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CNN Live At Daybreak
Week of Violent Tit for Tat in Middle East
Aired June 12, 2003 - 05:02 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: Bloodshed in the Holy Land. It has been a week of violent tit for tat in the Middle East. The latest last night. Three Palestinian militants were killed in an Israeli missile attack in Gaza. It comes after a suicide bomber dressed as an ultra orthodox Jew blew up a bus in Jerusalem earlier yesterday. Sixteen people were killed. Hamas says the bomber was one of theirs.
On Tuesday, Israeli forces hit two Hamas targets, killing five people. The Hamas leader who survived one of those attacks said Wednesday's bombing was a retaliatory strike.
And Israel says the Hamas leader was targeted because he played a major role in coordinating an attack Sunday that killed four Israeli border guards.
Our Chris Burns at the White House tells us as the body count goes up, the chances for peace grow dimmer and dimmer.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHRIS BURNS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A day after diplomatically riding herd on Israel, President Bush faces yet more Mideast turmoil. He lashes out at Palestinian militants he says are intent on scuttling the road map to peace.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It is clear there are people in the Middle East who hate peace.
BURNS: The president appears to hold out hope the new Palestinian prime minister, Mahmoud Abbas, can forge a truce among the militants, though there's growing frustration in the Bush administration with Abbas' current inability to do so. This, as Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon seeks to neutralize the militants by force.
MARTIN INDYK, SABAN CENTER FOR MIDEAST POLICY: The road map is not dead yet, but it is in a coma and it's essentially on life support until and unless the president can find a way to get Prime Minister Abbas to act to stop the terrorism and in the process to get Prime Minister Sharon to hold back.
BURNS: Instead of direct public pressure on either side, the president calls on the world -- read Arab world -- to help shut down the militants' sources of support.
BUSH: I strongly urge all of you to fight off terror, to cut off money to organizations such as Hamas, to isolate those who hate so much that they're willing to kill to stop peace from going forward.
BURNS: But for a second day, the president avoids reporters' questions.
QUESTION: Would you still be justifying going after Hamas, sir?
BURNS: Little more overt action beyond reports of feverish phone contacts with the Middle East and plans for the promised U.S. troubleshooting team to arrive in the region in the coming days.
(on camera): Unable to break the latest spiral of violence, President Bush is avoiding getting any deeper publicly into a deteriorating situation. And though he's committed to going the distance in the peace process, he's leaving it up to behind the scenes diplomacy for now and hoping for a period of calm.
Chris Burns, CNN, the White House.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COSTELLO: All right, so has the violence stopped in the Middle East as of right now?
Let's head live to Jerusalem and check in with Jerrold Kessel -- is all quiet now, Jessel? Or, I mean Jerrold. I'm sorry.
JERROLD KESSEL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's OK, Carol.
Well, yes, it is quiet as of now, this morning. But the immediate concern on both sides is the human dimension and dealing with the dead, if you like, and looking to the wounded and counting the scars of yesterday's vortex of violence.
Funerals are just under way in Gaza for the Hamas men. Four Palestinian militants were killed in those two Israeli air strikes; also, five Palestinian bystanders, as the Israeli missiles targeted two cars of militants down in Gaza. And here in Jerusalem, the funerals will also begin later of 16 of the -- some of the 16 people who were killed by the bomber, the suicide bomber aboard Bus Number 14 in the heart of Jerusalem.
Many of the dead have now been identified, although not all of them, and many of them are said to be elderly people who were either going home from work, men and women, or heading into the center of the city for shopping.
Of the wounded -- more than 100 were wounded -- 28 remained in hospital this morning, six of whom in serious condition. And Israelis saying that as many bombings as they've been through, and there have been all too many, they still can't get used to the idea that this is part of their lives. Many of them are also saying that they believe this is something that they may have to live with for some time to come -- Carol.
COSTELLO: Jerrold Kessel live from Jerusalem.
Many thanks.
We want to get more perspective on this violence and its effects on peace efforts from the former Lebanese ambassador to the Arab League.
Clovis Maksoud joins us live on the phone from Beirut.
Good morning.
CLOVIS MAKSOUD, FORMER AMBASSADOR, ARAB LEAGUE: Good morning.
COSTELLO: You are going to attend the Arab League meetings.
Will they talk about this? Will they act? MAKSOUD: Well, the Arab League definitely are going to be discussing the consequences of what took place in the last few days. However, there is a general request in the Arab world to know what is the map to which the road map is planning to introduce. That is, the question is that the map remains vague and therefore the outcome of any kind of negotiations that the road map has planning is not known. And that is why it becomes vulnerable to the extremists on both sides to interpret it the way they want.
On the one hand...
COSTELLO: Well, Mr. Maksoud, something that is clear in the road map, that the suicide bombings must stop and the retaliatory violence must stop. That is clear in the road map.
MAKSOUD: Yes, that is clear. But the fact that both these extremists on both sides are not sure what is the outcome. What -- the outcome is not defined, the outcome of the negotiations. What is defined is the process, but not the outcome. And as long as there is no outcome which is clear and acceptable to both sides, presumably, then naturally there is going to be a vulnerability.
The Palestinian side has always said you promised us in Camp David that there would -- that's the only game in town. Oslo is the only game in town. And now the Americans are saying that the only game in town is the road map.
And so for the last 20 years or 30 years, they have been promised that this is the only game in town and they want to have a simultaneous game and unfortunately (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...
COSTELLO: Well, eventually, there is the promise...
MAKSOUD: They will play this game...
COSTELLO: Allow me to interrupt for just a moment, sir. There is the promise of a Palestinian state by 2005. Surely, though, anything is better than continued -- than this continued cycle of violence.
Doesn't it have to start somewhere? MAKSOUD: I agree. I agree. Nobody is saying no, except that the -- when you say there is a promise of a state, it has to have a parameters of the outcome of what constitutes the state, not only an amorphous concept that there will be two states.
What is the state? How much of the territory that has been occupied since '67 is going to be allocated as an independent state for the Palestinians? When that is clear...
COSTELLO: But, sir, how can these questions be answered and negotiated when the violence just keeps on happening? MAKSOUD: I agree. The violence keeps on happening because the violence of the side of the strong, namely on Israel, is able to create a state of frustration and helplessness that just explodes on the part in terrorism. And that is what nobody is addressing. If they seek priority to defuse the incentive for violence, it has to be defused. And it cannot be defused as long as there is proliferation of settlements, increase of settlements, distortion of the demographic as well as the geographic arena in which the Palestinians are living.
COSTELLO: Well, Israel has at least started to dismantle some of those outposts but that apparently is not enough.
MAKSOUD: Well, these are...
COSTELLO: Let me ask you this question, though.
MAKSOUD: Yes, that's correct. But these are minor, these are minor and they do not constitute a serious dismantlement of the territories that make the Palestinian state, which is promised, contiguous geographically.
COSTELLO: Let me ask you this...
MAKSOUD: And that is why...
COSTELLO: I'm interested in this...
MAKSOUD: This...
COSTELLO: Let me ask you this. Can anyone control Hamas? Yasser Arafat? Mahmoud Abbas? Can anyone control Hamas?
MAKSOUD: Well, I think the question of control, but they can persuade and I think the fact that the United States and Israel are trying to marginalize or penalize Mr. Arafat and promote Mr. Abu Mazen as an alternative, that is also adding to the confusion because the attempt to say that Abu Mazen is the alternative to Yasser Arafat constitutes an incentive for Arafat not to exercise his tremendous moral authority on the people of Palestine.
And I am surprised that -- I mean, they are embarrassing Mr. Abu Mazen, the prime minister. They are putting him in a position where he's perceived to be no longer part of the Palestinian establishment, the existing establishment, but only an instrument for the security of the people of Israel. And that is a mistake. That is a fundamental mistake, I think, and the fact that sometimes the United States objects to Europeans meeting Yasser Arafat is mind boggling.
COSTELLO: I understand.
Clovis Maksoud, thanks very much for joining us live on DAYBREAK this morning.
And you can get details on the Middle East violence plus our video gallery on our Web site. Just click onto cnn.com, AOL keyword: CNN.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired June 12, 2003 - 05:02 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: Bloodshed in the Holy Land. It has been a week of violent tit for tat in the Middle East. The latest last night. Three Palestinian militants were killed in an Israeli missile attack in Gaza. It comes after a suicide bomber dressed as an ultra orthodox Jew blew up a bus in Jerusalem earlier yesterday. Sixteen people were killed. Hamas says the bomber was one of theirs.
On Tuesday, Israeli forces hit two Hamas targets, killing five people. The Hamas leader who survived one of those attacks said Wednesday's bombing was a retaliatory strike.
And Israel says the Hamas leader was targeted because he played a major role in coordinating an attack Sunday that killed four Israeli border guards.
Our Chris Burns at the White House tells us as the body count goes up, the chances for peace grow dimmer and dimmer.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHRIS BURNS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A day after diplomatically riding herd on Israel, President Bush faces yet more Mideast turmoil. He lashes out at Palestinian militants he says are intent on scuttling the road map to peace.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It is clear there are people in the Middle East who hate peace.
BURNS: The president appears to hold out hope the new Palestinian prime minister, Mahmoud Abbas, can forge a truce among the militants, though there's growing frustration in the Bush administration with Abbas' current inability to do so. This, as Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon seeks to neutralize the militants by force.
MARTIN INDYK, SABAN CENTER FOR MIDEAST POLICY: The road map is not dead yet, but it is in a coma and it's essentially on life support until and unless the president can find a way to get Prime Minister Abbas to act to stop the terrorism and in the process to get Prime Minister Sharon to hold back.
BURNS: Instead of direct public pressure on either side, the president calls on the world -- read Arab world -- to help shut down the militants' sources of support.
BUSH: I strongly urge all of you to fight off terror, to cut off money to organizations such as Hamas, to isolate those who hate so much that they're willing to kill to stop peace from going forward.
BURNS: But for a second day, the president avoids reporters' questions.
QUESTION: Would you still be justifying going after Hamas, sir?
BURNS: Little more overt action beyond reports of feverish phone contacts with the Middle East and plans for the promised U.S. troubleshooting team to arrive in the region in the coming days.
(on camera): Unable to break the latest spiral of violence, President Bush is avoiding getting any deeper publicly into a deteriorating situation. And though he's committed to going the distance in the peace process, he's leaving it up to behind the scenes diplomacy for now and hoping for a period of calm.
Chris Burns, CNN, the White House.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COSTELLO: All right, so has the violence stopped in the Middle East as of right now?
Let's head live to Jerusalem and check in with Jerrold Kessel -- is all quiet now, Jessel? Or, I mean Jerrold. I'm sorry.
JERROLD KESSEL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's OK, Carol.
Well, yes, it is quiet as of now, this morning. But the immediate concern on both sides is the human dimension and dealing with the dead, if you like, and looking to the wounded and counting the scars of yesterday's vortex of violence.
Funerals are just under way in Gaza for the Hamas men. Four Palestinian militants were killed in those two Israeli air strikes; also, five Palestinian bystanders, as the Israeli missiles targeted two cars of militants down in Gaza. And here in Jerusalem, the funerals will also begin later of 16 of the -- some of the 16 people who were killed by the bomber, the suicide bomber aboard Bus Number 14 in the heart of Jerusalem.
Many of the dead have now been identified, although not all of them, and many of them are said to be elderly people who were either going home from work, men and women, or heading into the center of the city for shopping.
Of the wounded -- more than 100 were wounded -- 28 remained in hospital this morning, six of whom in serious condition. And Israelis saying that as many bombings as they've been through, and there have been all too many, they still can't get used to the idea that this is part of their lives. Many of them are also saying that they believe this is something that they may have to live with for some time to come -- Carol.
COSTELLO: Jerrold Kessel live from Jerusalem.
Many thanks.
We want to get more perspective on this violence and its effects on peace efforts from the former Lebanese ambassador to the Arab League.
Clovis Maksoud joins us live on the phone from Beirut.
Good morning.
CLOVIS MAKSOUD, FORMER AMBASSADOR, ARAB LEAGUE: Good morning.
COSTELLO: You are going to attend the Arab League meetings.
Will they talk about this? Will they act? MAKSOUD: Well, the Arab League definitely are going to be discussing the consequences of what took place in the last few days. However, there is a general request in the Arab world to know what is the map to which the road map is planning to introduce. That is, the question is that the map remains vague and therefore the outcome of any kind of negotiations that the road map has planning is not known. And that is why it becomes vulnerable to the extremists on both sides to interpret it the way they want.
On the one hand...
COSTELLO: Well, Mr. Maksoud, something that is clear in the road map, that the suicide bombings must stop and the retaliatory violence must stop. That is clear in the road map.
MAKSOUD: Yes, that is clear. But the fact that both these extremists on both sides are not sure what is the outcome. What -- the outcome is not defined, the outcome of the negotiations. What is defined is the process, but not the outcome. And as long as there is no outcome which is clear and acceptable to both sides, presumably, then naturally there is going to be a vulnerability.
The Palestinian side has always said you promised us in Camp David that there would -- that's the only game in town. Oslo is the only game in town. And now the Americans are saying that the only game in town is the road map.
And so for the last 20 years or 30 years, they have been promised that this is the only game in town and they want to have a simultaneous game and unfortunately (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...
COSTELLO: Well, eventually, there is the promise...
MAKSOUD: They will play this game...
COSTELLO: Allow me to interrupt for just a moment, sir. There is the promise of a Palestinian state by 2005. Surely, though, anything is better than continued -- than this continued cycle of violence.
Doesn't it have to start somewhere? MAKSOUD: I agree. I agree. Nobody is saying no, except that the -- when you say there is a promise of a state, it has to have a parameters of the outcome of what constitutes the state, not only an amorphous concept that there will be two states.
What is the state? How much of the territory that has been occupied since '67 is going to be allocated as an independent state for the Palestinians? When that is clear...
COSTELLO: But, sir, how can these questions be answered and negotiated when the violence just keeps on happening? MAKSOUD: I agree. The violence keeps on happening because the violence of the side of the strong, namely on Israel, is able to create a state of frustration and helplessness that just explodes on the part in terrorism. And that is what nobody is addressing. If they seek priority to defuse the incentive for violence, it has to be defused. And it cannot be defused as long as there is proliferation of settlements, increase of settlements, distortion of the demographic as well as the geographic arena in which the Palestinians are living.
COSTELLO: Well, Israel has at least started to dismantle some of those outposts but that apparently is not enough.
MAKSOUD: Well, these are...
COSTELLO: Let me ask you this question, though.
MAKSOUD: Yes, that's correct. But these are minor, these are minor and they do not constitute a serious dismantlement of the territories that make the Palestinian state, which is promised, contiguous geographically.
COSTELLO: Let me ask you this...
MAKSOUD: And that is why...
COSTELLO: I'm interested in this...
MAKSOUD: This...
COSTELLO: Let me ask you this. Can anyone control Hamas? Yasser Arafat? Mahmoud Abbas? Can anyone control Hamas?
MAKSOUD: Well, I think the question of control, but they can persuade and I think the fact that the United States and Israel are trying to marginalize or penalize Mr. Arafat and promote Mr. Abu Mazen as an alternative, that is also adding to the confusion because the attempt to say that Abu Mazen is the alternative to Yasser Arafat constitutes an incentive for Arafat not to exercise his tremendous moral authority on the people of Palestine.
And I am surprised that -- I mean, they are embarrassing Mr. Abu Mazen, the prime minister. They are putting him in a position where he's perceived to be no longer part of the Palestinian establishment, the existing establishment, but only an instrument for the security of the people of Israel. And that is a mistake. That is a fundamental mistake, I think, and the fact that sometimes the United States objects to Europeans meeting Yasser Arafat is mind boggling.
COSTELLO: I understand.
Clovis Maksoud, thanks very much for joining us live on DAYBREAK this morning.
And you can get details on the Middle East violence plus our video gallery on our Web site. Just click onto cnn.com, AOL keyword: CNN.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
