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CNN Live Today
Former POW's Story of Survival
Aired May 26, 2003 - 10:19 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: Our next guest knows firsthand the horrors of being held as a POW. John Nichol is a former Royal Air Force flight lieutenant, who was shot down and captured during the first Gulf War. He co-authored the book, "The Last Escape: The untold story of allied POWs in the closing stages of World War II."
John Nichol joins us live now from London to talk more about the POW experience.
Good morning.
JOHN NICHOL, CO-AUTHOR, "THE LAST ESCAPE": Good morning to you.
COSTELLO: Lieutenant Nichol, I know you're here to talk about your book and World War II POWs, but I'd like to talk about your experience for just a minute. You were held by the Iraqis in the first Gulf War for 49 days. You were beaten nearly every day, and you survived. Yet, you say you felt shame. Why?
NICHOL: Well, I think if you speak to a lot of the POWs involved in the Desert Storm in Iraq in 1991, we all felt the same way. We felt as though, I suppose, we had let the side down a little bit. We hadn't succeeded in the various missions that we had been sent on. We were sitting out the war whilst our friends were fighting and sometimes dying around us.
And so, I think it's that sense that you hadn't fully contributed what you'd always hoped you would do when you joined the military.
COSTELLO: Well, but, you know, most people probably think you're heroes and admire you greatly because you did survive.
NICHOL: Well, I think the word "hero" is bandied around a little too much these days. I didn't do anything heroic. I simply -- I was shot down, sure. I was brutalized. It an awful experience that I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy. But I didn't do anything heroic. I didn't do anything extra in the face of adversity. I merely had adversity meted upon me, and that's not really heroic. Heroic is to do something brave in difficult and dangerous circumstances.
COSTELLO: Well, I think so many people would just disagree with you. What was your most terrifying moment?
NICHOL: Oh, gosh, I think there were many, many terrifying moments. I suppose -- there were two that I suppose stood out. The interrogation was brutal and violent, and that was awful. But at the end of the interrogation I remember after three days of brutality a guard came up to me and said that -- he just kicked me awake and said, "We're going to execute you now." And there was nothing that I could do about that. It was just a realization that my life was about to end.
And in one way it was terrifying, but then it felt kind of strangely calming, because there was nothing I could do about it. And then he said, "We can either execute you or you can go on TV." And, of course, I was paraded on TV, as were many of your American servicemen paraded on TV in the last Gulf War and the Gulf War that we've just seen as well.
COSTELLO: Yes, I wanted to ask you...
NICHOL: And that also was the worst experience.
COSTELLO: I also wanted to ask you about that. When you saw the American POWs on television, on Iraqi television, gosh, what went through your mind when you saw that?
NICHOL: Oh, it was -- I was working for one of our news channels here in the U.K., and I was called pretty early to see that the POWs had been captured. We knew that, but that their images were appearing on TV. And I just found my hands shaking. It was awful to see the fear in the faces of the men and the women involved, because I understood exactly what they were feeling.
You know, it was that sense of abject fear that nothing can explain all control has been taken out of your hands. You're now in the hands of a brutal evil dictatorship, and your life could be ended with just -- you know, with just the flick of a finger, your life could be ended. And it's that control, that loss of control that's truly terrifying.
COSTELLO: I know that you were beaten while in captivity, but the American POWs said they were treated pretty well. Why do you think the Iraqis went easier on the prisoners this time?
NICHOL: You know, I don't know. I think so many things from the Gulf War that we've just seen remain unexplained. Why were the weapons of mass destruction that we heard so much about, why were they not used in the final days when the regime was about to fall? Why were some of the Iraqi soldiers actually -- thank God, and I'm sure the POWs would echo that sentiment -- actually looked after some of the POWs as best they could? Why did the Iraqi regime fall so quickly under the British and American -- the America pressure?
So, there are many questions that remain unanswered, and I'm sure we'll learn the answers to those questions in perhaps the weeks and the months to come.
COSTELLO: Something else that I wonder about. Ron Young is leading a parade in Dacula, Georgia, seems to be happy, but I'm sure that he will face challenges in the future, as will the other POWs. What will those challenges be?
NICHOL: Well, you know, I'm not sure about that. I think we look at these ordeals that people go through, and we put our worst fears on them. We think how could I go through that? I don't know how they survived.
I do a lot of lectures to business, a lot of motivational lectures, and it's the question most people ask me. They say, "How did you get through it?" And my answer to that is, 'How do you not get through it? What's the mechanism for giving in?' You know, you have no control. You are simply existing in the midst of adversity. And when you come out the other side, you come out of the other side.
COSTELLO: Yes.
NICHOL: And I think that we'll be surprised about the strength and the character of your American POWs this time and the experiences that they went through. I think they'll build on them, and I think they'll go on to be better, stronger people because of it.
COSTELLO: Yes, and I just want to mention the subject of your book, which would be World War II POWs. Are their experiences and challenges pretty much the same?
NICHOL: Well, many of the POWs that I talk about in the book, "The Last Escape," the guys went through for two, three, sometimes five years. I've just been with some of your American veterans who are over here in the U.K. celebrating Memorial Day up at our American cemetery at Madingley and Cambridgeshire.
And one guy that I interviewed in particular for the book, "The Last Escape," he spoke about his experiences as a POW, which were 60 years before mine, but he spoke about them in the same way about my experiences, about that fear, about that lack of control, about that fear for the future, that listening to footsteps coming down corridors and not knowing what was going to happen. And he also spoke of a sense of shame; that he thought he had let the side down and hadn't performed as well as he hoped he would in combat.
So, although our experiences are separated by 50 or 60 years, the emotions that you live as a prisoner of war are very much the same.
COSTELLO: Unbelievable. Fascinating stuff. Thank you so much for joining us, Lieutenant Nichol.
NICHOL: Thanks for having me.
COSTELLO: The book again: "The Last Escape: The untold story of allied POWs in the closing stages of World War II." Lieutenant John Nichol.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com.
Aired May 26, 2003 - 10:19 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: Our next guest knows firsthand the horrors of being held as a POW. John Nichol is a former Royal Air Force flight lieutenant, who was shot down and captured during the first Gulf War. He co-authored the book, "The Last Escape: The untold story of allied POWs in the closing stages of World War II."
John Nichol joins us live now from London to talk more about the POW experience.
Good morning.
JOHN NICHOL, CO-AUTHOR, "THE LAST ESCAPE": Good morning to you.
COSTELLO: Lieutenant Nichol, I know you're here to talk about your book and World War II POWs, but I'd like to talk about your experience for just a minute. You were held by the Iraqis in the first Gulf War for 49 days. You were beaten nearly every day, and you survived. Yet, you say you felt shame. Why?
NICHOL: Well, I think if you speak to a lot of the POWs involved in the Desert Storm in Iraq in 1991, we all felt the same way. We felt as though, I suppose, we had let the side down a little bit. We hadn't succeeded in the various missions that we had been sent on. We were sitting out the war whilst our friends were fighting and sometimes dying around us.
And so, I think it's that sense that you hadn't fully contributed what you'd always hoped you would do when you joined the military.
COSTELLO: Well, but, you know, most people probably think you're heroes and admire you greatly because you did survive.
NICHOL: Well, I think the word "hero" is bandied around a little too much these days. I didn't do anything heroic. I simply -- I was shot down, sure. I was brutalized. It an awful experience that I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy. But I didn't do anything heroic. I didn't do anything extra in the face of adversity. I merely had adversity meted upon me, and that's not really heroic. Heroic is to do something brave in difficult and dangerous circumstances.
COSTELLO: Well, I think so many people would just disagree with you. What was your most terrifying moment?
NICHOL: Oh, gosh, I think there were many, many terrifying moments. I suppose -- there were two that I suppose stood out. The interrogation was brutal and violent, and that was awful. But at the end of the interrogation I remember after three days of brutality a guard came up to me and said that -- he just kicked me awake and said, "We're going to execute you now." And there was nothing that I could do about that. It was just a realization that my life was about to end.
And in one way it was terrifying, but then it felt kind of strangely calming, because there was nothing I could do about it. And then he said, "We can either execute you or you can go on TV." And, of course, I was paraded on TV, as were many of your American servicemen paraded on TV in the last Gulf War and the Gulf War that we've just seen as well.
COSTELLO: Yes, I wanted to ask you...
NICHOL: And that also was the worst experience.
COSTELLO: I also wanted to ask you about that. When you saw the American POWs on television, on Iraqi television, gosh, what went through your mind when you saw that?
NICHOL: Oh, it was -- I was working for one of our news channels here in the U.K., and I was called pretty early to see that the POWs had been captured. We knew that, but that their images were appearing on TV. And I just found my hands shaking. It was awful to see the fear in the faces of the men and the women involved, because I understood exactly what they were feeling.
You know, it was that sense of abject fear that nothing can explain all control has been taken out of your hands. You're now in the hands of a brutal evil dictatorship, and your life could be ended with just -- you know, with just the flick of a finger, your life could be ended. And it's that control, that loss of control that's truly terrifying.
COSTELLO: I know that you were beaten while in captivity, but the American POWs said they were treated pretty well. Why do you think the Iraqis went easier on the prisoners this time?
NICHOL: You know, I don't know. I think so many things from the Gulf War that we've just seen remain unexplained. Why were the weapons of mass destruction that we heard so much about, why were they not used in the final days when the regime was about to fall? Why were some of the Iraqi soldiers actually -- thank God, and I'm sure the POWs would echo that sentiment -- actually looked after some of the POWs as best they could? Why did the Iraqi regime fall so quickly under the British and American -- the America pressure?
So, there are many questions that remain unanswered, and I'm sure we'll learn the answers to those questions in perhaps the weeks and the months to come.
COSTELLO: Something else that I wonder about. Ron Young is leading a parade in Dacula, Georgia, seems to be happy, but I'm sure that he will face challenges in the future, as will the other POWs. What will those challenges be?
NICHOL: Well, you know, I'm not sure about that. I think we look at these ordeals that people go through, and we put our worst fears on them. We think how could I go through that? I don't know how they survived.
I do a lot of lectures to business, a lot of motivational lectures, and it's the question most people ask me. They say, "How did you get through it?" And my answer to that is, 'How do you not get through it? What's the mechanism for giving in?' You know, you have no control. You are simply existing in the midst of adversity. And when you come out the other side, you come out of the other side.
COSTELLO: Yes.
NICHOL: And I think that we'll be surprised about the strength and the character of your American POWs this time and the experiences that they went through. I think they'll build on them, and I think they'll go on to be better, stronger people because of it.
COSTELLO: Yes, and I just want to mention the subject of your book, which would be World War II POWs. Are their experiences and challenges pretty much the same?
NICHOL: Well, many of the POWs that I talk about in the book, "The Last Escape," the guys went through for two, three, sometimes five years. I've just been with some of your American veterans who are over here in the U.K. celebrating Memorial Day up at our American cemetery at Madingley and Cambridgeshire.
And one guy that I interviewed in particular for the book, "The Last Escape," he spoke about his experiences as a POW, which were 60 years before mine, but he spoke about them in the same way about my experiences, about that fear, about that lack of control, about that fear for the future, that listening to footsteps coming down corridors and not knowing what was going to happen. And he also spoke of a sense of shame; that he thought he had let the side down and hadn't performed as well as he hoped he would in combat.
So, although our experiences are separated by 50 or 60 years, the emotions that you live as a prisoner of war are very much the same.
COSTELLO: Unbelievable. Fascinating stuff. Thank you so much for joining us, Lieutenant Nichol.
NICHOL: Thanks for having me.
COSTELLO: The book again: "The Last Escape: The untold story of allied POWs in the closing stages of World War II." Lieutenant John Nichol.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com.
