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Interview With Jack Burkman, Dan Perez

Aired June 20, 2003 - 14:34   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: Barbie? A lesbian? Well, that's the message on a T-shirt worn by a middle school student in Queens. And now the girl's mother is suing the city of New York over what happened after her daughter showed up for class. Glen Thompson of affiliate station WPIX fills us in.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GLEN THOMPSON, WPIX CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): 14-year-old Nicky Young shows off the "Barbie is a lesbian" t-shirt that got her in hot water at Middle School 210 in Ozone Park, Queens. Nicky, who is openly gay, says the school's principal also took offense at her gay pride beads.

NICKY YOUNG, MIDDLE SCHOOL STUDENT: I went to school with a t- shirt that said "Barbie is a lesbian," and they held me in a room for two hours and they said, it's not appropriate to wear, I should take it off and I didn't have any other clothing. So I told them, I'm not going to take it off.

THOMPSON: After being held in the principal's office, Nicky's mother had to come get her after she was suspended for refusing to take off the shirt.

YOUNG: Everybody should be treated equally, and I think that I was treated differently because of my sexual orientation, and I don't think it was fair and what they did was kind of rude, and to me it was childish.

THOMPSON: Nicky says she was only goofing on Mattel's widely popular Barbie doll and didn't mean to offend anyone. Her lawsuit against the school system claims she had a right to wear the t-shirt. The Department of Education isn't commenting.

DAN PEREZ, ATTORNEY: The First Amendment doesn't stop at the school house door, and students have the right generally to wear a variety of clothing that contains social and political commentary, as well as engage in symbolic speech.

THOMPSON (on camera): Nicky's lawsuit seeks an unspecified amount in monetary damages and an injunction preventing the school system from suspending her if she ever wears the t-shirt again. I'm Glen Thompson, for the WB11 News at 10.

(END VIDEOTAPE) PHILLIPS: School and city representatives have declined to comment on this, but Natalie Young's attorney, Dan Perez, is talking, and in Washington, attorney Jack Burkman has agreed to look at this from the school district's point of view. Gentlemen, thanks for being with me.

Good afternoon. Dan, let's start with you. Mom -- I'm looking at the charges here. Mom is saying that her daughter suffered emotional and psychological injury, but she seems very confident about being gay, coming out and saying that she's gay and addressing all the cameras and the press.

PEREZ: She does. She is a very self-assured young lady. She came out when she was 12 years old. In fact, lots of people are comfortable with who they are from a sexual orientation standpoint far earlier than that. Lots of straight people come out and realize that they like girls if they're a guy or they like boys that they're a girl by the time they're 12, so there's nothing -- there's nothing about that that's particularly remarkable.

PHILLIPS: Jack, what do you think? Does Dan have a case here?

JACK BURKMAN, ATTORNEY: No, he doesn't and he knows it. It's a entirely frivolous suit, Kyra. The thing with this, this law is well settled. There have been 70 or 80 cases over the years. The Supreme Court has ruled on it. All the circuits have ruled on it. You know, there've been cases with girls in the see-through t-shirts and the halter tops and the hair and the jewelry. Schools have fairly broad discretion to enforce the kind of values they want. If people don't like that, the way you change that is to vote out the school directors. If you think gays are being discriminated against, vote out your school directors, vote out your congressman.

But look, schools from a family values perspective, that's the legal -- I think what the school district is doing is morally right. We shouldn't have an atmosphere where gay values are encouraged in schools. I think it's wrong. I think for too many years particularly up there in that area we've had a culture where there is a difference between, I don't support discrimination against homosexuals, certainly not, but at the same time, schools should not create an atmosphere and allow an atmosphere to flourish where gay values will be encouraged.

PHILLIPS: So you're saying family values -- Jack, are you saying that family values means that being gay is wrong, it's not good family values?

BURKMAN: It's not that it's being wrong. There's a fine line between tolerating and encouraging. If you let this kind of behavior go, Kyra, what happens is more and more children -- you know, for years in this country, let's face it, the media has overstated the number of gays. You have a left-wing culture in schools that begins in grade school, goes to high school, goes to college, and children are told that being gay is OK and they're almost pushed in that direction. And I think this is an example where a school district wants to put its foot down, and do the right thing, but again, you don't have to take my word for it. If the public up there doesn't like that, vote out those school directors. A lawsuit is not the way to handle this.

PHILLIPS: Dan, is this about discrimination, dress code, social political commentary?

PEREZ: Well, it's exactly that kind of incredibly closed-minded attitude about lesbians and gays that led to this censorship in the first place. People don't have a problem with lesbians and gays as long as they keep quiet about it. And the fact of the matter is that the city of New York hasn't instituted any policies regarding dress of students as long as it's not obscene. There was nothing obscene about the shirt. If she had worn a shirt to school that said, "Barbie is a Christian," and she was suspended for it, I guarantee you, Jack would be on the air...

BURKMAN: But that's a local decision, Dan.

PEREZ: ... calling this improper.

BURKMAN: But you see, that's a local decision. If a school district, if the school directors and the school board and the school superintendent and the local government up there decide they want to promote family values, Christian values and they don't want to promote homosexual values, that's up to them. That's a local decision. That's decided at the ballot box.

PEREZ: Right, but the problem, Jack...

BURKMAN: There's nothing wrong -- public policy is all about line drawing, it's all about deciding what's OK and what's not OK.

PEREZ: That's right, but what you can't do, Jack, is to say you can wear a shirt to school that says "Barbie supports the coalition troops" during the war against Iraq, but she can't wear a shirt to school that says Barbie is a lesbian. If the school wants to take a position no speech...

BURKMAN: But it's not a free speech issue.

PEREZ: Let me just finish if I can. If the school wants to take the position, no speech of any kind, that's fine. But you can't make view point specific, content specific censorship of students.

(CROSSTALK)

PHILLIPS: Dan, let me ask you this, isn't this a bit of a distraction, though? I mean, think of that age, she's under 18. My mom always told me what I had to wear, what I couldn't wear. I remember there was a dress code at school. You couldn't wear provocative clothing. Why not go to school, behave yourself, don't cause a distraction, come home, wear whatever the heck you want?

PEREZ: Well, look, there's two responses. First of all, students have the right to express themselves, the First Amendment doesn't get checked at the schoolhouse gate. And number two, if that's the position you want to take, which is a perfectly reasonable position, because lots of schools, lots of public schools make their students wear uniforms, then go back to the Department of Education in the city of New York and say, make students wear uniforms and nobody...

(CROSSTALK)

BURKMAN: It doesn't get checked at the schoolhouse gate, no. But there is well settled law that gives, and you know this as well as I do, that gives school districts and local governments broad discretion to regulate things. You know, wearing earrings, wearing see-through t-shirts, wearing obscene clothing...

(CROSSTALK)

PEREZ: But Jack, this is not wearing a see-through t-shirt.

BURKMAN: ... that these things are not part of free speech. This is not a free speech issue. She's not expressing political views.

PEREZ: Jack, somebody identifying themselves as a lesbian is not the same as wearing a see-through t-shirt. And you know that. And that is comparing apples to oranges. If you want apples to apples, let's say that she wore a crucifix to school. You wouldn't have a problem with that, right?

PHILLIPS: Why not wear a t-shirt saying I'm gay and I'm proud? Why Barbie is a lesbian?

PEREZ: If she had worn that shirt, the problem is, Kyra, she would have been suspended for that, too. She wore gay pride hair beads in her hair, and she was told to take those out, but when she wore red, white and blue hair beads in her hair, that was totally fine. When she wore orange and green and white hair beads in her hair on St. Patty's Day, that was fine too. It's only those rainbow colors and words like lesbians is when teachers get comfortable.

BURKMAN: The only reason...

PHILLIPS: So, Jack, how -- yes, go ahead.

BURKMAN: The only reason we're hearing about this is because there are lawyers who go out and look for these things and need to earn fees. If it weren't for the trial bar looking to stir up trouble, you would never hear of these cases. This is not a First Amendment issue. It's not about political free speech. She's not talking about a war, she's not talking about some kind of economic ideology. All you're doing with this type of thing is creating an environment that's uncomfortable for the majority. And that's what it's about.

There may be a minority in that district that supports these kind of values, but once again, public policy, school district policy is not about advancing the majority, it is about advancing the majority. The problem in America is that any time you want to promote the values of the majority, somebody like Dan comes in and says, that's discrimination. (CROSSTALK)

PHILLIPS: Dan, when are we going to have an answer here? We're going to follow up on this, I can promise you that.

PEREZ: I'm sorry. Say that again?

PHILLIPS: When are we going to have a conclusion to this?

PEREZ: We're going to have a conclusion when a federal judge says that her First Amendment rights were violated, when a judge forces the Department of Education in the city of New York to institute policies and regulations dealing with speech and dealing with gay and lesbian students. Hopefully that will be some time by the beginning of the next school year.

BURKMAN: Don't hold your breath.

PHILLIPS: Dan Perez and Jack Burkman, I am holding my breath, I got to have you two back. You got things exciting for us and got the conversation going. Thanks, gentlemen.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com







Aired June 20, 2003 - 14:34   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: Barbie? A lesbian? Well, that's the message on a T-shirt worn by a middle school student in Queens. And now the girl's mother is suing the city of New York over what happened after her daughter showed up for class. Glen Thompson of affiliate station WPIX fills us in.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GLEN THOMPSON, WPIX CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): 14-year-old Nicky Young shows off the "Barbie is a lesbian" t-shirt that got her in hot water at Middle School 210 in Ozone Park, Queens. Nicky, who is openly gay, says the school's principal also took offense at her gay pride beads.

NICKY YOUNG, MIDDLE SCHOOL STUDENT: I went to school with a t- shirt that said "Barbie is a lesbian," and they held me in a room for two hours and they said, it's not appropriate to wear, I should take it off and I didn't have any other clothing. So I told them, I'm not going to take it off.

THOMPSON: After being held in the principal's office, Nicky's mother had to come get her after she was suspended for refusing to take off the shirt.

YOUNG: Everybody should be treated equally, and I think that I was treated differently because of my sexual orientation, and I don't think it was fair and what they did was kind of rude, and to me it was childish.

THOMPSON: Nicky says she was only goofing on Mattel's widely popular Barbie doll and didn't mean to offend anyone. Her lawsuit against the school system claims she had a right to wear the t-shirt. The Department of Education isn't commenting.

DAN PEREZ, ATTORNEY: The First Amendment doesn't stop at the school house door, and students have the right generally to wear a variety of clothing that contains social and political commentary, as well as engage in symbolic speech.

THOMPSON (on camera): Nicky's lawsuit seeks an unspecified amount in monetary damages and an injunction preventing the school system from suspending her if she ever wears the t-shirt again. I'm Glen Thompson, for the WB11 News at 10.

(END VIDEOTAPE) PHILLIPS: School and city representatives have declined to comment on this, but Natalie Young's attorney, Dan Perez, is talking, and in Washington, attorney Jack Burkman has agreed to look at this from the school district's point of view. Gentlemen, thanks for being with me.

Good afternoon. Dan, let's start with you. Mom -- I'm looking at the charges here. Mom is saying that her daughter suffered emotional and psychological injury, but she seems very confident about being gay, coming out and saying that she's gay and addressing all the cameras and the press.

PEREZ: She does. She is a very self-assured young lady. She came out when she was 12 years old. In fact, lots of people are comfortable with who they are from a sexual orientation standpoint far earlier than that. Lots of straight people come out and realize that they like girls if they're a guy or they like boys that they're a girl by the time they're 12, so there's nothing -- there's nothing about that that's particularly remarkable.

PHILLIPS: Jack, what do you think? Does Dan have a case here?

JACK BURKMAN, ATTORNEY: No, he doesn't and he knows it. It's a entirely frivolous suit, Kyra. The thing with this, this law is well settled. There have been 70 or 80 cases over the years. The Supreme Court has ruled on it. All the circuits have ruled on it. You know, there've been cases with girls in the see-through t-shirts and the halter tops and the hair and the jewelry. Schools have fairly broad discretion to enforce the kind of values they want. If people don't like that, the way you change that is to vote out the school directors. If you think gays are being discriminated against, vote out your school directors, vote out your congressman.

But look, schools from a family values perspective, that's the legal -- I think what the school district is doing is morally right. We shouldn't have an atmosphere where gay values are encouraged in schools. I think it's wrong. I think for too many years particularly up there in that area we've had a culture where there is a difference between, I don't support discrimination against homosexuals, certainly not, but at the same time, schools should not create an atmosphere and allow an atmosphere to flourish where gay values will be encouraged.

PHILLIPS: So you're saying family values -- Jack, are you saying that family values means that being gay is wrong, it's not good family values?

BURKMAN: It's not that it's being wrong. There's a fine line between tolerating and encouraging. If you let this kind of behavior go, Kyra, what happens is more and more children -- you know, for years in this country, let's face it, the media has overstated the number of gays. You have a left-wing culture in schools that begins in grade school, goes to high school, goes to college, and children are told that being gay is OK and they're almost pushed in that direction. And I think this is an example where a school district wants to put its foot down, and do the right thing, but again, you don't have to take my word for it. If the public up there doesn't like that, vote out those school directors. A lawsuit is not the way to handle this.

PHILLIPS: Dan, is this about discrimination, dress code, social political commentary?

PEREZ: Well, it's exactly that kind of incredibly closed-minded attitude about lesbians and gays that led to this censorship in the first place. People don't have a problem with lesbians and gays as long as they keep quiet about it. And the fact of the matter is that the city of New York hasn't instituted any policies regarding dress of students as long as it's not obscene. There was nothing obscene about the shirt. If she had worn a shirt to school that said, "Barbie is a Christian," and she was suspended for it, I guarantee you, Jack would be on the air...

BURKMAN: But that's a local decision, Dan.

PEREZ: ... calling this improper.

BURKMAN: But you see, that's a local decision. If a school district, if the school directors and the school board and the school superintendent and the local government up there decide they want to promote family values, Christian values and they don't want to promote homosexual values, that's up to them. That's a local decision. That's decided at the ballot box.

PEREZ: Right, but the problem, Jack...

BURKMAN: There's nothing wrong -- public policy is all about line drawing, it's all about deciding what's OK and what's not OK.

PEREZ: That's right, but what you can't do, Jack, is to say you can wear a shirt to school that says "Barbie supports the coalition troops" during the war against Iraq, but she can't wear a shirt to school that says Barbie is a lesbian. If the school wants to take a position no speech...

BURKMAN: But it's not a free speech issue.

PEREZ: Let me just finish if I can. If the school wants to take the position, no speech of any kind, that's fine. But you can't make view point specific, content specific censorship of students.

(CROSSTALK)

PHILLIPS: Dan, let me ask you this, isn't this a bit of a distraction, though? I mean, think of that age, she's under 18. My mom always told me what I had to wear, what I couldn't wear. I remember there was a dress code at school. You couldn't wear provocative clothing. Why not go to school, behave yourself, don't cause a distraction, come home, wear whatever the heck you want?

PEREZ: Well, look, there's two responses. First of all, students have the right to express themselves, the First Amendment doesn't get checked at the schoolhouse gate. And number two, if that's the position you want to take, which is a perfectly reasonable position, because lots of schools, lots of public schools make their students wear uniforms, then go back to the Department of Education in the city of New York and say, make students wear uniforms and nobody...

(CROSSTALK)

BURKMAN: It doesn't get checked at the schoolhouse gate, no. But there is well settled law that gives, and you know this as well as I do, that gives school districts and local governments broad discretion to regulate things. You know, wearing earrings, wearing see-through t-shirts, wearing obscene clothing...

(CROSSTALK)

PEREZ: But Jack, this is not wearing a see-through t-shirt.

BURKMAN: ... that these things are not part of free speech. This is not a free speech issue. She's not expressing political views.

PEREZ: Jack, somebody identifying themselves as a lesbian is not the same as wearing a see-through t-shirt. And you know that. And that is comparing apples to oranges. If you want apples to apples, let's say that she wore a crucifix to school. You wouldn't have a problem with that, right?

PHILLIPS: Why not wear a t-shirt saying I'm gay and I'm proud? Why Barbie is a lesbian?

PEREZ: If she had worn that shirt, the problem is, Kyra, she would have been suspended for that, too. She wore gay pride hair beads in her hair, and she was told to take those out, but when she wore red, white and blue hair beads in her hair, that was totally fine. When she wore orange and green and white hair beads in her hair on St. Patty's Day, that was fine too. It's only those rainbow colors and words like lesbians is when teachers get comfortable.

BURKMAN: The only reason...

PHILLIPS: So, Jack, how -- yes, go ahead.

BURKMAN: The only reason we're hearing about this is because there are lawyers who go out and look for these things and need to earn fees. If it weren't for the trial bar looking to stir up trouble, you would never hear of these cases. This is not a First Amendment issue. It's not about political free speech. She's not talking about a war, she's not talking about some kind of economic ideology. All you're doing with this type of thing is creating an environment that's uncomfortable for the majority. And that's what it's about.

There may be a minority in that district that supports these kind of values, but once again, public policy, school district policy is not about advancing the majority, it is about advancing the majority. The problem in America is that any time you want to promote the values of the majority, somebody like Dan comes in and says, that's discrimination. (CROSSTALK)

PHILLIPS: Dan, when are we going to have an answer here? We're going to follow up on this, I can promise you that.

PEREZ: I'm sorry. Say that again?

PHILLIPS: When are we going to have a conclusion to this?

PEREZ: We're going to have a conclusion when a federal judge says that her First Amendment rights were violated, when a judge forces the Department of Education in the city of New York to institute policies and regulations dealing with speech and dealing with gay and lesbian students. Hopefully that will be some time by the beginning of the next school year.

BURKMAN: Don't hold your breath.

PHILLIPS: Dan Perez and Jack Burkman, I am holding my breath, I got to have you two back. You got things exciting for us and got the conversation going. Thanks, gentlemen.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com