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CNN Larry King Live

Interview With Bob Jones

Aired June 04, 2003 - 21:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


LARRY KING, HOST: Tonight: Christian conservative leader Dr. Bob Jones on God, evil, Satanic cults and the Laci Peterson murder case. He'll take your calls, too.
But first: Martha Stewart is indicted for securities fraud and obstruction of justice. What will this mean for the domestic diva and the empire she built? We'll ask Court TV's Nancy Grace, a former prosecutor, and defense attorney Chris Pixley. They're both next on LARRY KING LIVE.

First a personal note. I had the honor of addressing a commencement class today at Harvard University Law School. I'm wearing the Harvard University tie. It was a proud day for a little kid who never went to college.

Anyway, Nancy Grace is with us in New York, the anchor for "Trial Heat" on Court TV. Chris Pixley, the defense attorney, is with us here in Washington.

Late news, by the way. Martha Stewart and the board of directors of Martha Stewart Living Omnimedia have agreed that Ms. Stewart will relinquish her responsibilities as chairman and chief executive officer, continue to serve as founder and chief creative officer.

What does this indictment say to you, Nancy?

NANCY GRACE, COURT TV: Well, it's a nine-count indictment. Four of the counts relate to obstruction. What's so interesting is the criminal indictment, Larry, does not accuse her of insider trading, which simply means that you are bilking the public because you have intimate knowledge of a stock transaction that's about to go down, and you take advantage of that insider knowledge, where regular folks like you and me can't make the same trade. She's not charged with that in the criminal charges, but she is charged with trying to hide or obstruct insider trading. Very interesting.

There are also SEC civil charges, which do claim insider trading to the tune of about $47,000. Reason why, in my analysis, Larry? Because to prove a civil case, you only have to prove to a preponderance. In a criminal case, you've got to prove beyond a reasonable doubt.

KING: Chris, why all of this for $47,000 for a billionaire?

CHRIS PIXLEY, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Isn't it amazing, Larry? KING: I mean, it just seems like -- if it wasn't Martha Stewart, would this have been a case?

PIXLEY: No. No. This is one of the richest women in America, and the SEC and the federal government are feeling pressure at not having made an example of more Enron, more Worldcom executives. And what better way to do it than going after a woman who's an icon? You get so much more press than you would ever get out of going after the thousands of other people that act on tips on a weekly basis.

KING: What took them so long?

PIXLEY: Well, you know, that is interesting. This goes back to December of 2001. We started hearing about it in June of this last year. And it's a 41-page indictment, Larry, and all it talks about is the fact that she may have told a few lies. I think, without overstating it, this may be akin to Kenneth Starr's investigation of President Clinton. You know, it starts out with this broad allegation of wrongdoing, but it devolves down to a simply discussion of the fact that the government's going after you because they think you lied.

KING: How does it read to you, Nancy?

GRACE: Well, Larry, in my experience as a fed, it takes the feds forever to move on anything. I'm not surprised at the long delay in seeking charges. But one thing Pixley said I do agree with. When you go into a courtroom as a prosecutor, you better be wearing the white hat. And when this jury, 12 regular people like us, thinks back on Enron, Global Crossing, Worldcom, Tyco, and then the prosecutor wants to put Martha Stewart behind bars because she possibly erased a phone message? You know what? They're going to have an uphill battle, also because a lot of people love Martha Stewart. She is the American dream come true. If she did this, the jury could enact jury nullification.

KING: Martha Stewart's attorneys are questioning the government's motives, Chris. Do you?

PIXLEY: I do. Again, the government's under pressure these days. You know, the stock Market, so many people's retirement accounts have simply gone flat. And here's a woman who's been riding high for a really long time. So I think that they like the publicity that they get when they have a high-profile defendant like this. The problem is, again, a 41-page indictment that says very little more than that she lied.

And I think that Nancy's right. The SEC will bring their civil charges, and they may seek insider trading allegations against her and a conviction for insider trading. But they're not even seeking it right now on the criminal side. The U.S. attorney's office doesn't have what they need.

KING: Nancy, as you read the indictment, how do you assess the case? Does it look strong?

GRACE: Well, it looks strong to the extent they left out any really tough charges to prove, Larry. It's 41 pages of she deleted a phone message, she lied to the FBI, she lied to prosecutors. And then a very unusual move, Larry. They are claiming that she bilked the public by declaring her innocence and as part of her Martha Stewart Omnimedia, that her investors continued to buy stock in her company based on her claims of innocence.

I've never seen a claim like this in life. Don't know where it's headed, but I can tell you this, Larry. This is a woman, as I said, who is the American dream. She came from nowhere, nobody, became a billionaire! I guarantee you, Larry, the prosecution better be ready -- and I'm not saying they're wrong. They may have a case against her. But I guarantee you, Larry, she's smarter than all the lawyers put together in that courtroom.

KING: Nancy is usually so prosecution-oriented. She's...

PIXLEY: Oh, it's great! I love her tonight.

(LAUGHTER)

GRACE: No, I'm not saying Martha is innocent! I'm saying you better evaluate your case before you go forward. Is anybody dead? No. Anybody dismembered? No. The jury's going to think, Why are we here?

KING: And also, $47,000.

PIXLEY: Forty-seven thousand dollars. And you're not talking about an intricate case, either. You know, you asked the question, Why did it take so long? Nancy's right. The feds move slowly when they're investigating here. But this is not a case involving an intricate transaction. This is a "he said, she said" case. Did I receive a phone message from my broker? What did the phone message say? Did I communicate with the broker before...

(CROSSTALK)

PIXLEY: ... before I executed the trade?

GRACE: Larry? Larry?

KING: Yes.

GRACE: Here is how the state could win the case, I think. You remind those jurors -- what about you? What about your parents and their entire investment, their retirement, based on securities? Here is a person that knew better. Remember, she is a former stock broker. She is no idiot, by any stretch of the imagination, which would suggest to a jury she knew what she was doing when traded with insider information and then tried to cover it up. They're going to argue nobody, not even an American dream like Martha Stewart, is above the law.

KING: Does this look like a possible plea bargain, Chris?

PIXLEY: Well, she says right now, and her attorneys say, Listen, we're going to go to trial. We're not going to plea bargain here. I would imagine that Martha has the kind of contract that most executives have at her level, that says, Listen, if you bring disgrace on the company, you can lose your job. That could play into the decision as to whether or not she wants to plea bargain.

But as I looked at the indictment and read the indictment today, I'm -- it strikes of overreaching. They really haven't yet proven much of anything against her.

KING: Is she disgraced, Nancy?

GRACE: Her job? Lose her job? She owns 94 percent of the shares, OK? She's not going to fire herself. She's not going to lose her job. She may step down, as we have heard, from day-to-day working...

PIXLEY: And Nancy, she stepped down this afternoon. We got the press release just minutes ago.

GRACE: That -- that's what I...

PIXLEY: She has stepped down...

GRACE: Chris...

PIXLEY: ... as CEO and chairman.

GRACE: Chris, that's -- that's what I just said. But nobody is going to fire her. She basically has all the shares to the company. I don't see Martha Stewart entering any kind of plea where she admits to any guilt. She'll go down fighting.

KING: You envision her going to prison, Chris?

PIXLEY: No, I don't. And in fact, my understanding is that her attorneys would not agree to any deal that involved prison time, and that's part of the reason that they're fighting, at this point.

KING: You see her going to prison, Nancy?

GRACE: If the feds take her to trial and manage to get a conviction, if they go that far, Larry, they'll probably ask for some degree of prison time to prove their point that no one is above the law. It's going to be a tough day to see Martha Stewart headed to prison.

KING: Thank you both very much. We'll see you again tomorrow night. Lots of developments going to take place in the -- I mean on Friday night -- in the Peterson case, and we'll delve more into that. Thank you, Nancy Grace. And thank you, Chris Pixley.

Tomorrow night, John Eisenhower's with us, the only surviving son of Dwight Eisenhower.

When we come back, Dr. Bob Jones, president of Bob Jones University. He's next. Don't go away. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Why do you think -- and this could be any conjecture you want to offer -- that so many people seem after you?

MARTHA STEWART: Well, I try not to think about it, Larry. It's a really...

KING: But everybody...

STEWART: It's the kind of thing that I started to try to blank out now because I don't have any time to deal with this kind of C-R-A- P. I don't have time. I'm really busy, and I have so many good things to do, so many things on my mind that I really would like to get across to the public. The daily television show is very time- consuming.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: It's always good to welcome Dr. Bob Jones to this program. He's president of Bob Jones University in Greenville, South Carolina. He was last with us when we did a panel discussion on Jesus and war in Iraq. That was back on March 11. Tonight we're here to discuss a lot of issues. Talking about Satanic cults, as well.

But first, do you have any thoughts on Martha Stewart, Enron, the whole business of business?

DR. BOB JONES III, BOB JONES UNIVERSITY: Larry, I don't know. That's a little bit out of my realm, but...

KING: But lying has taken place. Well, Martha Stewart aside -- Enron and that kind of thing...

JONES: Yes.

KING: Lying -- and lying is against every moral principle.

JONES: I think it's time that big business became accountable, like everybody else, and was held to the mark. And I'm really glad to see that's happening. I think it's had a purging effect, a purifying effect across America in the business world. And I'm glad to see this happening.

KING: Why do you think, as a person -- just as a -- not as Bob Jones, Reverend, or as Bob Jones University -- we are so fascinated with the Laci Peterson case?

JONES: Good question. You know, I'm not sure about that. I was talking to one of the leading citizens of our town -- in fact, our county superintendent of education -- this morning. And he said, you know, I wonder if America really is fascinated. He said, I know that I, for one, when I see it in the paper, I just turn the page. And you know, maybe the media has kept it before the public. Maybe that's why we're fascinated by it. I'm not sure how the public really feels about it. I do think there's a certain fascination with evil that is probably in all of us. And maybe this is part of it. I'm not really sure.

KING: Swastika proves that, didn't it? Whenever we see a swastika on the screen, it's hard to change the channel.

JONES: Indeed, it is. Yes.

KING: And evil has a lot to do with what you talk about, doesn't it?

JONES: As a preacher? Yes, sir. It is. Sin and evil.

KING: Tell us about Satanic cults. They've been mentioned in the Peterson case. They've been brought up by the defense as possible culprits. What is a Satanic cult?

JONES: Larry, it depends on who you ask. There is no one definition that I've been able to find. I've done a lot of research on this lately. I'm not sure how pervasive it is in America. There are some people who are very evil, very destructive in their intent, very full of hatred. They may call themselves Satanic, but perhaps it's just nothing more than the worst evil that the heart can produce.

KING: But does it mean they worship Satan, they bow to Satan, they do religious -- they make things done to the body, et cetera?

JONES: In the extreme cases, yes. But I think it's very, very minuscule. I've talked to some police chiefs recently and said, you know, Are you guys on the lookout for this? And they say, No, not anymore. We don't find any evidence. We investigate all these things, but there's nothing there.

There was the Church of Satan that Anton Lavee (ph) started. He died three or four years ago. But it was a kind of a bizarre, sensational public relations kind of thing. I think they were basically hedonistic people who had some fascination for magic, but maybe not even believing in the personality of Satan, in a literal Satan. But Wicca, which disavows all association with Satanism, has something in common with the Church of Satan and such groups, though they would not espouse the violence that Satanism in its extreme forms takes. They -- both Wicca and the Church of...

KING: Wicca stands for something?

JONES: Wicca is just an English -- an old English group that basically believes in witchcraft. And in fact, there was a Wicca group at Fort Hood, Texas, some several years ago that created quite a stir in the military. They wanted their rights. They would go out in the full moon, and they would dance around a fire in hooded garments and that kind of thing. But I don't see the evil, the depths of depravity. Fascination with evil, yes, in the Wicca.

KING: You don't think there's a lot of Satanic cults running around America. JONES: I don't think so. I have not seen any evidence of that.

KING: As a Christian, what is the Christian position vis-a-vis Satan? Is Satan a person? What is -- who is Satan?

JONES: Good question, Larry. Satan was Lucifer, a created being of God. Michael, the archangel, Lucifer, who evidently had great power in his -- before his fall, before pride entered into him, when he wanted to exalt his throne above the throne of God. The Bible speaks of him as the devil and his angels. There seems to be taught in the Scripture a hierarchy of...

KING: This is in the New Testament?

JONES: And the Old Testament. Ezekiel 28 tells us a lot about Satan and all of his glory and all of his power and his magnificence, a beautiful, beautifully created being. Perhaps that was part of his pride that created his fall. Isaiah 14 talks about Lucifer wanting to exalt his throne above the throne of God.

KING: And what, in your opinion, your belief, does Satan do on the earth? What does he do?

JONES: He is the opposer of God. He was a rebel...

KING: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) war?

JONES: ... a rebel angel. Yes. Satan has his hosts. He is the prince of devils, we're told in Matthew Chapter 12. We're told in John Chapter 12, he's the prince of this world. We're told in Ephesians Chapter 2, he's the prince of the power of darkness. He is prince. He is a ruler over echelons of evil, a highly organized band of evil.

KING: Extremely powerful.

JONES: Yes, extremely powerful, but created by God. He is not equal with God. He is not really the rival of God.

KING: But he's more powerful than you or I.

JONES: Oh, yes. He's a supernatural being, a literal supernatural created being.

KING: Doesn't it also give you, frankly, the chance to blame him for everything? In other words, something bad occurs, Satan did it.

JONES: That would be an easy thing for some people to do, if they didn't really understand what the Scripture said about him. The Bible talks about three polarities of sinful evil: the world, the flesh and the devil. He's only one third of the problem of sin. Our sinful flesh creates problems of sin for us. The ethos of the world, the world system, which I believe the Bible teaches is under Satan's dominion. He's the God of this world. He is what this world worships when they worship idols.

KING: Are you saying he's winning the war?

JONES: On the long term -- on the short term, yes. On the long term, no. The Bible...

KING: He's ahead now?

JONES: Yes. He is, I believe, in his God-granted dominion, a powerful being in this world. I believe the Bible teaches, for instance, that over governments, there are demons assigned to Washington, to London, to Bonn, and so forth. In Daniel Chapter 10, it talks about -- the angel says he was coming to help Daniel, to minister to Daniel. He said, But the prince of Persia opposed me, and I had to contend with him. And when I leave, I'll go and oppose the prince of Greece. And I believe the Bible teaches that there are Satanic figures that actually preside over the affairs of human government and influence human government.

KING: We'll be right back with Dr. Bob Jones of Bob Jones University. We'll be including your phone calls in a little while. Don't go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: New issue of "Newsweek." The front cover is, "Should the fetus have rights? How science is changing the debate." And 46 percent of those surveys believe that a fetus should be considered a person as soon as conception occurs. This has been introduced into the laws. And again, back to the Peterson case, because he's been charged with double homicide.

What, in your opinion, is the right of a fetus?

JONES: I think there's no question that life begins at conception. And a fetus is a human being. And to me, the greatest atrocity of our day is that medical people can murder these babies with impunity. The abortion industry is a huge dollar-producing industry. And I think that they've got a lot of blood on their hands to answer for one day. I mean, what could be more innocent than a child? What should have greater protection than a helpless child that cannot protect themselves? And I believe with all my heart that a fetus is a human being and should be protected.

KING: When you see mothers murder their children, that recent case in Texas, what goes through the mind of a believer? I know you believe in free will. But what -- how do you even balance that? And especially when they say, "God told me to do it. I'm protecting them for God." They believe that, obviously.

JONES: Larry, I think it's the greatest inhuman atrocity that could ever be committed. I would not know what to ascribe that to if there were not a literal devil in the world. And one of the things the devil loves to do is to accuse the brethren -- that is, the believers before God -- and to accuse God before the world. And I think when a mother has murdered her baby says, God told me to do it, I think those perhaps are the words that the devil himself or a demon has put into her head. JONES: But these people are sometimes devout Christian backgrounds. They're devout Christians. They hate the devil. They worship the Lord. They kill their children.

JONES: Well, you know, the Bible says that the devil is an angel of light. If we met the devil on the street today, we probably would not know him. He would probably be the nicest liberal preacher that you ever met in the whole world.

KING: You think devils are liberals?

JONES: Well, liberal preacher in terms of somebody that does not believe the Bible, does not preach the Bible. I don't mean a political liberal, no. No. But he would be somebody that was a cleric, somebody that was a kind doctor. The devil has many faces, if you will. He is not always the evil, ghoulish, awful, frightening character that sometimes the Satanists would picture him to be. And so I believe with all my heart that the devil can take control of the mind and the mouth of somebody that pretends to be a Christian but is not and is actually his servant.

KING: But Eric Rudolph, the accused bomber, is saying he is a Christian.

JONES: I've heard this. But you know, it's easy for anybody to say he's a Christian. The proof is in the life, in the testimony. The evidence has to be there. The Bible says, "By their fruits ye shall know them." And a person who professes to be a Christian and kills babies or bombs people, obviously, they don't know what the Christian life is about.

KING: What is, in your opinion, Satan's goal?

JONES: Hatred of God, everything possible that he can do to destroy God and his purposes. Now, the Bible makes it very clear that one day, when the anti-Christ comes -- Revelation Chapter 12, for instance -- that it will be the devil himself who empowers this great world figure. And when people worship the anti-Christ, as the world will do at a future time, they will actually be worshipping the devil himself. Revelation Chapter 12 makes that very clear.

His purpose is to deceive. He's called a polyeon (ph). That's the Greek name for him in the Book of Revelation. That means destroyer. He's out to destroy God's purposes in the earth. And his doom is sure. The Bible talks about the devil is angels being chained in the prison of hell for eternity. So we know how the last chapter will be written regarding the devil. But in the meantime, he's up to a lot of devilment in the earth and a lot of destructive purposes.

KING: One would wonder why there aren't more Satanic cults, then. He's got a lot of power. Why not more of those?

JONES: Well, that is a very good question. And in parts of the world, there is a lot more of Satanism, demonism...

KING: Oh, really? There's... JONES: ... demon power than in this country. In many of the countries, where the gospel of Jesus Christ, the good news that Jesus saves, that Christ shed his blood for sinners like us on the cross -- where the gospel has not permeated, as it has in this country, the demon powers are very strong. The gospel -- I believe that it's very clear that either the gospel will be on the advance or on the retreat. If it's on the retreat, the powers of darkness are on the advance. And this is many countries, in pagan cultures, demonism is extremely strong. Idol worship, extremely strong.

KING: Do you respect Muslims, even though they don't share your religious philosophy?

JONES: Oh, yes. I respect anyone who sincerely desires to do what he thinks is right. I don't agree with Muslim theology, certainly. I would be completely opposed to it. You know, the -- Islam would make Jesus Christ a prophet, along with Abraham and Moses and Mohammed and 10 or 12 of them. I was traveling...

KING: But you don't think it's evil.

JONES: No, it's not evil. Now, there are evil Muslims, as there...

KING: As there are evil Christians.

JONES: ... are evil professing Christians. But there are many Muslims who are not evil people. Absolutely.

KING: We'll take a break and come back and go to your phone calls for Dr. Bob Jones. Tomorrow night, John Eisenhower, the only living son of Dwight Eisenhower. Don't miss it. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: Before we go to your calls for Dr. Jones, you supported military action strongly, the last time you were on, in Iraq. Are you concerned that so far no weapons of mass destruction have been found?

JONES: No. I believe with all my heart that they believe that they were there. What has happened to them is anybody's guess.

I am concerned about how we disengage from our presence there. To stay too long is to give Islams added reason for hating us. And then to stay not long enough if Saddam is still alive, is to get out, and his regime will come back, and all has been lost.

I think we have to stay long enough to put some kind of a stability there, to help some kind of a democratic process take place, to get a government established. And it's a delicate balancing act that we have right now. And I'm really concerned.

KING: Are you encouraged about peace in the Middle East?

JONES: No, sir. I'm not. Not at all.

KING: Not encouraged despite the current system?

JONES: Everything -- you know, it's almost old hat to find out one morning in the newspaper great progress made toward peace in the Middle East. Only two or three days later, to find out the bottom falls out. You know that's the way it is over there.

I am in the long run very encouraged because the Bible makes it clear that this land has been given to the Jew and that God will, in his time and his way -- I'm not saying the government there now is his time and his way.

But I am saying God in his time and his way, Isaiah, Jeremiah, a great many books of the Bible talk about God putting his people there. So there will be peace. It speaks of the day the Jew will dwell in unwalled cities. That's how peaceful it will be.

KING: Is that why Evangelical Christians are so strong in support of Israel?

JONES: I think that is the motivation. I'm not sure it is always a proper motivation because What's there today is Zionism.

KING: Which you don't like?

(CROSSTALK)

JONES: It's a nationalist thing. There's no freedom of religion in Israel. I know believers there who are kept under, who are persecuted...

KING: Christian believers?

JONES: Yes. Christian believers. There's no freedom, no propagation of the gospel there. It's a very difficult thing. But it is a political state now. One day it will be a Christ honoring, messiah honoring state.

KING: Mankato, Kansas, as we go to calls for Dr. Bob Jones. Hello.

CALLER: Good evening. I'm a Christian. I was just wondering in Dr. Jones' opinion, does he believe the devil mainly focuses on individuals in tiny groups, or does the devil prefer to get a nationwide and worldwide foot hold? I'm just wondering how do these satanic groups get their instruction? Is there any orderly basis behind their efforts?

KING: Good question.

JONES: That's a very good question. I'm not sure I have all the answers to that, obviously. I think the answer is yes to all of the above.

As we mentioned earlier, Satan does seem to work in a hierarchal manner over the governments of the world. He also works in individual hearts. In the gospels, for instance, there are many stories of the Lord Jesus casting demons out of people. It talks about the Demoniac of Didera (ph), for instance, over on the eastern shore of the Sea of Galilee.

The Lord encountered, he was chained in the tombs because he was so violent. He was a demon-possessed man, and the Lord brought him to himself. The Bible says, when they went out and found him later, he was clothed and in his right mind. Great story of the Lord's power over Satan and of the power of Christ to bring peace to the heart.

So, yes, individuals, yes. Nations, yes. And the devil is active. He is across the world. He is not omnipotent, and he is not omnipresent. But he has so many minions, so many doing his bidding, that it would seem that he covers the Earth.

KING: Can a good person do bad things?

JONES: Yes.

KING: Can you be very good and have a weakness that causes you in one area of your life to do bad things?

JONES: Yes, Larry. The Bible says that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

There seems to be very a strong sentiment today as you listen to people talk that somehow because a person lives and breathes and walks on the Earth he's entitled to heaven when he dies. The Bible makes it clear that's not the way it is. that only through Christ does a man come to God. There's no other name in heaven...

(CROSSTALK)

KING: Even if you sin?

JONES: Yes. Getting saved, coming to Christ doesn't make us perfected. We will be perfected one day when we're raised from the grave. We will have a body like his glorious body. But now we are sinners saved by grace. The grace of Christ is wonderful but we still live in these old bodies.

KING: Do you ever doubt that?

JONES: Doubt what?

KING: Your faith.

JONES: No, Larry, I don't.

KING: You never do?

JONES: No. The Bible is so clear, so strong, so powerful...

(CROSSTALK)

KING: ... a child dies, you don't lose your faith? JONES: No. I don't lose my faith when an abortion clinic doctor kills a baby. I don't lose my faith when the porno presses start operating or the -- the labs creating drugs start operating. I don't lose my faith when a man's unfaithful to his wife or when other forms of sexual deviancies, homosexuality, whatever it may be, when I hear of these things.

God gives man a free will, you just mentioned that a while a ago. He legalities man make choices. He also lets man suffer the consequences of those choices.

KING: Do you believe homosexuality is a choice?

JONES: I do believe it's a choice.

KING: Why would someone choose it?

JONES: That is a very good question. I have no answer to that question.

Sin is deceitful. The Bible speaks of the homosexual in Romans, Chapter 1. And it says that God gives them up to a reprobate mind, a mind that can't think straight. And somehow, I believe that there's something about that particular sin that gets such a strange hold, an abnormal hold on people that they can't think straight. God gives them up...

KING: Can you be a Christian homosexual?

JONES: Not a practicing homosexual any more than you can be a practicing adulterer or practicing thief or practicing liar.

KING: You put them in that category?

JONES: Yes.

KING: Tampa, Florida, hello.

CALLER: yes, Larry. My question for Bob Jones is Washington D.C. has over 2,000 different certified religions. What can be done, in your opinion, to find common threads instead of the usual process of finding common differences?

JONES: I don't find any scriptural authority for finding common thread. Polytheism, religious pluralism is not taught in the Bible.

If the claims of Christ are true that he is the way, the truth, and the life and that no man comes to the father but by him, that means that God is not at the top of a mountain and all religions are going to arrive in his presence climbing up their side of the mountain. It means there's one way to him and that Christ is that way.

And that's why, as a Bible believing Christian, my passion, my desire as every Christian's desire if he understands the scripture, should be that he get the gospel to every creature, that we want everyone we know to know our savior.

KING: Temple, Texas, hello.

CALLER: Good evening. Dr. Jones, with respect to the Laci Peterson case and Scott Peterson being charged with double homicide, should a fetus be considered a viable human being?

KING: We asked that earlier, and his answer was yes.

JONES: Absolutely yes.

KING: His answer was yes.

To Port Richey, Florida. Hello.

CALLER: Yes, hi. Good evening, Larry. Hi, Dr. Jones. I agree with everything that you've said so far this evening.

How do you think the defense is going to use the satanic cult in the Laci Peterson case? Thank you.

JONES: Thank you for your question and your response.

I really am not qualified to answer that. It's out of my arena. It's in the legal arena. I have no idea. I have no idea what evidence they think they possess that would give them that kind of defense.

From where I sit -- and it's just purely a layman's point of view, like most everybody listening tonight -- it would seem to me to be a farfetched defense because I think there's so many things that could have happened to those bodies that were apparently put in the sea that could have caused the expulsion of the child, could have created the mutilation of the body.

Who knows? But it's an interesting thing to think about.

KING: More on that, by the way, on Friday night. We'll be right back with more calls for Dr. Bob Jones of Bob Jones University, Greenville, South Carolina. Don't go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: We'll get right back to calls.

In May, in response to a question from a supporter in South Carolina, Senator John Kerry, a Democratic candidate for president, a war hero, said he would love to speak at Bob Jones University in order to challenge the university on some of its views. Neither Kerry or any other Democratic hopeful has been invited.

A spokesman for the University said why would we invite someone to come and speak for the purpose of reinforcing misrepresentations? But in an era of free speech in open university, why wouldn't you want John Kerry to speak? JONES: Well, you know, Larry, it's very rare that a conservative gets to speak on a notably liberal campus. They have their agenda. They're promoting their thing...

KING: But they do speak...

JONES: Occasionally. There have few conservative. You know it's pretty much of an enclave of liberalism.

KING: But why wouldn't you want to hear Kerry's view? I mean just as an intelligent open person, wouldn't you want to hear other views? If you only hear your own views you're preaching to yourself.

JONES: Yes, that's true, Larry. But with open media today it's very easy to tune into any of these debates. There was one recently in South Carolina by these ten, whatever, liberal Democratic candidates.

We know their views. We can hear their views. It's one thing to be able to hear their views, it's another thing to promote them by bringing them and giving them a platform. We invite conservative speakers who share the views that we believe are important.

KING: Lancaster, Pennsylvania, for Dr. Bob Jones. Hello.

CALLER: Hi, Larry King. My question is are Satan and his demons two separate things? And do you believe that animals have souls?

JONES: There's absolutely no evidence in the Bible that animals have souls.

Satan is a distinct evil hater of God, a creature created of God, who is the Prince of Demons. There are many fallen angels. The Lord said in Luke Chapter 10, I saw Lucifer fall like lightning from the heavens.

The Bible says in Ephesians Chapter 6, we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of darkness of this world, against evil spirits in heavenly places. That is, places above the Earth, the air above the Earth.

Principalities, powers, there are all kinds of structures of the demon world, all headed over by their prince Lucifer, Satan, the devil, interchangeable names. He was Lucifer before he fell. He's the devil, he's Satan, he's Beezlebub. All of these names are given to him in the scripture. He rules over that kingdom.

KING: What was he doing during the time Christ walked on the Earth?

JONES: He was doing just what he's been doing ever since the Garden of Eden. He's been stirring up opposition to Christ. He was at work in the Roman government and in the Jewish religious hierarchy to put Christ on the cross, to cast God, if they could, out of their world. He was behind the scenes working in the political arena and the religious arena to try to destroy Jesus Christ. The Bible says back in Genesis that Christ would bruise Satan's head and that Satan would bruise his heel, and that's what happened when the spikes were driven into his feet on the cross.

KING: God forgives, does he not?

JONES: He forgives on the basis of his son's sacrifice on the cross.

KING: So he does not forgive Satan?

JONES: No. Satan's doom is sure. The Bible makes it very clear that he will not be repentant. He will, to the very end, oppose God, and he will be chained along with all the demons in hell, God's great prison house for eternity.

KING: A new "Harry Potter" book comes out this month. Many in the Conservative Christian community think it's witchcraft. Do you?

JONES: You know I've never read a Potter book. I've talked to a lot of people who have read Potter books.

KING: What do they tell you?

JONES: I get mixed reviews. Basically, though, I believe most would feel it does dabble in sorcery, witchcraft. Sorcery and witchcraft certainly open the mind and heart, I believe, to Satan. I don't believe that's Satanism of the sort that would destroy lives and kill people. But it opens ouija boards, seances, horoscopes, astrology...

KING: Why does that bother you? So someone reads a horoscope. So what?

JONES: I believe that -- well, for one thing, in Leviticus 18 and Deuteronomy 18 and 19, there are proscriptions, there are scriptural passages where God was telling the nation of Israel, his people that he chose to bear his name in the Earth, don't do like these pagan (UNINTELLIGIBLE) nations do. Don't kill babies, don't consult wizards, don't look at the stars to try to figure things out. God said don't. That's Satan's dominion, and those who love the Lord really have no business in that.

KING: Huntsville, Texas, hello. Hello? I'm talking to someone in Texas. Hello.

CALLER: Hello, Larry.

KING: I'm sorry. Go ahead.

CALLER: Hello.

KING: Hello. Go ahead.

CALLER: OK, Dr. Jones, do you believe in the -- Dr. Jones, do you believe in the death penalty? JONES: Yes, I do. Because I believe it's very clear that the scripture teaches this. Who so sheds man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed. Romans 13 says that the government of the king does not bear the sword in vain.

KING: How do you deal with it when you learn someone was not guilty and was killed? And that has happened.

JONES: Certainly the fault of the justice system, but that has to be weighed against the fact that the death penalty, capital punishment, is unquestionably a deterrent to murder. Man knows that he's going to pay for his life if he gets caught killing somebody. There has to be a deterrent in that.

And God has ordained it. Human beings are going to make mistakes. There are flaws. I mean are we going to do away with jails because some people are incarcerated unjustly? No. Jails serve a useful purpose...

KING: This has no redress of grievance?

JONES: No, it doesn't. But neither do the death penalties or life imprisonment. Many of those are without parole. There is no redress for those people.

KING: Unless they're found innocent and they get released, as over 100 Americans have been released from DNA evidence from a lifetime sentence, some from death row.

JONES: Yes. But I don't see how the fact that some mistakes are made in the justice system does away with the fact that the Bible clearly teaches that god has ordained the death penalty.

KING: You believe every word of the Bible, right?

JONES: I do believe the Bible absolutely authoritative in God's word.

KING: We'll be back with our remaining moments with Dr. Bob Jones of Bob Jones University. Don't go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: Scranton, Pennsylvania, with Dr. Bob Jones, hello.

CALLER: Yes. My question for Dr. Jones is, Dr. Jones, have you or any of your congregation members had experience with the demonic activity and did you think it was real?

JONES: That's a very good question.

No, I have not personally. But I know some missionaries in pagan dark places who have had most frightening encounters with demonic activity and it is real.

And as we talked about earlier on the program, in the nations where the gospel of Jesus Christ has made very little inroad and where idolatry and all forms of Satanism and witchcraft prevail, horrible frothings at the mouth, horrible self destructive things are done by people under the influence of demons.

KING: How about other Christian faiths that don't follow this? Mormonism? Catholicism? What do you think? Do you think they're wrong? They believe in Christ. They believe in being saved.

JONES: Well, as I understand Mormonism, for instance, Mormonism is a polytheistic religion that believes that God and Lucifer were brothers, and that there was a rebellion in heaven, which we know in the Bible that Lucifer did rebel, and that Jesus, the created son, sided with the father and that Lucifer, against him, was cast out and that Mormonism makes Jesus Christ a created being, not God, co-equal God, a very God, God in the flesh. It makes him just like Lucifer, only obedient to the father as opposed to Lucifer. And that's just not Bible teaching about Jesus Christ. He's God.

The Catholic faith, because of the emphasis it puts on idols, on the taking of the sacraments, the works, it is a religion of works. Keep the sacraments, do what the church says, and you'll be OK.

KING: Don't you say that?

JONES: No, I say the Bible makes it very clear. Not by works of righteousness, which we've done, but by his mercy he's saved us.

KING: So you can just -- that's all you need? Deeds don't matter.

JONES: Yes. After a man comes to Christ, deeds matter.

The Bible says this in Ephesians: We are his workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in it. Now created by good works, we're not saved by good works. But after we're saved through the grace, the mercy of Jesus Christ, then we walk in newness of life, the Bible says,

KING: Dr. Jones, we have 30 seconds. Are you an optimist?

JONES: Very much so, because I believe the Bible. I know how the last chapter of world history will come out. Jesus Christ will rule and reign in this world for 1,000 years, from Jerusalem, from the rebuilt Jewish temple in Jerusalem.

KING: In your lifetime?

JONES: The Bible doesn't give us any timetable.

I expect to see him come for the rapture of the church. I expect it any day, any moment. And how can I not be optimistic knowing that, because I'm in Christ, as any believer in Christ, I will be with the lord for eternity?

KING: Thank you, Bob.

JONES: Thank you, Larry.

KING: Dr. Bob Jones, president, Bob Jones University, Greenville, South Carolina.

I'll be back in a minute to tell you about tomorrow night and some other things too.

Don't go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: Sports fans, it's Wednesday. Don't forget to read my column, "Sports a la King." It's posted every week on CNN Sports Illustrated on the Web. The address to get right to it is www.si.com/larryking.

And "Sports a la King" is interactive. So give it a read. Send me your e-mails, and we'll write you back in the weekly mailbag. Once again, the address is www.si.com/larryking. Log on tonight, and we'll talk sports.

Tomorrow night, John Eisenhower is with us. He's 80-years-old now, the son of Dwight Eisenhower. We'll have a fascinating conversation about every thing from Stalin to DeGaulle to World War II to being president of the United States. John Eisenhower tomorrow night.

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Aired June 4, 2003 - 21:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LARRY KING, HOST: Tonight: Christian conservative leader Dr. Bob Jones on God, evil, Satanic cults and the Laci Peterson murder case. He'll take your calls, too.
But first: Martha Stewart is indicted for securities fraud and obstruction of justice. What will this mean for the domestic diva and the empire she built? We'll ask Court TV's Nancy Grace, a former prosecutor, and defense attorney Chris Pixley. They're both next on LARRY KING LIVE.

First a personal note. I had the honor of addressing a commencement class today at Harvard University Law School. I'm wearing the Harvard University tie. It was a proud day for a little kid who never went to college.

Anyway, Nancy Grace is with us in New York, the anchor for "Trial Heat" on Court TV. Chris Pixley, the defense attorney, is with us here in Washington.

Late news, by the way. Martha Stewart and the board of directors of Martha Stewart Living Omnimedia have agreed that Ms. Stewart will relinquish her responsibilities as chairman and chief executive officer, continue to serve as founder and chief creative officer.

What does this indictment say to you, Nancy?

NANCY GRACE, COURT TV: Well, it's a nine-count indictment. Four of the counts relate to obstruction. What's so interesting is the criminal indictment, Larry, does not accuse her of insider trading, which simply means that you are bilking the public because you have intimate knowledge of a stock transaction that's about to go down, and you take advantage of that insider knowledge, where regular folks like you and me can't make the same trade. She's not charged with that in the criminal charges, but she is charged with trying to hide or obstruct insider trading. Very interesting.

There are also SEC civil charges, which do claim insider trading to the tune of about $47,000. Reason why, in my analysis, Larry? Because to prove a civil case, you only have to prove to a preponderance. In a criminal case, you've got to prove beyond a reasonable doubt.

KING: Chris, why all of this for $47,000 for a billionaire?

CHRIS PIXLEY, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Isn't it amazing, Larry? KING: I mean, it just seems like -- if it wasn't Martha Stewart, would this have been a case?

PIXLEY: No. No. This is one of the richest women in America, and the SEC and the federal government are feeling pressure at not having made an example of more Enron, more Worldcom executives. And what better way to do it than going after a woman who's an icon? You get so much more press than you would ever get out of going after the thousands of other people that act on tips on a weekly basis.

KING: What took them so long?

PIXLEY: Well, you know, that is interesting. This goes back to December of 2001. We started hearing about it in June of this last year. And it's a 41-page indictment, Larry, and all it talks about is the fact that she may have told a few lies. I think, without overstating it, this may be akin to Kenneth Starr's investigation of President Clinton. You know, it starts out with this broad allegation of wrongdoing, but it devolves down to a simply discussion of the fact that the government's going after you because they think you lied.

KING: How does it read to you, Nancy?

GRACE: Well, Larry, in my experience as a fed, it takes the feds forever to move on anything. I'm not surprised at the long delay in seeking charges. But one thing Pixley said I do agree with. When you go into a courtroom as a prosecutor, you better be wearing the white hat. And when this jury, 12 regular people like us, thinks back on Enron, Global Crossing, Worldcom, Tyco, and then the prosecutor wants to put Martha Stewart behind bars because she possibly erased a phone message? You know what? They're going to have an uphill battle, also because a lot of people love Martha Stewart. She is the American dream come true. If she did this, the jury could enact jury nullification.

KING: Martha Stewart's attorneys are questioning the government's motives, Chris. Do you?

PIXLEY: I do. Again, the government's under pressure these days. You know, the stock Market, so many people's retirement accounts have simply gone flat. And here's a woman who's been riding high for a really long time. So I think that they like the publicity that they get when they have a high-profile defendant like this. The problem is, again, a 41-page indictment that says very little more than that she lied.

And I think that Nancy's right. The SEC will bring their civil charges, and they may seek insider trading allegations against her and a conviction for insider trading. But they're not even seeking it right now on the criminal side. The U.S. attorney's office doesn't have what they need.

KING: Nancy, as you read the indictment, how do you assess the case? Does it look strong?

GRACE: Well, it looks strong to the extent they left out any really tough charges to prove, Larry. It's 41 pages of she deleted a phone message, she lied to the FBI, she lied to prosecutors. And then a very unusual move, Larry. They are claiming that she bilked the public by declaring her innocence and as part of her Martha Stewart Omnimedia, that her investors continued to buy stock in her company based on her claims of innocence.

I've never seen a claim like this in life. Don't know where it's headed, but I can tell you this, Larry. This is a woman, as I said, who is the American dream. She came from nowhere, nobody, became a billionaire! I guarantee you, Larry, the prosecution better be ready -- and I'm not saying they're wrong. They may have a case against her. But I guarantee you, Larry, she's smarter than all the lawyers put together in that courtroom.

KING: Nancy is usually so prosecution-oriented. She's...

PIXLEY: Oh, it's great! I love her tonight.

(LAUGHTER)

GRACE: No, I'm not saying Martha is innocent! I'm saying you better evaluate your case before you go forward. Is anybody dead? No. Anybody dismembered? No. The jury's going to think, Why are we here?

KING: And also, $47,000.

PIXLEY: Forty-seven thousand dollars. And you're not talking about an intricate case, either. You know, you asked the question, Why did it take so long? Nancy's right. The feds move slowly when they're investigating here. But this is not a case involving an intricate transaction. This is a "he said, she said" case. Did I receive a phone message from my broker? What did the phone message say? Did I communicate with the broker before...

(CROSSTALK)

PIXLEY: ... before I executed the trade?

GRACE: Larry? Larry?

KING: Yes.

GRACE: Here is how the state could win the case, I think. You remind those jurors -- what about you? What about your parents and their entire investment, their retirement, based on securities? Here is a person that knew better. Remember, she is a former stock broker. She is no idiot, by any stretch of the imagination, which would suggest to a jury she knew what she was doing when traded with insider information and then tried to cover it up. They're going to argue nobody, not even an American dream like Martha Stewart, is above the law.

KING: Does this look like a possible plea bargain, Chris?

PIXLEY: Well, she says right now, and her attorneys say, Listen, we're going to go to trial. We're not going to plea bargain here. I would imagine that Martha has the kind of contract that most executives have at her level, that says, Listen, if you bring disgrace on the company, you can lose your job. That could play into the decision as to whether or not she wants to plea bargain.

But as I looked at the indictment and read the indictment today, I'm -- it strikes of overreaching. They really haven't yet proven much of anything against her.

KING: Is she disgraced, Nancy?

GRACE: Her job? Lose her job? She owns 94 percent of the shares, OK? She's not going to fire herself. She's not going to lose her job. She may step down, as we have heard, from day-to-day working...

PIXLEY: And Nancy, she stepped down this afternoon. We got the press release just minutes ago.

GRACE: That -- that's what I...

PIXLEY: She has stepped down...

GRACE: Chris...

PIXLEY: ... as CEO and chairman.

GRACE: Chris, that's -- that's what I just said. But nobody is going to fire her. She basically has all the shares to the company. I don't see Martha Stewart entering any kind of plea where she admits to any guilt. She'll go down fighting.

KING: You envision her going to prison, Chris?

PIXLEY: No, I don't. And in fact, my understanding is that her attorneys would not agree to any deal that involved prison time, and that's part of the reason that they're fighting, at this point.

KING: You see her going to prison, Nancy?

GRACE: If the feds take her to trial and manage to get a conviction, if they go that far, Larry, they'll probably ask for some degree of prison time to prove their point that no one is above the law. It's going to be a tough day to see Martha Stewart headed to prison.

KING: Thank you both very much. We'll see you again tomorrow night. Lots of developments going to take place in the -- I mean on Friday night -- in the Peterson case, and we'll delve more into that. Thank you, Nancy Grace. And thank you, Chris Pixley.

Tomorrow night, John Eisenhower's with us, the only surviving son of Dwight Eisenhower.

When we come back, Dr. Bob Jones, president of Bob Jones University. He's next. Don't go away. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Why do you think -- and this could be any conjecture you want to offer -- that so many people seem after you?

MARTHA STEWART: Well, I try not to think about it, Larry. It's a really...

KING: But everybody...

STEWART: It's the kind of thing that I started to try to blank out now because I don't have any time to deal with this kind of C-R-A- P. I don't have time. I'm really busy, and I have so many good things to do, so many things on my mind that I really would like to get across to the public. The daily television show is very time- consuming.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: It's always good to welcome Dr. Bob Jones to this program. He's president of Bob Jones University in Greenville, South Carolina. He was last with us when we did a panel discussion on Jesus and war in Iraq. That was back on March 11. Tonight we're here to discuss a lot of issues. Talking about Satanic cults, as well.

But first, do you have any thoughts on Martha Stewart, Enron, the whole business of business?

DR. BOB JONES III, BOB JONES UNIVERSITY: Larry, I don't know. That's a little bit out of my realm, but...

KING: But lying has taken place. Well, Martha Stewart aside -- Enron and that kind of thing...

JONES: Yes.

KING: Lying -- and lying is against every moral principle.

JONES: I think it's time that big business became accountable, like everybody else, and was held to the mark. And I'm really glad to see that's happening. I think it's had a purging effect, a purifying effect across America in the business world. And I'm glad to see this happening.

KING: Why do you think, as a person -- just as a -- not as Bob Jones, Reverend, or as Bob Jones University -- we are so fascinated with the Laci Peterson case?

JONES: Good question. You know, I'm not sure about that. I was talking to one of the leading citizens of our town -- in fact, our county superintendent of education -- this morning. And he said, you know, I wonder if America really is fascinated. He said, I know that I, for one, when I see it in the paper, I just turn the page. And you know, maybe the media has kept it before the public. Maybe that's why we're fascinated by it. I'm not sure how the public really feels about it. I do think there's a certain fascination with evil that is probably in all of us. And maybe this is part of it. I'm not really sure.

KING: Swastika proves that, didn't it? Whenever we see a swastika on the screen, it's hard to change the channel.

JONES: Indeed, it is. Yes.

KING: And evil has a lot to do with what you talk about, doesn't it?

JONES: As a preacher? Yes, sir. It is. Sin and evil.

KING: Tell us about Satanic cults. They've been mentioned in the Peterson case. They've been brought up by the defense as possible culprits. What is a Satanic cult?

JONES: Larry, it depends on who you ask. There is no one definition that I've been able to find. I've done a lot of research on this lately. I'm not sure how pervasive it is in America. There are some people who are very evil, very destructive in their intent, very full of hatred. They may call themselves Satanic, but perhaps it's just nothing more than the worst evil that the heart can produce.

KING: But does it mean they worship Satan, they bow to Satan, they do religious -- they make things done to the body, et cetera?

JONES: In the extreme cases, yes. But I think it's very, very minuscule. I've talked to some police chiefs recently and said, you know, Are you guys on the lookout for this? And they say, No, not anymore. We don't find any evidence. We investigate all these things, but there's nothing there.

There was the Church of Satan that Anton Lavee (ph) started. He died three or four years ago. But it was a kind of a bizarre, sensational public relations kind of thing. I think they were basically hedonistic people who had some fascination for magic, but maybe not even believing in the personality of Satan, in a literal Satan. But Wicca, which disavows all association with Satanism, has something in common with the Church of Satan and such groups, though they would not espouse the violence that Satanism in its extreme forms takes. They -- both Wicca and the Church of...

KING: Wicca stands for something?

JONES: Wicca is just an English -- an old English group that basically believes in witchcraft. And in fact, there was a Wicca group at Fort Hood, Texas, some several years ago that created quite a stir in the military. They wanted their rights. They would go out in the full moon, and they would dance around a fire in hooded garments and that kind of thing. But I don't see the evil, the depths of depravity. Fascination with evil, yes, in the Wicca.

KING: You don't think there's a lot of Satanic cults running around America. JONES: I don't think so. I have not seen any evidence of that.

KING: As a Christian, what is the Christian position vis-a-vis Satan? Is Satan a person? What is -- who is Satan?

JONES: Good question, Larry. Satan was Lucifer, a created being of God. Michael, the archangel, Lucifer, who evidently had great power in his -- before his fall, before pride entered into him, when he wanted to exalt his throne above the throne of God. The Bible speaks of him as the devil and his angels. There seems to be taught in the Scripture a hierarchy of...

KING: This is in the New Testament?

JONES: And the Old Testament. Ezekiel 28 tells us a lot about Satan and all of his glory and all of his power and his magnificence, a beautiful, beautifully created being. Perhaps that was part of his pride that created his fall. Isaiah 14 talks about Lucifer wanting to exalt his throne above the throne of God.

KING: And what, in your opinion, your belief, does Satan do on the earth? What does he do?

JONES: He is the opposer of God. He was a rebel...

KING: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) war?

JONES: ... a rebel angel. Yes. Satan has his hosts. He is the prince of devils, we're told in Matthew Chapter 12. We're told in John Chapter 12, he's the prince of this world. We're told in Ephesians Chapter 2, he's the prince of the power of darkness. He is prince. He is a ruler over echelons of evil, a highly organized band of evil.

KING: Extremely powerful.

JONES: Yes, extremely powerful, but created by God. He is not equal with God. He is not really the rival of God.

KING: But he's more powerful than you or I.

JONES: Oh, yes. He's a supernatural being, a literal supernatural created being.

KING: Doesn't it also give you, frankly, the chance to blame him for everything? In other words, something bad occurs, Satan did it.

JONES: That would be an easy thing for some people to do, if they didn't really understand what the Scripture said about him. The Bible talks about three polarities of sinful evil: the world, the flesh and the devil. He's only one third of the problem of sin. Our sinful flesh creates problems of sin for us. The ethos of the world, the world system, which I believe the Bible teaches is under Satan's dominion. He's the God of this world. He is what this world worships when they worship idols.

KING: Are you saying he's winning the war?

JONES: On the long term -- on the short term, yes. On the long term, no. The Bible...

KING: He's ahead now?

JONES: Yes. He is, I believe, in his God-granted dominion, a powerful being in this world. I believe the Bible teaches, for instance, that over governments, there are demons assigned to Washington, to London, to Bonn, and so forth. In Daniel Chapter 10, it talks about -- the angel says he was coming to help Daniel, to minister to Daniel. He said, But the prince of Persia opposed me, and I had to contend with him. And when I leave, I'll go and oppose the prince of Greece. And I believe the Bible teaches that there are Satanic figures that actually preside over the affairs of human government and influence human government.

KING: We'll be right back with Dr. Bob Jones of Bob Jones University. We'll be including your phone calls in a little while. Don't go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: New issue of "Newsweek." The front cover is, "Should the fetus have rights? How science is changing the debate." And 46 percent of those surveys believe that a fetus should be considered a person as soon as conception occurs. This has been introduced into the laws. And again, back to the Peterson case, because he's been charged with double homicide.

What, in your opinion, is the right of a fetus?

JONES: I think there's no question that life begins at conception. And a fetus is a human being. And to me, the greatest atrocity of our day is that medical people can murder these babies with impunity. The abortion industry is a huge dollar-producing industry. And I think that they've got a lot of blood on their hands to answer for one day. I mean, what could be more innocent than a child? What should have greater protection than a helpless child that cannot protect themselves? And I believe with all my heart that a fetus is a human being and should be protected.

KING: When you see mothers murder their children, that recent case in Texas, what goes through the mind of a believer? I know you believe in free will. But what -- how do you even balance that? And especially when they say, "God told me to do it. I'm protecting them for God." They believe that, obviously.

JONES: Larry, I think it's the greatest inhuman atrocity that could ever be committed. I would not know what to ascribe that to if there were not a literal devil in the world. And one of the things the devil loves to do is to accuse the brethren -- that is, the believers before God -- and to accuse God before the world. And I think when a mother has murdered her baby says, God told me to do it, I think those perhaps are the words that the devil himself or a demon has put into her head. JONES: But these people are sometimes devout Christian backgrounds. They're devout Christians. They hate the devil. They worship the Lord. They kill their children.

JONES: Well, you know, the Bible says that the devil is an angel of light. If we met the devil on the street today, we probably would not know him. He would probably be the nicest liberal preacher that you ever met in the whole world.

KING: You think devils are liberals?

JONES: Well, liberal preacher in terms of somebody that does not believe the Bible, does not preach the Bible. I don't mean a political liberal, no. No. But he would be somebody that was a cleric, somebody that was a kind doctor. The devil has many faces, if you will. He is not always the evil, ghoulish, awful, frightening character that sometimes the Satanists would picture him to be. And so I believe with all my heart that the devil can take control of the mind and the mouth of somebody that pretends to be a Christian but is not and is actually his servant.

KING: But Eric Rudolph, the accused bomber, is saying he is a Christian.

JONES: I've heard this. But you know, it's easy for anybody to say he's a Christian. The proof is in the life, in the testimony. The evidence has to be there. The Bible says, "By their fruits ye shall know them." And a person who professes to be a Christian and kills babies or bombs people, obviously, they don't know what the Christian life is about.

KING: What is, in your opinion, Satan's goal?

JONES: Hatred of God, everything possible that he can do to destroy God and his purposes. Now, the Bible makes it very clear that one day, when the anti-Christ comes -- Revelation Chapter 12, for instance -- that it will be the devil himself who empowers this great world figure. And when people worship the anti-Christ, as the world will do at a future time, they will actually be worshipping the devil himself. Revelation Chapter 12 makes that very clear.

His purpose is to deceive. He's called a polyeon (ph). That's the Greek name for him in the Book of Revelation. That means destroyer. He's out to destroy God's purposes in the earth. And his doom is sure. The Bible talks about the devil is angels being chained in the prison of hell for eternity. So we know how the last chapter will be written regarding the devil. But in the meantime, he's up to a lot of devilment in the earth and a lot of destructive purposes.

KING: One would wonder why there aren't more Satanic cults, then. He's got a lot of power. Why not more of those?

JONES: Well, that is a very good question. And in parts of the world, there is a lot more of Satanism, demonism...

KING: Oh, really? There's... JONES: ... demon power than in this country. In many of the countries, where the gospel of Jesus Christ, the good news that Jesus saves, that Christ shed his blood for sinners like us on the cross -- where the gospel has not permeated, as it has in this country, the demon powers are very strong. The gospel -- I believe that it's very clear that either the gospel will be on the advance or on the retreat. If it's on the retreat, the powers of darkness are on the advance. And this is many countries, in pagan cultures, demonism is extremely strong. Idol worship, extremely strong.

KING: Do you respect Muslims, even though they don't share your religious philosophy?

JONES: Oh, yes. I respect anyone who sincerely desires to do what he thinks is right. I don't agree with Muslim theology, certainly. I would be completely opposed to it. You know, the -- Islam would make Jesus Christ a prophet, along with Abraham and Moses and Mohammed and 10 or 12 of them. I was traveling...

KING: But you don't think it's evil.

JONES: No, it's not evil. Now, there are evil Muslims, as there...

KING: As there are evil Christians.

JONES: ... are evil professing Christians. But there are many Muslims who are not evil people. Absolutely.

KING: We'll take a break and come back and go to your phone calls for Dr. Bob Jones. Tomorrow night, John Eisenhower, the only living son of Dwight Eisenhower. Don't miss it. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: Before we go to your calls for Dr. Jones, you supported military action strongly, the last time you were on, in Iraq. Are you concerned that so far no weapons of mass destruction have been found?

JONES: No. I believe with all my heart that they believe that they were there. What has happened to them is anybody's guess.

I am concerned about how we disengage from our presence there. To stay too long is to give Islams added reason for hating us. And then to stay not long enough if Saddam is still alive, is to get out, and his regime will come back, and all has been lost.

I think we have to stay long enough to put some kind of a stability there, to help some kind of a democratic process take place, to get a government established. And it's a delicate balancing act that we have right now. And I'm really concerned.

KING: Are you encouraged about peace in the Middle East?

JONES: No, sir. I'm not. Not at all.

KING: Not encouraged despite the current system?

JONES: Everything -- you know, it's almost old hat to find out one morning in the newspaper great progress made toward peace in the Middle East. Only two or three days later, to find out the bottom falls out. You know that's the way it is over there.

I am in the long run very encouraged because the Bible makes it clear that this land has been given to the Jew and that God will, in his time and his way -- I'm not saying the government there now is his time and his way.

But I am saying God in his time and his way, Isaiah, Jeremiah, a great many books of the Bible talk about God putting his people there. So there will be peace. It speaks of the day the Jew will dwell in unwalled cities. That's how peaceful it will be.

KING: Is that why Evangelical Christians are so strong in support of Israel?

JONES: I think that is the motivation. I'm not sure it is always a proper motivation because What's there today is Zionism.

KING: Which you don't like?

(CROSSTALK)

JONES: It's a nationalist thing. There's no freedom of religion in Israel. I know believers there who are kept under, who are persecuted...

KING: Christian believers?

JONES: Yes. Christian believers. There's no freedom, no propagation of the gospel there. It's a very difficult thing. But it is a political state now. One day it will be a Christ honoring, messiah honoring state.

KING: Mankato, Kansas, as we go to calls for Dr. Bob Jones. Hello.

CALLER: Good evening. I'm a Christian. I was just wondering in Dr. Jones' opinion, does he believe the devil mainly focuses on individuals in tiny groups, or does the devil prefer to get a nationwide and worldwide foot hold? I'm just wondering how do these satanic groups get their instruction? Is there any orderly basis behind their efforts?

KING: Good question.

JONES: That's a very good question. I'm not sure I have all the answers to that, obviously. I think the answer is yes to all of the above.

As we mentioned earlier, Satan does seem to work in a hierarchal manner over the governments of the world. He also works in individual hearts. In the gospels, for instance, there are many stories of the Lord Jesus casting demons out of people. It talks about the Demoniac of Didera (ph), for instance, over on the eastern shore of the Sea of Galilee.

The Lord encountered, he was chained in the tombs because he was so violent. He was a demon-possessed man, and the Lord brought him to himself. The Bible says, when they went out and found him later, he was clothed and in his right mind. Great story of the Lord's power over Satan and of the power of Christ to bring peace to the heart.

So, yes, individuals, yes. Nations, yes. And the devil is active. He is across the world. He is not omnipotent, and he is not omnipresent. But he has so many minions, so many doing his bidding, that it would seem that he covers the Earth.

KING: Can a good person do bad things?

JONES: Yes.

KING: Can you be very good and have a weakness that causes you in one area of your life to do bad things?

JONES: Yes, Larry. The Bible says that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

There seems to be very a strong sentiment today as you listen to people talk that somehow because a person lives and breathes and walks on the Earth he's entitled to heaven when he dies. The Bible makes it clear that's not the way it is. that only through Christ does a man come to God. There's no other name in heaven...

(CROSSTALK)

KING: Even if you sin?

JONES: Yes. Getting saved, coming to Christ doesn't make us perfected. We will be perfected one day when we're raised from the grave. We will have a body like his glorious body. But now we are sinners saved by grace. The grace of Christ is wonderful but we still live in these old bodies.

KING: Do you ever doubt that?

JONES: Doubt what?

KING: Your faith.

JONES: No, Larry, I don't.

KING: You never do?

JONES: No. The Bible is so clear, so strong, so powerful...

(CROSSTALK)

KING: ... a child dies, you don't lose your faith? JONES: No. I don't lose my faith when an abortion clinic doctor kills a baby. I don't lose my faith when the porno presses start operating or the -- the labs creating drugs start operating. I don't lose my faith when a man's unfaithful to his wife or when other forms of sexual deviancies, homosexuality, whatever it may be, when I hear of these things.

God gives man a free will, you just mentioned that a while a ago. He legalities man make choices. He also lets man suffer the consequences of those choices.

KING: Do you believe homosexuality is a choice?

JONES: I do believe it's a choice.

KING: Why would someone choose it?

JONES: That is a very good question. I have no answer to that question.

Sin is deceitful. The Bible speaks of the homosexual in Romans, Chapter 1. And it says that God gives them up to a reprobate mind, a mind that can't think straight. And somehow, I believe that there's something about that particular sin that gets such a strange hold, an abnormal hold on people that they can't think straight. God gives them up...

KING: Can you be a Christian homosexual?

JONES: Not a practicing homosexual any more than you can be a practicing adulterer or practicing thief or practicing liar.

KING: You put them in that category?

JONES: Yes.

KING: Tampa, Florida, hello.

CALLER: yes, Larry. My question for Bob Jones is Washington D.C. has over 2,000 different certified religions. What can be done, in your opinion, to find common threads instead of the usual process of finding common differences?

JONES: I don't find any scriptural authority for finding common thread. Polytheism, religious pluralism is not taught in the Bible.

If the claims of Christ are true that he is the way, the truth, and the life and that no man comes to the father but by him, that means that God is not at the top of a mountain and all religions are going to arrive in his presence climbing up their side of the mountain. It means there's one way to him and that Christ is that way.

And that's why, as a Bible believing Christian, my passion, my desire as every Christian's desire if he understands the scripture, should be that he get the gospel to every creature, that we want everyone we know to know our savior.

KING: Temple, Texas, hello.

CALLER: Good evening. Dr. Jones, with respect to the Laci Peterson case and Scott Peterson being charged with double homicide, should a fetus be considered a viable human being?

KING: We asked that earlier, and his answer was yes.

JONES: Absolutely yes.

KING: His answer was yes.

To Port Richey, Florida. Hello.

CALLER: Yes, hi. Good evening, Larry. Hi, Dr. Jones. I agree with everything that you've said so far this evening.

How do you think the defense is going to use the satanic cult in the Laci Peterson case? Thank you.

JONES: Thank you for your question and your response.

I really am not qualified to answer that. It's out of my arena. It's in the legal arena. I have no idea. I have no idea what evidence they think they possess that would give them that kind of defense.

From where I sit -- and it's just purely a layman's point of view, like most everybody listening tonight -- it would seem to me to be a farfetched defense because I think there's so many things that could have happened to those bodies that were apparently put in the sea that could have caused the expulsion of the child, could have created the mutilation of the body.

Who knows? But it's an interesting thing to think about.

KING: More on that, by the way, on Friday night. We'll be right back with more calls for Dr. Bob Jones of Bob Jones University, Greenville, South Carolina. Don't go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: We'll get right back to calls.

In May, in response to a question from a supporter in South Carolina, Senator John Kerry, a Democratic candidate for president, a war hero, said he would love to speak at Bob Jones University in order to challenge the university on some of its views. Neither Kerry or any other Democratic hopeful has been invited.

A spokesman for the University said why would we invite someone to come and speak for the purpose of reinforcing misrepresentations? But in an era of free speech in open university, why wouldn't you want John Kerry to speak? JONES: Well, you know, Larry, it's very rare that a conservative gets to speak on a notably liberal campus. They have their agenda. They're promoting their thing...

KING: But they do speak...

JONES: Occasionally. There have few conservative. You know it's pretty much of an enclave of liberalism.

KING: But why wouldn't you want to hear Kerry's view? I mean just as an intelligent open person, wouldn't you want to hear other views? If you only hear your own views you're preaching to yourself.

JONES: Yes, that's true, Larry. But with open media today it's very easy to tune into any of these debates. There was one recently in South Carolina by these ten, whatever, liberal Democratic candidates.

We know their views. We can hear their views. It's one thing to be able to hear their views, it's another thing to promote them by bringing them and giving them a platform. We invite conservative speakers who share the views that we believe are important.

KING: Lancaster, Pennsylvania, for Dr. Bob Jones. Hello.

CALLER: Hi, Larry King. My question is are Satan and his demons two separate things? And do you believe that animals have souls?

JONES: There's absolutely no evidence in the Bible that animals have souls.

Satan is a distinct evil hater of God, a creature created of God, who is the Prince of Demons. There are many fallen angels. The Lord said in Luke Chapter 10, I saw Lucifer fall like lightning from the heavens.

The Bible says in Ephesians Chapter 6, we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of darkness of this world, against evil spirits in heavenly places. That is, places above the Earth, the air above the Earth.

Principalities, powers, there are all kinds of structures of the demon world, all headed over by their prince Lucifer, Satan, the devil, interchangeable names. He was Lucifer before he fell. He's the devil, he's Satan, he's Beezlebub. All of these names are given to him in the scripture. He rules over that kingdom.

KING: What was he doing during the time Christ walked on the Earth?

JONES: He was doing just what he's been doing ever since the Garden of Eden. He's been stirring up opposition to Christ. He was at work in the Roman government and in the Jewish religious hierarchy to put Christ on the cross, to cast God, if they could, out of their world. He was behind the scenes working in the political arena and the religious arena to try to destroy Jesus Christ. The Bible says back in Genesis that Christ would bruise Satan's head and that Satan would bruise his heel, and that's what happened when the spikes were driven into his feet on the cross.

KING: God forgives, does he not?

JONES: He forgives on the basis of his son's sacrifice on the cross.

KING: So he does not forgive Satan?

JONES: No. Satan's doom is sure. The Bible makes it very clear that he will not be repentant. He will, to the very end, oppose God, and he will be chained along with all the demons in hell, God's great prison house for eternity.

KING: A new "Harry Potter" book comes out this month. Many in the Conservative Christian community think it's witchcraft. Do you?

JONES: You know I've never read a Potter book. I've talked to a lot of people who have read Potter books.

KING: What do they tell you?

JONES: I get mixed reviews. Basically, though, I believe most would feel it does dabble in sorcery, witchcraft. Sorcery and witchcraft certainly open the mind and heart, I believe, to Satan. I don't believe that's Satanism of the sort that would destroy lives and kill people. But it opens ouija boards, seances, horoscopes, astrology...

KING: Why does that bother you? So someone reads a horoscope. So what?

JONES: I believe that -- well, for one thing, in Leviticus 18 and Deuteronomy 18 and 19, there are proscriptions, there are scriptural passages where God was telling the nation of Israel, his people that he chose to bear his name in the Earth, don't do like these pagan (UNINTELLIGIBLE) nations do. Don't kill babies, don't consult wizards, don't look at the stars to try to figure things out. God said don't. That's Satan's dominion, and those who love the Lord really have no business in that.

KING: Huntsville, Texas, hello. Hello? I'm talking to someone in Texas. Hello.

CALLER: Hello, Larry.

KING: I'm sorry. Go ahead.

CALLER: Hello.

KING: Hello. Go ahead.

CALLER: OK, Dr. Jones, do you believe in the -- Dr. Jones, do you believe in the death penalty? JONES: Yes, I do. Because I believe it's very clear that the scripture teaches this. Who so sheds man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed. Romans 13 says that the government of the king does not bear the sword in vain.

KING: How do you deal with it when you learn someone was not guilty and was killed? And that has happened.

JONES: Certainly the fault of the justice system, but that has to be weighed against the fact that the death penalty, capital punishment, is unquestionably a deterrent to murder. Man knows that he's going to pay for his life if he gets caught killing somebody. There has to be a deterrent in that.

And God has ordained it. Human beings are going to make mistakes. There are flaws. I mean are we going to do away with jails because some people are incarcerated unjustly? No. Jails serve a useful purpose...

KING: This has no redress of grievance?

JONES: No, it doesn't. But neither do the death penalties or life imprisonment. Many of those are without parole. There is no redress for those people.

KING: Unless they're found innocent and they get released, as over 100 Americans have been released from DNA evidence from a lifetime sentence, some from death row.

JONES: Yes. But I don't see how the fact that some mistakes are made in the justice system does away with the fact that the Bible clearly teaches that god has ordained the death penalty.

KING: You believe every word of the Bible, right?

JONES: I do believe the Bible absolutely authoritative in God's word.

KING: We'll be back with our remaining moments with Dr. Bob Jones of Bob Jones University. Don't go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: Scranton, Pennsylvania, with Dr. Bob Jones, hello.

CALLER: Yes. My question for Dr. Jones is, Dr. Jones, have you or any of your congregation members had experience with the demonic activity and did you think it was real?

JONES: That's a very good question.

No, I have not personally. But I know some missionaries in pagan dark places who have had most frightening encounters with demonic activity and it is real.

And as we talked about earlier on the program, in the nations where the gospel of Jesus Christ has made very little inroad and where idolatry and all forms of Satanism and witchcraft prevail, horrible frothings at the mouth, horrible self destructive things are done by people under the influence of demons.

KING: How about other Christian faiths that don't follow this? Mormonism? Catholicism? What do you think? Do you think they're wrong? They believe in Christ. They believe in being saved.

JONES: Well, as I understand Mormonism, for instance, Mormonism is a polytheistic religion that believes that God and Lucifer were brothers, and that there was a rebellion in heaven, which we know in the Bible that Lucifer did rebel, and that Jesus, the created son, sided with the father and that Lucifer, against him, was cast out and that Mormonism makes Jesus Christ a created being, not God, co-equal God, a very God, God in the flesh. It makes him just like Lucifer, only obedient to the father as opposed to Lucifer. And that's just not Bible teaching about Jesus Christ. He's God.

The Catholic faith, because of the emphasis it puts on idols, on the taking of the sacraments, the works, it is a religion of works. Keep the sacraments, do what the church says, and you'll be OK.

KING: Don't you say that?

JONES: No, I say the Bible makes it very clear. Not by works of righteousness, which we've done, but by his mercy he's saved us.

KING: So you can just -- that's all you need? Deeds don't matter.

JONES: Yes. After a man comes to Christ, deeds matter.

The Bible says this in Ephesians: We are his workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in it. Now created by good works, we're not saved by good works. But after we're saved through the grace, the mercy of Jesus Christ, then we walk in newness of life, the Bible says,

KING: Dr. Jones, we have 30 seconds. Are you an optimist?

JONES: Very much so, because I believe the Bible. I know how the last chapter of world history will come out. Jesus Christ will rule and reign in this world for 1,000 years, from Jerusalem, from the rebuilt Jewish temple in Jerusalem.

KING: In your lifetime?

JONES: The Bible doesn't give us any timetable.

I expect to see him come for the rapture of the church. I expect it any day, any moment. And how can I not be optimistic knowing that, because I'm in Christ, as any believer in Christ, I will be with the lord for eternity?

KING: Thank you, Bob.

JONES: Thank you, Larry.

KING: Dr. Bob Jones, president, Bob Jones University, Greenville, South Carolina.

I'll be back in a minute to tell you about tomorrow night and some other things too.

Don't go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: Sports fans, it's Wednesday. Don't forget to read my column, "Sports a la King." It's posted every week on CNN Sports Illustrated on the Web. The address to get right to it is www.si.com/larryking.

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