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CNN Live At Daybreak
Fight for Iraq
Aired April 30, 2003 - 05:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: New this morning, a U.S. military checkpoint comes under attack in Najaf and American soldiers fire back and pierce front lines in the fight for Iraq.
It is Thursday, April 29, and this is DAYBREAK.
Good morning to you, welcome to the second half-hour of DAYBREAK. From CNN's Global Headquarters in Atlanta, I'm Carol Costello.
Let me bring you up to date right now.
At the White House this morning, President Bush and Vice President Cheney will answer questions from the commission investigating the 9/11 terrorist attack. No recording of that meeting will be made.
Near Najaf, Iraq, a U.S. military checkpoint is attacked today by insurgents using rocket-propelled grenades, mortars and small arms fire. No casualties reported.
Astronaut Mike Foale and Cosmonaut Alexander Kaleri return to Earth today. They have been on the International Space Station for the last six months. Touchdown is set for shortly after 8:00 p.m. Eastern.
And at 9:30 Eastern this morning, the World War II Memorial on the National Mall in Washington opens to the public for the first time. And to the 16 million who served in uniform, thanks.
Now to Chad for a look at the forecast.
CHAD MYERS, CNN METEOROLOGIST: That was an unbelievable number, Carol. They are said they opened it early because 1,100, 1,100 World War II veterans are dying every day. So they are getting all the way up -- they wanted to get it open so that some of them can actually see it before that happens.
Good morning, everybody.
(WEATHER REPORT)
COSTELLO: On the phone right now, we have "Los Angeles Times" reporter Tony Perry. He is in Fallujah, and he may have some new information for us.
Tony, what can you tell us? TONY PERRY, "LOS ANGELES TIMES" REPORTER: A tentative deal has apparently been struck to end the Marine siege of this city. An agreement between the U.S. and various Iraqi officials would turn over security operations in Fallujah to the Iraqi army.
The breakthrough apparently came when four former Iraqi generals stepped forward and offered to take leadership roles in getting the army back in shape, moving it into Fallujah and taking care of the security there, including arresting and dearming the terrorists who have been fighting battles for some three weeks with the Marines.
In a meeting just -- that concluded just a few minutes ago between the Iraqi generals and the Marine generals, details started to be worked out and for a slow transition of a week or two that the Marines would stay in place. Then they would move out of the city as the new Iraqi army takes control of the city.
Major General James Mattis, who is the commander of the 1st Marine Division, came out of the meeting. He was talking very amiably to a man, a three-star general in the Iraqi army. And he said to him, we will make it work, you and I. We will work together. We will work this through. We, the Marines, didn't come here to fight. We came here to help. That's Major General James Mattis talking to his opposite member, a former Iraqi general, who has stepped forward and said he will help, along with some other generals, get the Iraqi army involved in Fallujah.
COSTELLO: Tony, I'm curious about these four...
PERRY: Yes.
COSTELLO: ... Iraqi generals that stepped forward. Are they from -- are they Ba'athists? Were they from Saddam Hussein's army?
PERRY: They were from Saddam Hussein's army. They are professional soldiers. They even fought against the Americans a year ago. Some of them were Ba'athist. You had to be a Ba'athist to survive. But they are thought to be honorable men.
The Marines will be watching their conduct very closely. The Marines fought against these men a year ago. They seem to think that they are professionals who truly care about their country and want to step forward. And it seemed the potential for destruction if the Marines have to go in and take care of the insurgents.
What the Marines really want, of course, is to avoid a street-to- street, house-to-house urban battle in the core of Fallujah, a battle that would lead to Marine casualties and it would certainly lead to civilian casualties. That is what the Marines want to avoid, that's why they have always wanted to put, as they say, an Iraqi face on this security operation.
The Iraqi police and their sort of national guard has been heretofore fairly disappointing to the Marines. The Marines have been exasperated that no Iraqis have stepped forward for leadership. Now apparently that has occurred with these four former generals. They have stepped forward and it looks like we have a way out of the siege without having the Marines having to go downtown and fight a door-to- door urban battle.
COSTELLO: You know, Tony, we also hear, and this is great news about the Iraqi generals, but we often hear that the Iraqi security force isn't adequately trained to take over security in Fallujah. In fact, that's why that plan to patrol the streets with U.S. Marines has been put off for a couple of days. Do these generals have enough Iraqis to help them secure Fallujah?
PERRY: You know Iraq had, for many years, one of the largest, best trained, best equipped armies in the world. It couldn't stand up to the United States Army in the first Gulf War or a year ago in the mission to topple Saddam Hussein, but they have a long military tradition. They have men who are professionals, who ran their army and did it rather well and they have now stepped forward.
Now the Iraqi police and the, what they call the ICDC (ph), the Iraqi Civil Conservation Core, they really had no history, so they were really being constituted from the ground up. And as you suggest, they are a very rickety, immature, in terms of training and leadership, group. They really, I don't think, were up to the security operation. The army, however, if it can be reconstituted with its major officers and its non-commissioned officers with its traditions, I think it's got a shot.
An interesting sideline is that the U.S. officials, the Marine officials and the civilian officials, offered money and equipment to these generals to get their army going. They turned it down. There is a certain pride. They want to get the Iraqi army to take care of an Iraqi problem, which is an insurgency, which is a criminal element in this town of Fallujah, which has really gripped this city for some period of time.
COSTELLO: Well I guess the next question would be...
PERRY: So what we have is a tentative agreement.
COSTELLO: The next question would be, Tony, is how long would it take those generals to reconstitute the Iraqi army, getting the people they want to provide security to Fallujah?
PERRY: We'll have to see. I think we're talking a matter of weeks, we're not talking a matter of months. There is an Iraqi army that is being reconstituted. Remember the Americans disbanded the army. There was a lot of controversy that they shouldn't have done that. Well they did it anyway. So there is an army in place.
What this would do is bring the generals who ran the army previously back for some leadership. They doubtless would bring a lot of other people. They'd bring some credibility to the army. So it's got a potential. It would be a matter of weeks. I think the Marines, there are 7,000 of them here, will stay in place for a matter of weeks, then start to move out, if this is successful.
COSTELLO: Tony. PERRY: Now there are a couple of caveats.
COSTELLO: Tony, let me...
PERRY: One,...
COSTELLO: Go ahead -- Tony.
PERRY: ... the insurgents have to stop fighting.
DAVID CLINCH, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL EDITOR: Tony, this is David Clinch, just joining Carol here, with the question related to what you were saying there. Are the -- are the Marines asking these generals to just contain the situation and maintain security in Fallujah or are they asking them to take on the insurgents? There have been a lot of questions about whether these insurgents are foreign fighters or perhaps even former Saddam loyalists themselves. Is this the Marines asking them to maintain security only or to attack and to destroy this insurgent group?
PERRY: What they are asking them for is to create stability and security and to take the weapons out of the hands of the Fallujah and out of the hands of the insurgents. How they do that, I think the Iraqi army would have some flexibility. They may have to mount some sort of offensive themselves, or they, being from the culture and from the society, may have ways of getting to the insurgents other than a head-long assault.
One thing they are going to have to do, and the Marines were very specific about this, was the Iraqis, the Iraqi generals will have to put pressure on the insurgents to stop these daily, nightly, hourly attacks that the insurgents have been launching against the Marines.
CLINCH: Understood. I mean clearly what we have been seeing over the last 24, 48 hours is the Marines and the U.S. military, in general, not reacting only to small attacks with a small response but with very, very large response, particularly during the day yesterday. Is there any indication from the Marines and the U.S. military that they will tone down the level of their activity?
PERRY: Well they actually have reacted very surgically, I think. They have not used massive retaliation, but they are going to protect themselves. And that means if people are attacking, they are going to be counterattacked and there is going to be -- there is going to be fire brought to bear on those people. The Marines are not going to take casualties of an effort -- in an effort to calm things down. They are going to protect themselves and they are going to protect their lines and they are going to assault people who are assaulting them. There is going to be no change in that.
But what the Marines want are these Iraqis, who are thought to have contact with the insurgents, they want them to put pressure on the insurgents to come to heel, to stop the attacks and lay down their weapons and to give this city a chance.
COSTELLO: And, Tony, the next question... PERRY: The Marines want what the U.S. wants...
COSTELLO: Tony, another question about the transition from you know the U.S. Marines that are there now to these Iraqi generals, will there be a period of time when the Iraqis and the U.S. Marines will be fighting the insurgents side by side and who would be in charge?
PERRY: I don't think that's --I don't think that that's what they have in mind. I think they have in mind a fairly quick transition in which Iraqi troops move in into their own city and handle things in their own manner with some sort of overseer fashion. But we're not talking of a joint military force with Iraqi and the Marine humvees going side by side, we're talking about the Marines pulling out gradually, a smooth turnover.
General Mattis, I was there when the head general turned to one of his subordinates and said I want a smooth turnover. Talking about a turnover of responsibility to the Iraqi army who will then deal with things in the manner they feel is appropriate.
COSTELLO: Should we look upon this as a sort of experiment for coalition forces? Might this come into play in other parts of Iraq, as well, if this works?
PERRY: Well precisely. That's what they are hoping. They have always said, as Fallujah goes, much of Iraq will go. And if it can work here, if the Iraqi army will step forward with leadership and commitment and make it work here, turn this chaotic city into a city of stability, who knows, it can work other places.
CLINCH: (INAUDIBLE) this is -- this...
PERRY: Because what the U.S. wants is a stable situation.
CLINCH: Just to be clear, Tony, the Iraqi army you are referring to, these generals and the forces they want to use, that is distinct from the security forces that have been training with the U.S. military there to go on these joint patrols?
PERRY: Exactly.
CLINCH: This is a -- this is a new force?
PERRY: Yes, those security forces are their police and national guard. The Iraqi army, there is an Iraqi army. It has been reconstituted and is being built, built back up into something that it was previously. So there is an Iraqi army. What it has lacked is leadership. What it has lacked is some of the leadership that was there before the army was disbanded a year ago.
Now some of those leaders are stepping back and stepping to the fore to help Fallujah. Because what the U.S. wants is some sort of stability so that hundreds of millions of dollars of projects, improvements, water, power, electricity, schools, roads, all that kind of thing can proceed in Fallujah. That's all been on hold because of -- because of the murders of the four Americans and the mutilation of their bodies.
And what the Marines and the Coalition Provisional Authority wants is an end to that sort of violence so that contractors, Americans, Westerners, can go back to Fallujah and with the Fallujah residents themselves start building their city back up.
COSTELLO: You know -- you know what the continuing worry is, though, Tony, because of -- we have heard word that Iraqi forces have turned and run when the times got tough and some of them aren't very willing to fight fellow Iraqis. These four generals, if they are perceived as working with the United States, you know do we know how that will affect the psyche of this Iraqi army?
PERRY: Sure, I mean there are all sorts of rocks in the road on this thing. Can they bring leadership to bear? Will Iraqis bring force to bear on other Iraqis? There is a history that they have done that in the past, rather unhappily so. Sure, there's all sorts of things. Will the terrorists decide to wipe out these four generals? Sure, lots of things can happen. That's why the word tentative I think needs to be underlined in red ink.
This is a tentative agreement, lots of moving parts, lots of details, but it's a move forward. And it's something that hadn't really been thought of or even talked of until the last couple of days. I mean the Americans have been bemoaning really the lack of leadership among the Iraqis. Now some Iraqi leaders have stepped forward.
COSTELLO: I know, and we keep asking you such negative questions or seemingly negative questions, but this is a big step forward for coalition forces and the U.S. Marines, of course, who are continuing to surround Fallujah.
PERRY: It's an enormous step with enormous risks. So, of course, was an all-out assault downtown with the risk to American casualties and civilian casualties. Risks all the way around. This, the Marine and civilian officials believe, are risks worth taking, that the Iraqi army can get its act together and can clean up one of their own cities.
CLINCH: Tony, this is just great reporting, and we thank you very much for giving this to us. Just a question here, what are the first concrete signs that we can anticipate showing the Iraqi army taking control in Fallujah? What kind of first steps are we looking at?
PERRY: I think that we -- I think within days they will be moving their troops in. I think there will be public announcements both in Iraq on the Iraqi media and the Western media saying leaders have emerged. It is a new day. It isn't just -- it's a new paradigm, if you will, that it isn't just the insurgents versus the Marines, there are now Iraqi leaders who have stepped forward.
There are also there are separate meetings going on as we speak with the sheikhs, the tribal leaders to get them involved more. And there have been a series of meetings with the civilian, the government people, the mayor, other people like that to get them involved in this idea, too.
We'll see Iraqi troops come in. We'll see Americans start to pull back. If we are lucky, we will not see the nightly attacks by the insurgents on the Marines. That will be one of the acid tests to see if the Iraqi generals have the ability, have the clout, have the connections with the insurgents to stop them from attacking a Marine.
COSTELLO: Can you tell us anything more about these generals, who they are, how they served in Saddam Hussein's old army?
PERRY: I'm told that they were two and three-star generals and commanded tens of thousands of men, are considered professionals. I talked to a Marine colonel who fought against one of the men, thought he fought honorably and he was a professional and he had some regard for him. And the soldiers who fight against each other, if they fight within certain bounds, no weapons of mass destruction, no using women and children as shields, have a certain respect for each other. And I don't think the Marines would have allowed generals that they know -- they have a lot of background on these people. They would not have allowed generals that they know to be dishonorable or to be of questionable integrity to have stepped forward.
COSTELLO: You know the...
PERRY: This is part of an agreement among professionals.
COSTELLO: ... strange part is did these generals, when you know it was deemed active combat in Iraq, did these generals lead the charge against Americans?
PERRY: Could very well -- could very well have, in the same sense that some of the German generals after World War II took positions in the -- under the Marshall Plan to help Europe get back on its feet. At some point you have to say combat is over and we have to live together, and I think possibly that's what we are seeing here.
COSTELLO: Tony Perry from the "Los...
PERRY: And there has been a move...
COSTELLO: Go ahead.
PERRY: There has been a move to get some of the Ba'ath Party people, who had been sort of purged, if you will, get them back involved, not just in Fallujah, where the mayor is a former Ba'ath Party member, but get them involved all throughout the country, because they have (UNINTELLIGIBLE) and they have competencies,...
COSTELLO: And that was something...
PERRY: ... and none of them are crooks (ph).
COSTELLO: And that was something, Tony, that American generals really wanted on the ground in Iraq.
PERRY: Indeed, and I think that's finally coming to bear. People with competency and leadership, even if they were part of the Saddam Hussein regime by being a part of the Ba'ath Party apparatus. They probably did that to survive. And those that have integrity and competency, they are being allowed back in.
CLINCH: Well, Tony, this is fascinating stuff, again. But I'm wondering now how you know, obviously this is still very tentative, and it remains to be seen how it will work in Fallujah or elsewhere.
PERRY: Sure.
CLINCH: But I'm wondering how we could see this fitting into the hand over process that is going on separately. I mean there is still to be a new government announced and formed, there is still to be a U.N. role to be determined and of course the U.S. military role after June 30. How is -- how are the U.S. military imagining these kinds of deals and obviously part of the risk that you are talking about is that these generals gain power, significant power, within isolated areas within Iraq. How does that fit in to the hand over process, the bigger picture?
PERRY: With some -- with some difficulty. Lots of details to be worked out, a lot of moving parts, you're right. What about these Iraqi generals, will they retain their position even after Iraq has a new government that, in theory, would want to name its own generals? We'll have to see. This is the beginning of the end. It is probably not the end itself to the problem of Fallujah.
COSTELLO: I'm just sort of interested in the process. Has this been going a long time? Did these generals approach coalition forces? I mean how did it all come about?
PERRY: Well, from what I understand, these people, the generals, they were known. They have been courted, if you will, but only in the last few days have they stepped forward. And the Marines believe it is because they saw what the Marines can do. They saw the battles. They saw the death toll among insurgents. They knew what would happen to Fallujah if the Marines had to go downtown to take out the insurgents and that that really prodded them into stepping forward and taking a leadership and a risky leadership role, too.
COSTELLO: And just to bring our viewers up to date, again, a tentative deal has been made with four generals from the former -- from the former army of Saddam Hussein. Eventually they will lead Iraqi forces to take control of the city of Fallujah, but that will not happen for a few months.
On the phone right now, from the "L.A. Times," Tony Perry, who has been filling us in with some fascinating information.
CLINCH: Yes. Well, Carol, just, I mean again, with Tony on the phone from Fallujah, one of the points that he was making early, and I just want to follow up with him, he was saying that the Marines had actually offered money and equipment to this Iraqi army, which already exists, but to these generals who are now stepping in to lead the army. I am wondering, Tony, you say they refused that money and that equipment. What kind of military force do they have? What kind of equipment? What kind of weapons do they have to enforce this agreement in Fallujah?
PERRY: Well they have all the basic assets. They don't have the strategic or high-tech stuff that the West has or the U.S. has, but they have got the humvees and they have got M-16s. You don't need nuclear weapons or B-1 bombers to patrol a city. And I think the Iraqis either have sufficient firepower and vehicles and such or can quickly get them. This is a very well armed country. There are probably enough weapons in warehouses throughout this country. I don't think weaponry, vehicles, radios, all that sort of bric-a-brac, is going to be a problem.
COSTELLO: Well, and the insurgents there don't have the most sophisticated of weapons, although there are many.
PERRY: True, and -- but we don't know -- and we don't know how many there are, several hundred, several thousand. But I think, too, you have to realize that the Iraqis probably have a good handle on who these people are and how to get to them, how to put pressure on them to put their arms down peacefully.
CLINCH: Well on that point, Tony, I mean this continuing question, there's always sort of a split impression of whether this insurgency is Iraqi-led or foreign fighters. There's fascinating reporting, which you are probably not aware of, today in the "New York Times" of more details emerging of some of these insurgents being led by a very specific group of former Iraqi intelligence officers, the M- 14 (ph) as they were described under Saddam Hussein. If that is the case, if it is Iraqis, then obviously there is a communication between these former generals and these type of people. But what about this foreign fighter question, is there a question of...
PERRY: Well I think -- I think -- I think when it all ends up it will be -- it will prove to have been a witch's brew of jihadists from throughout the region, Syrians, Saudis, Iraqi military officers, intelligence officers and then just street thugs who know how to throw a hand grenade or -- and use an RPG. There's not a lot of skill factor there. I don't think it's going to be one consistent string. I don't think it's going to be one fellow running it all. We're going to probably find freelancers all over the place making some sort of common cause.
We're not -- we haven't really seen more than platoon-sized skirmishes. We haven't seen hundreds of them. We haven't seen them do large tactics. So there is nothing that indicates to me there is a centralized authority but rather sort of a league of insurgents.
CLINCH: If Fallujah and the rest of Iraq, having been freed from the grip of Saddam Hussein by the United States, now hand -- the U.S. handing power back to these former Saddam generals. Obviously they have an ability to control the military. But what's the impression of how Iraqis will react to that in Fallujah seeing former Saddam generals getting this power?
PERRY: Well this was an area that was fairly sympathetic to Saddam Hussein, so I don't think you would see the reaction you would in a Shi'a area where the Shi'as were persecuted. On the other hand, there's a sort of xenophobia, they say, among the Fallujah residents. And like anybody, we'll have to see. One of the many imponderables of this thing.
COSTELLO: Tell us about the U.S. Marines who have been -- who have been there, you know, and they can't fire back unless they are fired upon. Tell me how the U.S. Marines, who have been fighting these insurgents, will feel about this deal.
PERRY: I think there will be a certain disappointment among the younger Marines who are pretty keyed up, who are in to exercising their professional skills. I think the older fellows, the officers, they will realize that, who was it, the Chinese warrior philosopher Sun Tzu said that the smart general wins the battle without firing a shot. So I think we'll have a mix -- a mix of opinions.
COSTELLO: Again, can you put this in a nutshell, because I know you have to get going. Put this in a nutshell of the new developments out of Fallujah this morning.
PERRY: There has apparently been a tentative agreement between the United States officials, military and civilian, and various Iraqi officials to end the Marine siege of Fallujah, to withdraw the Marines over a period of days and to turn over operations for security and ridding the city of insurgents to the Iraqi army. And this is possible because four Iraqi generals, former leaders in the Iraqi army under Saddam Hussein, have stepped forward and said we will take control, we can do it.
And I just heard the Major General James Mattis, the commander of the 1st Marine Division, tell one of those generals we will work together, we will make this happen. We, the Marines, didn't come here to fight. We came here to help. That's where we are at now.
Lots of questions still to be answered, a lot of imponderables, we'll just have to see how this plays out. But as of now, it looks as if the specter of an assault by Marines and urban battle in downtown Fallujah, that could have cost Marine lives and also civilian lives, that specter seems to have been considerably eased.
COSTELLO: Such a giant step forward. "L.A. Times" reporter Tony Perry on the phone with us talking about this tentative deal in Fallujah this morning, many, many thanks to Tony.
We're going to take a short break. We'll be back with much more on DAYBREAK.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COSTELLO: And good morning to you. We are following breaking news going on right now out of Iraq, a possible solution to the violence in Fallujah.
From the CNN Global Headquarters in Atlanta, I'm Carol Costello.
Here are the latest headlines for you right now. Possibly a huge break in the Iraq situation, we're just getting reports that four former Iraqi generals are now vowing to end the violence in Fallujah. The Iraqi generals are meeting right now with U.S. Marines.
Making history at the White House, but no stenographer will be there to record it. President Bush and Vice President Cheney will answer questions a few hours from now from the 9/11 Commission.
In Iraq, the AP is reporting a U.S. soldier from the 1st Infantry Division has been killed and another wounded in a road
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Aired April 30, 2003 - 05:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: New this morning, a U.S. military checkpoint comes under attack in Najaf and American soldiers fire back and pierce front lines in the fight for Iraq.
It is Thursday, April 29, and this is DAYBREAK.
Good morning to you, welcome to the second half-hour of DAYBREAK. From CNN's Global Headquarters in Atlanta, I'm Carol Costello.
Let me bring you up to date right now.
At the White House this morning, President Bush and Vice President Cheney will answer questions from the commission investigating the 9/11 terrorist attack. No recording of that meeting will be made.
Near Najaf, Iraq, a U.S. military checkpoint is attacked today by insurgents using rocket-propelled grenades, mortars and small arms fire. No casualties reported.
Astronaut Mike Foale and Cosmonaut Alexander Kaleri return to Earth today. They have been on the International Space Station for the last six months. Touchdown is set for shortly after 8:00 p.m. Eastern.
And at 9:30 Eastern this morning, the World War II Memorial on the National Mall in Washington opens to the public for the first time. And to the 16 million who served in uniform, thanks.
Now to Chad for a look at the forecast.
CHAD MYERS, CNN METEOROLOGIST: That was an unbelievable number, Carol. They are said they opened it early because 1,100, 1,100 World War II veterans are dying every day. So they are getting all the way up -- they wanted to get it open so that some of them can actually see it before that happens.
Good morning, everybody.
(WEATHER REPORT)
COSTELLO: On the phone right now, we have "Los Angeles Times" reporter Tony Perry. He is in Fallujah, and he may have some new information for us.
Tony, what can you tell us? TONY PERRY, "LOS ANGELES TIMES" REPORTER: A tentative deal has apparently been struck to end the Marine siege of this city. An agreement between the U.S. and various Iraqi officials would turn over security operations in Fallujah to the Iraqi army.
The breakthrough apparently came when four former Iraqi generals stepped forward and offered to take leadership roles in getting the army back in shape, moving it into Fallujah and taking care of the security there, including arresting and dearming the terrorists who have been fighting battles for some three weeks with the Marines.
In a meeting just -- that concluded just a few minutes ago between the Iraqi generals and the Marine generals, details started to be worked out and for a slow transition of a week or two that the Marines would stay in place. Then they would move out of the city as the new Iraqi army takes control of the city.
Major General James Mattis, who is the commander of the 1st Marine Division, came out of the meeting. He was talking very amiably to a man, a three-star general in the Iraqi army. And he said to him, we will make it work, you and I. We will work together. We will work this through. We, the Marines, didn't come here to fight. We came here to help. That's Major General James Mattis talking to his opposite member, a former Iraqi general, who has stepped forward and said he will help, along with some other generals, get the Iraqi army involved in Fallujah.
COSTELLO: Tony, I'm curious about these four...
PERRY: Yes.
COSTELLO: ... Iraqi generals that stepped forward. Are they from -- are they Ba'athists? Were they from Saddam Hussein's army?
PERRY: They were from Saddam Hussein's army. They are professional soldiers. They even fought against the Americans a year ago. Some of them were Ba'athist. You had to be a Ba'athist to survive. But they are thought to be honorable men.
The Marines will be watching their conduct very closely. The Marines fought against these men a year ago. They seem to think that they are professionals who truly care about their country and want to step forward. And it seemed the potential for destruction if the Marines have to go in and take care of the insurgents.
What the Marines really want, of course, is to avoid a street-to- street, house-to-house urban battle in the core of Fallujah, a battle that would lead to Marine casualties and it would certainly lead to civilian casualties. That is what the Marines want to avoid, that's why they have always wanted to put, as they say, an Iraqi face on this security operation.
The Iraqi police and their sort of national guard has been heretofore fairly disappointing to the Marines. The Marines have been exasperated that no Iraqis have stepped forward for leadership. Now apparently that has occurred with these four former generals. They have stepped forward and it looks like we have a way out of the siege without having the Marines having to go downtown and fight a door-to- door urban battle.
COSTELLO: You know, Tony, we also hear, and this is great news about the Iraqi generals, but we often hear that the Iraqi security force isn't adequately trained to take over security in Fallujah. In fact, that's why that plan to patrol the streets with U.S. Marines has been put off for a couple of days. Do these generals have enough Iraqis to help them secure Fallujah?
PERRY: You know Iraq had, for many years, one of the largest, best trained, best equipped armies in the world. It couldn't stand up to the United States Army in the first Gulf War or a year ago in the mission to topple Saddam Hussein, but they have a long military tradition. They have men who are professionals, who ran their army and did it rather well and they have now stepped forward.
Now the Iraqi police and the, what they call the ICDC (ph), the Iraqi Civil Conservation Core, they really had no history, so they were really being constituted from the ground up. And as you suggest, they are a very rickety, immature, in terms of training and leadership, group. They really, I don't think, were up to the security operation. The army, however, if it can be reconstituted with its major officers and its non-commissioned officers with its traditions, I think it's got a shot.
An interesting sideline is that the U.S. officials, the Marine officials and the civilian officials, offered money and equipment to these generals to get their army going. They turned it down. There is a certain pride. They want to get the Iraqi army to take care of an Iraqi problem, which is an insurgency, which is a criminal element in this town of Fallujah, which has really gripped this city for some period of time.
COSTELLO: Well I guess the next question would be...
PERRY: So what we have is a tentative agreement.
COSTELLO: The next question would be, Tony, is how long would it take those generals to reconstitute the Iraqi army, getting the people they want to provide security to Fallujah?
PERRY: We'll have to see. I think we're talking a matter of weeks, we're not talking a matter of months. There is an Iraqi army that is being reconstituted. Remember the Americans disbanded the army. There was a lot of controversy that they shouldn't have done that. Well they did it anyway. So there is an army in place.
What this would do is bring the generals who ran the army previously back for some leadership. They doubtless would bring a lot of other people. They'd bring some credibility to the army. So it's got a potential. It would be a matter of weeks. I think the Marines, there are 7,000 of them here, will stay in place for a matter of weeks, then start to move out, if this is successful.
COSTELLO: Tony. PERRY: Now there are a couple of caveats.
COSTELLO: Tony, let me...
PERRY: One,...
COSTELLO: Go ahead -- Tony.
PERRY: ... the insurgents have to stop fighting.
DAVID CLINCH, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL EDITOR: Tony, this is David Clinch, just joining Carol here, with the question related to what you were saying there. Are the -- are the Marines asking these generals to just contain the situation and maintain security in Fallujah or are they asking them to take on the insurgents? There have been a lot of questions about whether these insurgents are foreign fighters or perhaps even former Saddam loyalists themselves. Is this the Marines asking them to maintain security only or to attack and to destroy this insurgent group?
PERRY: What they are asking them for is to create stability and security and to take the weapons out of the hands of the Fallujah and out of the hands of the insurgents. How they do that, I think the Iraqi army would have some flexibility. They may have to mount some sort of offensive themselves, or they, being from the culture and from the society, may have ways of getting to the insurgents other than a head-long assault.
One thing they are going to have to do, and the Marines were very specific about this, was the Iraqis, the Iraqi generals will have to put pressure on the insurgents to stop these daily, nightly, hourly attacks that the insurgents have been launching against the Marines.
CLINCH: Understood. I mean clearly what we have been seeing over the last 24, 48 hours is the Marines and the U.S. military, in general, not reacting only to small attacks with a small response but with very, very large response, particularly during the day yesterday. Is there any indication from the Marines and the U.S. military that they will tone down the level of their activity?
PERRY: Well they actually have reacted very surgically, I think. They have not used massive retaliation, but they are going to protect themselves. And that means if people are attacking, they are going to be counterattacked and there is going to be -- there is going to be fire brought to bear on those people. The Marines are not going to take casualties of an effort -- in an effort to calm things down. They are going to protect themselves and they are going to protect their lines and they are going to assault people who are assaulting them. There is going to be no change in that.
But what the Marines want are these Iraqis, who are thought to have contact with the insurgents, they want them to put pressure on the insurgents to come to heel, to stop the attacks and lay down their weapons and to give this city a chance.
COSTELLO: And, Tony, the next question... PERRY: The Marines want what the U.S. wants...
COSTELLO: Tony, another question about the transition from you know the U.S. Marines that are there now to these Iraqi generals, will there be a period of time when the Iraqis and the U.S. Marines will be fighting the insurgents side by side and who would be in charge?
PERRY: I don't think that's --I don't think that that's what they have in mind. I think they have in mind a fairly quick transition in which Iraqi troops move in into their own city and handle things in their own manner with some sort of overseer fashion. But we're not talking of a joint military force with Iraqi and the Marine humvees going side by side, we're talking about the Marines pulling out gradually, a smooth turnover.
General Mattis, I was there when the head general turned to one of his subordinates and said I want a smooth turnover. Talking about a turnover of responsibility to the Iraqi army who will then deal with things in the manner they feel is appropriate.
COSTELLO: Should we look upon this as a sort of experiment for coalition forces? Might this come into play in other parts of Iraq, as well, if this works?
PERRY: Well precisely. That's what they are hoping. They have always said, as Fallujah goes, much of Iraq will go. And if it can work here, if the Iraqi army will step forward with leadership and commitment and make it work here, turn this chaotic city into a city of stability, who knows, it can work other places.
CLINCH: (INAUDIBLE) this is -- this...
PERRY: Because what the U.S. wants is a stable situation.
CLINCH: Just to be clear, Tony, the Iraqi army you are referring to, these generals and the forces they want to use, that is distinct from the security forces that have been training with the U.S. military there to go on these joint patrols?
PERRY: Exactly.
CLINCH: This is a -- this is a new force?
PERRY: Yes, those security forces are their police and national guard. The Iraqi army, there is an Iraqi army. It has been reconstituted and is being built, built back up into something that it was previously. So there is an Iraqi army. What it has lacked is leadership. What it has lacked is some of the leadership that was there before the army was disbanded a year ago.
Now some of those leaders are stepping back and stepping to the fore to help Fallujah. Because what the U.S. wants is some sort of stability so that hundreds of millions of dollars of projects, improvements, water, power, electricity, schools, roads, all that kind of thing can proceed in Fallujah. That's all been on hold because of -- because of the murders of the four Americans and the mutilation of their bodies.
And what the Marines and the Coalition Provisional Authority wants is an end to that sort of violence so that contractors, Americans, Westerners, can go back to Fallujah and with the Fallujah residents themselves start building their city back up.
COSTELLO: You know -- you know what the continuing worry is, though, Tony, because of -- we have heard word that Iraqi forces have turned and run when the times got tough and some of them aren't very willing to fight fellow Iraqis. These four generals, if they are perceived as working with the United States, you know do we know how that will affect the psyche of this Iraqi army?
PERRY: Sure, I mean there are all sorts of rocks in the road on this thing. Can they bring leadership to bear? Will Iraqis bring force to bear on other Iraqis? There is a history that they have done that in the past, rather unhappily so. Sure, there's all sorts of things. Will the terrorists decide to wipe out these four generals? Sure, lots of things can happen. That's why the word tentative I think needs to be underlined in red ink.
This is a tentative agreement, lots of moving parts, lots of details, but it's a move forward. And it's something that hadn't really been thought of or even talked of until the last couple of days. I mean the Americans have been bemoaning really the lack of leadership among the Iraqis. Now some Iraqi leaders have stepped forward.
COSTELLO: I know, and we keep asking you such negative questions or seemingly negative questions, but this is a big step forward for coalition forces and the U.S. Marines, of course, who are continuing to surround Fallujah.
PERRY: It's an enormous step with enormous risks. So, of course, was an all-out assault downtown with the risk to American casualties and civilian casualties. Risks all the way around. This, the Marine and civilian officials believe, are risks worth taking, that the Iraqi army can get its act together and can clean up one of their own cities.
CLINCH: Tony, this is just great reporting, and we thank you very much for giving this to us. Just a question here, what are the first concrete signs that we can anticipate showing the Iraqi army taking control in Fallujah? What kind of first steps are we looking at?
PERRY: I think that we -- I think within days they will be moving their troops in. I think there will be public announcements both in Iraq on the Iraqi media and the Western media saying leaders have emerged. It is a new day. It isn't just -- it's a new paradigm, if you will, that it isn't just the insurgents versus the Marines, there are now Iraqi leaders who have stepped forward.
There are also there are separate meetings going on as we speak with the sheikhs, the tribal leaders to get them involved more. And there have been a series of meetings with the civilian, the government people, the mayor, other people like that to get them involved in this idea, too.
We'll see Iraqi troops come in. We'll see Americans start to pull back. If we are lucky, we will not see the nightly attacks by the insurgents on the Marines. That will be one of the acid tests to see if the Iraqi generals have the ability, have the clout, have the connections with the insurgents to stop them from attacking a Marine.
COSTELLO: Can you tell us anything more about these generals, who they are, how they served in Saddam Hussein's old army?
PERRY: I'm told that they were two and three-star generals and commanded tens of thousands of men, are considered professionals. I talked to a Marine colonel who fought against one of the men, thought he fought honorably and he was a professional and he had some regard for him. And the soldiers who fight against each other, if they fight within certain bounds, no weapons of mass destruction, no using women and children as shields, have a certain respect for each other. And I don't think the Marines would have allowed generals that they know -- they have a lot of background on these people. They would not have allowed generals that they know to be dishonorable or to be of questionable integrity to have stepped forward.
COSTELLO: You know the...
PERRY: This is part of an agreement among professionals.
COSTELLO: ... strange part is did these generals, when you know it was deemed active combat in Iraq, did these generals lead the charge against Americans?
PERRY: Could very well -- could very well have, in the same sense that some of the German generals after World War II took positions in the -- under the Marshall Plan to help Europe get back on its feet. At some point you have to say combat is over and we have to live together, and I think possibly that's what we are seeing here.
COSTELLO: Tony Perry from the "Los...
PERRY: And there has been a move...
COSTELLO: Go ahead.
PERRY: There has been a move to get some of the Ba'ath Party people, who had been sort of purged, if you will, get them back involved, not just in Fallujah, where the mayor is a former Ba'ath Party member, but get them involved all throughout the country, because they have (UNINTELLIGIBLE) and they have competencies,...
COSTELLO: And that was something...
PERRY: ... and none of them are crooks (ph).
COSTELLO: And that was something, Tony, that American generals really wanted on the ground in Iraq.
PERRY: Indeed, and I think that's finally coming to bear. People with competency and leadership, even if they were part of the Saddam Hussein regime by being a part of the Ba'ath Party apparatus. They probably did that to survive. And those that have integrity and competency, they are being allowed back in.
CLINCH: Well, Tony, this is fascinating stuff, again. But I'm wondering now how you know, obviously this is still very tentative, and it remains to be seen how it will work in Fallujah or elsewhere.
PERRY: Sure.
CLINCH: But I'm wondering how we could see this fitting into the hand over process that is going on separately. I mean there is still to be a new government announced and formed, there is still to be a U.N. role to be determined and of course the U.S. military role after June 30. How is -- how are the U.S. military imagining these kinds of deals and obviously part of the risk that you are talking about is that these generals gain power, significant power, within isolated areas within Iraq. How does that fit in to the hand over process, the bigger picture?
PERRY: With some -- with some difficulty. Lots of details to be worked out, a lot of moving parts, you're right. What about these Iraqi generals, will they retain their position even after Iraq has a new government that, in theory, would want to name its own generals? We'll have to see. This is the beginning of the end. It is probably not the end itself to the problem of Fallujah.
COSTELLO: I'm just sort of interested in the process. Has this been going a long time? Did these generals approach coalition forces? I mean how did it all come about?
PERRY: Well, from what I understand, these people, the generals, they were known. They have been courted, if you will, but only in the last few days have they stepped forward. And the Marines believe it is because they saw what the Marines can do. They saw the battles. They saw the death toll among insurgents. They knew what would happen to Fallujah if the Marines had to go downtown to take out the insurgents and that that really prodded them into stepping forward and taking a leadership and a risky leadership role, too.
COSTELLO: And just to bring our viewers up to date, again, a tentative deal has been made with four generals from the former -- from the former army of Saddam Hussein. Eventually they will lead Iraqi forces to take control of the city of Fallujah, but that will not happen for a few months.
On the phone right now, from the "L.A. Times," Tony Perry, who has been filling us in with some fascinating information.
CLINCH: Yes. Well, Carol, just, I mean again, with Tony on the phone from Fallujah, one of the points that he was making early, and I just want to follow up with him, he was saying that the Marines had actually offered money and equipment to this Iraqi army, which already exists, but to these generals who are now stepping in to lead the army. I am wondering, Tony, you say they refused that money and that equipment. What kind of military force do they have? What kind of equipment? What kind of weapons do they have to enforce this agreement in Fallujah?
PERRY: Well they have all the basic assets. They don't have the strategic or high-tech stuff that the West has or the U.S. has, but they have got the humvees and they have got M-16s. You don't need nuclear weapons or B-1 bombers to patrol a city. And I think the Iraqis either have sufficient firepower and vehicles and such or can quickly get them. This is a very well armed country. There are probably enough weapons in warehouses throughout this country. I don't think weaponry, vehicles, radios, all that sort of bric-a-brac, is going to be a problem.
COSTELLO: Well, and the insurgents there don't have the most sophisticated of weapons, although there are many.
PERRY: True, and -- but we don't know -- and we don't know how many there are, several hundred, several thousand. But I think, too, you have to realize that the Iraqis probably have a good handle on who these people are and how to get to them, how to put pressure on them to put their arms down peacefully.
CLINCH: Well on that point, Tony, I mean this continuing question, there's always sort of a split impression of whether this insurgency is Iraqi-led or foreign fighters. There's fascinating reporting, which you are probably not aware of, today in the "New York Times" of more details emerging of some of these insurgents being led by a very specific group of former Iraqi intelligence officers, the M- 14 (ph) as they were described under Saddam Hussein. If that is the case, if it is Iraqis, then obviously there is a communication between these former generals and these type of people. But what about this foreign fighter question, is there a question of...
PERRY: Well I think -- I think -- I think when it all ends up it will be -- it will prove to have been a witch's brew of jihadists from throughout the region, Syrians, Saudis, Iraqi military officers, intelligence officers and then just street thugs who know how to throw a hand grenade or -- and use an RPG. There's not a lot of skill factor there. I don't think it's going to be one consistent string. I don't think it's going to be one fellow running it all. We're going to probably find freelancers all over the place making some sort of common cause.
We're not -- we haven't really seen more than platoon-sized skirmishes. We haven't seen hundreds of them. We haven't seen them do large tactics. So there is nothing that indicates to me there is a centralized authority but rather sort of a league of insurgents.
CLINCH: If Fallujah and the rest of Iraq, having been freed from the grip of Saddam Hussein by the United States, now hand -- the U.S. handing power back to these former Saddam generals. Obviously they have an ability to control the military. But what's the impression of how Iraqis will react to that in Fallujah seeing former Saddam generals getting this power?
PERRY: Well this was an area that was fairly sympathetic to Saddam Hussein, so I don't think you would see the reaction you would in a Shi'a area where the Shi'as were persecuted. On the other hand, there's a sort of xenophobia, they say, among the Fallujah residents. And like anybody, we'll have to see. One of the many imponderables of this thing.
COSTELLO: Tell us about the U.S. Marines who have been -- who have been there, you know, and they can't fire back unless they are fired upon. Tell me how the U.S. Marines, who have been fighting these insurgents, will feel about this deal.
PERRY: I think there will be a certain disappointment among the younger Marines who are pretty keyed up, who are in to exercising their professional skills. I think the older fellows, the officers, they will realize that, who was it, the Chinese warrior philosopher Sun Tzu said that the smart general wins the battle without firing a shot. So I think we'll have a mix -- a mix of opinions.
COSTELLO: Again, can you put this in a nutshell, because I know you have to get going. Put this in a nutshell of the new developments out of Fallujah this morning.
PERRY: There has apparently been a tentative agreement between the United States officials, military and civilian, and various Iraqi officials to end the Marine siege of Fallujah, to withdraw the Marines over a period of days and to turn over operations for security and ridding the city of insurgents to the Iraqi army. And this is possible because four Iraqi generals, former leaders in the Iraqi army under Saddam Hussein, have stepped forward and said we will take control, we can do it.
And I just heard the Major General James Mattis, the commander of the 1st Marine Division, tell one of those generals we will work together, we will make this happen. We, the Marines, didn't come here to fight. We came here to help. That's where we are at now.
Lots of questions still to be answered, a lot of imponderables, we'll just have to see how this plays out. But as of now, it looks as if the specter of an assault by Marines and urban battle in downtown Fallujah, that could have cost Marine lives and also civilian lives, that specter seems to have been considerably eased.
COSTELLO: Such a giant step forward. "L.A. Times" reporter Tony Perry on the phone with us talking about this tentative deal in Fallujah this morning, many, many thanks to Tony.
We're going to take a short break. We'll be back with much more on DAYBREAK.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COSTELLO: And good morning to you. We are following breaking news going on right now out of Iraq, a possible solution to the violence in Fallujah.
From the CNN Global Headquarters in Atlanta, I'm Carol Costello.
Here are the latest headlines for you right now. Possibly a huge break in the Iraq situation, we're just getting reports that four former Iraqi generals are now vowing to end the violence in Fallujah. The Iraqi generals are meeting right now with U.S. Marines.
Making history at the White House, but no stenographer will be there to record it. President Bush and Vice President Cheney will answer questions a few hours from now from the 9/11 Commission.
In Iraq, the AP is reporting a U.S. soldier from the 1st Infantry Division has been killed and another wounded in a road
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