|
CNN LOU DOBBS MONEYLINE
President Addresses Nation; Interview With Bill Thomas; Justice Department Charges 8 More Enron Executives
Aired May 1, 2003 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, HOST: Tonight, the president addresses the nation. He will tell us that major combat operations in Iraq have ended. The president will make that address in three hours from the deck of the carrier, the USS Abraham Lincoln. Frank Buckley will have the report from the Lincoln.
And John King will have the details of the president's message tonight.
Also, the president is accelerating the redeployment of U.S. forces on two continents. This latest redeployment is from old Europe to new Europe. Senior Pentagon correspondent, Jamie McIntyre, will have the report.
And corporate corruption. Dozens of new indictments in the Enron scandal to tell you about tonight.
Also tonight, we will be talking with Congressman Bill Thomas, the chairman of the House Ways and Means Committee, about the president's plan to cut taxes.
And we will be joined by author, Niall Ferguson, who says the United States is, without question, a global empire.
But first, we'll go to Charles Molineaux at CNN Center for the latest headlines -- Charles.
(NEWS BREAK)
DOBBS: Charles, thank you. Good evening, everyone.
President Bush will tonight announce that major combat operations in Iraq have ended. The president will make that announce from the deck of the USS Abraham Lincoln. That carrier on the last stages of its journey home from the war. Frank Buckley will have a live report from the decks of the Lincoln.
Rusty Dornin is a Naval Air Station Lemoore, home base of many of the Abraham Lincoln's fighter jets.
John King, who stayed behind at the White House today, will have details for us of the president's speech.
And Kyra Phillips will have an exclusive report on what it's like to fly in an F-18 fighter jet. There she is in the back seat strapping in.
We'll begin our coverage tonight with Frank Buckley aboard the Lincoln -- Frank.
FRANK BUCKLEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, a historic day here aboard the USS Abraham Lincoln as President Bush came aboard in a tactical aircraft, the first time, it's believed, that a sitting U.S. president has come aboard an aircraft carrier and landed in a tactical aircraft, taking a trap, that is, landing and hooking a cable with his tailhook, landing hitting the forewire as he came on the S-3 Viking. The S-3 Viking a mine -- or a submarine hunting aircraft also recently used to refuel other strike fighters when they would take off or when they returned from a mission, depending on their fuel state.
The president, after he landed in that S-3 Viking, then worked his way through a crowd of sailors and Marines, shaking hands and taking photos for quite sometime. The president in a very upbeat mood, and many of the sailors and Marines also in a very upbeat mood. The president taking several minutes to spend time with those young men and women aboard the aircraft carrier.
After that, he has been taking tours of the ship. He was up in the air boss office -- that's the person who runs the air show aboard the aircraft carrier. He also had an opportunity to stand on the super structure on what's called vulture's row and watch as a fly by of F-18s went overhead. The aircraft en route to Lemoore on the way home after nearly a 10-month deployment -- Lou.
DOBBS: Frank Buckley, thank you very much. Frank Buckley reporting live from the USS Lyndon where the president today, as you said, he looked like an alternatively commander in chief, rock star, movie star, and one of the guys.
Frank, did the president -- did the president have as much fun as he appeared to be having there?
BUCKLEY: Well, Lou, it certainly seemed as if he was having a ball. He was given an opportunity to sit in the co-pilot's seat. I suspect he gave himself that opportunity. He's the commander in chief in the co-pilot's seat of this S-3 aircraft.
As he was flying over, we were told that he would be given the opportunity to fly the aircraft. He's a former fighter pilot, as you know, in the Air National Guard. We don't know if he actually took the stick and flew a bit, but he was given that opportunity.
Clearly, he was a in an upbeat mood. Anyone who has flown aboard an aircraft, even on a COD, which is what we fly aboard, a C-2 Greyhound, a propeller-driven aircraft, can tell you it's a dynamic event. It's an event that you will always remember, and it's something that is a very exciting event to enjoy.
So, it appeared as though the president was really having a good time -- Lou.
DOBBS: Frank, I don't want to put you, in any way, on the spot. I don't know if you've had a chance to talk with the pilot who brought the president in, but he had to be amongst the most nervous people in the United States Navy today, if not the most nervous.
BUCKLEY: Well, his name is Skip Lucier (ph). He's the XO of the S-3 squadron that is attached to this aircraft carrier. We haven't had a chance to talk to him because it's our understanding that he turned around and flew back off and returned to North Island.
But we can tell you that aboard the aircraft carrier during the past couple of days, when it was known that this S-3 was going to be transporting the president among the air crews, there was a running joke that maybe he would be a (UNINTELLIGIBLE). That is, the plane would land and do a touch and go because he missed all four cables. So clearly, with that sort of pressure among the pilots, he must have been feeling it, but he made it without a problem, caught the forewire, brought the president in without having to be a (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
DOBBS: And, Frank, I noticed a very hearty, warm handshake between the president and the XO after that flight as they stepped out on that deck. Frank Buckley, thank you very much reporting from the USS Abraham Lincoln. Just really hours away from reaching home port -- three, at least San Diego. Home port, of course, Everett, Washington.
Three Navy fighter squadrons flew off the USS Abraham Lincoln earlier this afternoon heading back to the home base at Naval Air Station Lemoore in California. These fighter squadrons landing now at the naval air station, and our Kyra Phillips is flying in one of those F-18 Hornets. The carrier, its air wing, have been at sea for almost 10 months. That is the longest Naval deployment since the Vietnam war.
The carrier was deployed to support both the Afghan and Iraqi campaigns, and during the course of this deployment and in action both against the Afghanistan operation and against Saddam Hussein. The Lincoln launched a total of 16,500 aircraft sorties.
The picture you are looking at there, I believe, is Kyra Phillips strapping into the back seat of that F-18 earlier this afternoon, and Kyra is, I am told, in the air, and we have established contact.
Kyra, I know you had an exciting takeoff. How do things look from up there?
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, it's very fantastic. We are coming up on Lemoore right now. I'm in the middle of, let's see, one, two, three, four -- kind of in the -- next to -- a little under and next to four of the F-18s. I'm flying with the Stingers (UNINTELLIGIBLE), the fighter attack squadron. (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Operation Iraqi Freedom and, as you were saying, Operation Enduring Freedom and also OSW, Operation Southern Watch, three operations these guys carried out aboard the USS Abraham Lincoln during their 10-month deployment.
I can tell you I feel like I'm touching the wing of the F-18 next to me. It's just amazing watching the guys form, like, (UNINTELLIGIBLE) through the air in such a slow, perfectly matched formation.
Gosh, Lou, it's just hard to explain, but I'm just so glad that I'm shooting the pictures because, for the first time, viewers will be able to see what it's like to be a combat aviator and sit in the back seat and launch off a carrier just like they did during the war.
DOBBS: Well, Kyra, I don't that you even need words to explain, just the tone and the excitement in your voice is, I assure you, sufficiently eloquent. I can tell you are having the ride of your life. How -- I think I heard you say that you are now inside of the air station. We are right now showing our viewers pictures of the families of these pilots waiting for them at Lemoore. How far out are you now?
PHILLIPS: We're pretty much overhead joining in the formation, Lou. Very soon, you are going to be able to see the live pictures. I'm right smack in the middle of the three squadrons. You've got (UNINTELLIGIBLE) the Stingers on the right side as it's coming in. I'm not quite sure what pictures you can see. Off to my left -- pretty much in the middle -- off to my left (UNINTELLIGIBLE) the fighter attack squadron, the Eagles, that the F-18 (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Hornet Squadron. And then (UNINTELLIGIBLE) right behind me (UNINTELLIGIBLE) 25 fighter attack squadron (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
You know, these three squadrons, as you know, made a big difference during the operations they participated in. They were designed for traditional strike warfare, such as interdiction and closed air support, but they also were involved, of course, in the strike tactics. I guess they could say that during the war with the various missiles that these F-18s (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
Sorry, Lou, I'm trying to concentrate on shooting the video and be able to explain to you what I'm seeing. So, if I pause a little bit, I apologize.
DOBBS: Not at all, Kyra. I know also that you had a bet with the pilot about -- I'm going to try to phrase this somewhat delicately -- that you would remain well balanced and secure in your digestive tract throughout that flight. How have you done?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She's done pretty well so far. She still hasn't soiled herself or thrown up yet, Lou.
DOBBS: Well, so much for my delicacy, and we appreciate, on behalf of Kyra, our good colleague, our brave colleague, your kindness and gentleness in flying her in absolute comfort throughout, and we wish you a very happy landing and a happy return home.
Kyra Phillips flying in with the air wing of the USS Abraham Lincoln, just moments away from landing. We'll try to grab some pictures of that as the time approaches.
And we want to turn now to our colleague, Senior White House correspondent, John King, who remained in the comfort of the White House this evening while the president, his chief of staff, flew bravely aboard the USS Abraham Lincoln.
John King, the president making a very important speech from the carrier tonight. Tell us about it.
JOHN KING, SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, every picture we are seeing today, and every picture we will see tonight is carefully choreographed by this White House as a show of strength.
This is a president who we've seen on the deck already in Frank Buckley's report quite happy, surrounded by the troops who are coming home. From what the president will say is victory in Afghanistan and combat victory, although he will stress and be careful to say the war is not over in Iraq.
The president will stride across the deck of the Lincoln at 9:00 tonight to deliver the speech, and there is no secret to what he's trying to say to the world, that the United States has now twice used military force in what the president will say is an ongoing global war against terrorism and that the United States will not shy away from doing so again, if he believes it is necessary.
The president will stress to the American people that much work needs to be done still inside Iraq, although he will say major combat is over. The focus now is on security and reconstruction, but Mr. Bush will say that means U.S. troops have to stay for some time to come.
He will also link the war in Iraq to the broader global war against terrorism. Mr. Bush, according to excerpts by the White House, will say this, "The liberation of Iraq is a crucial advance in the campaign against terror. We have removed an ally of al Qaeda and cut off source of terrorist funding, and this much is certain, no terrorist network will gain weapons of mass destruction from the Iraqi regime because that regime is no more."
Now, Mr. Bush will stop short of saying the war is over for very clear reasons. If he says it is over, the military would be required to release prisoners of war. The Pentagon wants to interrogate them further, especially about weapons of mass destruction. If the president said the war is over, it also changes the legal rules under which you can go out looking for former members of the Saddam Hussein regime. Mr. Bush, of course, says and will say in the speech tonight that the search for those leaders continues.
So, Lou, a powerful political moment for this president. Many Democrats here in Washington complaining this is a political stunt and a photo op, but the White House says he chose the deck of this carrier to project forth as he speaks tonight to the American people saying combat is over, but more work to be done in Iraq and much more work done in the global war on terrorism.
One quick footnote, Lou, you're asking Frank about the president, the former pilot. He told reporters that for a short time, he did take the stick, and he did fly that plane, and the president, quote, "he enjoyed it very much."
DOBBS: And I can imagine the XO simply saying, the pilot of the aircraft, yes, sir.
John, as I was -- I think I should put irony in context here as I was chiding you a bit about the comfort of the White House where the president aboard that carrier. I am doing so from the comfort of the studio in New York City.
So, I do want to turn to the issue, as you say, I think irrespective of whether one looks at the partisan criticism or the partisan affirmation here, this president, whether in this stunt was trying to project power or whatever, he was certainly projecting for the first time that I have ever seen absolute fun in the experience. He was absolutely, to me at least, looking as though he was reveling in this as I've never seen him revel in anything.
KING: Lou, Democrat, Republican, conservative, liberal, set all that aside for a minute. Everyone close to this president says that his is truly appreciative, as the commander in chief, for the bravery and the risks that have been taken by the U.S. men and women in armed services, whether it be Afghanistan, whether it be Iraq, whether it be their families here in the United States who support them when they're gone, and this carrier has been gone for some ten months.
So, this president likes to be around the troops, number one, and certainly the joy of that ride, a little bit of history, and I'm jealous. Yes, I have two feet on the ground at the White House. I would very much like to be aboard the ship tonight, but the president, clearly as a human being, is having a good time.
DOBBS: Absolutely, and I suspect, John, knowing you, you'll find a way to get to play the next time. John King, thank you very much, our senior White House correspondent.
CNN will have, of course, live coverage of President Bush's speech to the nation from the USS Abraham Lincoln tonight. That our address begins at -- and our coverage -- at 9:00 Eastern, 6:00 Pacific, p.m., of course.
Turning now to those turning to those three squadrons of fighter jets from the Abraham Lincoln returning to Naval Air Station Lamoore in California. It's the home base, of course, of the Navy's elite pilots. They fly the F-18 Super Hornet fighter jets, and Rusty Dornin now at the naval air station with more on the story -- Rusty.
RUSTY DORNIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, there's more than 1,000 family and friends gathered here, and the only way to describe the kind of nervous anticipation is that, Lou, it's something you can almost feel.
But just to quickly show you, we're out here on the flight line, where the planes will be flying in very soon. You can see the flight crews out there that will be greeting each of the 35 jets in the three squadrons. They will be getting out of the jets, coming into formation, and coming in to greet the families.
Now, one of the families here is Erin Whitely (ph). Her husband, Richard, is with VFA 113. We have here Ava (ph) and her young son, Grayson (ph).
But, Erin, tell me. What has been the most difficult thing about this particular deployment? It was the longest, apparently, that any nuclear powered aircraft carrier has ever done.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right. Obviously, the length of the cruise was difficult. And it being wartime, of course, made us worry more. So, the length and the actual duty they were doing made it the hardest.
DORNIN: How did you juggle? I'm sure you were drawn to watch the pictures of what was going on in the bombing and knowing your husband may have been involved in that in Baghdad. What do you do with the two young children? How did you juggle that?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: At first I really wanted to watch, you know, just to know what was going on, but I didn't want him to watch. So that was a little difficult. And as time passed, you know, the desire to watch made you to nervous. So...
DORNIN: Speaking of nervous, are you a little nervous now?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I am now. Now that they're on their way, I'm a little nervous.
DORNIN: Well, we're expecting them to fly in, and as I said, they are going to be coming straight towards this hangar. And let me just show you little Grayson (ph) here. He's armed, as we all are, with our ear plugs, right, Grayson (ph)? Because 35 F-18s screaming overhead at 1,500 feet is enough to, literally, blow out your ear drums.
So, we're expecting them at any time at this point, Lou.
DOBBS: Well, Rusty, watch those ear drums, and I know it's a risk that those family members certainly eager to run. And we'll return to you as soon as those aircraft set down. Rusty Dornin from Lemoore Naval Air Station.
Still ahead here, our quote of the day comparing controversial American policy to one earlier of the French.
And Taliban and al Qaeda fighters in Afghanistan have gone on the attack. Pentagon correspondent, Barbara Starr, will have that report for us.
Also tonight, an in-depth look at the rebuilding in Afghanistan. A success? A failure? And what are the ways in which we can measure and determine whether it's a success or failure? Kitty Pilgrim will have that special report for us.
And the search for survivors in Turkey tonight after a devastating earthquake. We'll be going live to the scene.
All of that and more coming up. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld is in Afghanistan tonight. Today he declared that major combat activity in that country has ended. However, the secretary of defense cautioned that U.S. forces still face danger. Pentagon correspondent, Barbara Starr reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld stopped here briefly on his way home from Iraq. U.S. officials saying that the major combat is now over in Afghanistan.
But U.S. and Afghan officials are again pressing Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf, to put security troops on his side of the border. Sources say some of the post-September 11 emphasis by Pakistan has evaporated.
About 9,000 troops remain in Afghanistan, aggressively patrolling and operating around Kandahar and Khowst seizing suspects weapons and suspects. To improve security, the U.S. military is setting up reconstruction teams around the country. Teams of combat and reconstruction troops moving in, paving the way for a more secure environment and international aid. It's a model the U.S. hopes will eventually work in Iraq.
(on camera): But a year-and-a-half after the 9/11 attacks, one goal remains elusive. Osama bin laden is still unaccounted for.
Barbara Starr, CNN, Kabul.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Secretary Rumsfeld also said that Afghanistan is a period of stabilization and reconstruction. Afghanistan already has made progress in a number of areas since the fall of the Taliban. Kitty Pilgrim has the report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KITTY PILGRIM, CNNfn CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): There are signs of progress, and there are still plenty of problems. But a semblance of peaceful, normal life has resumed for the people of Afghanistan.
DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: For me to come back after many months now, and see the progress, to feel the energy in the street, to see the kiosks and people active and cars moving around and young children coming and going, people on the street, it is a measure of the progress.
PILGRIM: Two million Afghan refugees came home after the war, three million children back in school.
SUSAN RICE, BROOKINGS INSTITUTION: There is progress in that regard. Girls are back in school. Schools are reopening. In the United States, and organizations like UNICEF and others have played an important role in that.
PILGRIM: Still a problem, there's continuing sporadic fighting. Taliban activity in the south, warlords in rural areas.
JIM PHILLIPS, HERITAGE FOUNDATION: President Karzai has made great strides, but his authority still is limited to the capital of Kabul. And, there is still great instability in the countryside.
PILGRIM: Critics point out opium buying resumed, and that money goes not to the government, but to the local war lords. Warlords also skim revenues from taxes collected on goods moving across the border.
Afghan President Hamid Karzai reportedly complained about the warlord issue when he met with President Bush in February. Aid workers have been terrified to move much outside of Kabul because of fears of attack.
Nevertheless, the central government has been able to collect tens of millions of dollars worth of taxes on goods last year. There is a new currency and a new Afghan army in training. The U.S. military expects to train 9,000 Afghan soldiers by June, 2004.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Some experts believe the announcement of the end of combat is a signal to the rest of the world to chip in. The United States has been one of the few countries that made good on its promise of aid to Afghanistan -- Lou.
DOBBS: A lot of work of work to do yet.
PILGRIM: A lot to go.
DOBBS: Kitty, thank you very much. Kitty Pilgrim.
When we continue, chairman of the House Ways and Means Committee, Congressman Bill Thomas, will join me to talk about the latest efforts on Capitol Hill to create a tax cut.
Also, the latest own the search for survivors in Turkey. We'll have a live report from the scene of that devastating earthquake.
Also tonight, comparing today's American military dominance to the British empire. My next guest does exactly that in his book, "Empire." I'll be talking with Niall Ferguson coming right up.
And it brings new meaning to the phrase "crime family". The latest fallout from the Enron scandal hits one home doubly hard.
That story and more still ahead. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Rescuers in Turkey tonight are working through the rubble trying to find survivors. That after an earthquake, which measured 6.4 on the Richter scale, rocked the country's -- the southeastern part of that country -- overnight. As many as 87 people have been confirmed killed in the earthquake.
Gokhan Eren joins us now from Bengal, Turkey, with the very latest. Gokhan?
GOKHAN EREN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, just for the past three hours, it's been rather quiet. The family members have moved aside from the school rubble. They opened fire because -- they opened -- they lit fire around the area because in the evening, it does get cold here.
But just five minutes ago, an event happened that everybody was shocked with. Another live student was brought out of the rubble. And, people started rushing toward the school to try to identify whether it's their child. The family members of children who were studying at this school who still waiting to hear from their children, they rushed to the ambulance to see the face of the child. As some members -- some family members -- left here eased, soothed. Others continued to mourn and to pray, to see, to hear from their children.
Meanwhile, the rescue workers continuing in very difficult situation right now because in the last five minutes, the weather conditions changed. There's a very strong wind has risen. At the same time, it started raining. Rescue workers are saying that this is going to make their life more difficult.
Meanwhile, within the city of Bengal, the situation's not much different. Obviously, with the students being involved here, everybody is concentrating to this region, but within the city, there are many more state-run buildings, schools, hospitals that are in difficulty also. There's a police station, two schools, and the hospital has emptied out totally. Two buildings, four story with 16 homes in it, separately, are turned into rubble, also. Rescue works continuing in these regions, also, at this moment -- Lou.
DOBBS: Gokhan aftershocks, are they, at this point, are there any aftershocks? Can you describe that part of the situation?
EREN: According to the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) earthquake observation center, there has been over 100 aftershocks so far. One of these aftershocks as strong as 4.0 on the Richter scale. Though officials have declared that they expect aftershocks as strong as 5.0, but the aftershocks do continue.
That's why a lot of -- not a lot -- but everybody living in this town are literally out on the streets. The Red Crescent has distributed tents to these people who are spending the night outside. And, some of them did receive tents. Those who did not receive tents, people are going to spend the night outside on the streets tonight and who knows how long.
Meanwhile, just as an information, the tents including the tents, all the humanitarian aid goods, food goods that were brought to the area were originally brought to this region for possible humanitarian crisis in Iraq, which did not occur, and all that stuff, including the tents, has been brought to this due to the earthquake -- Lou. DOBBS: Gokhan, thank you very much. Gokhan Eren from Bengal, Turkey, where 87 people have died in that earthquake, as Gokhan has just reported. Rescuers working feverishly through the night there in very difficult circumstances trying to rescue as many as 70 students, children, who are feared buried in the rubble.
The Pledge of Allegiance could be headed for the highest court in the land, and the Justice Department -- well, if it has its way, it will be headed back into the classroom as well. We'll have that story coming up next.
And the global spread of the SARA virus intensifying. We'll have the latest for you on the deadly virus that has now infected almost 6,000 people around the world, most of them in China.
And my next guest says America is in denial about its role as a global empire. Niall Ferguson, professor of New York University, the author of the book, "Empire" will join me next.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWSROOM)
DOBBS: Charles, thank you.
The Pentagon moving ahead with plans to cut U.S. military forces in Germany after the war against Saddam Hussein. Tens of thousands of troops are likely to be redeployed to new bases in Eastern Europe.
Our Senior Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre has the story for us -- Jamie.
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SENIOR PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, the U.S. has more than a hundred thousand troops in Europe, and most of them are in Germany. That dates back to the Cold War when the U.S. was aligned to repel an invasion from the Soviet Union across the Folda Gap.
Now the Pentagon is in the midst of a wholesale realignment of its forces around the world, and part of the object is to lower the profile in countries that perhaps are uncomfortable having so many U.S. troops and move them to areas that are more anxious to host them and, also, perhaps, increase the flexibility of the U.S. military to move to places.
Among the bases -- among the countries being considered for possible bases are some of the new friends of the United States in Eastern Europe, specifically Kosovo where the U.S. already has troops. Romania and Bulgaria are among the countries that might see -- be hosting the U.S. troops in the future, as well as some of the new NATO members, such as Poland and Hungary.
The idea, the Pentagon insists, is not to punish countries that didn't support the U.S. during the war, such as Germany -- and France, for that matter -- but, instead, to simply take advantage of the new realities and spread it around a little bit.
In most cases, the presence of U.S. troops is fairly intrusive. For instance, in Seoul, South Korea, where a big base is right downtown in Seoul, the U.S. there would like to move some of the troops out into a rural area where they would be more away from the urban center, possibly a better strategic location and, at the same, perhaps reduce the number of troops overall.
It's something that's part of a worldwide review -- Lou.
DOBBS: Jamie, thank you very much.
Jamie McIntyre, our senior Pentagon correspondent.
Turning to -- now to tonight's poll question: How long do you think it will be necessary for U.S. troops to remain in Iraq -- one year, two years, three or more years? Cast your vote at cnn.com/moneyline. We'll bring you the preliminary results later in the broadcast.
Now the final results of yesterday's poll. The question: How optimistic are you about the prospect this time of resolving the Israeli-Palestinian conflict? Eleven percent of you said very optimistic. Thirty-one percent said somewhat. Fifty-eight percent, not at all.
House Republican leaders today said they will move a scaled-back version of the president's tax-cut plan to the floor next week. My next guest has proposed scaling back the president's plan to eliminate taxes on corporate dividends, at least the rate of that introduction of that cut in dividend taxes.
House Ways and Means Committee Chairman Bill Thomas joins us now.
Good to have you with us, Mr. Chairman.
REP. BILL THOMAS (R), HOUSE WAYS AND MEANS COMMITTEE CHAIRMAN: Good to be here, Lou. How are you?
DOBBS: I'm great.
You're in a dogfight over this tax cut. It looked like it was going to be somewhat simpler, didn't it?
THOMAS: Well, they never are.
It is unusual for the House and the Senate to have different numbers, but I think the important thing is the House has now agreed, after having passed the president's plan at $726 billion, to rethink the way we want to stimulate and grow the economy at a $550-billion level.
The irony is that, in the rethinking, at least those who do the modeling for economic purposes say that this new plan will have at least as much or a greater impact in creating jobs, about 600,000 to 700,000 by the end of 2004, and this plan will put about $200 billion into the economy, both into the hands of consumers and business to create more jobs in the same time period.
DOBBS: Congressman, one of the -- of course, one of the Houses that -- at issue here is across the Hill to the Senate and the Senate says $350 billion, amongst others, but, importantly so. Senator Grassley says, $350 billion is where we're at. What do you do?
THOMAS: Well, at the same time, Senator Grassley is out looking for what they call offsets so they can grow it more than $350 billion, and, ironically in the conversation I had with him the other day, he began thinking about how great a $200-billion offset would be. I reminded him that if he reached that number, that's the same as we have, $550 billion, and I look forward to reaching that same agreement.
So the original cut was $350 billion. They realized they can't have the stimulative growth impact at that number, and they're trying to grow the number. We await them eagerly to set up a program, which will stimulate the economy, but the real key here, Lou, is to do it as soon as possible. The longer we wait, the less chance we have to make the kind of changes that I think the economy needs.
DOBBS: And, Congressman, what you think is not only material but compellingly important in moving the president's plan through to whatever its final resolution is, but stepping back from it a bit, we' are now talking about $350 billion in tax cuts over a 10-year period.
We're talking about a $35-billion impact on what is an almost $11-trillion economy, and it really will not have, even by the most optimistic of judgments, much impact over the course of the next 12 months.
What -- where are we going to...
THOMAS: Actually, our impact -- Lou, our impact is greater than $50 billion in '03, and it's $200 billion between '03 and '04, and it does it in two different ways.
It brings the reduction of the tax cuts to the January 1, '03, period. We put money in the hands of consumers today, and that has been, as you well know, the sustainer of the economy.
But what we do with business in allowing them to accelerate depreciation and to reach back into previous years where they made a profit to cover today's losses, the net operating loss carryback, we, actually, put money in the hands of business.
So we do have the ability to impact at the new job level a $600,000 to $700,000 -- 600,000 to 700,000 new jobs and $200 billion into the economy. Some of these programs don't stretch over the full 10 years because they're designed to stimulate. Those that stretch over the full 10 years are designed to help with growth.
So it's a combination of both that produced the excellent results that we have with this package.
DOBBS: Congressman, final quick question. What is going to be the final compromise? When do we get it?
THOMAS: As the speaker said, we think we have already compromised. We started at $726 billion. We're down to $550 billion. The House will move through the Ways and Means Committee next week and off the floor a $550-billion proposal. We'll then set to work to figure out how to help the Senate solve the problem it's got itself into.
I believe the number will be a whole lot closer to $550 billion than the one the Senate started with.
DOBBS: Congressman Bill Thomas, you've got a record of pretty good forecasting, so we look forward to see how this one unfolds.
THOMAS: Well, a lot of hard work makes those forecasts come true.
DOBBS: It's amazing how lucky people get when they work, isn't it?
Congressman Bill Thomas.
THOMAS: Thank you, Lou.
DOBBS: Thank you very much. Appreciate it.
Today's quote of the day comes from Capitol Hill where that tax- cut battle is well under way, as you've just heard.
That quote is, "We have a major deficiency in our economic tax structure called double taxation of dividends. We tax them higher than anybody. We tax them higher than the French. I'm embarrassed."
That quote from Senator Don Nickles, the chairman of the Budget Committee in a new context.
We turn now our attention to Wall Street where it was a losing beginning to the month on Wall Street. The Dow fell nearly 26 points on what was weak economic news. The NASDAQ, however, up a bit. Christine Romans is here now and has more on the day's mixed performance. Modestly mixed. I guess we could put it that way, Christine?
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNNfn CORRESPONDENT: Modestly mixed. You're right.
If it weren't for retail and auto stocks, the Dow would have actually closed higher, and there were slightly more advancing stocks than decliners at the big board.
The mixed close comes after a strong April. Stock mutual funds saw the best inflows in a year in the month, more than $7 billion, and that's more money than went into bond funds.
Meanwhile, Freddie Mac reported mortgage rates Lou, near that 40- year low set in March. The 30-year mortgage average fell to 5.7 percent this week, down from last week, sharply lower than last year's average of almost 6.8 percent.
And, Lou, following up on a story we reported about a month ago, Al Jazeera reporters booted from the floor of the New York Stock Exchange. Now the Exchange has decided to allow Al Jazeera's reporters to broadcast from the trading floor effective Monday -- Lou.
DOBBS: Magnanimous in victory, I take it? What is the judgment of the NASDAQ? Al Jazeera wanted to go over there as well.
ROMANS: Well, they wanted to go over there when they couldn't get into the NYSE. Now that they're in the NYSE again, they're happy to leave that rest.
DOBBS: What did the Nasdaq say?
ROMANS: The Nasdaq has no comment on that.
DOBBS: I think that's interesting. We've got a split exchange situation here.
Christine, thank you very much.
Well, from the market to geopolitics, American military domination today is without question. It's being compared by some to the British empire of old. My guest tonight says that's not a negative comparison, and the United States, in fact, can learn from the British experience.
Niall Ferguson is the author of "Empire: The Rise and Demise of British World Order and the Lessons for Global Power." And he is professor at New York University, senior research fellow at Oxford.
And it is delightful to have you here.
NIALL FERGUSON, AUTHOR, "EMPIRE: THE RISE AND DEMISE OF BRITISH WORLD ORDER AND THE LESSONS FOR GLOBAL POWER": Nice to be on the show, Lou.
DOBBS: You're saying dirty words. In fact, you're selling books with the title "Empire." Americans cannot tolerate the concept of empire.
FERGUSON: Well, here, it's the E word. After all, you came into existence by throwing off British rule.
DOBBS: Proudly so.
FERGUSON: That's a -- it's a pretty hard sell to persuade Americans that there's anything they can learn from the last great Anglophone world empire. I mean part of the problem is just persuading them that they already have an empire to begin with.
DOBBS: Well, the British empire was -- at least in its early stages, it was race. It -- slavery abounded. It was totalitarian, at least in its colonies. That's not the stuff of which any American I know would want to emulate. FERGUSON: Well, I try to make it very clear in the book that there really is a tale of two empires here. The first empire was a smash-and-grab exercise. It involved slavery, as you rightly say, and ethnic cleansing, systematic stealing of people's land.
But then something amazing happens, and that is that, in the early 19th century, the British empire becomes the world's first liberal empire. That's to say it uses its enormous military force to free trade and economic growth, and that's the thing -- that's the empire that Americans can learn from.
DOBBS: I suspect that this -- there's also a transition phase in there where liberal was defined as not enslaving people, not killing them...
FERGUSON: Right.
DOBBS: ... not cleansing them ethnically.
FERGUSON: And the British empire, actually, fought against the slave trade and abolished slavery within its own territory while you guys carried on with it. It was, actually, bad luck for African- Americans that the American war of independence went the way it did.
DOBBS: Well, Niall, the last thing I want to do is get into a parochial argument over which is superior, that of the American tradition or the British.
FERGUSON: If it's liberalism you're after, the British got there quickly.
DOBBS: Oh, it's not liberalism I'm after at all. What I'm after is...
FERGUSON: How about free market? How about free market?
DOBBS: Oh, free markets, free people.
FERGUSON: Well, that...
DOBBS: I'm all for the...
FERGUSON: The free market was the thing that the British really exported to the rest of the world.
DOBBS: And it's really the issue in Iraq in reconstructing it.
FERGUSON: Right.
DOBBS: The fact is, as we look at this, and -- to me, it's noteworthy. The United States is engaged in almost 30 countries around the world, fighting radical Islamist terrorism. Our forces, our troops. Our intelligence agency as well.
We have troops stationed literally all over the world. It is by -- it is de facto an empire. Is that a positive or a negative for the world? Is it a positive or a negative for the United States?
FERGUSON: I think it can be positive for both, if there is a sustained commitment to reconstructing the market economy and the rule of law in these danger zones, these areas of failed states, like Iraq and Afghanistan.
And I think your poll this evening is very interesting. You ask the question one, two, three or more years, but, when Britain went into Iraq in 1917, proclaiming, of course, that we came to liberate the Iraqi people, we were there for 41 years in the end. It wasn't until 1958 that the British presence in Baghdad was terminated.
These things take time, and I think the American empire has really got to get its timeframe right. I think at the moment, expectations are far too unrealistically short, and the idea that we can all be home by Christmas from Baghdad is, I think, really part of the problem here.
DOBBS: And, of course, there's some Iranian ayatollahs and imams who would suggest that four weeks is quite a satisfactory term of presence in Iraq, thank you very much.
FERGUSON: Right.
DOBBS: The -- as you have pointed out, the president has said we'll be there until a representative government is in place and the economy in good order and not a day longer. That seems like that's rather a broad time period.
FERGUSON: But it's interesting that he uses the metric of days. That's not something that the British ever did, and it's also interesting that you say representative government and the economy. That's the wrong order.
What the British understood was that first you got the economy right, and to do that, you needed to get the rule of law in place, functioning courts and police, and maybe, after there had been a bit of time for civil society to grow, you could start thinking about elections.
But it was a gradual process. It wasn't something you could rush.
DOBBS: The foundation, as you say, economics. But I just assumed with our coalition partners that principally via the United Kingdom that we could do both in good order simultaneously, contemporaneously.
FERGUSON: If only it were possible. I think one of the lessons of recent American imperial history, if I can use that phrase, is that, if you rush to elections, it can very quickly go wrong.
DOBBS: I see no sign, do you, of a rush when it comes to Iraq at this point?
FERGUSON: I hope there's not going to be one, I must seriously say.
DOBBS: Niall Ferguson, thank you very much for being here.
FERGUSON: It's been a pleasure.
DOBBS: When we come back, one man's lofty ambitions to inspire humanity, in our thought of the day, and we'll share some of your thoughts.
Also tonight, Andy Fastow is one of the famous faces of the Enron collapse. Perhaps notorious faces is the better -- or apt description. Now he's bringing new meaning to the phrase "family man." Jan Hopkins will have the story.
We'll also be talking with Kyra Phillips after her exciting flight. This is not her. But this is an F-18 returns from the USS Abraham Lincoln at Lemoore Naval Air Station. Kyra Phillips is there. She has had the good fun of riding in the back seat of the -- that famous aircraft. We'll be talking with her shortly.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The Justice Department today charged another eight former Enron executives. One of them, the wife of former chief financial officer Andrew Fastow. And Mr. Fastow today received more charges of his own. He now has a total of 109 charges against him.
Jan Hopkins reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JAN HOPKINS, CNNfn CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Andrew Fastow came to the federal building in Houston to drop off his wife, Lea, a former assistant treasurer at Enron. She was charged in connection with the scheme the government says produced profits for them from Enron's windfarms.
Former Enron corporate treasurer Ben Glisan and former finance executive Dan Boyle were charged with insider trading, falsification of Enron's accounting lords, tax fraud, and self dealing. They allegedly worked with Fastow to make the company appear more successful than it was.
LARRY THOMPSON, DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL: Today's indictments are a significant milestone in our determined efforts to expose and punish the vast array of criminal conduct related to the collapse of Enron Corporation.
HOPKINS: The grand jury also returned a 218-count superseding indictment expanding charges in Enron's Internet division. Five more executives were charged with profiting from $186-million sales of Enron's stock when they knew the broadband business wasn't making money. LINDA THOMSEN, DEPUTY DIRECTOR OF SEC ENFORCEMENT: These defendants played roles in perpetuating the fairy tale that Enron was capable of spinning straw -- or more appropriately fiber -- into gold.
HOPKINS: The top guys at Enron, Ken Lay and Jeff Skilling, have not been indicted yet, but the investigation isn't over.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Enron task force is continuing to sift diligently through the rubble that was Enron piece by piece, scheme by scheme, and lie by lie.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HOPKINS: But investigators do not have access to thousands of documents held by Wall Street's ratings firm, S&P and Moody's. S&P's lawyer, Floyd Abrams, is fighting subpoenas for documents on First- Amendment grounds. The amendment protects reporters from producing materials gathered during research -- Lou.
DOBBS: Floyd Abrams was supposed to be here tonight to talk about trying to put the protection around a ratings agency, but he is...
HOPKINS: I think he's coming next week, though.
DOBBS: He is -- well, we haven't decided quite when he's coming or if he's coming, but appreciate the thought. Thank you.
Well, as Jan reported, the Department of Justice charged another eight Enron executives. Let's update our scoreboard.
Five of those working the company's Internet division. Former treasurer Ben Glisan, former finance executive Dan Boyle also indicted. Lea Fastow joined her husband, former CFO Andy Fastow. And the criminal scoreboard now: 15 Enron executives charged. Total number of charges in all of corporate America: 65. No one has been sent to jail. Five hundred fourteen days since Enron filed for bankruptcy.
And a reminder, our poll question tonight: How long do you think it will be necessary for U.S. troops to remain in Iraq -- one year, two years, or three years or more? Cast your vote at cnn.com/moneyline. We'll have the preliminary results just a bit later here in this broadcast.
Turning our attention quickly to space, today, the Sixth Annual Space Day celebration. The event marks the year's 100th anniversary of flight. It is also celebrating the future of aviation and space travel.
And our thought of the day in honor of Space Day, and we could think of no one more appropriate than the author of this quote.
"I believe that a successful lunar landing could, might inspire men around the world to believe that impossible goals were possible, that the hope for solutions to humanity's problems was not a joke." That quotation, Apollo 11 Flight Commander Neil Armstrong, the man who held the world spellbound when he took the first step on the moon. A pretty good guy as well.
Next, we'll have preliminary results of tonight's poll question.
Then, we'll share some of your thoughts.
Stay with us.
And we'll hear from our own Kyra Phillips.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The air wing of the USS Abraham Lincoln has landed. Importantly, aboard one of the F-18s, CNN's own ace, Kyra Phillips. Kyra joins us now.
How was the flight?
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: OK, Lou. I just lost IFB (ph). Hold on a second. I'm trying to get it fixed here. I'm hearing a lot of fuzziness.
DOBBS: Kyra?
PHILLIPS: I've just..
DOBBS: Can you hear me?
PHILLIPS: OK. I'm -- I'm trying. There. OK. I'm -- I hear you a little bit, Lou. Tell me what your question is.
DOBBS: Well, Kyra, I was just thinking since you're our own CNN ace, I just wanted to find out how the flight, how things are going there for you. I know it had to be a rush.
PHILLIPS: I can -- I can barely hear you, but I think you wanted to know how the flight went and if it was a rush. Absolutely. It was absolutely incredible, Lou.
All three squadrons -- I just -- I have never seen something so amazing. Just being right there on the edge and below and on top of 32 aircraft perfectly -- in just perfect formation. All three of the squadrons. I mean it was flawless, and how they -- I even felt it with my pilot as we got close to the squadrons -- trying to keep it real tight.
DOBBS: Kyra?
PHILLIPS: Yes, Lou?
DOBBS: We're out of time. What was the name of your -- what's the name of your pilot?
PHILLIPS: Lieutenant Ken Rogers (ph). He's part of the Stinger...
DOBBS: Well, you tell...
PHILLIPS: ... squadron.
DOBBS: Well, you tell Lieutenant Rogers (ph) he did the best job of editing one of my questions anyone's ever done. We're proud of you, Kyra. You're our ace.
Kyra Phillips from LeMoore.
Thank you very much.
PHILLIPS: All right. Thanks, Lou.
DOBBS: We want to turn quickly, give you the results of our poll question tonight. How long do you think it will be necessary for U.S. troops to remain in Iraq? Eleven percent said a year. Twenty percent said two. Sixty-nine percent said three years or more.
And now a quick look at your thoughts.
Bob of Pittsburgh wrote in to say, "With all of the war coverage, we seem to have lost sight of issues that continue to be important to the American people, like corporate corruption. How about an Enron update?"
Bob, we do one every night. And, as you've just heard, Enron is now a priority of the Department of Justice.
We are just about out of time, and so what I want to say is we'll have more of your thoughts tomorrow evening. We thank you for being with us. For all of us here, good night from New York City.
And Paula Zahn coming right up.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Justice Department Charges 8 More Enron Executives>
|
