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More Violence in Fallujah; Rumsfeld Visits Baghdad

Aired April 30, 2003 - 10:07   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


LEON HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: There is still some resistance going on in Iraq, despite the fact the war is going to be officially called to an end soon. Violence erupted for a second straight day between U.S. troops and Iraqi civilians. Iraqi protesters returned to the streets of Fallujah, which is west of Baghdad, one day after dozens of civilians were killed and injured there. There are reports of at least two people being killed today in the latest clash.
CNN's Karl Penhaul is in Fallujah. Let's check in with him now and get the very latest -- all right, Karl, bring us up to date.

KARL PENHAUL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Leon, yes indeed, another day, another protest here in Fallujah. We've done a tour of the Fallujah general hospital this morning, talked to doctors there. They've confirmed two Iraqi civilians were killed in that protest, 15 others were wounded. All suffering gunshot wounds.

From then on, the details of the circumstances of how they were shot, when the shooting broke out, become blurred. Both sides telling vastly different stories. The demonstrators say they marched to a compound occupied by U.S. soldiers to protest the deaths of other Iraqi civilians earlier this week in a separate protest. They say that as they neared the compound, U.S. soldiers opened fire on them.

Talking to commanders of the U.S. soldiers, they say that, no, the demonstrators started to throw rocks inside the compound, and then one of the demonstrators turned on a passing U.S. military convoy with an AK-47, fired a shot, and that provoked a response from soldiers traveling on the convoy, and also provoked response from soldiers inside the compound.

That said, as far as we know, and from what the soldiers themselves have told us, their rules of engagement haven't changed from the days during the height of the war. They have been strictly told not to fire indiscriminately on civilians, and if there is provocation in the form of gunfire coming from a crowd, they must be very, very sure to target the individual with the weapon before they're allowed to open fire.

Like I say, those demonstrators say that's not their version of events. They say that as they approached the compound, the soldiers opened fire, unprovoked -- Leon.

HARRIS: Then Karl, what are you hearing, then, about what the troops are going to do about all of this? If their presence right now is such an aggravating factor, are they necessarily going to be bringing in more troops to guarantee security on the ground there, or fewer or what? What are you hearing about that?

PENHAUL: Well, earlier in the week, Leon, the first protest -- that was essentially because U.S. troops had set up a presence in a district school, and parents and teachers that marched to the school asking troops to withdraw so that children could get on with classes. That led to the first protest, 15 Iraqi civilians killed in that one, more than 50 injured. And following that, last night in fact, the U.S. troops did withdraw from that school.

This morning, we understand the mayor of Fallujah has talked to U.S. troops and he's asked the troops to withdraw from more residential areas. There's been no firm commitment on that from U.S. troops, though they do say -- we understand that they are studying that proposal -- Leon.

HARRIS: All right. Thank you, Karl. Be careful there. Karl Penhaul, reporting live for us from Fallujah, the town where it has seen violence in two straight days now.

Now, one of the architects of the U.S.-led war on Iraq is now in that country's capital city. Weeks after it was wrestled away from the regime of Saddam Hussein, Donald Rumsfeld, now the highest ranking U.S. official to visit that country since the ouster of the Hussein government.

CNN's Jim Clancy is there in Baghdad. He has got the very latest -- hello, Jim.

JIM CLANCY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Leon. We're watching the secretary of defense as he has made the rounds in Iraq this day, visiting first Basra, talking with British troops, thanking them for all of their efforts, hearing about the battle that they had for Basra, and also here in Baghdad, taking the time to go out and meet U.S. troops.

He also had a chance to meet with some Iraqi civilians, we are told, or there were at least plans for him to do that, although he really didn't get out on the streets to meet any of the Iraqis themselves in their own neighborhoods here because of tight security.

Most of all, it was a message that was delivered to U.S. forces at the airport. And that message was direct, it was one that was giving them congratulations and praise.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: It was possibly the fastest march on a capital in modern military history.

(APPLAUSE)

And unlike many armies in the world, you came not to conquer, not to occupy, but to liberate, and the Iraqi people know this. And when you arrived in Baghdad, many of the Iraqi people came into the streets to welcome you, pulling down statues of Saddam Hussein, celebrating their newfound freedom, freedom that you helped restore and what a sight that was.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CLANCY: The secretary said that the soldiers had not only changed the very course of history for Iraq, they made changes here that would likely affect the future of the entire region. He said, though, there was a lot more work to be done, eliminating pockets of the old regime, the Baath party, the Fedayeen, those loyal to President Saddam Hussein, as well as terrorist networks.

On the former point, already U.S. forces are getting a lot of assistance from Iraqis that want to help to identify, isolate, and eliminate some of the members of the old regime. They believe that over the period of time, they will be able to do that.

It may be for historical purposes, important to note this is not Donald Rumsfeld's first visit to Baghdad. He was here in 1983 during the Reagan administration. He met and shook hands with President Saddam Hussein. Of course, very different political circumstances in those days. The Iran/Iraq war was raging. The U.S., though saying it was neutral in that conflict, is believed to have passed at least intelligence, satellite photos to the Iraqi side.

Also, the U.S. was charged with looking the other way when weapons of mass destruction, chemical weapons, were used by both sides, although the State Department had protested that use numerous times.

But a visit here this day for Donald Rumsfeld that will probably not be as remembered as much by Iraqis for anything that it changed, but more as a punctuation mark, a period, if you will, in the end of the war itself, the heavy part of the conflict.

At the same time, one of the places that Donald Rumsfeld was not able to go to today that he probably would have liked to, would have been a site for weapons of mass destruction, or the development. The reason: none have been found. But the search for that goes on -- Leon.

HARRIS: Briefly, Jim, is there going to be any sort of a signature moment to this trip?

CLANCY: No, it's not expected that we are going to have something of that nature, although his meetings with some of the Iraqi officials may be able to shed some light for him. Certainly his congratulations to the troops, more or less, the whole purpose that he came here, and underscoring to those skeptical Iraqis, that message that Iraq is not ours, Iraq is yours. We are here to help you to form your own government, an interim government first, and then a permanent, free government, and we're not going to stay a day longer than we need to. It is the personal message that the secretary of defense was delivering, perhaps, that is going to be remembered here.

HARRIS: Understood. Thank you, Jim. Jim Clancy, live in Baghdad.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com






Aired April 30, 2003 - 10:07   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LEON HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: There is still some resistance going on in Iraq, despite the fact the war is going to be officially called to an end soon. Violence erupted for a second straight day between U.S. troops and Iraqi civilians. Iraqi protesters returned to the streets of Fallujah, which is west of Baghdad, one day after dozens of civilians were killed and injured there. There are reports of at least two people being killed today in the latest clash.
CNN's Karl Penhaul is in Fallujah. Let's check in with him now and get the very latest -- all right, Karl, bring us up to date.

KARL PENHAUL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Leon, yes indeed, another day, another protest here in Fallujah. We've done a tour of the Fallujah general hospital this morning, talked to doctors there. They've confirmed two Iraqi civilians were killed in that protest, 15 others were wounded. All suffering gunshot wounds.

From then on, the details of the circumstances of how they were shot, when the shooting broke out, become blurred. Both sides telling vastly different stories. The demonstrators say they marched to a compound occupied by U.S. soldiers to protest the deaths of other Iraqi civilians earlier this week in a separate protest. They say that as they neared the compound, U.S. soldiers opened fire on them.

Talking to commanders of the U.S. soldiers, they say that, no, the demonstrators started to throw rocks inside the compound, and then one of the demonstrators turned on a passing U.S. military convoy with an AK-47, fired a shot, and that provoked a response from soldiers traveling on the convoy, and also provoked response from soldiers inside the compound.

That said, as far as we know, and from what the soldiers themselves have told us, their rules of engagement haven't changed from the days during the height of the war. They have been strictly told not to fire indiscriminately on civilians, and if there is provocation in the form of gunfire coming from a crowd, they must be very, very sure to target the individual with the weapon before they're allowed to open fire.

Like I say, those demonstrators say that's not their version of events. They say that as they approached the compound, the soldiers opened fire, unprovoked -- Leon.

HARRIS: Then Karl, what are you hearing, then, about what the troops are going to do about all of this? If their presence right now is such an aggravating factor, are they necessarily going to be bringing in more troops to guarantee security on the ground there, or fewer or what? What are you hearing about that?

PENHAUL: Well, earlier in the week, Leon, the first protest -- that was essentially because U.S. troops had set up a presence in a district school, and parents and teachers that marched to the school asking troops to withdraw so that children could get on with classes. That led to the first protest, 15 Iraqi civilians killed in that one, more than 50 injured. And following that, last night in fact, the U.S. troops did withdraw from that school.

This morning, we understand the mayor of Fallujah has talked to U.S. troops and he's asked the troops to withdraw from more residential areas. There's been no firm commitment on that from U.S. troops, though they do say -- we understand that they are studying that proposal -- Leon.

HARRIS: All right. Thank you, Karl. Be careful there. Karl Penhaul, reporting live for us from Fallujah, the town where it has seen violence in two straight days now.

Now, one of the architects of the U.S.-led war on Iraq is now in that country's capital city. Weeks after it was wrestled away from the regime of Saddam Hussein, Donald Rumsfeld, now the highest ranking U.S. official to visit that country since the ouster of the Hussein government.

CNN's Jim Clancy is there in Baghdad. He has got the very latest -- hello, Jim.

JIM CLANCY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Leon. We're watching the secretary of defense as he has made the rounds in Iraq this day, visiting first Basra, talking with British troops, thanking them for all of their efforts, hearing about the battle that they had for Basra, and also here in Baghdad, taking the time to go out and meet U.S. troops.

He also had a chance to meet with some Iraqi civilians, we are told, or there were at least plans for him to do that, although he really didn't get out on the streets to meet any of the Iraqis themselves in their own neighborhoods here because of tight security.

Most of all, it was a message that was delivered to U.S. forces at the airport. And that message was direct, it was one that was giving them congratulations and praise.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: It was possibly the fastest march on a capital in modern military history.

(APPLAUSE)

And unlike many armies in the world, you came not to conquer, not to occupy, but to liberate, and the Iraqi people know this. And when you arrived in Baghdad, many of the Iraqi people came into the streets to welcome you, pulling down statues of Saddam Hussein, celebrating their newfound freedom, freedom that you helped restore and what a sight that was.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CLANCY: The secretary said that the soldiers had not only changed the very course of history for Iraq, they made changes here that would likely affect the future of the entire region. He said, though, there was a lot more work to be done, eliminating pockets of the old regime, the Baath party, the Fedayeen, those loyal to President Saddam Hussein, as well as terrorist networks.

On the former point, already U.S. forces are getting a lot of assistance from Iraqis that want to help to identify, isolate, and eliminate some of the members of the old regime. They believe that over the period of time, they will be able to do that.

It may be for historical purposes, important to note this is not Donald Rumsfeld's first visit to Baghdad. He was here in 1983 during the Reagan administration. He met and shook hands with President Saddam Hussein. Of course, very different political circumstances in those days. The Iran/Iraq war was raging. The U.S., though saying it was neutral in that conflict, is believed to have passed at least intelligence, satellite photos to the Iraqi side.

Also, the U.S. was charged with looking the other way when weapons of mass destruction, chemical weapons, were used by both sides, although the State Department had protested that use numerous times.

But a visit here this day for Donald Rumsfeld that will probably not be as remembered as much by Iraqis for anything that it changed, but more as a punctuation mark, a period, if you will, in the end of the war itself, the heavy part of the conflict.

At the same time, one of the places that Donald Rumsfeld was not able to go to today that he probably would have liked to, would have been a site for weapons of mass destruction, or the development. The reason: none have been found. But the search for that goes on -- Leon.

HARRIS: Briefly, Jim, is there going to be any sort of a signature moment to this trip?

CLANCY: No, it's not expected that we are going to have something of that nature, although his meetings with some of the Iraqi officials may be able to shed some light for him. Certainly his congratulations to the troops, more or less, the whole purpose that he came here, and underscoring to those skeptical Iraqis, that message that Iraq is not ours, Iraq is yours. We are here to help you to form your own government, an interim government first, and then a permanent, free government, and we're not going to stay a day longer than we need to. It is the personal message that the secretary of defense was delivering, perhaps, that is going to be remembered here.

HARRIS: Understood. Thank you, Jim. Jim Clancy, live in Baghdad.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com