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American Morning

Interview With Law Professor, Florida Board of Education Member

Aired May 22, 2003 - 09:12   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


HEIDI COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: 'Tis the season for graduation, but 13,000 Florida high school seniors won't be getting their diplomas this year because they failed the FCATs, the state's new exit exam. Protesters complain the standard achievement test is biased against minority students, and community leaders are planning a series of boycotts now to get Florida governor Jeb Bush to re-examine the FCAT policies.
We are going to hear from both sides of this hot button issue this morning. In Miami, Marvin Jones, law professor at the University of Miami -- good morning to you, sir.

MARVIN JONES, LAW PROFESSOR, UNIVERSITY OF MIAMI: Good morning.

COLLINS: And in Orlando, Julia Johnson, a member of the state board of education -- good morning to you, Ms. Johnson.

JULIA JOHNSON, FLORIDA BOARD OF EDUCATION: Good morning.

COLLINS: I would like to start with you just to give our viewers sort of an idea about what sort of questions are on this exam. Let's go ahead and look at one of them. This is from the science portion of the test.

"A ball is dropped from a height of 20 meters above the ground. As the ball falls, it increases in speed. At what height above the ground, in meters, are the kinetic and potential energies of the ball equal."

Now, let me also say that all of the formulas in order to figure this question out are given on the test, and obviously this is not an example of what all of the questions look like. There are some easier ones. But tell me what you think of that question.

JOHNSON: I think that that is a rather difficult question, but I think more importantly, that there are a series of questions. These questions were designed by teachers, Florida teachers. They are designed to measure the level of competency for each grade in which they are tested.

You stated something earlier about the number of students that took the test, 19,000 and number that failed.

(CROSSTALK)

COLLINS: Thirteen thousand won't be graduating. Right. JOHNSON: Absolutely. But when, in fact, all Florida 12th graders have been required to take this exit test, and for the last 20 years, Florida students have been required to take an exit test. The percentage of passage rate for our 12th graders, given that tough question and all that you have to offer, is an average of 91 percent -- 84 percent of African Americans have passed the test, 87 percent of Hispanics. This test has shown and provided for accountability and measurability, and our students are rising to that standard. Again, we've had an entrance-exit test for the last 20 years.

COLLINS: We do want to make note, of course, that this exam now, though, has been bumped up to 10th grade level. Prior to that, it had been the eighth grade level.

But Professor Jones, I want to get to you now.

JONES: Thank you.

COLLINS: Do you think this exam is biased against minority students?

JONES: Well, absolutely. I think that the bias comes in -- there are racial disparities that are systemic within, for example, Dade County schools, but throughout the state of Florida, there has been a long history of segregation, and that history has left two sets of schools. Schools in Miami, for example, many of them are 95 percent black. Go to the places where the schools are 95 percent black, that is where you will find the high fail rate. I think what you'll find, and by the way this first year -- the first year, not 20 years, the first year diploma sanctions have been involved. Students repeat the 12th grade if they don't pass the test. The bulk of those people who failed in Dade County are black, I think that that failure rate is traced back immediately to racial disparities, lack of curriculum (ph)...

(CROSSTALK)

COLLINS: So Professor Jones, let me jump in then and ask you what...

JONES: And I trace it back to segregation.

COLLINS: ... what sort of type of test should minority students take?

JONES: Well, we have no problem with the test. I think that the idea of testing for diagnosis is fine. It's the use of the test, and it is the use of the test as a barrier and a bar to people, that people have been accepted at U.M. who can't go because they failed the FCAT, who have been accepted to the Army, they can't go. Honor students who can't go. This test is a barrier to people's dreams and it is a barrier that -- she's talked about this test.

One question I would have, where is the instructional validity? The schools need curriculum reform, they need some basis for being able to prepare for the test. You can't prepare for it an hour. You need a whole curriculum that prepares for the test...

COLLINS: Ms. Johnson, is...

JONES: ... in particular in black schools you don't have that.

(CROSSTALK)

COLLINS: ... is it not true that the students have had several chances in taking this very test? Five chances, I believe.

JOHNSON: Again, the level of competency required is the 10th grade level of competency, and they have had five and will have another chance. This is not the end. This is not about students' failure, this is about success.

The difference -- the one other point that the gentleman made, we've had an exit test for the last 20 years, and if a graduating senior did not pass that test, then he or she would not receive a scholastic diploma. In terms of that treatment, it is no different than in the past. Under the eighth grade test, about 8 percent of the grading seniors did not pass. Under the FCAT, it is about 9.25 percent of those students.

COLLINS: We are running out of time. I'm so sorry, but I would like to give you a final thought. Quickly, please.

JONES: Final thought: 9.2 percent generally. For blacks, 2 to 3 times that. This is the impact of this test -- we had Hurricane Andrew, this is Hurricane FCAT. It is devastating in the black community, and there is no level playing field for all groups. There should be a level playing field. Everyone should be entitled to equal educational opportunity.

COLLINS: Unfortunately, that is all the time we have this morning. We certainly appreciate both of you being with us. In Miami, Marvin Jones, law professor at the University of Miami and in Orlando, Julia Johnson, a member of the state Board of Education. Thanks once again to you both.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com





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Aired May 22, 2003 - 09:12   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
HEIDI COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: 'Tis the season for graduation, but 13,000 Florida high school seniors won't be getting their diplomas this year because they failed the FCATs, the state's new exit exam. Protesters complain the standard achievement test is biased against minority students, and community leaders are planning a series of boycotts now to get Florida governor Jeb Bush to re-examine the FCAT policies.
We are going to hear from both sides of this hot button issue this morning. In Miami, Marvin Jones, law professor at the University of Miami -- good morning to you, sir.

MARVIN JONES, LAW PROFESSOR, UNIVERSITY OF MIAMI: Good morning.

COLLINS: And in Orlando, Julia Johnson, a member of the state board of education -- good morning to you, Ms. Johnson.

JULIA JOHNSON, FLORIDA BOARD OF EDUCATION: Good morning.

COLLINS: I would like to start with you just to give our viewers sort of an idea about what sort of questions are on this exam. Let's go ahead and look at one of them. This is from the science portion of the test.

"A ball is dropped from a height of 20 meters above the ground. As the ball falls, it increases in speed. At what height above the ground, in meters, are the kinetic and potential energies of the ball equal."

Now, let me also say that all of the formulas in order to figure this question out are given on the test, and obviously this is not an example of what all of the questions look like. There are some easier ones. But tell me what you think of that question.

JOHNSON: I think that that is a rather difficult question, but I think more importantly, that there are a series of questions. These questions were designed by teachers, Florida teachers. They are designed to measure the level of competency for each grade in which they are tested.

You stated something earlier about the number of students that took the test, 19,000 and number that failed.

(CROSSTALK)

COLLINS: Thirteen thousand won't be graduating. Right. JOHNSON: Absolutely. But when, in fact, all Florida 12th graders have been required to take this exit test, and for the last 20 years, Florida students have been required to take an exit test. The percentage of passage rate for our 12th graders, given that tough question and all that you have to offer, is an average of 91 percent -- 84 percent of African Americans have passed the test, 87 percent of Hispanics. This test has shown and provided for accountability and measurability, and our students are rising to that standard. Again, we've had an entrance-exit test for the last 20 years.

COLLINS: We do want to make note, of course, that this exam now, though, has been bumped up to 10th grade level. Prior to that, it had been the eighth grade level.

But Professor Jones, I want to get to you now.

JONES: Thank you.

COLLINS: Do you think this exam is biased against minority students?

JONES: Well, absolutely. I think that the bias comes in -- there are racial disparities that are systemic within, for example, Dade County schools, but throughout the state of Florida, there has been a long history of segregation, and that history has left two sets of schools. Schools in Miami, for example, many of them are 95 percent black. Go to the places where the schools are 95 percent black, that is where you will find the high fail rate. I think what you'll find, and by the way this first year -- the first year, not 20 years, the first year diploma sanctions have been involved. Students repeat the 12th grade if they don't pass the test. The bulk of those people who failed in Dade County are black, I think that that failure rate is traced back immediately to racial disparities, lack of curriculum (ph)...

(CROSSTALK)

COLLINS: So Professor Jones, let me jump in then and ask you what...

JONES: And I trace it back to segregation.

COLLINS: ... what sort of type of test should minority students take?

JONES: Well, we have no problem with the test. I think that the idea of testing for diagnosis is fine. It's the use of the test, and it is the use of the test as a barrier and a bar to people, that people have been accepted at U.M. who can't go because they failed the FCAT, who have been accepted to the Army, they can't go. Honor students who can't go. This test is a barrier to people's dreams and it is a barrier that -- she's talked about this test.

One question I would have, where is the instructional validity? The schools need curriculum reform, they need some basis for being able to prepare for the test. You can't prepare for it an hour. You need a whole curriculum that prepares for the test...

COLLINS: Ms. Johnson, is...

JONES: ... in particular in black schools you don't have that.

(CROSSTALK)

COLLINS: ... is it not true that the students have had several chances in taking this very test? Five chances, I believe.

JOHNSON: Again, the level of competency required is the 10th grade level of competency, and they have had five and will have another chance. This is not the end. This is not about students' failure, this is about success.

The difference -- the one other point that the gentleman made, we've had an exit test for the last 20 years, and if a graduating senior did not pass that test, then he or she would not receive a scholastic diploma. In terms of that treatment, it is no different than in the past. Under the eighth grade test, about 8 percent of the grading seniors did not pass. Under the FCAT, it is about 9.25 percent of those students.

COLLINS: We are running out of time. I'm so sorry, but I would like to give you a final thought. Quickly, please.

JONES: Final thought: 9.2 percent generally. For blacks, 2 to 3 times that. This is the impact of this test -- we had Hurricane Andrew, this is Hurricane FCAT. It is devastating in the black community, and there is no level playing field for all groups. There should be a level playing field. Everyone should be entitled to equal educational opportunity.

COLLINS: Unfortunately, that is all the time we have this morning. We certainly appreciate both of you being with us. In Miami, Marvin Jones, law professor at the University of Miami and in Orlando, Julia Johnson, a member of the state Board of Education. Thanks once again to you both.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com





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