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American Morning
Interview with Martin Indyk, Former U.S. Ambassador to Israel
Aired June 20, 2003 - 07:33 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: Let's look at yet another attempt by the U.S. to put the road map for peace back on track. Secretary of State Colin Powell is in the Middle East this morning. He is meeting with both Israeli and Palestinian leaders.
Joining us to discuss what Powell's visit will mean, former U.S. ambassador to Israel and the director of the Saban Center at The Brookings Institution, Martin Indyk.
Mr. Ambassador, thank you for being with us.
MARTIN INDYK, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO ISRAEL: Thank you, Daryn. Good to be here.
KAGAN: Before he headed to this part of the world, Secretary Powell seemed to downplay expectations about this, saying don't expect something special to happen from this visit. Do you think that's a fair assessment of what will come out of this visit?
INDYK: Yes, I think it's very important to downplay expectations, because this is a complicated and very fragile process in which things are actually happening on the ground and not immediately visible.
We saw just recently, just an hour ago or so, the secretary of state coming out of his meeting with Prime Minister Sharon, sending a very hard message against Hamas to the Palestinian Authority. I think that's because he has an understanding, as I understand it, with Prime Minister Sharon, that the Israelis will now hold back and exercise restraint and wait to see whether the Palestinian Authority will now act to take control of parts of northern Gaza as the first step, while still negotiating with Hamas an attempted cease-fire, brought a cease- fire, which would enable further progress.
So, it's a very small step that Powell is now trying to negotiate, and I think he's having some success on the Israeli side, and we'll have to see on the Palestinian side.
KAGAN: Well, let's look at that Palestinian side. I had a chance to read your article that you wrote for "Foreign Affairs" magazine this month. You talked specifically about this road map, about some of the problems you see with it, not necessarily the intent of it but the implementation. One thing you point out, you say it's just not realistic to expect someone like Mahmoud Abbas to control a group like Hamas, because, as you point out, you believe there is no credible Palestinian institution that can rein in any of these terrorist organizations. INDYK: Right, Daryn. The fundamental problem here that the United States faces is that the Palestinian leadership under Abu Mazen has the will to deal with the terrorism, has the right stuff in terms of the words, but it doesn't have the right stuff in terms of the capacity to do so. Security capability is very limited.
He has some capability in Gaza, but we've seen in the last couple of days that even there, there are splits within the security organization and problems to get them to act according to Mohamed Dahlan, the security minister's authority. And that fundamental lack of capacity is why the Palestinian prime minister is now negotiating with Hamas rather than confronting Hamas and disarming it as he's required to do in the road map.
And the Israelis and the United States are prepared to give him some room, because there is no other way at the moment other than to try to get Hamas to back down, to allow breathing space that would give Abu Mazen a chance to show the Palestinians that, through the Israeli army withdrawing, their lives will be improving, to restructure his security services, the better to confront Hamas further down the road. Well, of course, Hamas, there is very little in that game for them, and so I don't think they're going to cooperate with this. So, we'll still be facing a very serious problem.
KAGAN: Well, and in your piece, you...
INDYK: There has to be a way to deal with the lack of capacity.
KAGAN: And in your piece, you don't just -- you're not just critical. You come up with some solutions that you propose. One, coming up with a trusteeship, something like we've seen in Afghanistan, to have an international force come in and control the West Bank, to control the Palestinian Authority. And also, you propose and you're a big supporter of putting U.S. troops on the ground there. But do you think you could ever see that kind of support here in the U.S.?
INDYK: Well, it's interesting to see Senator Warner and Senator Lugar, two very influential Republican senators, suggesting this idea. I think it's very important that it be put into the correct political context, that the forces should be there, not as a buffer zone, but actually go in, the special forces, designed to boost the capacity of the Palestinian security services, provide them with the equipment and the intelligence, and if necessary the fighting force, the punch, that would enable them to stand up to Hamas. And that would immensely strengthen Abu Mazen's hand and make it possible, first of all, to get Hamas to back away from its terrorist acts, and then to disarm them. Without that capacity, he's got to enter this kind of negotiations, a cease-fire arrangement, which is very fragile, and unfortunately I suspect one would.
KAGAN: Well, you make a lot of interesting points in your piece. I wish we had more time to discuss, but the time on satellite is short. Mr. Ambassador, thank you for your time this morning. Appreciate your joining us from Tel Aviv today.
INDYK: Thank you very much, Daryn.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com.
Israel>
Aired June 20, 2003 - 07:33 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: Let's look at yet another attempt by the U.S. to put the road map for peace back on track. Secretary of State Colin Powell is in the Middle East this morning. He is meeting with both Israeli and Palestinian leaders.
Joining us to discuss what Powell's visit will mean, former U.S. ambassador to Israel and the director of the Saban Center at The Brookings Institution, Martin Indyk.
Mr. Ambassador, thank you for being with us.
MARTIN INDYK, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO ISRAEL: Thank you, Daryn. Good to be here.
KAGAN: Before he headed to this part of the world, Secretary Powell seemed to downplay expectations about this, saying don't expect something special to happen from this visit. Do you think that's a fair assessment of what will come out of this visit?
INDYK: Yes, I think it's very important to downplay expectations, because this is a complicated and very fragile process in which things are actually happening on the ground and not immediately visible.
We saw just recently, just an hour ago or so, the secretary of state coming out of his meeting with Prime Minister Sharon, sending a very hard message against Hamas to the Palestinian Authority. I think that's because he has an understanding, as I understand it, with Prime Minister Sharon, that the Israelis will now hold back and exercise restraint and wait to see whether the Palestinian Authority will now act to take control of parts of northern Gaza as the first step, while still negotiating with Hamas an attempted cease-fire, brought a cease- fire, which would enable further progress.
So, it's a very small step that Powell is now trying to negotiate, and I think he's having some success on the Israeli side, and we'll have to see on the Palestinian side.
KAGAN: Well, let's look at that Palestinian side. I had a chance to read your article that you wrote for "Foreign Affairs" magazine this month. You talked specifically about this road map, about some of the problems you see with it, not necessarily the intent of it but the implementation. One thing you point out, you say it's just not realistic to expect someone like Mahmoud Abbas to control a group like Hamas, because, as you point out, you believe there is no credible Palestinian institution that can rein in any of these terrorist organizations. INDYK: Right, Daryn. The fundamental problem here that the United States faces is that the Palestinian leadership under Abu Mazen has the will to deal with the terrorism, has the right stuff in terms of the words, but it doesn't have the right stuff in terms of the capacity to do so. Security capability is very limited.
He has some capability in Gaza, but we've seen in the last couple of days that even there, there are splits within the security organization and problems to get them to act according to Mohamed Dahlan, the security minister's authority. And that fundamental lack of capacity is why the Palestinian prime minister is now negotiating with Hamas rather than confronting Hamas and disarming it as he's required to do in the road map.
And the Israelis and the United States are prepared to give him some room, because there is no other way at the moment other than to try to get Hamas to back down, to allow breathing space that would give Abu Mazen a chance to show the Palestinians that, through the Israeli army withdrawing, their lives will be improving, to restructure his security services, the better to confront Hamas further down the road. Well, of course, Hamas, there is very little in that game for them, and so I don't think they're going to cooperate with this. So, we'll still be facing a very serious problem.
KAGAN: Well, and in your piece, you...
INDYK: There has to be a way to deal with the lack of capacity.
KAGAN: And in your piece, you don't just -- you're not just critical. You come up with some solutions that you propose. One, coming up with a trusteeship, something like we've seen in Afghanistan, to have an international force come in and control the West Bank, to control the Palestinian Authority. And also, you propose and you're a big supporter of putting U.S. troops on the ground there. But do you think you could ever see that kind of support here in the U.S.?
INDYK: Well, it's interesting to see Senator Warner and Senator Lugar, two very influential Republican senators, suggesting this idea. I think it's very important that it be put into the correct political context, that the forces should be there, not as a buffer zone, but actually go in, the special forces, designed to boost the capacity of the Palestinian security services, provide them with the equipment and the intelligence, and if necessary the fighting force, the punch, that would enable them to stand up to Hamas. And that would immensely strengthen Abu Mazen's hand and make it possible, first of all, to get Hamas to back away from its terrorist acts, and then to disarm them. Without that capacity, he's got to enter this kind of negotiations, a cease-fire arrangement, which is very fragile, and unfortunately I suspect one would.
KAGAN: Well, you make a lot of interesting points in your piece. I wish we had more time to discuss, but the time on satellite is short. Mr. Ambassador, thank you for your time this morning. Appreciate your joining us from Tel Aviv today.
INDYK: Thank you very much, Daryn.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com.
Israel>
