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CNN Saturday Morning News

Interview With Jim Walsh

Aired June 14, 2003 - 07:33   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


THOMAS ROBERTS, CNN ANCHOR: We want to talk more about the potential implications of someone trying to sell radioactive material and putting it on the open market for sale. You know, authorities in Bangkok, Thailand have just busted a man suspected of trying to sell that radioactive material.
We're joined now by Dr. Jim Walsh of Harvard University. He's here to fill us in on exactly what we're talking about here.

Doctor, thanks for joining us.

I guess first off, explain exactly what we're talking about here, cesium, or cesium, as some people call it. Give us a little background on that.

JIM WALSH, HARVARD UNIVERSITY: Well, cesium is one of the handful of radioactive materials that people who study dirty bombs like myself worry about. Why? Because cesium comes in a particular form, a powder form that lends itself to use in a dirty bomb. And it's also very widespread. It's used in industrial applications, medical applications, agricultural applications. So it's widespread, it comes in a form suitable for bombs and it is highly radioactive. So it's something we're very concerned about.

In fact, despite what the seller in Thailand thought, actually, cesium, I think, when it comes to a dirty bomb, is worse than uranium.

ROBERTS: So, Dr. Walsh, if we, you know, as we understand it, this guy was trying to sell cesium on the black market there in Thailand. I guess how big of a marketplace is there for people out there that want to buy this?

WALSH: Well, it's a good question, Thomas. In the past, we've focused primarily on nuclear materials that might end up in a nuclear weapon, not a dirty bomb. So we focused on plutonium and highly enriched uranium. And we know that in the past, since about 1990, there has been a black market. The International Atomic Energy Agency says there's something like 400 incidents of people trying to smuggle or steal or sell those materials.

But a black market in radiological materials for a dirty bomb, that's something new and that's very troubling.

And what is particularly troubling in this case is the very large amount of cesium. We're talking about over 60 pounds of cesium. And so I think that is troubling, indeed. ROBERTS: Here we're seeing some of the video of that arrest. So this guy gets a hold of the cesium, tries to sell it to undercover agents. But if we back track before that, where does he get his hands on it to try and then sell it on the black market?

WALSH: Well, it's early to say. But it looks like he got it in Laos and then the original source of the material was probably Russia. And this goes back to something that you and I have probably talked about in times past, which is we are not doing a sufficiently good job in protecting radiological and nuclear material in the former Soviet Union. You know, homeland security ironically begins abroad. If we want to protect ourselves here at home, we'd better make sure that that nuclear and radiological material in the Soviet Union and elsewhere is secure. And to date, it is not as secure as it should be.

ROBERTS: So if it has a potential origin, say, of Laos, like you said, I guess how hard is it to get out of a country like that?

WALSH: Unfortunately, it is not difficult at all. Why? Because even countries without civilian nuclear power plants or without nuclear weapons, even if those countries don't have those sorts of activities, they have medical, agricultural, mining activities and that means that they will have cesium and they will have other radiological materials.

There are millions and millions of sources spread out throughout the entire globe in virtually every country and that's why it's such a big job.

ROBERTS: Doctor, how has this changed, I guess now, the thought of, you know, how the progress is going for the war on terrorism and exactly how many other guys like this could possibly be out there?

WALSH: Well, it's troubling. The last thing we want is to have a whole black market develop around radiological materials like the black market started to evolve around materials for a nuclear weapon. I think it would be deeply troubling, in part because the materials for a radiological device, a dirty bomb, are more common, more widespread. So it would be a more difficult challenge.

But we've got to do something. We, if we don't do something, we're going to regret the day when that bomb goes off and we have to respond to it then.

ROBERTS: And when it comes to this, you know, the would be buyers in this type of situation, in this one it was undercover agents. But who around the globe is trying to pick up this stuff?

WALSH: Well, on the enforcement side, again, what we have is almost a mirror of what happened in the old days, in the early 1990s, when we were concerned that people were selling plutonium and highly enriched uranium, where we had lots of sting operations. In the old days they were in Germany and Eastern Europe trying to stop material from the former Soviet Union. And now we are again running sting operations. It's going to be Customs officials. It's going to be Interpol. And my own guess is that the IAEA, the International Atomic Energy Agency, which is very concerned about this topic, will also be cooperating with national and international police agencies.

ROBERTS: Dr. Walsh, we could probably talk about this all morning, but we've got to run.

We appreciate your time.

Dr. Jim Walsh from Harvard University.

Jim, thanks very much.

WALSH: Thank you, Thomas.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com







Aired June 14, 2003 - 07:33   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THOMAS ROBERTS, CNN ANCHOR: We want to talk more about the potential implications of someone trying to sell radioactive material and putting it on the open market for sale. You know, authorities in Bangkok, Thailand have just busted a man suspected of trying to sell that radioactive material.
We're joined now by Dr. Jim Walsh of Harvard University. He's here to fill us in on exactly what we're talking about here.

Doctor, thanks for joining us.

I guess first off, explain exactly what we're talking about here, cesium, or cesium, as some people call it. Give us a little background on that.

JIM WALSH, HARVARD UNIVERSITY: Well, cesium is one of the handful of radioactive materials that people who study dirty bombs like myself worry about. Why? Because cesium comes in a particular form, a powder form that lends itself to use in a dirty bomb. And it's also very widespread. It's used in industrial applications, medical applications, agricultural applications. So it's widespread, it comes in a form suitable for bombs and it is highly radioactive. So it's something we're very concerned about.

In fact, despite what the seller in Thailand thought, actually, cesium, I think, when it comes to a dirty bomb, is worse than uranium.

ROBERTS: So, Dr. Walsh, if we, you know, as we understand it, this guy was trying to sell cesium on the black market there in Thailand. I guess how big of a marketplace is there for people out there that want to buy this?

WALSH: Well, it's a good question, Thomas. In the past, we've focused primarily on nuclear materials that might end up in a nuclear weapon, not a dirty bomb. So we focused on plutonium and highly enriched uranium. And we know that in the past, since about 1990, there has been a black market. The International Atomic Energy Agency says there's something like 400 incidents of people trying to smuggle or steal or sell those materials.

But a black market in radiological materials for a dirty bomb, that's something new and that's very troubling.

And what is particularly troubling in this case is the very large amount of cesium. We're talking about over 60 pounds of cesium. And so I think that is troubling, indeed. ROBERTS: Here we're seeing some of the video of that arrest. So this guy gets a hold of the cesium, tries to sell it to undercover agents. But if we back track before that, where does he get his hands on it to try and then sell it on the black market?

WALSH: Well, it's early to say. But it looks like he got it in Laos and then the original source of the material was probably Russia. And this goes back to something that you and I have probably talked about in times past, which is we are not doing a sufficiently good job in protecting radiological and nuclear material in the former Soviet Union. You know, homeland security ironically begins abroad. If we want to protect ourselves here at home, we'd better make sure that that nuclear and radiological material in the Soviet Union and elsewhere is secure. And to date, it is not as secure as it should be.

ROBERTS: So if it has a potential origin, say, of Laos, like you said, I guess how hard is it to get out of a country like that?

WALSH: Unfortunately, it is not difficult at all. Why? Because even countries without civilian nuclear power plants or without nuclear weapons, even if those countries don't have those sorts of activities, they have medical, agricultural, mining activities and that means that they will have cesium and they will have other radiological materials.

There are millions and millions of sources spread out throughout the entire globe in virtually every country and that's why it's such a big job.

ROBERTS: Doctor, how has this changed, I guess now, the thought of, you know, how the progress is going for the war on terrorism and exactly how many other guys like this could possibly be out there?

WALSH: Well, it's troubling. The last thing we want is to have a whole black market develop around radiological materials like the black market started to evolve around materials for a nuclear weapon. I think it would be deeply troubling, in part because the materials for a radiological device, a dirty bomb, are more common, more widespread. So it would be a more difficult challenge.

But we've got to do something. We, if we don't do something, we're going to regret the day when that bomb goes off and we have to respond to it then.

ROBERTS: And when it comes to this, you know, the would be buyers in this type of situation, in this one it was undercover agents. But who around the globe is trying to pick up this stuff?

WALSH: Well, on the enforcement side, again, what we have is almost a mirror of what happened in the old days, in the early 1990s, when we were concerned that people were selling plutonium and highly enriched uranium, where we had lots of sting operations. In the old days they were in Germany and Eastern Europe trying to stop material from the former Soviet Union. And now we are again running sting operations. It's going to be Customs officials. It's going to be Interpol. And my own guess is that the IAEA, the International Atomic Energy Agency, which is very concerned about this topic, will also be cooperating with national and international police agencies.

ROBERTS: Dr. Walsh, we could probably talk about this all morning, but we've got to run.

We appreciate your time.

Dr. Jim Walsh from Harvard University.

Jim, thanks very much.

WALSH: Thank you, Thomas.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com