Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Live Today

Interview With Asra Nomani

Aired June 04, 2003 - 10:33   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


LEON HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: In the African nation of Nigeria, an Islamic court has delayed the appeal of a woman condemned to death by stoning. The court says it will not hear this case until late August. The 31-year-old mother of three was convicted in March of having sex outside of marriage. Three other Nigerians are also facing stoning deaths for the same crime.
Now the prosecution of premarital or extramarital sex is not quite as rare as you might think. Our next guest this morning faced 100 lashes for premarital sex in Pakistan. She was there as a journalist in the wake of the 9/11 attacks. Asra Nomani has written about her experience in the book "Tantrika: Traveling the Road of Divine Love."

She is a "Wall Street Journal" reporter who is now on leave. She joins us now to tell us her story. Thank you for coming in to share this with us this morning. As I understand it, you say that you were facing a sentence of 100 lashes, you had not yet been sentenced that?

ASRA NOMANI, AUTHOR, "TANTRIKA": It wasn't that far, but it was the threat of such -- of such punishment that I could have faced. I was in Pakistan when I conceived my baby, and you don't know what's going to happen. You don't know if you are going to be taken to jail. You don't know if you're going to end up just having to slink away in hiding. So I left the country, in part because I knew that I couldn't live with that fear.

HARRIS: Now, see we have a shot right now of you and your little son. But as I -- you feared that you could actually suffer that penalty, even though you were not a citizen of Pakistan?

NOMANI: You know, you just never know what's going to happen when you've got laws like that. I had been reading the newspaper. Not long after I found out that I was pregnant, and I saw the case of Dafran Bebe (ph), a young woman who had actually gotten pregnant from rape. She had gone in to try to pursue the rape allegation, instead she got charged with zina. That's the Arabic term for illegal sex, and that's sort of the scarlet letter in Islam right now.

HARRIS: So how often does this happen, do you think? Does it really happen quite often around the world?

NOMANI: It happens a lot. I have talked to so many of these incredible women's rights groups in Muslim countries, and they're fighting so hard to reverse these laws and to protect these women, but they're doing it with, also, a lot of fear for their own lives, because they're considered non-Islamic, or they are considered to be promiscuous.

HARRIS: But how many women, do you think, we are talking about every single year that might be facing this?

NOMANI: Well, in Pakistan, the laws were passed in 1979. There were so few women in jail at the time, in 1980. But last year, there were 1,800 women in jail, and human rights folks in Pakistan think that as many as 80 percent might have been in jail for these kind of crimes.

HARRIS: Now, the people out there who may be just now hearing about this story, Amina Lawal, who is the Nigerian woman who is facing this, she was actually supposed to be executed. I believe yesterday was the day of her original execution date, but that's been since postponed. And as I understand this, Asra, the way this law works is that, if she had had four people who witnessed the act of the conception, and had agreed with her side of the story, she would have been acquitted, but no one believes that that could ever even be possible?

NOMANI: Well, the way the law is set up, you have to have four witnesses to actually convict you.

HARRIS: Oh.

NOMANI: So for that reason, a lot of the men are able to get off because there is no four witnesses to conception in most cases. But what's happened is that most conservative and fundamentalists have used an element of Islamic law that says that pregnancy is evidence of crime, and so Amina Lawal's little daughter was evidence of her crime.

HARRIS: Let me ask you this -- is that anywhere in the Koran? For someone who does not know and has not -- and will admit that he has not read the entire Koran, is that the kind of thing that someone who would study the Koran would find inside of it?

NOMANI: I'm no scholar of Islam also, but when I was in the midst of my, just, deep shame over having confronted this issue for my own self, I searched and I have the resources available to talk to scholars, and they say that there's so much dispute and that ultimately, Shariah doesn't have to punish a woman for motherhood, that in fact, we need to go to the fundamentals of Islam, which is compassion and kindness and love, which is what I found within my family, so I was able to actually find refuge in my religion.

HARRIS: So what happens to the men in these cases? What happens -- for instance, what happened to the father of your son?

NOMANI: Well, he couldn't kind of commit and get beyond the cultural and personal divide that is not even about religion and personal issues sometimes...

HARRIS: What? He abandoned you?

NOMANI: Well -- you want to -- you don't want to be so -- you know, you hope that -- I'm not answering you clearly, because -- I'm struggling with it, aren't I?

HARRIS: It sounds like it. Why is that so hard to say, if that's what happened then?

NOMANI: I know, it is hard to say because ultimately, this is the psychological dimension of this, so even when you're not physically stoned for this kind of -- quote-unquote -- "crime," you are struggling with a lot of the psychic element of shame. I mean, it's not -- it wasn't my plan to not have a father for my child when I was going to be a mother. And so this is the personal issue that we all have to deal with when you decide to take on tradition, I guess.

HARRIS: That's amazing. And that's how pained you feel about it, and you're not in jail right now somewhere in Nigeria as Amina Lawal is. We'll have to continue to follow her story, her case, and perhaps we can talk about, now, all of this again with you down the road. Fascinating.

NOMANI: Thank you so much.

HARRIS: Troubling, but fascinating.

NOMANI: It is.

HARRIS: Asra Nomani, thank you very much. Good luck to you and your son.

NOMANI: Thank you so much.

HARRIS: You always have to wonder how the children are going to turn out with these kind of stories.

NOMANI: You have got to care about the children, that is what it is.

HARRIS: Yes. Definitely.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com







Aired June 4, 2003 - 10:33   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LEON HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: In the African nation of Nigeria, an Islamic court has delayed the appeal of a woman condemned to death by stoning. The court says it will not hear this case until late August. The 31-year-old mother of three was convicted in March of having sex outside of marriage. Three other Nigerians are also facing stoning deaths for the same crime.
Now the prosecution of premarital or extramarital sex is not quite as rare as you might think. Our next guest this morning faced 100 lashes for premarital sex in Pakistan. She was there as a journalist in the wake of the 9/11 attacks. Asra Nomani has written about her experience in the book "Tantrika: Traveling the Road of Divine Love."

She is a "Wall Street Journal" reporter who is now on leave. She joins us now to tell us her story. Thank you for coming in to share this with us this morning. As I understand it, you say that you were facing a sentence of 100 lashes, you had not yet been sentenced that?

ASRA NOMANI, AUTHOR, "TANTRIKA": It wasn't that far, but it was the threat of such -- of such punishment that I could have faced. I was in Pakistan when I conceived my baby, and you don't know what's going to happen. You don't know if you are going to be taken to jail. You don't know if you're going to end up just having to slink away in hiding. So I left the country, in part because I knew that I couldn't live with that fear.

HARRIS: Now, see we have a shot right now of you and your little son. But as I -- you feared that you could actually suffer that penalty, even though you were not a citizen of Pakistan?

NOMANI: You know, you just never know what's going to happen when you've got laws like that. I had been reading the newspaper. Not long after I found out that I was pregnant, and I saw the case of Dafran Bebe (ph), a young woman who had actually gotten pregnant from rape. She had gone in to try to pursue the rape allegation, instead she got charged with zina. That's the Arabic term for illegal sex, and that's sort of the scarlet letter in Islam right now.

HARRIS: So how often does this happen, do you think? Does it really happen quite often around the world?

NOMANI: It happens a lot. I have talked to so many of these incredible women's rights groups in Muslim countries, and they're fighting so hard to reverse these laws and to protect these women, but they're doing it with, also, a lot of fear for their own lives, because they're considered non-Islamic, or they are considered to be promiscuous.

HARRIS: But how many women, do you think, we are talking about every single year that might be facing this?

NOMANI: Well, in Pakistan, the laws were passed in 1979. There were so few women in jail at the time, in 1980. But last year, there were 1,800 women in jail, and human rights folks in Pakistan think that as many as 80 percent might have been in jail for these kind of crimes.

HARRIS: Now, the people out there who may be just now hearing about this story, Amina Lawal, who is the Nigerian woman who is facing this, she was actually supposed to be executed. I believe yesterday was the day of her original execution date, but that's been since postponed. And as I understand this, Asra, the way this law works is that, if she had had four people who witnessed the act of the conception, and had agreed with her side of the story, she would have been acquitted, but no one believes that that could ever even be possible?

NOMANI: Well, the way the law is set up, you have to have four witnesses to actually convict you.

HARRIS: Oh.

NOMANI: So for that reason, a lot of the men are able to get off because there is no four witnesses to conception in most cases. But what's happened is that most conservative and fundamentalists have used an element of Islamic law that says that pregnancy is evidence of crime, and so Amina Lawal's little daughter was evidence of her crime.

HARRIS: Let me ask you this -- is that anywhere in the Koran? For someone who does not know and has not -- and will admit that he has not read the entire Koran, is that the kind of thing that someone who would study the Koran would find inside of it?

NOMANI: I'm no scholar of Islam also, but when I was in the midst of my, just, deep shame over having confronted this issue for my own self, I searched and I have the resources available to talk to scholars, and they say that there's so much dispute and that ultimately, Shariah doesn't have to punish a woman for motherhood, that in fact, we need to go to the fundamentals of Islam, which is compassion and kindness and love, which is what I found within my family, so I was able to actually find refuge in my religion.

HARRIS: So what happens to the men in these cases? What happens -- for instance, what happened to the father of your son?

NOMANI: Well, he couldn't kind of commit and get beyond the cultural and personal divide that is not even about religion and personal issues sometimes...

HARRIS: What? He abandoned you?

NOMANI: Well -- you want to -- you don't want to be so -- you know, you hope that -- I'm not answering you clearly, because -- I'm struggling with it, aren't I?

HARRIS: It sounds like it. Why is that so hard to say, if that's what happened then?

NOMANI: I know, it is hard to say because ultimately, this is the psychological dimension of this, so even when you're not physically stoned for this kind of -- quote-unquote -- "crime," you are struggling with a lot of the psychic element of shame. I mean, it's not -- it wasn't my plan to not have a father for my child when I was going to be a mother. And so this is the personal issue that we all have to deal with when you decide to take on tradition, I guess.

HARRIS: That's amazing. And that's how pained you feel about it, and you're not in jail right now somewhere in Nigeria as Amina Lawal is. We'll have to continue to follow her story, her case, and perhaps we can talk about, now, all of this again with you down the road. Fascinating.

NOMANI: Thank you so much.

HARRIS: Troubling, but fascinating.

NOMANI: It is.

HARRIS: Asra Nomani, thank you very much. Good luck to you and your son.

NOMANI: Thank you so much.

HARRIS: You always have to wonder how the children are going to turn out with these kind of stories.

NOMANI: You have got to care about the children, that is what it is.

HARRIS: Yes. Definitely.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com