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CNN LOU DOBBS MONEYLINE
At Least 35 Dead from Midwest Tornadoes
Aired May 5, 2003 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, HOST: Wolf, thank you very much. And good evening, everyone.
Tonight, four states are counting the costs of a wave of tornadoes that's devastated communities across the Midwest and part of the South. Thirty-five people have been killed by those storms. The storms destroyed entire neighborhoods and blew a freight train off the tracks. Ed Lavandera will report live from one of the hardest hit communities.
And we'll talk with legendary storm chaser and meteorologist, Professor Howard Bluestein.
President Bush today took his argument for big tax cuts directly to the voters. He told an audience in Little Rock, Arkansas, today that Congress is moving too slowly to approve his plan.
The chairman of the Senate Finance Committee, Senator Chuck Grassley, will be here to tell us why Congress isn't moving faster.
The United States says today it expects the nucleus of a new Iraqi government to be in place by the middle of this month.
Editor and author, Fareed Zakaria, of "Newsweek" will be here to tell us how a lasting democratic government can be built in Iraq.
Tonight, at least 35 people have been killed by those massive tornadoes that hit in four states. Emergency workers said more than 80 tornadoes swept through the Midwest and South last night. Officials said such an outbreak is extremely rare. Fifteen people were killed in Missouri, 13 others in Tennessee, seven people were killed in Kansas.
There was also severe damage in Arkansas, but no deaths reported. Ed Lavandera reports from Gladstone Missouri, a suburb of Kansas City.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is going to be incredible, you guys! This is going to be incredible!
ED LAVANDERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): For about 30 minutes, a tornado barreled from Kansas into Missouri Sunday afternoon. Warren Hussler (ph) watched the stormy weather from his garage in a Kansas City, Missouri, suburb. He had no idea that a tornado was headed his way, but he says in a matter of seconds, the weather changed dramatically, and that tornado destroyed his home. ROBERT ADAIR, RESIDENT: We got in the basement about 30 seconds before it actually took the house, and some stuff flew downstairs and knocked open the door that was in the basement, and all I saw was daylight, so I knew it was gone.
LAVANDERA: A state of emergency has been declared in Missouri, and seven Kansas counties have been declared disaster areas. There is no clear count of just how many tornadoes touched the ground, but there were more than 80 reported sightings. Cleanup will take weeks and the people say they'll need help.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh my God. What are we going to do?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Even part of the foundation is gone. It's just completely flat. So, there was nothing left of it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We went down in the basement, and it just tore the roof off and went right through that way. It's amazing, though, how many -- you have people, who you don't even know, showing up to help you unload stuff and clean up. It's just great the way this community's helping.
LAVANDERA: After hitting Kansas and Missouri, the storm system moved east into Tennessee leaving more punishing damage. Madison and Canon counties appear to be some of the hardest hit in that state, and one day after the storms hit, some residents are struggling to deal with what's happened.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I couldn't believe it. I couldn't believe it, and when I got down here and started down here, I said I wasn't going to be too upset, but of course, I was. It was hard. Have to just start over.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
LAVANDERA: And we're now in Kansas City, Missouri. This is Gladstone, a suburb of Kansas City, Missouri, and this is one of the hardest hit areas in this metropolitan area, and this is where that tornado at the beginning of the piece you saw there, Lou, with Warren Hussler. His home is just around the corner down the street.
As you can see, many residents have been spending the day cleaning up all of the debris. The debris you see right here is a small fraction of what has been moved out of this neighborhood over the last several hours. There's still much -- a lot of work to be done here, and residents say they will take several weeks before their lives get back to normal here. Lou?
DOBBS: Ed, thank you very much. Just extraordinary devastation. Ed Lavandera reporting from Gladstone, Missouri.
Meteorologists tonight say another violent storm system is headed for the same areas hit by last night's tornadoes. Five more tornadoes have already hit the region today, but there were no serious injuries or damages. Forecasters are also warning about the possibility of severe thunderstorms tonight. A curfew tonight is in force in some areas of Tennessee, as officials there work hard to restore power and other essential services.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAN VAUGHN, TENNESSEE EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT OFFICE: We have a red zone around the hospitals to restore power to them first because that's where our life safety is at, and then we'll work out from there as the needs -- we have a tremendous job of rebuilding the power system in Jackson and Madison County.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: Those tornadoes struck with little or no warning. Here now the story of what happened in words of some of the people on the scene.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Here comes the tornado! Coming down the highway! Here it comes! It's a very killer tornado!
DICK MAINIE, FEMA REGIONAL DIRECTOR: This is a huge, huge outbreak. Once in a while, you'll get, like, two or maybe three super cells with very big tornadoes, but numbers like these are extremely rare.
THOMAS MAJORS, COUNCILMAN, PIERCE CITY, MISSOURI: We have an antique shops, and, oh, the pharmacy, and the grocery store is completely gone. And it just leveled all the -- pretty much took the tops off of everything. It caved all the walls in and everything.
JACK GOODMAN, MISSOURI STATE HOUSE: It happened so quickly that, in fact, a lot of people were on the ground and in the building thinking that it was not an imminent danger, and all of a sudden, the tornado actually appeared, and people were trying to take cover all at once, and it was -- it was just a very quick event.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everybody OK, Dad?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They're fine, yes. That's what matters.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I couldn't believe it. I couldn't believe it. And then when I got down here and started down here, I said I wasn't going to too upset but, of course, I was. It was hard. Have to just start over.
BOB HOLDEN, GOVERNOR (D), MISSOURI: I was talking to some children and some families, and they were holding on to the doors to make sure the doors wouldn't fly off, and that was about the only structure left of the some of these houses. You drive down through here, and looks like the tornado just picked out the heart of the cities and took the heart right out, but they didn't take the heart. The heart will be back here.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: As we reported, 35 people killed in these tornadoes.
May 4th now ranks as one of the deadliest days from tornadoes in the past six years. May 3rd, 1999, 47 people killed in a series of tornadoes in Texas, Oklahoma, and Kansas; 42 were killed by twisters in February, 1998, in central Florida. And later that year, 41 people were killed in Alabama and Georgia. Last November, a series of tornadoes in five states killed 36 people. But the deadliest tornadoes of all time in this country touched down in March of 1925. Six hundred eighty-nine people were killed in Missouri, Illinois and Indiana.
President Bush today offered his condolences to the victims of those tornadoes. President Bush made his comments during a speech in Little Rock, Arkansas. Most of the speech focused on the economy and calls for Congress to back his plan for big tax cuts. Senior White House correspondent John king has the story. John?
JOHN KING, SR. WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: And Lou, the President appealing for help as the tax cut debate enters a key week in the U.S. Congress. You mentioned Little Rock, Arkansas. The President stopping there on his way back from Crawford, Texas. Both of that state's senators are Democrats, Mark Prior and Blanche Lincoln.
Lincoln, Senator Lincoln, is possibly -- she says she supports some of what the President wants, but she doesn't like the a center piece of the Bush proposal, the dividend tax cut. Senator Pryor says he thinks President Bush is asking for way too big of a tax cut at this moment.
This speech an example of the President trying to translate his wartime, post-war in Iraq popularity into progress on the domestic front. Both the House and Senate acting this week to write tax cut proposals that are different from what the President wants. Mr. Bush saying he will lobby the Congress, but also appealing directly to the citizens of Arkansas and the American people, to pick up the phone.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It's time for them to move. The debate is started in Washington, D.C. The message I hope you send is the more tax relief, the more work is going to be available for your fellow citizens. I would hope you'd call members of your congressional delegation to let them know what you think. Let them know your opinion. Democracy can work, particularly when a lot of people get on the phone by e-mail and just let them know what's on your mind.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: The House, of course, working on a tax cut of about $550 billion. It would lower the dividend tax, not eliminate it like the President wants. The Senate tax cut bill that will be introduced in the Finance Committee tomorrow is $350 billion. less than half of what the President wanted initially. The President is trying to do his best to get as big a tax cut as possible.
You see him returning here to the White House after the speech in Little Rock, Arkansas. He has a speech here in Washington to tax cutting advocates tomorrow.
Vice President Cheney has been working the phones as well, and the bipartisan leaders of Congress here for breakfast on Thursday morning, all part of the President's effort, Lou, to get as big a tax cut as he can this year. And then don't look for the debate to go away. Look for the President to propose even more tax cuts heading into his re-election year next year. Lou?
DOBBS: John, is there a sense there that more than $350 billion can be won in the Senate?
KING: In the Senate? Probably not in the first round. They would hope to get a little more than $350 billion. They expect, though, the Senate will do $350 billion. The House will do $550 billion, and they will have to boost it up, if they can, when the two bodies go to a conference committee.
It is possible to tweak a little bit more out, but Senator Grassley cut a deal. He says $350 billion is the limit for now. That does not mean they can't boost it up a little later or perhaps some amendments on the floors, but the White House hopes to raise it beyond 350 really is in the Conference Committee.
DOBBS: John, thank you very much. And as you know, we will be talking with the senator later in this broadcast. John King, our senior White House correspondent. Thank you, John.
Turning now to Iraq, where progress is being made, one of the top women of Saddam Hussein's regime is now in U.S. custody. The woman, known as Mrs. Anthrax, is accused of being in charge of Iraq's biowarfare program. She is the five of hearts in the deck of cards handed out to coalition troops and number 53 on the list of most wanted members of the former regime.
The men in charge of post-war Iraq today said as many as nine Iraqis will lead that country's interim government. General Jay Garner said the new Iraqi leadership should begin to take shape by the middle of this month. General Garner also said Iraq's recovery is going well, but he said United Nations' sanctions are causing delays. Kitty Pilgrim reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KITTY PILGRIM, CNNfn CORRESPONDENT (voice over): In downtown Baghdad, there are gas lines, gas lines in a country with the second largest oil reserves in the world.
WILLIAM MOOMAW, THE FLETCHER SCHOOL, TUFTS UNIVERSITY: Because of the sanctions, Iraq was not able to upgrade and modernize much of their oil equipment and refineries over the years, and if we're expecting Iraqi oil production to resume to any kind of anticipated levels, they will definitely need the importation of new equipment. PILGRIM: Jay Garner, Iraq's U.S. administrator, today worried U.N. sanctions would slow reconstruction. Iraq needs thousands of items to rebuild. Some equipment that have military and civilian use are reviewed and restricted. The medical equipment, electronics, chemicals, computer parts, some industrial products needed in rebuilding.
Bechtel Corporation has a $680 million contract to rebuild infrastructure in Iraq. So far, it says the work has not been impeded by sanctions, but they also say they would like some clarity on the issue.
Money is also being held up by the U.N. restrictions. Some $10 billion is dedicated by the U.N. for humanitarian needs in Iraq, and $3.2 billion more is in escrow to potentially help in the rebuilding effort. It may be held by the U.N. until sanctions are lifted and it can be turned over to an Iraqi government.
Russia's Prime Minister, Vladimir Putin meeting with the Prime Minister Blair said last week sanctions should only be lifted by U.N if there are no suspicion of weapons of mass destruction. Some disagree.
DAVID PHILLIPS, STATE DEPARTMENT ADVISOR: Sanctions were imposed to deal with Saddam Hussein's regime and to keep him from acquiring the means to pay for weapons of mass destruction. The regime is gone. It's time to move on. Lift the sanctions and let the Iraqi people benefit from the country's oil wealth.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: The United States is expected to put forward a resolution to the Security Council. It's not done so yet. Now, the deadline for lifting the sanctions is June 3rd, nearly a month away. Lou?
DOBBS: The United Nations continues to block.
PILGRIM: It's debated. But isn't it always?
DOBBS: It seems to be one and the same. Kitty, thank you very much. Kitty Pilgrim.
Coming up next here, my next guest says the Bush administration needs the help of international institutions to succeed in the rebuilding of Iraq. Fareed Zakaria, "Newsweek" columnist, will be joining me.
And the fight for tax cuts splitting Capitol Hill, dividing some colleagues on the same side of the aisle. Senate Finance Committee Chairman Chuck Grassley is among those trying to shepherd the cats toward a resolution. He's at the center of the debate. He'll be a big part of the solution and joins us next.
Also, racing toward trouble. I'll talk with a legendary storm chaser who makes a career tracking deadly storms like the ones that just ravaged the Midwest. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: My next guest says the United States does not seem as ambitious with its post-war plans in Iraq as it was with its war plans. Fareed Zakaria is a columnist for "Newsweek" magazine. He is also the editor. He is also the author of "The Future of Freedom: Illiberal Democracy at Home and Abroad". It is good to have you here, Fareed.
FAREED ZAKARIA, EDITOR, "NEWSWEEK": Thank you, Lou.
DOBBS: How's the book doing?
ZAKARIA: Well next Sunday, it will be number four on "The New York Times" nonfiction list. So, I'm crossing my fingers and can't complain.
DOBBS: "The Future of Freedom". All right, that's a great title and a terrific book, and so I wish you well with it. It sounds like you are doing pretty well with it.
ZAKARIA: Thank you.
DOBBS: How well is the United States doing in the rebuilding of Iraq in the little over three weeks that the United States has had to much?
ZAKARIA: Well, we're doing pretty well in the sense of restoring basic services. I think Garner is a very good man and is doing a good job.
I think we need to start thinking, though, a little bit more ambitiously. The point is not simply to hand over power to the Iraqis. Let's be honest. The point is to achieve a transformation of Iraq, to make it a somewhat democratic, somewhat moderate government, and that's not going to just happen by handing over power to the Iraqis. That requires a political transformation.
DOBBS: A political transformation that provides for stability. It provides for something that is alien to the region. And that is true representation.
ZAKARIA: Alien to the region and, frankly, alien to a lot of the developing world. And so, what you have to put in place is the institutions that produce liberty, the institutions that produce limited government, the institutions that is produce moderate politics, and that's...
DOBBS: A climate of liberalism what you're saying?
ZAKARIA: I'd say exactly. You're quoting from my book, and I bless you for it. What you have to do is to figure out a way of power sharing among these various communities. What to do about the oil, which has tended to be such a corrupting force in most of these countries. How do you establish an independent court system? These are big decisions, and I think if we just figure that we hand over power to a bunch of Shi'ite mullahs and it's all going to work out all right, we might be sadly disappointed.
DOBBS: Why is there such an uneven set of expectations about what the Bush administration could and should do in Iraq? My gosh, it's been three weeks since Baghdad fell. And there's been terrific criticism of the administration for not doing this or that. How can these expectations be better managed? How can the goals be better communicated?
ZAKARIA: Well, it's a tough problem for the Bush administration because you can't go in there and say, look, we're going to do all this stuff because that invites the charge of American imperialism. So, very wisely, they're probably saying less than they intend to do, but there's a danger if you say very little. You invite people in Iraq to think these guys are out of there tomorrow. You've already begun to see in Iraq the political contestation begin. The people saying, we're going to succeed the Americans, and I think we want...
DOBBS: But that's healthy, isn't it?
ZAKARIA: Well, it is healthy as long as people realize it's not going to happen anytime soon. Right now we're in the phase of building institutions, figuring out what system of government. Let's get to the raw political contests a little later.
DOBBS: The U.N., as Kitty Pilgrim just reported, still intractable on the issue of lifting sanctions. Kofi Annan, the secretary general made, has made it clear he would like to administer that program, and -- I won't say in perpetuity -- but certainly beyond June 3rd. What is the proper resolution there?
ZAKARIA: Oh, I think they should lift it, of course, but I do think that in phase one, the United States is going to have to be centrally involved. That is what's going on now.
But in phase two, at some point, we'll want the multilateralize this process and internationalize it simply because we are not going to stay in Iraq for three, four, five, six years.
DOBBS: Poland, the United kingdom and the United States, that's a big...
ZAKARIA: Militarily, that makes perfect sense. The question is politically, administratively, humanitarian aid wise. Do we want to be there seven years from there and be the target? Or do we want to try to devolve this to a more multilateral process?
DOBBS: Fareed, is there also not a peculiar sort of contest now between pre-war expectations and an assessments and new realities? It seems, to me at least, that the Bush administration has begun a new initiative, one that sort of supercedes previous thoughts about the region and suggests there is going to be true exportation of U.S. values, American values, Democratic values. Anything to do that. ZAKARIA: Well, I hope so because I think that the danger here is that we shrink and that we say, oh, people are going to call this imperialism. You know, they called it imperialism in Japan and Germany. They called it imperialism in South Korea and Taiwan when we helped these regimes.
The key to remember is, if we don't get ambitious now, what we're going to be left with is politics as usual in the Middle East, which means thugs, dictators and Islamic fundamentalists.
DOBBS: We pass. Fareed Zakaria, thank you very much, and the book is, "The Future of Freedom."
ZAKARIA: Thank you, Lou.
DOBBS: Thanks, Fareed, good to have you here.
When we continue, it has been 50 years since the red scare. Today, unprecedented access to transcripts of secret hearings held by Senator Joe McCarthy. Can you imagine? Fifty years under seal. Jonathan Karl will report.
Then Senator Chuck Grassley will be here to break down the sticking points in a battle over tax cuts. How important the sticking points? How important the tax cut? We'll find out.
And in China, 10,000 more people are quarantined because of the deadly SARS virus.
We'll have the very latest on that and a great deal more coming right up. Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The Senate today released thousands of pages of documents tied to the anticommunist crusade of Senator Joseph McCarthy. Those papers have been sealed for decades, and they reveal much of McCarthy's treatment of suspected communists in closed Senate hearings. Jonathan Karl has the report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In Washington, the press rushes the meeting room of the Senate Investigating Subcommittee.
JONATHAN KARL, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice over): It's been 50 years since Senator Joe McCarthy conducted his crusade to root out communists from the highest levels of government in American society.
SENATOR JOSEPH MCCARTHY: Another Fifth-Amendment communist was finally dug out of the dark recesses and exposed to public view.
KARL: But while millions watched those Congressional hearings unfold, there was a side to McCarthy's inquisition the public has never seen until now. Three hundred and ninety-five Americans were interrogated in closed, secret hearings. They included the ordinary, the famous, and some who wore the uniform of the U.S. military. CNN got an exclusive look at the transcripts of those secret hearings which have been under seal for half a century.
DAVID OSHINSKY, MCCARTHY BIOGRAPHER: What we really have never had in the past is Joe McCarthy in private surrounded by his henchmen running an one-man operation in which hundreds of witnesses are being interrogated.
KARL (on camera): McCarthy's public hearings took place before the TV cameras on Capitol Hill, but many of his secret hearings took place deep within the recesses of this federal courthouse in New York City.
(voice over): A man suspended by from the Army Signal Corps simply because his mother had been a communist was grilled by McCarthy. "Well, did you ever ask her if she was a communist", McCarthy demanded. "No, Sir." "When you went to see her, weren't you curious? If somebody told me my mother was a communist, I'd get on the phone and say, mother, is this true?"
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KARL: One of the more interesting confrontations in these secret transcripts is a confrontation between Senator McCarthy and Aaron Copeland, who was the most well-known composer in America at the time. At this point, in 1953, McCarthy accuses Copeland of having, quote, one of the most -- one of the longest communist front records of anyone we have had here.
Copeland then goes on to say that he is not a political thinker, but he is somebody who spends his days writing ballads and concertos and that, sure, he may have dealt with musicians who may have been communists, but it was never on a political level. It was simply music.
Very fast in the confrontation, Lou. What's interesting is Copeland was not invited back to testify in public session, so this is the first time we have ever seen his confrontation with Joe McCarthy.
DOBBS: You know, Jonathan, what is remarkable, to me at least, is that these hearings could have been conducted in this country, the United States, at all. But almost perhaps more remarkable is the fact that, in this country, that documents like this, records of history can be sealed for 50 years from the eyes of the American people. How in the world is this possible?
KARL: It's really astounding. The reason why they did this is because you had not only the transcripts, but you also had all the personnel records of those people that were brought before the committee. They didn't want it released. They didn't want to damage the reputations of people that were brought before the committee. But it was kept under 50 years in the national archives. The only person that was able to go through these and see these in advance was the Senate historian, who was going through the onion skin transcripts for several years putting this thing together before it was finally put out before the public.
But, yes, Lou. For 50 years, nobody saw this.
DOBBS: Appalling acts and an appalling restriction on access, as well. Jonathan Karl, thank you very much.
Let's turn to our thought of the day. It comes from one of the framers of the Constitution who said, "The U.S. Constitution doesn't guarantee happiness, only the pursuit of it. You have to catch up with it yourself." That was Benjamin Franklin, and before you write us about it, we are aware that the line correctly comes from the Declaration of Independence, but as Mr. Franklin authored both, he's entitled to some sweeping transposition.
When we continue, the race is on in the battle for tax cuts. Peter Viles will report on the key players involved and the contest of philosophy and politics.
And Senator Chuck Grassley, Republican of Iowa, is one of them, chairing the Senate Finance Committee. He is our next guest.
And gasoline prices once again falling. But if you drive an SUV, you could be looking at a very expensive time at the pump. We'll tell you why.
And he's been chasing down deadly storms for nearly three decades. He's a legend. He's a storm chaser. Professor Howard Bluestein is my guest next. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWSBREAK)
DOBBS: Arthel, thank you very much. Weather forecasters today warned that parts of the Midwest and south are still at risk for tornadoes and severe thunderstorms. More than 80 tornadoes have hit parts of Kansas, Missouri and Tennessee. They killed at least 35 people.
My next guest has been chasing tornadoes since 1976. Howard Bluestein has seen more than 100 funnel clouds. Saturday he was collecting data in Tornado Alley ahead of this latest storm system. Howard Bluestein is professor of meteorology at the University of Oklahoma and joins us tonight from Oklahoma City, professor good to have you with us.
HOWARD BLUESTEIN, PROF., UNIV. OF OKLAHOMA: Good to be here.
DOBBS: Thirty-five people dead, a very large number of storms in the system. This, I'm told, ranks the worst in some six years. Is this the onset of severe weather? Is there anything to be derived from this system? BLUESTEIN: Well, this was an incredibly intense system and the jet stream is rather far south and very intense for this time of the year, and I think over the next week to ten days we may get to see more episodes of severe weather in the southern part of the United States.
DOBBS: Why - what causes this sort of break out of a system of tornadoes like this?
BLUESTEIN: Well, the outbreaks tend to occur when the jet stream is very strong and there's a very powerful upper level system. The winds change direction with height, the wind and speed changes with height. The wind shear is very strong. We also have a lot of low level moisture and the temperature decreases very rapidly with height.
And when this occurs over a very broad area, over a good portion of the Midwest and the southern plains, almost any storm that forms within this area has the potential for producing a large tornado or more.
DOBBS: Professor, are we better now at predicting these storms?
BLUESTEIN: Yes. I think that the numerical models, the computer models, are a lot better than they were 30 years ago certainly. We were able to see a number of days in advance that there was a possibility of having a large tornado outbreak.
In addition, the country is mostly covered by a network of Doppler radars that the National Weather Service runs and these radars are able to sense circulations within the thunderstorms, and from those circulations, warnings up to perhaps half an hour in advance can be given.
DOBBS: You've been chasing these storms for some time. What is it like being that close to these deadly storms?
BLUESTEIN: Well, it's quite a feeling. When we're up close to a tornado, we're usually focused on collecting our data, so we're rather dispassionate I think, and then when it's all over with we digest what's happening a little bit better.
DOBBS: I can't imagine myself, professor, being dispassionate in that proximity to a storm like that. Have you had any close calls?
BLUESTEIN: No. We usually try to stay within one or two miles of the tornado and that's usually far enough that we're not in the damage path or we're not really in much danger of having debris fall on top of us.
DOBBS: Give us your best forecast, if you will your best prediction as to what we can expect over the next several months in the way of tornadoes.
BLUESTEIN: I can't forecast the next several months but over the next week to ten days the pattern is favorable for more tornadoes in the United States. DOBBS: Professor Howard Bluestein we thank you very much for joining us from the University of Oklahoma.
BLUESTEIN: Thank you.
DOBBS: President Bush today encouraged Americans to call their congressmen and women to voice their support for his tax cut plan. Debate about that plan is certainly widespread and intense, even among the top economists in the country.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN RYDING, BEAR STEARNS: If you cut the tax rate on dividends, companies will pay out more dividends. The stock market would respond positively to that higher after tax cash flow and the economy would respond.
JOHN LIPSKY, J.P. MORGAN CHASE: The advancement of the already enacted income tax cuts those are going to certainly boost the budget deficit in the next year or so. Now, they're also almost certainly going to have a positive impact on household spending.
ETHAN HARRIS, LEHMAN BROTHERS: The tax cuts are aimed at well- to-do individuals and these people probably take the tax cut and save most of it, so it doesn't do a lot to kind of bring immediate kind of jumpstart to the economy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: The debate over the size of the tax cut, whether it will work, all of this unusual in a number of ways. First, much of this debate now is taking place within one political party and that party happens to be going against the advice of a very popular president, Peter Viles now on the players in the debate.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PETER VILES, CNNfn CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The tax cut debate has highlighted a novel concept, diversity in the Republican Party. There are the moderate holdouts fearful of big deficits.
Olympia Snowe of Maine, George Voinovich of Ohio, they pulled a power play, cut the president's tax cut in half in the Senate to $350 billion. They've since been hammered by the true believers in supply side economics. This TV commercial likens them to the president of France.
ANNOUNCER: But some so-called Republicans, like Olympia Snowe, stand in the way.
VILES: The consensus builders, Finance Chairman Chuck Grassley and rookie Senator Majority Leader Bill Frist went along with the $350 billion figure and that was a big rookie mistake according to the otherwise mild-mannered House Speaker Dennis Hastert.
REP. DENNIS HASTERT, (R), HOUSE SPEAKER: You know what, I am tired of trying to fit the Senate. You know we have moved in the House. We have done what the president says. We have compromised from $726 down to $550, and if the Senate can't get its work done that's too bad.
VILES: Key player in the House, the rewrite man, Bill Thomas of California. He rewrote the president's plan adding a capital gains tax cut. The president's Treasury Secretary John Snow is doing his best in the role of salesman but folks in Washington remember Snow's earlier role as a deficit hawk.
Alan Greenspan's not helping the president much. He says the economy will probably recover without another big tax cut. And, Warren Buffett is a Democrat but if you're worth $36 billion even Republicans listen sometimes and Buffett this weekend said the Bush plan, "screams of injustice."
(END VIDEOTAPE)
VILES: But the key player in all this, the president himself, whose popularity very high right now and he proved during the mid-term elections this is not a president who stores up political capital. He goes out and puts it to work - Lou.
DOBBS: Pete, thank you very much, Peter Viles.
At the center of this debate within the Republican Party Senate Finance Committee Chairman Chuck Grassley of Iowa, Senator Grassley will present his $350 billion tax cut proposal tomorrow. It's less than half the size of the president's original plan. The Senator joins us now from Capitol Hill, Senator Grassley good to have you with us.
SEN. CHARLES GRASSLEY (R-IA), CHAIRMAN, FINANCE CMTE.: Glad to be with you, Lou.
DOBBS: I understand that you've just met with the Republican conference about a plan that you're going to advance. What can you tell us about that?
GRASSLEY: Well, first of all, it will be somewhat bigger than $350 billion because under the Snowe-Voinovich policy that we're operating under, it can be bigger if offset dollar for dollar and we will have some offsets so it will be much bigger than 350. The exact figure I'll release tomorrow.
Within that we're obviously going to have a very good income tax policy taking the 2001 tax policy that was phased in this decade, bring that forward to January 1, 2003, and so we'll reduce marginal tax rates, increase the child credit, things of that nature. We're also...
DOBBS: How about the...
GRASSLEY: We're also going to be very - I'm sorry, I shouldn't have interrupted you.
DOBBS: No, I shouldn't have interrupted you, Senator. Go ahead.
GRASSLEY: OK. Well, I think you were going to ask about the dividend thing.
DOBBS: Exactly.
GRASSLEY: We're going to have a very aggressive dividend part of our package tomorrow and it won't be exactly the way the president had it but I think it will be very, very aggressive and will send a strong signal that we in the majority party feel that there's a great deal of anxiety about the economy. We want to create jobs and we want to make sure that workers' retirement plans, 401(k)s, things of that nature are stronger and make up for some of the loss that happened after 2001.
DOBBS: Senator, how comfortable are you, an $11 trillion economy, that we're going to see this tax cut, let's say it's in a size as you suggest considerably about $350 billion with offsets, how many jobs will that create? How much growth do you think it will generate within the course of the next, oh say year and a half moving right toward Election Day?
GRASSLEY: One and a half percent growth in the GDP, one and four-tenths million jobs as a result of the entire package, and most of that would come from the income tax portion of it but some would come from the elimination of double taxation of corporate dividends.
DOBBS: Now, what do you say to a fellow like Warren Buffett who says this tax cut plan to eliminate double taxation on dividends is simply inequitable and won't have a cumulative impact? He and Charlie Munger, his partner, have been pretty savvy over the years, even in macroeconomics.
GRASSLEY: Well, first of all I believe, you know, economists study it and this is the impact that they feel it will make on job creation. You've just had several experts from Wall Street on your program who say that it's going to bring a great deal of the loss in the stock market back. That's going to help people who are getting near retirement, particularly Baby Boomers. I think we have to think about strengthening people's retirement plans.
But the most important thing is, you know, just for instance the reduction of the marginal tax rate, some people say well that's just helping the very wealthy, but don't forget the National Bureau of Economic Research says that that's a source of equity for small business, unincorporated small business where most of the jobs are created in America.
And, if we are really interested in relieving the anxiety of people about this economy, the one thing that's going to do it is create jobs, getting this economy growing three to three and a half percent as opposed to two percent and instead of losing jobs, as we have the last four or five months and unemployment going up to six percent, you know, we'll start creating jobs once again.
DOBBS: I guess it would be it seems reasonable to ask you, Senator, I know you chair the Finance Committee, but if we want to drive jobs why would it not be more efficient to call for small business investment tax credits, for example, to drive capital expenditures? Why would it not be more stimulative to invest in infrastructure, the nation's highways and bridges and tunnels?
GRASSLEY: Well, in the first place, this bill will provide not quite the investment tax credit but it will provide expensing under Section 179 for small business from $25,000 where it is now up to $75,000, and I think the answer to putting money into infrastructure is that by the time the economy - by the time it gets into the economy it becomes counter-cyclical at that particular point and may even become inflationary.
So, what we feel we're doing through the consumer side of the economy is putting money in the pockets of people to spend to help the consumer side which, in turn, creates jobs or to help investment through accelerated depreciation.
DOBBS: Senator Chuck Grassley, as always, good to have you with us. Thank you very much, sir.
GRASSLEY: Thank you.
DOBBS: And that brings us to the question in our poll tonight, which is "Whose opinion do you value most on the issue of tax cuts, President Bush, Treasury Secretary Snow, Federal Reserve Chairman Greenspan, or billionaire Warren Buffett" billionaire is almost a title in this country I guess. Cast your vote at cnn.com/moneyline. We'll have the preliminary results coming up in the broadcast later.
Now, the final results of a poll question on Friday. We asked, "Which of the following should be the president's main priority?" Seventeen percent of you said the war on terror, 8 percent said tax cuts, 45 percent said job creation, 30 percent said healthcare reform.
Coming up next we'll take a look at some of your thoughts, your e-mails.
Also, a special report on NASA's next mission to Mars, John Zarrella has a behind-the-scenes look at the preparations for the mission to the Red Planet.
And, gassing up that guzzler for your family vacation this summer could be a pricey endeavor despite lower gasoline prices. We'll take a look at a concerning statistic.
And, a bunch of comic book mutants? Well, they make pretty good on their second go around. We'll have the big winners in the weekend box office coming up next. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The new "X-Men" movie marked the spot for our moviegoers this weekend. "X2: X-Men United" pulled in nearly $86 million, 58 percent higher than the opening for the original three years ago. The teen-oriented "Lizzie McGuire," what in the world is "X-Men" if it isn't teen-oriented, opened in the second spot. It grossed a measly $17 million, rounding out the top five, "Identity," "Anger Management," and "Holes."
On Wall Street today blue chip stocks paused from a rally that had lifted the market to the highest level since last fall. The Dow fell 51 points and the Nasdaq added a point to close at 1,504. The S&P 500 down three points on the day.
Christine Romans has more on all that happened on Wall Street and all that we can expect - Christine.
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNNfn CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Lou. Well, more stocks rose today than fell on Wall Street. The trend we've been seeing and many of the other indicators still running strong as well.
Merrill Lynch's Dick McCabe thinks stocks are completing a major bottom begun last July and moving into a recovery trend. He cites stellar breadth figures and recommends investors buy any pullbacks.
In fact, half the Big Board stocks are above their 30-week average. Nine out of 10 S&P 500 stock are above their 50-day moving average, 63 percent of those have topped their 200-day moving average.
Now, investor sentiment has been running strong, above 45 percent bullish at the last read from the American Association of Individual Investors, also up from March and January readings.
Meanwhile, all ten S&P 500 stock groups are up from the year's low hit in mid-March. Consumer discretionary stocks up 30 percent, financials, telecoms, services, industrials all logging double-digit gains. Sam Stovall over at S&P said these are exactly the names, the sectors you want to see rally before an economic recovery.
And now, Lou, switching gears, we want to tell you about a huge stock sale today by Ted Turner. He sold more than half his stake in AOL Time Warner. He still owns 45 million shares. He sold 50 million shares for himself today and ten million for a charitable trust. He sold all of this this afternoon in a single block at $13.07 a share. That comes to $784 million - Lou.
DOBBS: Wow.
ROMANS: That is a big stock sale.
DOBBS: That's a big stock sale and it's also, what, is it down about $90 from the high?
ROMANS: It is but, you know, at $13.07 that's a little below the market here today. That's still up from the lows we were seeing just in the past few months as well.
DOBBS: My goodness.
ROMANS: That's a big stock sale. DOBBS: That is very big indeed. Christine, thank you very much.
ROMANS: You're welcome.
DOBBS: Positive indicators, terrific.
ROMANS: Absolutely.
DOBBS: Thanks. Well, it's been 518 days since Enron filed for bankruptcy. Fifteen Enron executives have now been charged. Another 50 executives from corporate America have also been charged, and our tally is right now sent to jail, let's see, 518 days, nobody.
Let's turn to gasoline prices, better news, those prices continue to fall. The average price of a gallon of unleaded gasoline fell six cents, now at $1.55, 18 cents lower back at the high of $1.73.
Despite that, the average fuel economy of cars and light trucks in this country is worse than two decades ago. The government's preliminary numbers show average fuel efficiency is now 20.8 miles per gallon, up a bit from last year, but well below the 1988 peak of 22.1 miles a gallon. The decline blamed on the popularity of those SUVs.
And, a reminder to vote in our poll tonight, the question: "Whose opinion do you value most on the issue of tax cuts, President Bush, Treasury Secretary Snow, Fed Chairman Greenspan, or billionaire Warren Buffett?" You can vote at cnn.com/moneyline. We'll have the preliminary results coming up next.
Also next, an agonizing wait for the friends and family of the Russian and American crew of the International Space Station after things went a bit awry on their journey back to earth.
And, NASA gearing up for a new mission to the Red Planet, John Zarrella has the special report.
And, we'll share some of your thoughts, including a couple of suggestions you have on ways for corrupt executives to pay their debt to society. I like them. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: A dramatic homecoming for the astronauts aboard the International Space Station. A Soyuz spacecraft carrying two Americans and one Russian this weekend landed nearly 300 miles of course delaying their rescue by several hours and raising concerns about their safety.
Russian space officials are still trying to determine exactly what went wrong. This was the first time NASA astronauts have returned to Earth in a non-U.S. spacecraft.
That brings us to our quote of the day. "This was a case where communication shut off and absolutely no information came in for the longest time...it was high anxiety, it really was," NASA administrator, Sean O'Keefe. Well, the planet Earth and the planet Mars will be closer together this year than they've been in centuries and that's ignited something of a space race. Europe will launch a solo mission to Mars on the 2nd of June. Three weeks later, the United States will send up two spacecraft.
John Zarrella has the story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOHN ZARRELLA, CNN MIAMI BUREAU CHIEF (voice-over): Mars is no pushover.
DAVE LAVERY, SOLAR SYSTEM EXPLORATION MGR.: This is absolutely not a slam dunk and nobody should think that it is.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have ignition and lift-off.
ZARRELLA: Thirty-four times humans have sent spacecraft to our planetary neighbor. Only 11 times have the vehicles not crashed or burned up in the Martian atmosphere or missed their mark entirely and skipped out into deep space.
LAVERY: Mars may come and bit us and that's one of the reasons actually that we're flying too, just in case Mars bites us and we lose one, we have a second basically to mitigate that risk and that potential.
ZARRELLA: At the Kennedy Space Center, twin rovers are going through the final checkout. In June, two Delta rockets launched three weeks apart will start the rovers on a seven-month journey to Mars.
After air-braking through the atmosphere, giant airbags will deploy surrounding the spacecraft, which like an over-inflated soccer ball will land and bounce on the Martian surface.
In 1997, the Pathfinder mission used airbags to successfully land on Mars. Two years later the Polar Lander was lost during landing. That mission did not use airbags.
So, NASA engineers went back to a method they knew would work. At landing sites, thousands of miles apart, these roving geologists will spend 90 days sampling Mars.
PETER THEISINGER, MARS EXPLORATION ROVER PROJECT MGR.: They'll wake up in the morning and they'll get a message from Earth that says this is what we want you to do today, and they'll start doing that and then kind of in the middle of the day they'll send back information on what they've accomplished which we need to plan tomorrow.
ZARRELLA: The rovers are not going to Mars looking for life, but they will be looking for water, which is an essential ingredient for even the simplest forms of life to have existed, or perhaps to still exist.
John Zarrella CNN, Cape Canaveral, Florida. (END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: When we come back, we'll have the preliminary results of our poll question and we'll share some of your e-mails. Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Now, the preliminary results of tonight's poll. The question, "Whose opinion do you value most on the issue of tax cuts?" Fifteen percent of you said President Bush, two percent said Treasury Secretary Snow, 36 percent Fed Chief Greenspan, 47 percent billionaire Warren Buffett.
Now, for a look at some of your thoughts, many of you wrote in in response to one viewer's e-mail pointing out the French origin of the word sortie. That viewer and I jokingly suggested that we come up with an alternate word.
Eddie Abney of Palm Harbor, Florida figured it out for us. "This term always bothered me for 20 years in the Air Force. Now, I know why. I still call them flights."
On corporate corruption, Stephan Bricker from Cincinnati, Ohio, wrote: "If Enron and some of the other CEOs that have overstated their profits are now asking for a rebate on taxes they paid, shouldn't those rebates be returned to all of the Americans who lost their retirement investment funds as a result of corporate fraud?" Now, that's a good idea.
And, Jerry Griffin of Millersview, Texas had a suggestion for punishing corporate criminals, saying: "I think the perfect punishment for all convicted CEOs of Enron and other companies should not be a jail sentence. Instead, they should be stripped of everything, forced to live in a low income home, drive a ten-year-old car, work at a minimum wage job, pay for their own insurance and not be allowed to make investments, and wonder how they will ever retire."
Interesting ideas, we love hearing from you. Send us your thoughts at loudobbs@cnn.com.
Thanks for being with us tonight. Tomorrow evening, Congressman Bill Thomas, the chairman of the House Ways and Means Committee joins us to talk about tax cuts.
Former Defense Secretary William Cohen joins us to talk about post-war Iraq and, for all of us here, goodnight from New York.
"LIVE FROM THE HEADLINES" with Paula Zahn is coming up next.
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