. Her publicists has said everybody is doing well, except nobody is sleeping. Harden won a supporting Oscar for her 2000 roll in the film Pollack, and she was also nominated for last year's "Mystic River." You go, girl. I'm watching you every step of the way.
HEMMER: Want some advice?
O'BRIEN: You think it's too soon to call her up? Hey, Marcia, how is it going?
Good for her. That's nice news.
(WEATHER UPDATE)
HEMMER: It seems that stop and start fighting again between U.S. Marines and Iraqi insurgents in Fallujah starting yet again today. Reports from Fallujah this morning say gunfire and a series of explosions were heard for more than an hour. It follows yesterday's bombardment of insurgent targets in that town. A large weapons cache and several homes were destroyed. All this as Marines and Iraqi security forces are scheduled to begin joint patrols of Fallujah tomorrow. Retired U.S. Army Brigadier General, CNN military analyst David Grange back with us today.
Good morning, general.
BRIG. GEN. DAVID GRANGE, (RET.) CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Good morning.
HEMMER: I want you to listen to a commander in Fallujah, the U.S. Marines, an interview he gave earlier today, and we'll talk about what it means. Listen here.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CAPT. DOUGLAS ZEMBEC, U.S. MARINES: We've been playing patty cake with these insurgents. We have not begun to do offensive operations. And the world will see that when we do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HEMMER: The phrase he uses is "patty cake." How do we interpret that?
GRANGE: Well, limited operations. I don't think there's a massive ground assault ongoing. I think it's an option that the coalition force has, but doesn't want to use, unless they really are forced to do so. And so these are limited operations, where they have known insurgent strongholds, and they'll take them down. The idea is not to alienate more Iraqis if possible. Try to resolve it peacefully if they can, but where there are insurgents that are resistant, then they'll take them out. These are not full-scale operations.
HEMMER: We heard from an embedded reporter yesterday, saying the Marines could do this job in 24 hours. Do you believe that to be the case?
GRANGE: I don't think you could do a city in 24 hours this size when -- unless you secure it, if you're talking about securing certain objectives. But then there's always the consolidation phase, and the cleanup phase, and that always takes a long time. So, no, I don't believe that.
HEMMER: There's some fliers dropped yesterday over Fallujah, specifically over this neighborhood. I think it's called Joelan (ph). That's where most of the insurgents are now holed up. On the screen we can show our viewers, "Surrender, you are surrounded. If you are a terrorist, beware, because your last day was yesterday. In order to spare your life, end your actions and surrender to coalition forces now. We are coming to arrest you."
Do the fliers work, or is this intimidation?
GRANGE: Well, to some extent. Sometimes when fliers are written, to influence an action through psychological warfare, they have a reverse affect, because the culture you are trying to reach interprets it different than you think they are. But in this case, I think other people will pick up these fliers besides these insurgents and they'll say, hey, I've got to get out of the way, which is a good thing. Insurgents will pick it up and say, they mean business, it's a hopeless situation. On the moral side of this fight, maybe I should get out of here or turn in my stuff.
HEMMER: Going back to the Afghan war, the AC-130 gunship really became popular and well known to the American public as a result of that war. Used again last night. You say you have flown these aircraft before. Tell us about them.
GRANGE: Well, I haven't flown them, but i've used them. They are excellent airplanes, when they can fly. Obviously, they are vulnerable to certain surface-to-air missiles, weaponry. One was knocked down in the first Iraqi war over Kuwait City. But they bring in fire very close to the ground troops, very accurate. They can distinguish between certain vehicles on the road. They can pick up people. They can say, OK, I want to hit the fifth building in a row of five on the north side, and they'll hit that particular building or that side of the building. Very accurate. Very effective, and the ground troops love them.
HEMMER: Wow, can hit a target from 8,000 feet, you say.
GRANGE: That's right.
HEMMER: Thank you, general, David Grange there in Illinois -- Soledad.
O'BRIEN: Well, today is Saddam Hussein's 67th birthday. Yesterday, members of the International Red Cross Committee met with the former Iraqi president. On CNN, coalition spokesman Dan Senor was asked whether Saddam was cooperating with his interrogators.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAN SENOR, COALITION SPOKESMAN: He is not being cooperative. Early on, we were being told that there was intelligence being gathered by the documents that were with him that shed some insight into the nature of the insurgency, how it was being financed and some other related matters. But that was strictly a function of the documents he had with him and some related information. He, himself, has not been terribly cooperative.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O'BRIEN: Saddam Hussein has been held at an undisclosed location since he was captured on December 13th.
HEMMER: I want to get back to Fallujah in a moment here, waiting for these pictures. They are live pictures now, coming into us from Fallujah. We're not quite sure what's happening at this hour. But what we do know, in the past hour, some fighting, some degree of fighting, has resumed there. This coming the morning after the night last night, if you were with us yesterday afternoon, right around 2:30 Eastern Time when we saw those pictures, Karl Penhaul and other embedded with the Marines, that nightscope video that showed the AC- 130 gunships targeting two specific buildings, and ultimately, we know now, they were ammunition cache -- stashes there in the town of Fallujah.
O'BRIEN: The description is that the bombing was so overwhelming that it was lighting up the sky, so it looked like daylight to the folks who were able to take a look at this. And of course we've been talking about the various options in Fallujah, none them truly very encouraging. One is the military option to go in and essentially level it, give the insurgents and everybody else an opportunity to get out, and then go in and start doing the door-to-door combat as they talk about.
And of course, the negotiation option, which thus far does not seem to be reaping any huge benefits. They talk about a cease-fire, which seems to be, as we heard a little bit earlier from Tony Perry, who's embedded with the Marines, he said, among the people he's with, it's essentially a joke. They are taking fire every day. They don't see a cease-fire really as an actual cease-fire.
HEMMER: This video film is courtesy of the pool with the U.S. Marines there, embedded deep into that town of Fallujah, with the helicopters in the air. We will keep a close eye on this, not exactly sure what's happening there, but as soon as we can sort it out, we'll pass it along to you. That's the scene at this hour in Fallujah.
In a moment here, enemy combatants held without a set trial. What rights do they have? That question is before the Supreme Court. We'll that next hour here.
O'BRIEN: Also, it's supposed to be the happiest time in a woman's life, bringing your new baby home, but some moms find it much more difficult than others. Dr. Sanjay Gupta is going to talk about postpartum depression. It's all part of our newborn series, just ahead.
Also heading up to Mt. Ararat in search of Noah's Ark. Some explorers hope to get an answer to the question of whether or not it is there. Back in a moment, after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O'BRIEN: In the third part of our series on newborns, we take a look at the dark side of new motherhood, postpartum depression. Dr. Sanjay Gupta joins us to explain just what it is and how it differs from the baby blues. Everybody I know sort of has the baby blues, which is you're just an emotional, hormonal wreck after you have a child, but it's very different. Postpartum depression is completely different?
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: It really is completely different, and you're absolutely right, you know, going through pregnancy is a considerable change in hormones for a woman. About 80 percent of women get some baby blues after the birth of their baby. But about one in five to one in 10 will actually have a major depressive episode before their baby is a year old. So that first year very crucial. Many moms to are going to be affected by this, and it should not be ignored.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GUPTA (voice-over): Your bundle of joy has finally arrived, and you've just joined the new moms club. Well, get ready. You may be joining yet another, the baby blues club.
HEIDI MURKOFF, AUTHOR, "WHAT TO EXPECT WHEN YOU'RE EXPECTING": With baby blues, you're weepy, you're sad, you are hormonal, you are feeling a little overwhelmed, and who can blame you. But you know, with a little TLC and a little extra rest, most blue moms start to feel relative in the pink within a couple of weeks or so.
GUPTA: But in 10 percent to 15 percent of new moms, the blues don't go away. They didn't for this mom.
SANDRA, POSTPARTUM MOM: A lot of anxiety, panic attacks, just feeling like I couldn't leave home, feeling like I was a little bit worthless, because here I had this beautiful, new baby, had a wonderful 3-year-old, and things, in my eyes, were just terrible.
GUPTA: Eventually, Sandra was diagnosed with postpartum depression, which is like any other major depression, except it usually starts sometime after the baby is born in the postpartum period.
SANDRA: I've never been depressed before in my life. I didn't know what I was experiencing was depression, really.
DR. DIANA DELL, DUKE UNIVERSITY: Easily half of women with postpartum depression have never been depressed before.
GUPTA: Symptoms of which can include hopelessness, anxiety, lack of interest in your baby, feelings of guilt of not being a good mother, and another important one, lack of sleep.
SANDRA: Not being able to sleep compounds some of that feelings that you are getting of hopelessness. How am I going to get up and do this, because you are physically tired and you are mentally exhausted.
GUPTA: Sandra sought professional help.
DR. ZACHARY STOWE, EMORY UNIVERSITY: I think that just letting them know that it can happen is the first step. And then if it does happen, letting them know that, in my opinion, it is one of the easiest things to treat that I have encountered in psychiatry.
GUPTA: Sandra went to therapy, got the advice and support from other moms and took antidepression medication, which was safe, even though she was breast feeding.
SANDRA: You are much better off if you are -- if you see somebody, get some help, whether it's medication or not medication, because then that allows you to be better for your family, get your depression under control.
GUPTA: Good advice for any new mom.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GUPTA: Easy to treat, very common, if recognized early. Another study out, interesting, that about one-third of women, if they are going to have depression, it actually starts at the end of their pregnancy, as opposed to after the baby is born, really important to recognize this early.
O'BRIEN: All right, Sanjay, thanks a lot, appreciate it -- Bill.
GUPTA: Thank you.
HEMMER: Soledad, I want to go back to that live picture by way of videophone. The pool reporters there set up with the U.S. Marines. Karl Penhaul is the pool reporter. He's already begun his report from Fallujah. Let's drop in and listen now.
A bit difficult to hear that report. Tell you what we're learning right now. Just in the past hour, when the fighting erupted yet again, the indication we have is that three different homes or three different buildings are now being targeted, said to house a number of insurgents inside of Fallujah. All this coming the day after the blast of last night and that nightscope video we've been watching now throughout the morning, when at least two buildings were targeted by those giant AC-130 gunships. The Marines say that ammunition was being stored inside those buildings. We do not have confirmation on what is inside the targets today, but the early indications tell us at least insurgents have been taking refuge in there. That tenuous cease-fire, that on again/off again cease-fire has been debated whether it's a legitimate cease-fire or not. Also getting indications today that sheikhs from around Iraq are converging on Fallujah, perhaps going into the city tomorrow to serve as mediators between the U.S. Marines and the Iraqi insurgents, to possibly find some sort of political solution and some sort of way out of this.
As the smoke drifts into the sky, we've seen a number of helicopters, including ones like these, in the skies above Fallujah. Again, it remains a very tenuous and precarious moment for both sides at this point.
Laktar Brahimi (ph) yesterday with the U.N. Security Council here in New York, indicating that some sort of political solution has to be achieved here, expressing hope that something could come out of this, and warning that a very bloody confrontation could result unless an agreement is arrived at and reached, and Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld yesterday at the Pentagon, saying I think you've got some very tough people inside of that city.
Again, we do not know exactly what's happening in Fallujah, just the latest signal we're watching by way of videophone. U.S. Marines, 2,000 strong, surrounding that city. We are told upwards of 7,000 Marines may be in the immediate area if called upon to join in the assault on Fallujah.
O'BRIEN: They have said, of course, that what they are doing right now is essentially pattycake. There was an interview they ran a little bit earlier from one of the Marines, who said, you know, this is not an offensive by any such of the imagination, and when it actually does happen, you will see it.
Which, again, brings you back to the debate, which is the best strategy to go forward with? Because there does seem to be no question about whether, if the Marines are given the opportunity to go in and take the city, that they will be able to accomplish that. But, of course, it's the issue of collateral damage and the issue of lives lost on the part of the U.S. soldiers there as well. You know, does it make it worth it?
Then you have the negotiations. You talked about the sheikhs who are arriving to continue the negotiations. You have the diplomats who are already there negotiating.
It was interesting, earlier, we were talking to Senator Biden, who says he's hopeful for diplomatic solutions, when actually there seems to be no real indication, I think, from many perspectives why to be hopeful, because of course it doesn't seem like any of the people inside Fallujah are turning over the insurgents who are responsible for those four contractors who were killed, it doesn't seem as if anybody is turning in any weapons that are actually worthwhile weapons. So it doesn't, you know, it's the classic of between a rock and a hard place, and as you mentioned, we are seeing renewed fighting out of Fallujah this morning, hard to tell what's happening there, but we're get more information on it. HEMMER: We've had two embedded reporters with us throughout this ordeal, Tony Perry of "The L.A. Times," "Christian Science Monitor" reporter Scott Peterson. And speaking with them yesterday and again today, they have given us indication that the Marines could take this town in 24 hours, perhaps overly optimistic, especially when you consider urban warfare.
There's also the suggestion that if you've sealed off the town, perhaps you've eliminated the amount of ammunition that go in and out of Fallujah. Some suggestions say because the Marines have been engaged in firefights for several days, that the ammunition on behalf of the insurgents is running very low. Whether that's the case or not, we cannot say for certain.
But we do have suggestions from a number of military analysts who have looked at this from the outside and they are convinced that a number of Iraqi fighters inside Fallujah will fight to the death, and that is their desire, to defend themselves in Fallujah.
O'BRIEN: At the same time, Tony Perry was saying this morning that there are so -- there is so much weaponry inside of Iraq -- Fallujah, Iraq also, but just specifically Fallujah, that it might be impossible to try and sort of wait it out and have the insurgents run through all their weaponry. And who really knows, the actually numbers are hard to tell. We should mention that it has been the question of the day, and a great question, because I think you are getting a lot of feedback on this question.
JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: yes, we are. And the solutions are a few and far between. None of the ideas seems to be a particularly good one. If you send in the ground forces and have to start clearing out the city block to block and house to house, American casualties go up. If you use airpower, Iraqi civilian casualties go up.
So we asked viewers, what do you do about Fallujah? And they are writing by the hundreds. Tyler in Columbus suggest this, "Don't worry, we'll bring freedom to Iraq, Jack, even if we have to kill them all. One doesn't have to look far to see why Saddam had to use a heavy hand to rule this country. As long as people continue to put religion ahead of sense, it will remain as it always was, insane.
Shirley in Wilmington, Delaware is the wife of a U.S. Marine, "I can assure you that they are trained well and can do the job that is needed. I know the Marines are very frustrated now, sitting in taking fire. They are a first-to-fight force. They are trained to go in heavy and get the job done, not sit around while talking heads try to fix their blunders."
Sam in Atlanta, has this, "Jack, there probably is no good solution short term. But to solve our long-term problem, reinstate the draft, classify every child and grandchild of the administration and Congress 1A, and this action will be over before you can say deferment."
Finally, Rick in Cincinnati, "Give the Iraqis a real reason to hate Americans. Jam their radios and TVs airwaves with nothing but Howard Stern radio and TV shows for 24 hours a day for the next 30 days. They will run out of the cities, begging for peace.
O'BRIEN: That's a strategy we hadn't heard yet actually. It's interesting to hear, though, from the wife of the Marine, who says that they Marines really are, they're prepared, they're trained to do that job, and they're very frustrated sort of waiting on the job. And as we say this, we're looking at pictures, renewed fighting, that seems to be happening from Fallujah.
CAFFERTY: Commanders will tell you, too, that a fighting force like the Marines, they lose their edge if they are kept on a short leash too long. They get ready, they get ready to go. They are briefed. They are given a battleplan, and then they're told, well, we have to wait. You can only hold them so long.
HEMMER: We've been watch this videophone for days. This is the first time I can recall the M1-A1 tank has been caught in the sight of that videophone, moving somewhere throughout Fallujah. And as we watch this videophone swing its way back toward the center of town, let's bring in Ken Pollack, Saban Center, down in D.C.
Ken, good morning to you.
Initially, your reaction as the ongoing fighting continues there today.
KEN POLLACK, SABAN CENTER: I'll be very honest with you. This is not a very good situation. We've got ourselves caught in a really nasty trap in Fallujah, a trap in a sense of a catch-22. On one hand it's very clear that the folks in Fallujah really aren't interested in negotiating their way out of this situation. I don't think anyone expects those to succeed.
and the Marine are there. They are the best at this kind of operation. I think they will do everything they can to minimize civilian casualties, but if they have to clear this city, it could be potentially very bloody.
But on the other hand, if they don't go in, having started down this path, if we simply pull back, they will hand an enormous psychological victory to the insurgents, which will greatly feed their cause.
O'BRIEN: Ken, this is Soledad in New York, obviously. So you sort of highlight the problems. What are the solutions then? I mea, if this, of course, you basically underlined Jack's Question of the Day, between a rock and a hard place. What's the solution?
POLLACK: Sure, well, as you guys are hearing from everybody else, and I'm sure getting from your viewers, there aren't any great solutions for Fallujah, that's the whole problem here. I think there are some things that we ought to be trying, and the biggest and most important one would be reaching out to the Sunni tribal sheikhs. There are two things in Fallujah that makes it a potent hotbed of Iraqi resistance. First, there's a deeply Sunni tribal town, big tribes that were part of Saddam's regime. But they do have control over a lot of people in there. You could reach out to tribal sheikhs. The other group that you've got in town, though, are the Islamists. Fallujah is a very religious town. There are enormous numbers of mosques there. You probably are never going to get at the people who are being inspired by the religious element of that society. But I think that you could get at the tribal element. I think that the tribal sheikhs have shown themselves for centuries to be very pragmatic, and I think you probably could sit down with them and say, look, what is it going to take for you to pull your troops out of this. If you can start splitting the tribal fighters away from the others in there, you might start to break things open. And it's not a great solution, but it is worth a try.
O'BRIEN: Aren't there enough insurgents, though, and maybe the religious element really what we're talking about, and we were hearing reports about sort of a suicide element to what they are planning now, where they are willing to die, they're going to stay in and they're blow themselves up, and take as many others or U.S. or coalition forces with them. Even if you were able to separate the Sunni, if the sheikhs are able to do their job that you suggest, don't you have enough of the insurgents with this religious fervor who really can put up a good fight and destroy the city as they are trying to save it?
POLLACK: Sure, that's why the answer I'm posing is not a good one. But the hope is that if you could start to pull this thing apart, two things will happen, one, at the very least, you will get rid of a whole bunch of people who might fight you otherwise and reduce it to a smaller number of people, therefore, taking them down might cause a lot less damage.
But the other thing that you might do, is if you can start to get defections from the cause of the insurgents, you might create enough chaos that it might become possible to do the operation in a way that you don't kill many people at all. Once things start falling apart, almost anything can happen. That's the ideal moment to launch an attack, because it means the defenders are confused or uncoordinated. It'll make it much harder for them to mount a coherent defense and to kill a lot of people.
O'BRIEN: We've been reporting today that there are a number of sheikhs from across Iraq who are heading into Fallujah to help with the negotiations there, and of course this is in the wake of days and days and days of other negotiations. What do you think they can accomplish that nobody else has been able to accomplish in Fallujah?
POLLACK: Well, they may be able to speak to some of the tribal sheikhs, to some of the tribal fighters in a language that we really can't. They can probably convince them of things that we probably can't. For example, the determination of the U.S. to do it.
But there needs to be a carrot on the other side of this, and I think that's one of the big question marks out there, is to whether we are going to the tribal sheikhs and saying to them, look, there are going to be real benefits for you, immediate benefits to you, if you call off this siege; we will provide you with resources in return for helping us secure the country, we're going to bring you into a new government. You know, part of the problem we've got there, Soledad, is that we have completely alienated this segment of the Iraqi population, we've alienated the Sunni tribals. They think that reconstruction is going to destroy their community and put them in a situation where they are oppressed, just as they oppressed the Shia of Iraq for the last 30 or so years.
O'BRIEN: All right, Ken, we're going to ask you to stick around so we can continue to talk to you as we look at these live pictures just out of Fallujah. Obviously, some heavy fighting going on there. So please stick around while we head into our 9:00 hour.
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Aired April 29, 2003 - 08:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning. Welcome back, everybody. Just about half past the hour on this AMERICAN MORNING. We've been talking about this with Jack all morning, and it's actually generating lots of e-mails, the siege in Fallujah, putting a spotlight on the U.S. military strategy in Iraq, there specifically, and really across Iraq. Of course there are some attempts to stop the insurgency without further enraging the Iraqis as a whole.
In just a few moments, we're going to talk with retired General David Grange, and of course he, too, has his own ideas about this particular cease-fire.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Also this half hour, going back to Turkey's Mt. Ararat one more time, looking for Noah's Ark. We'll talk to the leader of an expedition planned for this summer. Could this be the one trip that solves the mystery once and for all. They think they're on to something. We'll talk to them here in a moment.
O'BRIEN: Really? That would be nice. Can you imagine? Finding Noah's Ark? How great would that be?
All right, let's get to our top stories this morning. There will be no official record when President Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney go before the 9/11 commission. That is one of the details being released about tomorrow's closed-door session. The president will not be under oath. White House Press Secretary Scott McClellan says it's due to the classified nature of the information discussed. There will be no official transcript of the private meeting.
United Nations offices are closed in Syria today following a car bombing in Damascus. Four people were killed yesterday after a group of terrorists set off a bomb in the capital city's diplomatic quarters. U.S. embassy is also closed. Americans have been urged to stay home.
Secretary of State Colin Powell at an international conference on anti-Semitism in Berlin, Germany. Secretary Powell is accompanied by Holocaust survivor and Nobel Peace Prize winner Ili Reisel (ph). Powell is expected to discuss the war in Iraq with European officials during their two-day meet.
An amazing story of survival out of Wyoming. An 18-month-old girl is found alive after 30 hours, after a terrible car accident. The car crash killed her father. Ray Lynn Miller is suffering dehydration and possibly broken bones as well. She was discovered yesterday by a police officer who was jogging on the road where the accident happened.
And Oscar-winning actress Marcia Gay Harden is doing double duty now, and then some. Really, she already has a daughter, so triple duty now. She gave birth to twins, a little girl and a boy. Harden also has a 5-year-old daughter at home. Her publicists has said everybody is doing well, except nobody is sleeping. Harden won a supporting Oscar for her 2000 roll in the film Pollack, and she was also nominated for last year's "Mystic River." You go, girl. I'm watching you every step of the way.
HEMMER: Want some advice?
O'BRIEN: You think it's too soon to call her up? Hey, Marcia, how is it going?
Good for her. That's nice news.
(WEATHER UPDATE)
HEMMER: It seems that stop and start fighting again between U.S. Marines and Iraqi insurgents in Fallujah starting yet again today. Reports from Fallujah this morning say gunfire and a series of explosions were heard for more than an hour. It follows yesterday's bombardment of insurgent targets in that town. A large weapons cache and several homes were destroyed. All this as Marines and Iraqi security forces are scheduled to begin joint patrols of Fallujah tomorrow. Retired U.S. Army Brigadier General, CNN military analyst David Grange back with us today.
Good morning, general.
BRIG. GEN. DAVID GRANGE, (RET.) CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Good morning.
HEMMER: I want you to listen to a commander in Fallujah, the U.S. Marines, an interview he gave earlier today, and we'll talk about what it means. Listen here.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CAPT. DOUGLAS ZEMBEC, U.S. MARINES: We've been playing patty cake with these insurgents. We have not begun to do offensive operations. And the world will see that when we do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HEMMER: The phrase he uses is "patty cake." How do we interpret that?
GRANGE: Well, limited operations. I don't think there's a massive ground assault ongoing. I think it's an option that the coalition force has, but doesn't want to use, unless they really are forced to do so. And so these are limited operations, where they have known insurgent strongholds, and they'll take them down. The idea is not to alienate more Iraqis if possible. Try to resolve it peacefully if they can, but where there are insurgents that are resistant, then they'll take them out. These are not full-scale operations.
HEMMER: We heard from an embedded reporter yesterday, saying the Marines could do this job in 24 hours. Do you believe that to be the case?
GRANGE: I don't think you could do a city in 24 hours this size when -- unless you secure it, if you're talking about securing certain objectives. But then there's always the consolidation phase, and the cleanup phase, and that always takes a long time. So, no, I don't believe that.
HEMMER: There's some fliers dropped yesterday over Fallujah, specifically over this neighborhood. I think it's called Joelan (ph). That's where most of the insurgents are now holed up. On the screen we can show our viewers, "Surrender, you are surrounded. If you are a terrorist, beware, because your last day was yesterday. In order to spare your life, end your actions and surrender to coalition forces now. We are coming to arrest you."
Do the fliers work, or is this intimidation?
GRANGE: Well, to some extent. Sometimes when fliers are written, to influence an action through psychological warfare, they have a reverse affect, because the culture you are trying to reach interprets it different than you think they are. But in this case, I think other people will pick up these fliers besides these insurgents and they'll say, hey, I've got to get out of the way, which is a good thing. Insurgents will pick it up and say, they mean business, it's a hopeless situation. On the moral side of this fight, maybe I should get out of here or turn in my stuff.
HEMMER: Going back to the Afghan war, the AC-130 gunship really became popular and well known to the American public as a result of that war. Used again last night. You say you have flown these aircraft before. Tell us about them.
GRANGE: Well, I haven't flown them, but i've used them. They are excellent airplanes, when they can fly. Obviously, they are vulnerable to certain surface-to-air missiles, weaponry. One was knocked down in the first Iraqi war over Kuwait City. But they bring in fire very close to the ground troops, very accurate. They can distinguish between certain vehicles on the road. They can pick up people. They can say, OK, I want to hit the fifth building in a row of five on the north side, and they'll hit that particular building or that side of the building. Very accurate. Very effective, and the ground troops love them.
HEMMER: Wow, can hit a target from 8,000 feet, you say.
GRANGE: That's right.
HEMMER: Thank you, general, David Grange there in Illinois -- Soledad.
O'BRIEN: Well, today is Saddam Hussein's 67th birthday. Yesterday, members of the International Red Cross Committee met with the former Iraqi president. On CNN, coalition spokesman Dan Senor was asked whether Saddam was cooperating with his interrogators.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAN SENOR, COALITION SPOKESMAN: He is not being cooperative. Early on, we were being told that there was intelligence being gathered by the documents that were with him that shed some insight into the nature of the insurgency, how it was being financed and some other related matters. But that was strictly a function of the documents he had with him and some related information. He, himself, has not been terribly cooperative.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O'BRIEN: Saddam Hussein has been held at an undisclosed location since he was captured on December 13th.
HEMMER: I want to get back to Fallujah in a moment here, waiting for these pictures. They are live pictures now, coming into us from Fallujah. We're not quite sure what's happening at this hour. But what we do know, in the past hour, some fighting, some degree of fighting, has resumed there. This coming the morning after the night last night, if you were with us yesterday afternoon, right around 2:30 Eastern Time when we saw those pictures, Karl Penhaul and other embedded with the Marines, that nightscope video that showed the AC- 130 gunships targeting two specific buildings, and ultimately, we know now, they were ammunition cache -- stashes there in the town of Fallujah.
O'BRIEN: The description is that the bombing was so overwhelming that it was lighting up the sky, so it looked like daylight to the folks who were able to take a look at this. And of course we've been talking about the various options in Fallujah, none them truly very encouraging. One is the military option to go in and essentially level it, give the insurgents and everybody else an opportunity to get out, and then go in and start doing the door-to-door combat as they talk about.
And of course, the negotiation option, which thus far does not seem to be reaping any huge benefits. They talk about a cease-fire, which seems to be, as we heard a little bit earlier from Tony Perry, who's embedded with the Marines, he said, among the people he's with, it's essentially a joke. They are taking fire every day. They don't see a cease-fire really as an actual cease-fire.
HEMMER: This video film is courtesy of the pool with the U.S. Marines there, embedded deep into that town of Fallujah, with the helicopters in the air. We will keep a close eye on this, not exactly sure what's happening there, but as soon as we can sort it out, we'll pass it along to you. That's the scene at this hour in Fallujah.
In a moment here, enemy combatants held without a set trial. What rights do they have? That question is before the Supreme Court. We'll that next hour here.
O'BRIEN: Also, it's supposed to be the happiest time in a woman's life, bringing your new baby home, but some moms find it much more difficult than others. Dr. Sanjay Gupta is going to talk about postpartum depression. It's all part of our newborn series, just ahead.
Also heading up to Mt. Ararat in search of Noah's Ark. Some explorers hope to get an answer to the question of whether or not it is there. Back in a moment, after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O'BRIEN: In the third part of our series on newborns, we take a look at the dark side of new motherhood, postpartum depression. Dr. Sanjay Gupta joins us to explain just what it is and how it differs from the baby blues. Everybody I know sort of has the baby blues, which is you're just an emotional, hormonal wreck after you have a child, but it's very different. Postpartum depression is completely different?
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: It really is completely different, and you're absolutely right, you know, going through pregnancy is a considerable change in hormones for a woman. About 80 percent of women get some baby blues after the birth of their baby. But about one in five to one in 10 will actually have a major depressive episode before their baby is a year old. So that first year very crucial. Many moms to are going to be affected by this, and it should not be ignored.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GUPTA (voice-over): Your bundle of joy has finally arrived, and you've just joined the new moms club. Well, get ready. You may be joining yet another, the baby blues club.
HEIDI MURKOFF, AUTHOR, "WHAT TO EXPECT WHEN YOU'RE EXPECTING": With baby blues, you're weepy, you're sad, you are hormonal, you are feeling a little overwhelmed, and who can blame you. But you know, with a little TLC and a little extra rest, most blue moms start to feel relative in the pink within a couple of weeks or so.
GUPTA: But in 10 percent to 15 percent of new moms, the blues don't go away. They didn't for this mom.
SANDRA, POSTPARTUM MOM: A lot of anxiety, panic attacks, just feeling like I couldn't leave home, feeling like I was a little bit worthless, because here I had this beautiful, new baby, had a wonderful 3-year-old, and things, in my eyes, were just terrible.
GUPTA: Eventually, Sandra was diagnosed with postpartum depression, which is like any other major depression, except it usually starts sometime after the baby is born in the postpartum period.
SANDRA: I've never been depressed before in my life. I didn't know what I was experiencing was depression, really.
DR. DIANA DELL, DUKE UNIVERSITY: Easily half of women with postpartum depression have never been depressed before.
GUPTA: Symptoms of which can include hopelessness, anxiety, lack of interest in your baby, feelings of guilt of not being a good mother, and another important one, lack of sleep.
SANDRA: Not being able to sleep compounds some of that feelings that you are getting of hopelessness. How am I going to get up and do this, because you are physically tired and you are mentally exhausted.
GUPTA: Sandra sought professional help.
DR. ZACHARY STOWE, EMORY UNIVERSITY: I think that just letting them know that it can happen is the first step. And then if it does happen, letting them know that, in my opinion, it is one of the easiest things to treat that I have encountered in psychiatry.
GUPTA: Sandra went to therapy, got the advice and support from other moms and took antidepression medication, which was safe, even though she was breast feeding.
SANDRA: You are much better off if you are -- if you see somebody, get some help, whether it's medication or not medication, because then that allows you to be better for your family, get your depression under control.
GUPTA: Good advice for any new mom.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GUPTA: Easy to treat, very common, if recognized early. Another study out, interesting, that about one-third of women, if they are going to have depression, it actually starts at the end of their pregnancy, as opposed to after the baby is born, really important to recognize this early.
O'BRIEN: All right, Sanjay, thanks a lot, appreciate it -- Bill.
GUPTA: Thank you.
HEMMER: Soledad, I want to go back to that live picture by way of videophone. The pool reporters there set up with the U.S. Marines. Karl Penhaul is the pool reporter. He's already begun his report from Fallujah. Let's drop in and listen now.
A bit difficult to hear that report. Tell you what we're learning right now. Just in the past hour, when the fighting erupted yet again, the indication we have is that three different homes or three different buildings are now being targeted, said to house a number of insurgents inside of Fallujah. All this coming the day after the blast of last night and that nightscope video we've been watching now throughout the morning, when at least two buildings were targeted by those giant AC-130 gunships. The Marines say that ammunition was being stored inside those buildings. We do not have confirmation on what is inside the targets today, but the early indications tell us at least insurgents have been taking refuge in there. That tenuous cease-fire, that on again/off again cease-fire has been debated whether it's a legitimate cease-fire or not. Also getting indications today that sheikhs from around Iraq are converging on Fallujah, perhaps going into the city tomorrow to serve as mediators between the U.S. Marines and the Iraqi insurgents, to possibly find some sort of political solution and some sort of way out of this.
As the smoke drifts into the sky, we've seen a number of helicopters, including ones like these, in the skies above Fallujah. Again, it remains a very tenuous and precarious moment for both sides at this point.
Laktar Brahimi (ph) yesterday with the U.N. Security Council here in New York, indicating that some sort of political solution has to be achieved here, expressing hope that something could come out of this, and warning that a very bloody confrontation could result unless an agreement is arrived at and reached, and Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld yesterday at the Pentagon, saying I think you've got some very tough people inside of that city.
Again, we do not know exactly what's happening in Fallujah, just the latest signal we're watching by way of videophone. U.S. Marines, 2,000 strong, surrounding that city. We are told upwards of 7,000 Marines may be in the immediate area if called upon to join in the assault on Fallujah.
O'BRIEN: They have said, of course, that what they are doing right now is essentially pattycake. There was an interview they ran a little bit earlier from one of the Marines, who said, you know, this is not an offensive by any such of the imagination, and when it actually does happen, you will see it.
Which, again, brings you back to the debate, which is the best strategy to go forward with? Because there does seem to be no question about whether, if the Marines are given the opportunity to go in and take the city, that they will be able to accomplish that. But, of course, it's the issue of collateral damage and the issue of lives lost on the part of the U.S. soldiers there as well. You know, does it make it worth it?
Then you have the negotiations. You talked about the sheikhs who are arriving to continue the negotiations. You have the diplomats who are already there negotiating.
It was interesting, earlier, we were talking to Senator Biden, who says he's hopeful for diplomatic solutions, when actually there seems to be no real indication, I think, from many perspectives why to be hopeful, because of course it doesn't seem like any of the people inside Fallujah are turning over the insurgents who are responsible for those four contractors who were killed, it doesn't seem as if anybody is turning in any weapons that are actually worthwhile weapons. So it doesn't, you know, it's the classic of between a rock and a hard place, and as you mentioned, we are seeing renewed fighting out of Fallujah this morning, hard to tell what's happening there, but we're get more information on it. HEMMER: We've had two embedded reporters with us throughout this ordeal, Tony Perry of "The L.A. Times," "Christian Science Monitor" reporter Scott Peterson. And speaking with them yesterday and again today, they have given us indication that the Marines could take this town in 24 hours, perhaps overly optimistic, especially when you consider urban warfare.
There's also the suggestion that if you've sealed off the town, perhaps you've eliminated the amount of ammunition that go in and out of Fallujah. Some suggestions say because the Marines have been engaged in firefights for several days, that the ammunition on behalf of the insurgents is running very low. Whether that's the case or not, we cannot say for certain.
But we do have suggestions from a number of military analysts who have looked at this from the outside and they are convinced that a number of Iraqi fighters inside Fallujah will fight to the death, and that is their desire, to defend themselves in Fallujah.
O'BRIEN: At the same time, Tony Perry was saying this morning that there are so -- there is so much weaponry inside of Iraq -- Fallujah, Iraq also, but just specifically Fallujah, that it might be impossible to try and sort of wait it out and have the insurgents run through all their weaponry. And who really knows, the actually numbers are hard to tell. We should mention that it has been the question of the day, and a great question, because I think you are getting a lot of feedback on this question.
JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: yes, we are. And the solutions are a few and far between. None of the ideas seems to be a particularly good one. If you send in the ground forces and have to start clearing out the city block to block and house to house, American casualties go up. If you use airpower, Iraqi civilian casualties go up.
So we asked viewers, what do you do about Fallujah? And they are writing by the hundreds. Tyler in Columbus suggest this, "Don't worry, we'll bring freedom to Iraq, Jack, even if we have to kill them all. One doesn't have to look far to see why Saddam had to use a heavy hand to rule this country. As long as people continue to put religion ahead of sense, it will remain as it always was, insane.
Shirley in Wilmington, Delaware is the wife of a U.S. Marine, "I can assure you that they are trained well and can do the job that is needed. I know the Marines are very frustrated now, sitting in taking fire. They are a first-to-fight force. They are trained to go in heavy and get the job done, not sit around while talking heads try to fix their blunders."
Sam in Atlanta, has this, "Jack, there probably is no good solution short term. But to solve our long-term problem, reinstate the draft, classify every child and grandchild of the administration and Congress 1A, and this action will be over before you can say deferment."
Finally, Rick in Cincinnati, "Give the Iraqis a real reason to hate Americans. Jam their radios and TVs airwaves with nothing but Howard Stern radio and TV shows for 24 hours a day for the next 30 days. They will run out of the cities, begging for peace.
O'BRIEN: That's a strategy we hadn't heard yet actually. It's interesting to hear, though, from the wife of the Marine, who says that they Marines really are, they're prepared, they're trained to do that job, and they're very frustrated sort of waiting on the job. And as we say this, we're looking at pictures, renewed fighting, that seems to be happening from Fallujah.
CAFFERTY: Commanders will tell you, too, that a fighting force like the Marines, they lose their edge if they are kept on a short leash too long. They get ready, they get ready to go. They are briefed. They are given a battleplan, and then they're told, well, we have to wait. You can only hold them so long.
HEMMER: We've been watch this videophone for days. This is the first time I can recall the M1-A1 tank has been caught in the sight of that videophone, moving somewhere throughout Fallujah. And as we watch this videophone swing its way back toward the center of town, let's bring in Ken Pollack, Saban Center, down in D.C.
Ken, good morning to you.
Initially, your reaction as the ongoing fighting continues there today.
KEN POLLACK, SABAN CENTER: I'll be very honest with you. This is not a very good situation. We've got ourselves caught in a really nasty trap in Fallujah, a trap in a sense of a catch-22. On one hand it's very clear that the folks in Fallujah really aren't interested in negotiating their way out of this situation. I don't think anyone expects those to succeed.
and the Marine are there. They are the best at this kind of operation. I think they will do everything they can to minimize civilian casualties, but if they have to clear this city, it could be potentially very bloody.
But on the other hand, if they don't go in, having started down this path, if we simply pull back, they will hand an enormous psychological victory to the insurgents, which will greatly feed their cause.
O'BRIEN: Ken, this is Soledad in New York, obviously. So you sort of highlight the problems. What are the solutions then? I mea, if this, of course, you basically underlined Jack's Question of the Day, between a rock and a hard place. What's the solution?
POLLACK: Sure, well, as you guys are hearing from everybody else, and I'm sure getting from your viewers, there aren't any great solutions for Fallujah, that's the whole problem here. I think there are some things that we ought to be trying, and the biggest and most important one would be reaching out to the Sunni tribal sheikhs. There are two things in Fallujah that makes it a potent hotbed of Iraqi resistance. First, there's a deeply Sunni tribal town, big tribes that were part of Saddam's regime. But they do have control over a lot of people in there. You could reach out to tribal sheikhs. The other group that you've got in town, though, are the Islamists. Fallujah is a very religious town. There are enormous numbers of mosques there. You probably are never going to get at the people who are being inspired by the religious element of that society. But I think that you could get at the tribal element. I think that the tribal sheikhs have shown themselves for centuries to be very pragmatic, and I think you probably could sit down with them and say, look, what is it going to take for you to pull your troops out of this. If you can start splitting the tribal fighters away from the others in there, you might start to break things open. And it's not a great solution, but it is worth a try.
O'BRIEN: Aren't there enough insurgents, though, and maybe the religious element really what we're talking about, and we were hearing reports about sort of a suicide element to what they are planning now, where they are willing to die, they're going to stay in and they're blow themselves up, and take as many others or U.S. or coalition forces with them. Even if you were able to separate the Sunni, if the sheikhs are able to do their job that you suggest, don't you have enough of the insurgents with this religious fervor who really can put up a good fight and destroy the city as they are trying to save it?
POLLACK: Sure, that's why the answer I'm posing is not a good one. But the hope is that if you could start to pull this thing apart, two things will happen, one, at the very least, you will get rid of a whole bunch of people who might fight you otherwise and reduce it to a smaller number of people, therefore, taking them down might cause a lot less damage.
But the other thing that you might do, is if you can start to get defections from the cause of the insurgents, you might create enough chaos that it might become possible to do the operation in a way that you don't kill many people at all. Once things start falling apart, almost anything can happen. That's the ideal moment to launch an attack, because it means the defenders are confused or uncoordinated. It'll make it much harder for them to mount a coherent defense and to kill a lot of people.
O'BRIEN: We've been reporting today that there are a number of sheikhs from across Iraq who are heading into Fallujah to help with the negotiations there, and of course this is in the wake of days and days and days of other negotiations. What do you think they can accomplish that nobody else has been able to accomplish in Fallujah?
POLLACK: Well, they may be able to speak to some of the tribal sheikhs, to some of the tribal fighters in a language that we really can't. They can probably convince them of things that we probably can't. For example, the determination of the U.S. to do it.
But there needs to be a carrot on the other side of this, and I think that's one of the big question marks out there, is to whether we are going to the tribal sheikhs and saying to them, look, there are going to be real benefits for you, immediate benefits to you, if you call off this siege; we will provide you with resources in return for helping us secure the country, we're going to bring you into a new government. You know, part of the problem we've got there, Soledad, is that we have completely alienated this segment of the Iraqi population, we've alienated the Sunni tribals. They think that reconstruction is going to destroy their community and put them in a situation where they are oppressed, just as they oppressed the Shia of Iraq for the last 30 or so years.
O'BRIEN: All right, Ken, we're going to ask you to stick around so we can continue to talk to you as we look at these live pictures just out of Fallujah. Obviously, some heavy fighting going on there. So please stick around while we head into our 9:00 hour.
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