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American Morning

Interview With Author Diane Ravitch

Aired June 02, 2003 - 09:50   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: If you are a parent, perhaps you've opened up one of your child's textbooks recently and wondered what is in there, what's not, and why.
For instance, one term you may not find much anymore is "founding fathers." Apparently, the correct term these days is just "the founders" or "the framers." Not that there's anything wrong with that -- or is there?

Diane Ravitch, an education historian and author of a new book, "The Language Police: How Pressure Groups Restrict what Students Learn."

I talked with Diane recently and asked her about what educational experience prompted her to write this book.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DIANE RAVITCH, AUTHOR, "THE LANGUAGE POLICE": I was appointed by President Clinton to a national testing board, and in reviewing test questions for fourth graders, I found out that many of the things that they might be able to read on a test were eliminated by what's called a bias and sensitivity review panel, and the stuff that was eliminated was regular stuff, like...

HEMMER: Stuff like what?

RAVITCH: For instance, you can't have a story about peanuts and George Washington Carver because some children are allergic to peanuts, and they'll be so upset by a story about peanuts that they won't be able to complete the test.

HEMMER: Come on.

RAVITCH: Honestly.

HEMMER: For fear of an allergy?

RAVITCH: No -- if they're allergic, they can't take a test that mentions peanuts. Another test question was about owls, and they said, in some cultures, the owl is a symbol of death. Therefore, children should never ever read a question about owls.

HEMMER: You call it censorship?

RAVITCH: Of course it is.

HEMMER: You think it fits that definition?

RAVITCH: What I did was to contact all the publishers of tests and textbooks and discover that they all have what's called "bias guidelines," where they list words that you're never to use. That's censorship. There are topics you're not allowed to use in textbooks or on tests.

HEMMER: We'll get to some of the topics in a second. Let me show our viewers some of the words right now. "Anchorman."

RAVITCH: Of course not.

HEMMER: Appropriate. "Caveman."

RAVITCH: All sexist.

HEMMER: "Polo."

RAVITCH: Elitist.

HEMMER: "Snow cone."

RAVITCH: Should be flavored ice.

HEMMER: "Soda."

RAVITCH: It is a junk food.

HEMMER: "Yacht."

RAVITCH: Elitist.

HEMMER: So they're all off the list?

RAVITCH: They are off. So is "founding fathers," so is "American." You're not supposed to say American. You're not supposed to say Eastern or Western.

HEMMER: Who does that offend?

RAVITCH: Well, the assumption is this is geographical ethnocentrism, or chauvinism. And if you say American, you're supposed to refer to North America, South America, Central America, and therefore you can't say, "I'm an American," unless you say you belong to the entire hemisphere.

HEMMER: You mention -- President Clinton appointed you to this. Do you see this from the right, do you see this from the left, or you see it from both sides?

RAVITCH: Well, I also worked for the first President Bush, and I try to be non-partisan. I am just looking at this as somebody -- I'm a historian, and I think it is censorship.

HEMMER: Political correctness, I'm certain you see this in here. Is this run amuck? RAVITCH: This is a combination of left-wing political correctness and right-wing fundamentalism, because there is banning and censorship coming from both sides.

HEMMER: You suggest a solution here, a three-prong solution. In-state purchases of textbooks, expose the whole bias editing process, and better educate our teachers. How would this improve things in your estimation?

RAVITCH: Right. Well, the first way to end the censorship is to end state adoption of textbooks, and I think this is where so much of this mischief has occurred. It is that there are 22 states that buy textbooks for the entire state, and the two most powerful are California and Texas. And the point at which pressure groups, whether they represent the right or the left, get their power is to come to these state textbook hearings and batter the publishers.

And so, now, the publishers censor themselves, getting ready for the textbook hearings. So the first -- my first solution is get rid of the state textbook adoptions and allow teachers to select their own materials, whether they are textbooks or something else. Have a real marketplace with 3 million consumers, teachers, rather than two big states ruling the whole textbook marketplace.

HEMMER: Whether or not your solutions get adopted, I am curious to know, as an educator, how do students suffer in terms of their education, if this, indeed, is the case, the language police?

RAVITCH: I think that students suffer in two ways. One is that it makes school really boring if you can't deal with controversy, if you can't speak honestly, if you can't tell the -- accurate controversies about history. If you can't introduce them to great literature because there are offensive words in some great literature, and so they suffer because they're bored to tears, and secondly they suffer because they become very cynical. They live in a society that's free, where there's lots of information, where the Internet has lots of excitement, television has lots of excitement, and school is boring.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HEMMER: Again, Diane Ravitch author of "The Language Police," out now.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com







Aired June 2, 2003 - 09:50   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: If you are a parent, perhaps you've opened up one of your child's textbooks recently and wondered what is in there, what's not, and why.
For instance, one term you may not find much anymore is "founding fathers." Apparently, the correct term these days is just "the founders" or "the framers." Not that there's anything wrong with that -- or is there?

Diane Ravitch, an education historian and author of a new book, "The Language Police: How Pressure Groups Restrict what Students Learn."

I talked with Diane recently and asked her about what educational experience prompted her to write this book.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DIANE RAVITCH, AUTHOR, "THE LANGUAGE POLICE": I was appointed by President Clinton to a national testing board, and in reviewing test questions for fourth graders, I found out that many of the things that they might be able to read on a test were eliminated by what's called a bias and sensitivity review panel, and the stuff that was eliminated was regular stuff, like...

HEMMER: Stuff like what?

RAVITCH: For instance, you can't have a story about peanuts and George Washington Carver because some children are allergic to peanuts, and they'll be so upset by a story about peanuts that they won't be able to complete the test.

HEMMER: Come on.

RAVITCH: Honestly.

HEMMER: For fear of an allergy?

RAVITCH: No -- if they're allergic, they can't take a test that mentions peanuts. Another test question was about owls, and they said, in some cultures, the owl is a symbol of death. Therefore, children should never ever read a question about owls.

HEMMER: You call it censorship?

RAVITCH: Of course it is.

HEMMER: You think it fits that definition?

RAVITCH: What I did was to contact all the publishers of tests and textbooks and discover that they all have what's called "bias guidelines," where they list words that you're never to use. That's censorship. There are topics you're not allowed to use in textbooks or on tests.

HEMMER: We'll get to some of the topics in a second. Let me show our viewers some of the words right now. "Anchorman."

RAVITCH: Of course not.

HEMMER: Appropriate. "Caveman."

RAVITCH: All sexist.

HEMMER: "Polo."

RAVITCH: Elitist.

HEMMER: "Snow cone."

RAVITCH: Should be flavored ice.

HEMMER: "Soda."

RAVITCH: It is a junk food.

HEMMER: "Yacht."

RAVITCH: Elitist.

HEMMER: So they're all off the list?

RAVITCH: They are off. So is "founding fathers," so is "American." You're not supposed to say American. You're not supposed to say Eastern or Western.

HEMMER: Who does that offend?

RAVITCH: Well, the assumption is this is geographical ethnocentrism, or chauvinism. And if you say American, you're supposed to refer to North America, South America, Central America, and therefore you can't say, "I'm an American," unless you say you belong to the entire hemisphere.

HEMMER: You mention -- President Clinton appointed you to this. Do you see this from the right, do you see this from the left, or you see it from both sides?

RAVITCH: Well, I also worked for the first President Bush, and I try to be non-partisan. I am just looking at this as somebody -- I'm a historian, and I think it is censorship.

HEMMER: Political correctness, I'm certain you see this in here. Is this run amuck? RAVITCH: This is a combination of left-wing political correctness and right-wing fundamentalism, because there is banning and censorship coming from both sides.

HEMMER: You suggest a solution here, a three-prong solution. In-state purchases of textbooks, expose the whole bias editing process, and better educate our teachers. How would this improve things in your estimation?

RAVITCH: Right. Well, the first way to end the censorship is to end state adoption of textbooks, and I think this is where so much of this mischief has occurred. It is that there are 22 states that buy textbooks for the entire state, and the two most powerful are California and Texas. And the point at which pressure groups, whether they represent the right or the left, get their power is to come to these state textbook hearings and batter the publishers.

And so, now, the publishers censor themselves, getting ready for the textbook hearings. So the first -- my first solution is get rid of the state textbook adoptions and allow teachers to select their own materials, whether they are textbooks or something else. Have a real marketplace with 3 million consumers, teachers, rather than two big states ruling the whole textbook marketplace.

HEMMER: Whether or not your solutions get adopted, I am curious to know, as an educator, how do students suffer in terms of their education, if this, indeed, is the case, the language police?

RAVITCH: I think that students suffer in two ways. One is that it makes school really boring if you can't deal with controversy, if you can't speak honestly, if you can't tell the -- accurate controversies about history. If you can't introduce them to great literature because there are offensive words in some great literature, and so they suffer because they're bored to tears, and secondly they suffer because they become very cynical. They live in a society that's free, where there's lots of information, where the Internet has lots of excitement, television has lots of excitement, and school is boring.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HEMMER: Again, Diane Ravitch author of "The Language Police," out now.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com