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CNN Live Today

Interview With Former U.S. Attorney

Aired June 03, 2003 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


LEON HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: We're going to continue on this topic, talking about this accused serial bomber, Eric Rudolph. He's making a second court appearance this afternoon, this time in Alabama.
Let's go there now and get the latest from our Brian Cabell in Birmingham. Hello, Brian.

BRIAN CABELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Leon.

Eric Rudolph makes his first appearance at an arraignment here in Birmingham in about five hours. The transfer from his jail cell, about six blocks away at the Jefferson County jail, will take place under very heavy security, as you might imagine, probably in the next few hours.

He's been in an isolation cell for the last day or so: 24 hours a day he is watched by camera. Every 15 minutes or so a deputy comes by to take a look at him. He underwent a medical exam yesterday, apparently no problems. He's eating jail food, no problems there. He said he requires no special diet.

There's a TV outside his cell, but the sheriff says the TV doesn't quite work yet. They're trying to get that fixed. And he was handed a "Birmingham News" this morning that he could read up on his case.

Overall, the sheriff says he appears to be very calm.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SHERIFF MIKE HALE, JEFFERSON COUNTY, ALABAMA: He seemed the most agitated, and I'm not saying it was rude or -- but the most agitated in a soft-spoken type demeanor was he says I don't know what's going on. I don't know, he said, if -- what's happening, and there appeared to be some frustration.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABELL: He's charged with bombing a clinic about two miles from here back in 1998. In that clinic bombing a man, an officer, an off- duty officer was killed. He was providing security for the clinic. A nurse who was reporting to work was seriously maimed.

A man was seen leaving the scene and then later on a pickup that was traced to Rudolph was also seen leaving that scene. What we'll here at the arraignment here in a few hours, perhaps, is some of the arrangements for this trial, exactly when the trial might take place, we don't know, probably within a year. How long it might take, we don't know that either.

But again, we may get some answers, Leon, here within the next few hours. Back to you.

HARRIS: All right, thanks, Brian. Brian Cabell in Birmingham, Alabama.

Doug Jones is a former U.S. attorney who worked on the 1998 clinic bombing investigation. And he joins us from Birmingham this morning. Mr. Jones, thank you for taking time to talk with us today.

DOUG JONES, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY: Sure. Good to be here.

HARRIS: Do you have any other information to add to what Brian just reported about what is going to be happening here -- there in this courtroom?

JONES: No, this is really a standard procedure. He will be brought in, they will make sure the formal appointment for his attorneys will be made at the arraignment. He will be either read or asked if he has read the charges against him and if he understands those charges. At that point he will be asked to enter a plea. Standard procedure for him to enter a not guilty plea.

There will be some scheduling but I think everyone understands that that scheduling is going to be subject to a lot of modifications in the coming weeks.

HARRIS: Are you convinced that this Birmingham case -- and those of you that actually went ahead and investigated it -- that this case is the best place to start with the prosecution of Eric Rudolph?

JONES: Yes, absolutely. I don't think there's any question. The attorney general said it best yesterday. He said this is the place where it's the most straightforward case. And I think that's the key here.

This case is going to focus strictly on what happened in January of 1998 and how it's going to be linked to Eric Rudolph. You won't see any evidence, I don't believe, that tries to connect Atlanta. This is a very discrete case, a very straightforward case. And therein I think it makes it the best place.

HARRIS: Has the investigation been wrapped up or are you still looking for more information to use in this case?

JONES: No, you know, the investigation by and large has been in a tidy package waiting for this very day. But in any investigation you never stop. And I know that there are agents right now in Andrews and Murphy, combing through the hills to see if there's any additional evidence they can find that will bolt center the cases, both here and in Atlanta.

HARRIS: So I'm assuming that you don't expect them to at any point here make a confession? JONES: Well, I don't anticipate that. I think, quite frankly, the odds were that if he was going to confess he would have done it this weekend right after his arrest. Now that he's got lawyers, this case is going to have to proceed. I don't anticipate a confession any time.

HARRIS: What do you know about his lawyers and who's actually going to be representing him there in Birmingham?

JONES: You have an outstanding legal team that's going to represent him. Richard Jaffe (ph), local Birmingham lawyer, in my view, one of the finest criminal lawyers, and particularly death penalty lawyers in the south, in the country, really. Bill Bowen is a former court of criminal appeals judge, very scholarly, knows the law. They put together a very, very good team for Mr. Rudolph.

HARRIS: All right. Is that team a formidable one in your mind, in your eyes? Is this a team actually, may actually cause your side some problems here?

JONES: Well, it's a formidable team. I mean, it's the evidence that is going to have to be laid out. That's where the strength is going to be. The lawyers are going to be there to do their job. It's a very formidable team.

What they're going to be doing is making sure that Mr. Rudolph's rights are protected every step of the way, even looking past the trial toward appeal, if necessary.

HARRIS: All right. And what of the evidence? Let's talk about that, if we can briefly. I know you can't necessarily tell us everything or divulge too much or anything that's sensitive.

But what is it that you think is, perhaps, the most iron-clad piece of evidence that you have? Is it these eyewitness accounts?

JONES: Well, certainly, any eyewitness account is extremely important. You're going to see a lot of forensic evidence that was gleaned from Mr. Rudolph's place in North Carolina, his home, his truck, his storage shed, that we'll try to tie back to the evidence recovered right here in Birmingham.

Obviously, the most significant piece of evidence, we believe, was the identification of the truck, which was later identified as Mr. Rudolph's. It's from there that all the evidence flows.

HARRIS: Something we've been talking about, Doug, over the last few days is how it's come to light that there are a lot of people that happen to be in that neck of -- the corner of North Carolina who may have been sympathizers with Eric Rudolph and actually may have been providing him some sort of comfort, psychically if nothing else.

In your mind do you think there's any possibility that maybe there in Birmingham you'll see that same sort of sentiment expressed somewhere in the public there in Birmingham? JONES: Well, I'm not sure. Obviously, this trial is going to attract a lot of attention and people will come from all over. We haven't seen that kind of sympathy here. And quite frankly, I think some of the sympathy even that we saw in the North Carolina area was from a relatively few but vocal people.

I think most people see this case for what it is. It's a crime of violence, a murder of a police officer, the maiming of a nurse. And I don't think anybody has any sympathy for that.

HARRIS: Yes, well, it's been five years, did you really expect to catch him alive?

JONES: You know, I really did. I've said all along that I felt very strongly that he was alive, that he knew the woods, he understood it, he was in familiar territory. I was surprised he was as close as he was. I always thought he would be in the vicinity and sooner or later, you know, he would let his guard down, he would slip up, and there would be a local police officer or deputy sheriff, Johnny on the spot, to do their job. And that's what Officer Postell did.

HARRIS: All right. Doug Jones, you're right now on the verge of actually getting a chance to do something that you've been waiting for a long time to do. Let's check and see how this all plays out.

JONES: I appreciate it. Thank you very much.

HARRIS: Thank you. We appreciate that.

All right. Let's stay on this story. Our Art Harris is working the story and he's working it in the hills in North Carolina. He is in Murphy, the town where we believe that Eric Rudolph had been hiding for the past five years. And Art has been digging around there for the past couple of days, trying to figure out if it's possible to learn why and how Eric was able to survive there in those hills. Art's checking in right now on the phone.

Art, what have you learned?

ART HARRIS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Leon, we've just learned some very interesting details about how Eric Rudolph was living around Murphy, North Carolina.

Law enforcement sources telling CNN he survived by killing turkey, deer, bear, cooking them. That he also told them that he had stolen grain from grain bins in Murphy near a corn field of a land owner. He said that during the winters he stayed warm with a sleeping bag, that he piled extra leaves on him and that he got his source of calcium from grinding up turkey bones -- Leon.

HARRIS: So, Art, are they saying right now that he pretty much stayed outdoors and out in the open the entire time? The speculation had been that he had been hiding out in either some structures somewhere or in some of the many, many mines that are riddled throughout the mountains in that area. A. HARRIS: What my sources are saying is that this is what he told them. I mean, if he was staying with anybody or using a local person for help, he is not going to, in other words, rat them out.

But he is telling law enforcement sources that he actually survived in the woods. And that he is a consummate survivalist, knows herbs, knows what trees, Bushes, and berries are poisonous and which ones can be eaten and which ones cannot be.

And that the locals were very, very astute in what I would call good old boy psychology. They didn't actually put him in a jail cell, Leon, they kept him in another room at the jail. He was allowed to talk and sleep on a mattress or on the floor, and was not put in with the other inmates. And someone was with him all the time. I'm told that he slowly opened up, felt comfortable with the local deputies because they were from the same area. And began to talk about his time on the run.

L. HARRIS: All right, Art. Finally, did he say whether or not or have you learned whether or not Eric Rudolph told them where he could find any of these camp sites that he'd been hiding out in?

A. HARRIS: In fact, Eric -- I mean, Leon, you could say that local authorities, the saying is they always get their man and they get their man to talk. That's who he told the location of his first camp site and that's how I'm told that they found it.

L. HARRIS: Very interesting. Very interesting.

Art Harris reporting live on the telephone for us from Murphy, North Carolina, adding more and more information now to the story and to more and more different parts of the picture of Eric Rudolph there.

Art delivering the news this morning that Rudolph has told authorities that he survived on killing turkey and bear in those hills. Thanks, Art.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com







Aired June 3, 2003 - 11:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LEON HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: We're going to continue on this topic, talking about this accused serial bomber, Eric Rudolph. He's making a second court appearance this afternoon, this time in Alabama.
Let's go there now and get the latest from our Brian Cabell in Birmingham. Hello, Brian.

BRIAN CABELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Leon.

Eric Rudolph makes his first appearance at an arraignment here in Birmingham in about five hours. The transfer from his jail cell, about six blocks away at the Jefferson County jail, will take place under very heavy security, as you might imagine, probably in the next few hours.

He's been in an isolation cell for the last day or so: 24 hours a day he is watched by camera. Every 15 minutes or so a deputy comes by to take a look at him. He underwent a medical exam yesterday, apparently no problems. He's eating jail food, no problems there. He said he requires no special diet.

There's a TV outside his cell, but the sheriff says the TV doesn't quite work yet. They're trying to get that fixed. And he was handed a "Birmingham News" this morning that he could read up on his case.

Overall, the sheriff says he appears to be very calm.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SHERIFF MIKE HALE, JEFFERSON COUNTY, ALABAMA: He seemed the most agitated, and I'm not saying it was rude or -- but the most agitated in a soft-spoken type demeanor was he says I don't know what's going on. I don't know, he said, if -- what's happening, and there appeared to be some frustration.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABELL: He's charged with bombing a clinic about two miles from here back in 1998. In that clinic bombing a man, an officer, an off- duty officer was killed. He was providing security for the clinic. A nurse who was reporting to work was seriously maimed.

A man was seen leaving the scene and then later on a pickup that was traced to Rudolph was also seen leaving that scene. What we'll here at the arraignment here in a few hours, perhaps, is some of the arrangements for this trial, exactly when the trial might take place, we don't know, probably within a year. How long it might take, we don't know that either.

But again, we may get some answers, Leon, here within the next few hours. Back to you.

HARRIS: All right, thanks, Brian. Brian Cabell in Birmingham, Alabama.

Doug Jones is a former U.S. attorney who worked on the 1998 clinic bombing investigation. And he joins us from Birmingham this morning. Mr. Jones, thank you for taking time to talk with us today.

DOUG JONES, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY: Sure. Good to be here.

HARRIS: Do you have any other information to add to what Brian just reported about what is going to be happening here -- there in this courtroom?

JONES: No, this is really a standard procedure. He will be brought in, they will make sure the formal appointment for his attorneys will be made at the arraignment. He will be either read or asked if he has read the charges against him and if he understands those charges. At that point he will be asked to enter a plea. Standard procedure for him to enter a not guilty plea.

There will be some scheduling but I think everyone understands that that scheduling is going to be subject to a lot of modifications in the coming weeks.

HARRIS: Are you convinced that this Birmingham case -- and those of you that actually went ahead and investigated it -- that this case is the best place to start with the prosecution of Eric Rudolph?

JONES: Yes, absolutely. I don't think there's any question. The attorney general said it best yesterday. He said this is the place where it's the most straightforward case. And I think that's the key here.

This case is going to focus strictly on what happened in January of 1998 and how it's going to be linked to Eric Rudolph. You won't see any evidence, I don't believe, that tries to connect Atlanta. This is a very discrete case, a very straightforward case. And therein I think it makes it the best place.

HARRIS: Has the investigation been wrapped up or are you still looking for more information to use in this case?

JONES: No, you know, the investigation by and large has been in a tidy package waiting for this very day. But in any investigation you never stop. And I know that there are agents right now in Andrews and Murphy, combing through the hills to see if there's any additional evidence they can find that will bolt center the cases, both here and in Atlanta.

HARRIS: So I'm assuming that you don't expect them to at any point here make a confession? JONES: Well, I don't anticipate that. I think, quite frankly, the odds were that if he was going to confess he would have done it this weekend right after his arrest. Now that he's got lawyers, this case is going to have to proceed. I don't anticipate a confession any time.

HARRIS: What do you know about his lawyers and who's actually going to be representing him there in Birmingham?

JONES: You have an outstanding legal team that's going to represent him. Richard Jaffe (ph), local Birmingham lawyer, in my view, one of the finest criminal lawyers, and particularly death penalty lawyers in the south, in the country, really. Bill Bowen is a former court of criminal appeals judge, very scholarly, knows the law. They put together a very, very good team for Mr. Rudolph.

HARRIS: All right. Is that team a formidable one in your mind, in your eyes? Is this a team actually, may actually cause your side some problems here?

JONES: Well, it's a formidable team. I mean, it's the evidence that is going to have to be laid out. That's where the strength is going to be. The lawyers are going to be there to do their job. It's a very formidable team.

What they're going to be doing is making sure that Mr. Rudolph's rights are protected every step of the way, even looking past the trial toward appeal, if necessary.

HARRIS: All right. And what of the evidence? Let's talk about that, if we can briefly. I know you can't necessarily tell us everything or divulge too much or anything that's sensitive.

But what is it that you think is, perhaps, the most iron-clad piece of evidence that you have? Is it these eyewitness accounts?

JONES: Well, certainly, any eyewitness account is extremely important. You're going to see a lot of forensic evidence that was gleaned from Mr. Rudolph's place in North Carolina, his home, his truck, his storage shed, that we'll try to tie back to the evidence recovered right here in Birmingham.

Obviously, the most significant piece of evidence, we believe, was the identification of the truck, which was later identified as Mr. Rudolph's. It's from there that all the evidence flows.

HARRIS: Something we've been talking about, Doug, over the last few days is how it's come to light that there are a lot of people that happen to be in that neck of -- the corner of North Carolina who may have been sympathizers with Eric Rudolph and actually may have been providing him some sort of comfort, psychically if nothing else.

In your mind do you think there's any possibility that maybe there in Birmingham you'll see that same sort of sentiment expressed somewhere in the public there in Birmingham? JONES: Well, I'm not sure. Obviously, this trial is going to attract a lot of attention and people will come from all over. We haven't seen that kind of sympathy here. And quite frankly, I think some of the sympathy even that we saw in the North Carolina area was from a relatively few but vocal people.

I think most people see this case for what it is. It's a crime of violence, a murder of a police officer, the maiming of a nurse. And I don't think anybody has any sympathy for that.

HARRIS: Yes, well, it's been five years, did you really expect to catch him alive?

JONES: You know, I really did. I've said all along that I felt very strongly that he was alive, that he knew the woods, he understood it, he was in familiar territory. I was surprised he was as close as he was. I always thought he would be in the vicinity and sooner or later, you know, he would let his guard down, he would slip up, and there would be a local police officer or deputy sheriff, Johnny on the spot, to do their job. And that's what Officer Postell did.

HARRIS: All right. Doug Jones, you're right now on the verge of actually getting a chance to do something that you've been waiting for a long time to do. Let's check and see how this all plays out.

JONES: I appreciate it. Thank you very much.

HARRIS: Thank you. We appreciate that.

All right. Let's stay on this story. Our Art Harris is working the story and he's working it in the hills in North Carolina. He is in Murphy, the town where we believe that Eric Rudolph had been hiding for the past five years. And Art has been digging around there for the past couple of days, trying to figure out if it's possible to learn why and how Eric was able to survive there in those hills. Art's checking in right now on the phone.

Art, what have you learned?

ART HARRIS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Leon, we've just learned some very interesting details about how Eric Rudolph was living around Murphy, North Carolina.

Law enforcement sources telling CNN he survived by killing turkey, deer, bear, cooking them. That he also told them that he had stolen grain from grain bins in Murphy near a corn field of a land owner. He said that during the winters he stayed warm with a sleeping bag, that he piled extra leaves on him and that he got his source of calcium from grinding up turkey bones -- Leon.

HARRIS: So, Art, are they saying right now that he pretty much stayed outdoors and out in the open the entire time? The speculation had been that he had been hiding out in either some structures somewhere or in some of the many, many mines that are riddled throughout the mountains in that area. A. HARRIS: What my sources are saying is that this is what he told them. I mean, if he was staying with anybody or using a local person for help, he is not going to, in other words, rat them out.

But he is telling law enforcement sources that he actually survived in the woods. And that he is a consummate survivalist, knows herbs, knows what trees, Bushes, and berries are poisonous and which ones can be eaten and which ones cannot be.

And that the locals were very, very astute in what I would call good old boy psychology. They didn't actually put him in a jail cell, Leon, they kept him in another room at the jail. He was allowed to talk and sleep on a mattress or on the floor, and was not put in with the other inmates. And someone was with him all the time. I'm told that he slowly opened up, felt comfortable with the local deputies because they were from the same area. And began to talk about his time on the run.

L. HARRIS: All right, Art. Finally, did he say whether or not or have you learned whether or not Eric Rudolph told them where he could find any of these camp sites that he'd been hiding out in?

A. HARRIS: In fact, Eric -- I mean, Leon, you could say that local authorities, the saying is they always get their man and they get their man to talk. That's who he told the location of his first camp site and that's how I'm told that they found it.

L. HARRIS: Very interesting. Very interesting.

Art Harris reporting live on the telephone for us from Murphy, North Carolina, adding more and more information now to the story and to more and more different parts of the picture of Eric Rudolph there.

Art delivering the news this morning that Rudolph has told authorities that he survived on killing turkey and bear in those hills. Thanks, Art.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com