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CNN Saturday Morning News
Interview with William Irwin
Aired May 17, 2003 - 08:45 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, the second Matrix movie opened Thursday to record numbers. "The Matrix Reloaded," that's what it's called, picks up where the first film left off in two worlds, the conscious and the subconscious, and their battle between the perceptions of good and evil.
The question is, is the Matrix more than just a movie?
We're joined by Professor William Irwin, the editor of "The Matrix and Philosophy," an interesting collection of thoughts on the movie and its place in the world.
Good morning, Professor.
Thanks for watching us.
WILLIAM IRWIN, EDITOR, "THE MATRIX AND PHILOSOPHY": Good morning, Anderson.
Thanks for having me.
COOPER: I've got to say, when I first heard about this, you know, the question was what is a professor of philosophy doing writing a book about "The Matrix," this movie?
IRWIN: Well, a lot of people ask that. I think philosophy has had a public relations problem for probably a few centuries now and one way to get people interested in philosophy is to show tie-ins with popular culture, and I think "The Matrix" does that particularly well.
COOPER: All right, so where is the philosophy in "The Matrix" and what is the sort of the philosophical underpinnings of it, if you will?
IRWIN: Like the Matrix, it's all around us. It raises all the big questions of philosophy -- what can I know, the basic question of epistemology; what is real, a prominent question, the basic question of metaphysics; what should I do, the basic question of ethics. And it plays on some very important classic texts in philosophy -- Plato's allegory of the cave, telling the story of prisoners who are chained by the neck and legs until one escapes and returns to free; Descartes' theory of an evil spirit or evil deceiver who fools us about all of our sensory perceptions; and in "Reloaded," I think, Nietzsche's idea of the Ubermenscher, the superman.
COOPER: And you see that, have you seen, you've seen the second one. Do, does the second one sort of have as much philosophy as the first one?
IRWIN: Yes, I've seen the second one. In fact, I went with some students of mine from King's College the other night. And, indeed, there's a lot of philosophy in there, as well. I think the main philosophical question discussed in the second film is free will versus determinism -- are we fully determined agents? That is to say, is every event, act and decision simply the inevitable consequence of what comes before or is free will something that humans have that is real, that, of course, machines and agents wouldn't have?
COOPER: Now, I mean do you think the makers of this movie knew this going into it? Do, I mean are they readers of philosophy, to your knowledge?
IRWIN: Oh, I feel quite confident that they are. As a matter of fact, the Warkowski brothers are quite elusive, but we do get details seeping out that they've had Keanu Reeves reading Schopenhauer and Nietzsche and David Hume, among other philosophers, for this second film. And there was a reading list for the first, as well.
COOPER: I mean I guess this is not particularly unusual. "Star Wars," George Lucas often talks about, you know, sort of the philosophical underpinnings of that, the hero's journey, the mythological underpinnings of it. How do you use "The Matrix" as a teaching tool?
IRWIN: Well...
COOPER: I mean I imagine -- do your students actually get credit for going to see this movie?
IRWIN: No credit for seeing the movie, but I do use it as a companion to reading classic philosophical texts. So we'll read Plato's "Republic" and we'll before that maybe talk about some of the elements of Plato's philosophy that "The Matrix" raises. And so it becomes something that's familiar to them when they're reading "The Republic" rather than something that's odd or alien. And the same with other classic philosophers such as Descartes, Aristotle, Nietzsche. We can sort of wade in and get our feet wet before we swim out deep to the philosophy itself.
COOPER: Now, I know you've also written, done some work on the philosophy of "The Simpsons" and "Buffy the Vampire Slayer." I wish we had time to talk about that. But maybe another time.
Professor Irwin, appreciate you joining us.
IRWIN: Thanks very much for having me, Anderson.
COOPER: All right, thanks.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired May 17, 2003 - 08:45 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, the second Matrix movie opened Thursday to record numbers. "The Matrix Reloaded," that's what it's called, picks up where the first film left off in two worlds, the conscious and the subconscious, and their battle between the perceptions of good and evil.
The question is, is the Matrix more than just a movie?
We're joined by Professor William Irwin, the editor of "The Matrix and Philosophy," an interesting collection of thoughts on the movie and its place in the world.
Good morning, Professor.
Thanks for watching us.
WILLIAM IRWIN, EDITOR, "THE MATRIX AND PHILOSOPHY": Good morning, Anderson.
Thanks for having me.
COOPER: I've got to say, when I first heard about this, you know, the question was what is a professor of philosophy doing writing a book about "The Matrix," this movie?
IRWIN: Well, a lot of people ask that. I think philosophy has had a public relations problem for probably a few centuries now and one way to get people interested in philosophy is to show tie-ins with popular culture, and I think "The Matrix" does that particularly well.
COOPER: All right, so where is the philosophy in "The Matrix" and what is the sort of the philosophical underpinnings of it, if you will?
IRWIN: Like the Matrix, it's all around us. It raises all the big questions of philosophy -- what can I know, the basic question of epistemology; what is real, a prominent question, the basic question of metaphysics; what should I do, the basic question of ethics. And it plays on some very important classic texts in philosophy -- Plato's allegory of the cave, telling the story of prisoners who are chained by the neck and legs until one escapes and returns to free; Descartes' theory of an evil spirit or evil deceiver who fools us about all of our sensory perceptions; and in "Reloaded," I think, Nietzsche's idea of the Ubermenscher, the superman.
COOPER: And you see that, have you seen, you've seen the second one. Do, does the second one sort of have as much philosophy as the first one?
IRWIN: Yes, I've seen the second one. In fact, I went with some students of mine from King's College the other night. And, indeed, there's a lot of philosophy in there, as well. I think the main philosophical question discussed in the second film is free will versus determinism -- are we fully determined agents? That is to say, is every event, act and decision simply the inevitable consequence of what comes before or is free will something that humans have that is real, that, of course, machines and agents wouldn't have?
COOPER: Now, I mean do you think the makers of this movie knew this going into it? Do, I mean are they readers of philosophy, to your knowledge?
IRWIN: Oh, I feel quite confident that they are. As a matter of fact, the Warkowski brothers are quite elusive, but we do get details seeping out that they've had Keanu Reeves reading Schopenhauer and Nietzsche and David Hume, among other philosophers, for this second film. And there was a reading list for the first, as well.
COOPER: I mean I guess this is not particularly unusual. "Star Wars," George Lucas often talks about, you know, sort of the philosophical underpinnings of that, the hero's journey, the mythological underpinnings of it. How do you use "The Matrix" as a teaching tool?
IRWIN: Well...
COOPER: I mean I imagine -- do your students actually get credit for going to see this movie?
IRWIN: No credit for seeing the movie, but I do use it as a companion to reading classic philosophical texts. So we'll read Plato's "Republic" and we'll before that maybe talk about some of the elements of Plato's philosophy that "The Matrix" raises. And so it becomes something that's familiar to them when they're reading "The Republic" rather than something that's odd or alien. And the same with other classic philosophers such as Descartes, Aristotle, Nietzsche. We can sort of wade in and get our feet wet before we swim out deep to the philosophy itself.
COOPER: Now, I know you've also written, done some work on the philosophy of "The Simpsons" and "Buffy the Vampire Slayer." I wish we had time to talk about that. But maybe another time.
Professor Irwin, appreciate you joining us.
IRWIN: Thanks very much for having me, Anderson.
COOPER: All right, thanks.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
