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Bush Appears Ready to Send Peacekeepers to Liberia

Aired July 2, 2003 - 18:00   ET


ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Wednesday, July 2. Sitting in for Lou Dobbs, Jan Hopkins.
JAN HOPKINS, GUEST HOST: Good evening, everyone. Tonight, President Bush appears ready to send hundreds of troops to Liberia on a peacekeeping mission. Officials told CNN an announcement could come within days. The president also had some strong words on Iraq today.

Senior White House correspondent John King reports.


JOHN KING, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The president all but dared those trying to kill U.S. forces in Iraq to attack again. And sources tell CNN he is poised to order troops on another dangerous mission peacekeeping in the Western African nation of Liberia.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We're exploring all options as to how to keep the situation peaceful and stable.

KING: Administration sources say an official announcement could come as early as this week. And say the president and top national security aides discussed deploying 500 to 1,000 U.S. Troops for a mission that also would include West African force forces. These sources describe the Pentagon as somewhat reluctant. It is stretched thin in Iraq and Afghanistan, and the last major deployment in Africa in Somalia ended in retreat 10 years ago after 18 Americans were killed. Just last week Mr. Bush called on Liberian President Charles Taylor to step down. Now he wants him to leave the country as well.

BUSH: In order for there are to be peace and stability in Liberia, Charles Taylor needs to leave now.

KING: Taylor is under United Nations indictment for war crimes. The official White House line is that Taylor should leave Liberia now and still face trial later. But...

SUSAN RICE, BROOKINGS INSTITUTION: It sounds to me like President Bush is opening the door to a deal in which Taylor goes into exile and escapes the jurisdiction of the U.N. Special Court.

KING: Mr. Bush took questions after introducing his new global AIDS coordinator. He says the attacks in Iraq are an effort to get the United States to pack up and leave before a new government is established. BUSH: My answer is bring them on. We've got the force necessary to deal with the security situation.

KING: The president once again rejected the idea that intelligence saying Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction was wrong.

BUSH: He had them. And it's just a matter of time.


KING: As a candidate for president, then Governor Bush promised to think long and hard before sending U.S. troops overseas. Now the White House insists a Liberia deployment would meet the president's test, that it be to represent vital U.S. national security interests, that it be of limited duration, and that there be a clear exit strategy -- Jan?.

HOPKINS: But John, this has been going on for a very long time. Does the timing have anything to do with the fact that the president is going to Africa next week in.

KING: Well, certainly, the political pressure on this president has a lot to do with the fact that he is about to go to Africa. There was a recent cease-fire. The United Nations is more involved. So there are other political forces at play, including Western African nations. But this president is about to go to Africa. He says his mission is to prove that the United States will stand with Africa to promote peace and security and democracy and economic growth. And many African leaders are looking at the situation in Liberia and simply saying to the White House prove that commitment -- Jan.

HOPKINS: John King at the White House. Thanks.

A contingent of Marines in Spain could be the first to deploy to Liberia. They could be in that country within six hours of receiving their orders.

Senior Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre has more -- Jamie.

JAMIE MCINTYRE, SENIOR PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jan, just to be clear, this Marine FAST team, it's called, that stands for Fleet Anti-Terrorism Security Team, is a small number of Marines, about 50 or so, that's specifically designed to provide security at the U.S. Embassy. They could be deployed, whether or not President Bush makes a final decision on peacekeepers, for Liberia. They're trained specifically, as I said, to protect Americans at the embassy. If the U.S. decides to send a bigger peacekeeping force of army troops to Liberia, then they might also take over the security mission at the embassy, obviating the need for the Marines.

So these are all part of the options on the table for the Bush administration, ranging from a low end option of just protecting U.S. interests to a higher end of taking part in an international peacekeeping force -- Jan.

HOPKINS: Jamie, are there differences of opinion between the Pentagon and the White House over possible deployment to Liberia?

MCINTYRE: Well, Pentagon officials realized the that U.s. Military is stretched pretty thin at the moment. But nevertheless, they insist a limited mission like this with a relatively small number of troops won't add too much of an additional burden. But if you look at where U.S. troops are deployed around the world, of course they have 146,000 troops in Iraq and then of course another 9,000 in Afghanistan. The Balkans, another 3,000 -- over 3,000 troops there. This probably would be between 500 and 1,000 troops in Liberia.

Still, the Pentagon officials insist that neither Defense Secretary Rumsfeld nor the joint chiefs Chairman, General Richard Myers, has expressed any reservations about this. Aides to Rumsfeld insist that this kind of a deployment falls under what he calls a lesser contingency that the U.S. is prepared to take care of even while it's involved in major operation like what's going on in Iraq.

HOPKINS: Speaking of Iraq, there were more U.S. casualties there today.

What can you tell us about that?

MCINTYRE: Well, just it appears that this one was accidental. There was a Marine who was killed in a mine clearing operation near Karbala, and again, the latest casualty in a death toll that continues to go up almost every day.

HOPKINS: Jamie McIntyre at the Pentagon, thanks.

U.S. troops in Iraq will have a new commander next week. General John Abizaid will replace general Tommy Franks as head of Central Command. One of his first tasks will be to recommend whether or not to send more troops to Iraq. That decision depends in part on what help is going to come from other countries.

Kitty Pilgrim, takes a look at that.


KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The peace posse is coming to Iraq. Backup from other nations is on the way. Arriving later in the summer through September.

DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: What CENTCOM has to do, then, is to take them and mix and match in a way so that they have assignments and know what kind of equipment they have to bring in and then schedule the flow in. And that's been going on for weeks.

PILGRIM: British Foreign Secretary Jack Straw made a quick visit to Baghdad today. He reiterated British support in the wake of recent attacks.

JACK STRAW, BRITISH FOREIGN SECRETARY: This action against the coalition forces won't succeed, and will be dealt with.

PILGRIM: 146,000 U.S. troops are currently in Iraq, along with 12,000 allied troops the majority British. But 24 countries have made commitments to provide forces, and 12 other countries are involved in discussions. Some of those troops should begin arriving later this month. Poland is a big supporter, sending a force of more than 2,000. A group of 250 left today. International experts say there is no other choice for the international community but to help.

JAMES CARAFANO, THE HERITAGE FOUNDATION: I think what they are is being realistic. First of all, nobody has an interest in seeing this go south. I mean, nobody wants Baghdad to become Beirut, and nobody wants Iraq to become Bosnia. So the international community has an interest in this occupation being conducted successfully.

PILGRIM: Some countries such as Pakistan want to internationalize the troops under a U.N. or NATO or some other umbrella.


PILGRIM: Now, with all this help, surely U.S. Forces should be able to rotate out, as they say. Well, there's no schedule for that yet. But for the time being any help will be appreciated -- Jan.

HOPKINS: Kitty, why aren't we hearing more about these troops that are going on?

PILGRIM: Well, some of the countries that we're talking to have sensitivities about funding and logistics and so not all the countries we're talking to for help really want to go public with their negotiations quite yet.

HOPKINS: Thanks, Kitty Pilgrim.

In the Middle East today another significant step forward in the road to peace. Israeli troops transferred control of the West Bank town of Bethlehem to Palestinian police.

Dan Lothian in Bethlehem has the report.


DAN LOTHIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The pathway to peace went through Bethlehem. As this ancient city became the latest symbol of change. Church bells and parading Palestinian security police falling into place after Israeli troops pulled out.

MAYOR HANNA NASSR, BETHLEHEM, WEST BANK: This is a first step, you know, Bethlehem and Gaza first. This is a first step towards the implementation of the road map.

LOTHIAN: Israeli troops will still maintain a presence at the city's main entrance. But they will no longer enter Bethlehem to make arrests or conduct patrols. On this narrow cobblestone street packed with sidewalk vendors and small shops, Khalid Kutu (ph) is skeptical, unwilling to embrace this latest attempt at peace.

(on camera): You think the army will come back? UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

LOTHIAN: So there's no trust?


LOTHIAN (voice-over): Pharmacist Nabil Adili is cautiously optimistic.

NABIL ADILI, PHARMACY OWNER: I am looking to implement a real peace, real cooperation, real good life for the two people, for the two people. When this take place, we can celebrate.

LOTHIAN: Israel hopes the Palestinian Authority will be able to maintain security, preventing violence and cracking down on militants. Long after the celebration in Bethlehem fades.

Dan Lothian, CNN, Bethlehem.


HOPKINS: Some astonishing scenes in the European Parliament today. Italian Prime Minister Sylvio Berlusconi caused an uproar by comparing a German lawmaker with a Nazi concentration camp guard. Berlusconi made his remarks after that lawmaker criticized the Italian prime minister.


SILVIO BERLUSCONI, ITALIAN PRIME MINISTER (through translator): Mr. Schultz, I know there is a producer in Italy who is making a film on the Nazi concentration camps. I will suggest you for the role of Kapo, the commander. You'd be perfect.


HOPKINS: Berlusconi later said he did not intend to cause any offense, but he refused to withdraw his comments or apologize.

Still ahead tonight, capitalism and democracy. Our series of SPECIAL REPORTs in conjunction with the "Economist Magazine". Tonight, China's challenge, balancing a booming economy and a rapid political change.

And then...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't know that we have the resources to staunch the flow of illegal immigration.

Casey Wian reports on companies that employ illegal workers. And two leading experts will face off on the issue of guest workers. Should the United States open its borders to illegal aliens?


HOPKINS: The world's largest private sector employer is taking steps to protect its gay and lesbian workers, Wal-Mart has extended its anti-discrimination policy to cover gays and lesbians. A Wal-Mart spokesperson says the move will help it keep many talented employees. Wal-Mart is the ninth of the top ten fortune 500 companies to include sexual orientation in its anti-discrimination policy. The last holdout is Exxonmobil. The oil company maintains that its anti- discrimination policy is in keeping with federal law.

Meanwhile, today President Bush said he is not sure if a constitutional ban on same sex marriage is needed yet. Mr. Bush commented after Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist sparked controversy by saying he supports a ban on gay marriage.

Stocks surged today on good corporate and economic news. The DOW Industrial is up almost 102 points. The Nasdaq added almost 39. And the S&P 500 was up 11. Susan Lisovicz is here with more on the markets. Susan.

SUSAN LISOVICZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Jan. There was positive follow-through right from the opening bell. A better than expected report on factory orders showed a tiny gain in May versus a decline in April. And bullish calls on a couple of blue chip stocks reinforced that positive sentiment. Merrill Lynch upgraded Microsoft seeing a potential for higher earnings and a dividend increase. That helped lift Intel and tech stocks across the board and propelled the Nasdaq to its best close since May of 2002.

Wal-mart, in the news on its new policy on gay employees, got a verbal bouquet from Merrill, which sees strong year-over-year sales over the next four quarters.

And another stock made its debut on wall street today. Molina Healthcare, priced at $17.50, near the top of its projected range, and it closed at $20, a first-day gain of 14 percent. Jan, advancing stocks beat decliners by better than 3 to 1, but it came in lighter volume. And tomorrow's a half day, ahead of the July 4 holiday, but expect some action in the early going, Jan, because that all important Jobs report for June comes out before the opening bell.

HOPKINS: Thanks, Susan.


HOPKINS: Still to come tonight, food fight in the courts. Suing fast food companies over weight gain. Peter Viles reports on a growing trend.

And then we'll share some of your e-mails on the fast food industry's battle of the bulge.

And unraveling a mystery in Waco, Texas. Baylor basketball player Petrick Dennehy's bizarre disappearance. We will have a live report coming up.


HOPKINS: The search for Patrick Dennehy continues tonight. The Baylor University basketball star has been missing for three weeks now. Texas police don't know if he's dead or alive. And despite hundreds of leads, they appear no closer to solving the mystery. Gary Tuchman joins us from Waco, Texas, with the latest -- Gary.

GARY TUCHMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jan, you're right, there's so much that is unknown about this case. Here's what we do know. Patrick Dennehy, the basketball player from Baylor University, has been missing since June 11 or 12. Police believe the most likely was the victim of foul play. But no body has been found, and there are officially no suspects but there are persons of interest. The police here in Waco are not telling us how many persons of interest there are. They are saying the name of one of those persons of interest, and that name is Carlton Dotson.

Dotson is a former teammate of Dennehy's, also said to be to be a friend of Dennehy's. Dotson has talked with police in his home state of Maryland. It's not clear if and when he will talk to them again. But he has acquired a lawyer, and we talked to that lawyer today after he talked to his client in Maryland last night.


GRADY IRVIN, DOTSON'S ATTORNEY: And we have followed up on many leads, but again, we haven't been able to locate Mr. Dennehy or a crime scene or anything like that. Somebody out there knows what's happened to him. Or they know where he's at. And we're hoping that person or persons will call in and give us that good tip and we can resolve this.


TUCHMAN: Okay. That was actually a spokesman for the Waco police department talking about the hoped-for tips. Right now this is officially a missing persons case because they have not found a body. We do want to tell you a friend of Dennehy has told reporters that Dennehy and Dotson both bought guns to protect themselves from a third person who they think was after them. So that gives you an idea of how mysterious and confusing this case is, that this particular person, this friend who's talked to reporters, says Dotson could have had nothing to do with Dennehy's demise. So it is certainly very confusing.

We do want to tell you that police have searched many areas around Waco, Texas, looking for a body after they've gotten some tips from the public. One of those areas is near Hill County, Texas, which is northeast of the city of Waco. But they have not found a body. We've asked them if they've found any evidence, and they won't answer that question. So we do want to tell you that authorities are saying the investigation is going very slowly. They are not saying to expect anything imminently. And as a matter of fact, they're saying they're not going to hold any more news conferences for the time being because they don't have any news to share. Jan, back to you.

HOPKINS: Thanks for that update. Gary Tuchman in Waco, Texas.

In other news across America tonight, four people are dead after a tractor trailer carrying fireworks exploded in Benita Springs, Florida. The explosion set off fireworks and sparked several small brush fires. There's no word on what triggered that blast.

The trial of sniper suspect Lee Boyd Malvo has been moved about 200 miles away from the Washington suburbs where the shootings took place. A judge in Fairfax, Virginia, today approved the venue change to Chesapeake, Virginia. The judge said that the trial should take place away from the area where many potential jurors lived in fear during that shooting spree.

And the latest lottery player turned multimillionaire stepped forward today to claim her prize. Bernadette Gietka of Maryland won more than $112 million last month in the multistate Mega Millions lottery. The part-time mail carrier has had two weeks to let her new fortune sink in.


BERNADETTE GIETKA, MEGA MILLIONS WINNER: I've finished being sick. And everyone I told, they were sick for a few days, but I'm just enjoying the -- telling everybody, really. Telling the story of it. And trying to figure out what to do with it.


HOPKINS: From fortune to fat, fast food restaurants are the latest target of blame for obesity in this country, and even the target of some lawsuits. But the U.S. Chamber of Commerce says that overweight Americans should eat less and exercise their bodies more, not their attorneys. Peter Viles has that report.


PETER VILES, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Who says it's a diet of burgers and fries that's making America fat? Today the U.S. Chamber of Commerce went to bat for McDonald's, Burger King, and every other restaurant that owns a fryolator. The goal, to defend the industry against a legal assault from the same lawyers who beat up on big tobacco.

LISA RICKARD, U.S. CHAMBER OF COMMERCE: The courts have recently said that what Americans do in the privacy of their own bedrooms is their business. Surely, the same privileges apply to their kitchens or wherever they get their next meal.

VILES: Not really a study, the chamber released an essay arguing lawsuits against fast food companies are misdirected, that fast food is not addictive, is a cheap source of protein, not a major cause of obesity. And what does cause obesity? Well, the chamber claims it's too much snacking and nibbling between meals. John Banzhaf is one of the lawyers targeting fast food companies.

JOHN BANZHAF, GEORGE WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY: Quite frankly, I hope they're dumb enough to try to use something like that in court, to go before a jury and tell them, no, fast food doesn't cause obesity in the face of every study showing that it does, or that personal responsibility ends the lawsuit. That argument didn't work for the tobacco industry. It won't work for the food industry.

VILES: There is plenty of research linking fast food to obesity. Explaining the rise in obesity before Congress, CDC Director Julie Gerberding pointed to, among other things, the rise in spending on fast food. And there's this from the National Bureau of Economic Research -- "fast foods and prepared foods," quote, "have extremely high caloric density, are satisfying and habit-forming, and they almost certainly contribute to the obesity epidemic."


VILES: Now, the chamber today endorsed a longshot piece of legislation in Congress that would effectively end this argument. That's a bill that would bar lawsuits against food companies if their products comply with existing laws. But as we say, Jan, that's a longshot.

HOPKINS: But there are already lawsuits that have been filed. What's the status?

VILES: The one to watch is here in New York. These are two teenagers who said they basically got overweight and unhealthy by eating at McDonald's. Originally the case was dismissed by a judge, but he dismissed it with an invitation to refile it. It has been refiled. The claim that fast food is addictive has been dropped, but the claim that the McDonald's essentially engaged in false advertising remains. That's the central complaint against McDonald's. And of course, McDonald's denies that.

HOPKINS: Peter Viles, thanks.

Finally, some good health news for people living north of the U.S. border. The World Health Organization has declared Canada's largest city, Toronto, SARS-free. No new cases of Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome have been report there in three weeks. There were 39 SARS-related deaths in the Toronto area.


JACQUES ROGGE, PRES., INTERNATIONAL OLYMPIC COMMITTEE: The International Olympic Committee has the honor of announcing that the 21st Olympic Winter Games in 2010 are awarded to the city of Vancouver.


HOPKINS: Vancouver overcame bids from South Korea and Austria for the right to host the games. 2010 event will be the first Winter Olympics to be held in Canada since 1988.

And now for a look at some of your thoughts. Richard moss of El Cajon, California, wrote about Kraft's decision to reduce portions and cut fat. "The whole issue of lawsuits against food manufacturers is plain ridiculous. Whatever happened to personal responsibility? I have remained at the same weight for the last 35 years, can eat anything, and in fact would love to gain weight. So please, leave those fatty foods alone and let me buy lots of them!" Boy, are you lucky, Richard.

Bernard Hayden of Paducah, Kentucky, asked: "If Kraft is going to help us all lose weight by downsizing their product, is that price going down in size as well?" I wouldn't count on it.

And John Gwathney of Columbus, Mississippi, wrote about the military: "Everyone always says we have the best military in the world. They never mention that our troops make less than the average factory worker, yet they protect the great freedom of this country. I think the brave men and women deserve better wages for the wonderful job that they do protecting our great country."

And we couldn't agree with you more. Also, Loyd Esklidson wrote: "Thanks for focusing on some of today's major problems: The trade deficit, illegal immigration, and shipping jobs overseas. Why don't any politicians see these issues?"

We love hearing from you. Please send us your thoughts at

And when we come back, "Face-off." Legalizing illegal aliens. Should the U.S. open its borders? We'll hear both sides of the debate.

And then, telemarketing turns high-tech. Abandoning the phone lines to go online. Bill Tucker will have that story.


HOPKINS: The Department of Homeland Security says it's trying to crack down on illegal immigration, especially immigrant smuggling. It may be an uphill battle, though. There's a growing demand in this country for immigrant workers, especially in the building industry, where qualified help is hard to find. Casey Wian has that story from Los Angeles.


CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This California home contractor, call him Jack, employs between 100 and 500 workers at any given time. At least 60 percent are illegal immigrants. Everyone Jack hires presents what looks like proper identification, but most are phony. Without the illegal immigrants, Jack says his business and that of most home builders would collapse.

JACK: There would be no construction. I don't know where we would get the people, or what it would cost us to get the people to construct the houses. There's no other alternative workforce.

WIAN: The booming home construction business has become dependent on illegal immigrant labor. The workers are skilled, generally well paid, but willing to do work most legal residents aren't. And like many other industries, it's all done with the knowledge and sometimes tacit approval of the federal and local governments, who rarely take action against either illegal workers or their employers. JOSEPH GREENE, DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY: I don't know that we have the resources to staunch the flow of illegal immigration. We have to make some difficult decisions here based on the priorities of our mission, and the priorities of our mission are to protect America.

WIAN: In Huntington Beach, for example, documents are checked at this city-owned day laborer job center.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How much are you going to pay the hour?


WIAN: But because of the prevalence of fake IDs and because employers face discrimination suits if they ask the wrong questions about legal status, illegal immigrants can easily slip in, and despite the city's efforts to get day laborers off the street, dozens wait for work in an unsanctioned site just yards from a police station. Even when law enforcement does crack down, consequences are few. After a three-year undercover investigation, Tyson Foods was charged with smuggling illegal immigrants to work in meat-packing plants. Despite guilty pleas by two former managers, in March the company and three other executives were acquitted. Aubrey Harwell represented one of the former managers.

AUBREY HARWELL, ATTORNEY: Basically, the law requires employers not to hire illegal aliens. At the same time, that very law requires employers not discriminate on the basis of national origin. I think our government owes it to corporate America to clarify its policy.

WIAN: Contractor Jack wants the government to legitimize a critical labor force.

JACK: It seems to me that there should be a easy and achievable way for them to get some kind of legal status to be here in the country. I mean, as a business owner I like to run my business 100 percent straight up. And this situation keeps me from running a legitimate business.


WIAN: Now, one way employers are protecting themselves from liability is by using labor brokers, or middlemen who do the hiring and process the paperwork. But most employers have little to fear, because the government says its immigration priorities are catching terrorists and busting employers who exploit illegal immigrants -- Jan.

HOPKINS: Definitely a dilemma, Casey.

WIAN: Absolutely. And a lot of businesses are becoming stuck in it as the labor force grows tighter.

HOPKINS: Thanks very much, Casey Wian in Los Angeles.

And that brings us to tonight's "Face-off" topic, the legalization of Mexican migration. Daniel Griswold is an associate director for trade policy at the Cato Institute. He supports legalization of Mexican migration. And Victor Davis Hanson says the explosion of illegal Mexican immigration is a real danger. He is with the Hoover Institution, and he is also author of "Mexifornia, a State of Becoming." Victor, let's start with you. Why wouldn't it work to legalize what we already have, the illegal immigrants, especially from Mexico?

VICTOR DAVIS HANSON, HOOVER INSTITUTION: Well, it would if we would have a one-time amnesty. But unfortunately, we've had a cycle of this and it doesn't stop the real problem, and that is simply that the Mexican government has a policy of avoiding domestic reform by exporting human capital at the rate of one or two million illegals a year, and it's in the long term deleterious for Mexico, because they don't face up to the problems they have for providing security and prosperity for their own people.

And because, unlike past immigrations that were one-shot or two- shot phenomenon, we have so many people coming so quickly and rapidly under illegal auspices that we have a permanent (UNINTELLIGIBLE) category of people that are living in a shadowy, alternative legal universe. So it also undermines respect for the law.

Finally, it's a moral decision, because we're trafficking in human capital where many of these people are paid in cash. They work very hard for 30 years, and then with a back injury, a knee injury, the employer then turns them over to the state, then says that their children, who were born here that didn't participate in the civic life of America, don't work like their Mexican immigrant parents, and it's time to renew the cycle, and bring more illegal aliens rather than solve the social and cultural problems that we're faced with by the phenomenon of illegal immigration.

HOPKINS: Dan Griswold, do you support legalizing this Mexican migration? Why would that work?

DANIEL GRISWOLD, CATO INSTITUTE: I think some program of legalization would address a lot of the problems that Victor Hanson's talking about. Look, our immigration laws are colliding with reality, and reality is winning.

We have this continued demand for low skilled workers. Your opening segment showed in the construction industry, the hotel, motel industry. Agricultural industry. There's a demand for these jobs. And yet Americans are unwilling and unsuited to take these jobs.

The result is you have large numbers of Mexicans coming in here illegally. We've tried a massive enforcement effort at our border, with increased border enforcement, building walls in San Diego. All we've done is create a deadly diversion of people into the desert; 2,300 hardworking, Peaceful Mexicans have died in the desert since 1995 because of this.

I think the answer is to create a legal channel. Currently there's no legal channel for these workers to come into the country. You'd start to drain the swamp of smuggling and document fraud. I think President Bush had it right. If you have willing workers and willing employers, we should let them get together.

HOPKINS: Victor, your response?

HANSON: Well, there's something wrong with a society that accepts 10 percent unemployment in the state in the middle of a recession and says that simply unlike the first 200 years of our history, that suddenly in the year 2000 or 1998, or whatever year it was, Americans could not do these jobs. To accept that is a pretty depressing admission.

In other words, if we were to take the hard medicine now and restrict immigration with Mexico so it would be legal and measured, perhaps at 100,000 or 200,000 a year, it would increase wages here, because employers would not have this constant supply of unskilled menial laborers, and then wages would inevitably rise, we'd pay a little bit, we wouldn't have to invest in these absurd things like creating an alternate universe of driver's licenses, tuition discounts, all sorts of remedies that avoid the real problem that we're not facing up to.

It's a moral decision. You can't tell people from India, for example, or the Philippines you have to wait a year or two, you have to have legal documentation, but everybody from six to 12 million in number from Mexico can come across in a special category. I just can't accept that Americans will not do things they used to do in the past.


GRISWOLD: We're getting older. We're getting better educated. The pool of Americans who are willing to take these jobs is shrinking. The alternative isn't to pay more wages. It's for entire sectors of our economy to start to shut down, the hotel and motel industry, large segments of the agricultural industry.

Look, if we created a legal channel, we would start to clear up some of this chaos that we're seeing. I think both Victor and I agree, having eight million people living in a kind of legal twilight is unacceptable. It's a security risk. It's a humanitarian risk. If we give these people a legal channel, many of them just want to stay here for a year or two and then go back home. We should give them those legal papers.

We'd be more secure. We'd start to eliminate all the fraud that goes with illegal immigration. These people wouldn't be afraid to come forward and cooperate with authorities.

Look, they're not criminals. The vast majority of people who come in from Mexico are peaceful, hardworking folks. They have a very high labor force participation rate. They tend to have intact families. They want to work. They want to build and save and build a better life, as immigrants have throughout American history.

HOPKINS: Victor, your solution.

HANSON: Well, I think we need measured immigration. I think we need legal immigration. We need reduced immigration. But we also are not looking at the other half, that we used to have confidence in our culture, and we had an assimilationist policy where we didn't have bilingual education or separate graduation ceremonies. We assumed that people came northward to Mexico, not southward into South America for a reason, that they wanted to participate in the civic life of an open market, consensual society, everything that makes America what it is.

And what we're doing when we bring people in illegally and we're creating this separate apartheid society, not just with illegal immigrants but with even first generation Hispanic citizens who are not graduating at rates that are commensurate with the numbers according to other groups.

So we've got to really look at this. The very idea that we're having a term like La Raza, the National Council La Raza, which is race, it's reminiscent of the old idea of the old German volk. We should never tolerate that. We're an integrationist, assimilationist society, and we've got to return to that paradigm.

HOPKINS: Final word, Dan, is this going to happen, legalizing Mexican immigration?

GRISWOLD: I think it might. I think there's support in Congress. I think the president would support it. But look, the only alternative to legalization besides the status quo is hunting down eight, nine million people, tearing them away from their families, their communities, their jobs, and forcibly deporting them, and their only crime is that they have come here to work and save and build a better life.

We should recognize hard work and contributing to the American dream, not make it a crime. I think the way to get rid of the illegal immigration is to create a legal channel so that willing workers and willing employers can get together.

HOPKINS: Thank you very much, Victor Davis Hanson and Dan Griswold. Thanks, both of you.

And now tonight's poll. Do you think the United States should allow foreign guest workers? Yes or no? Cast your vote at And we'll bring you the preliminary results later in the broadcast.

Coming up, the government has empowered Americans to say do not call, but telemarketers are fighting back by launching an all-out blitz on your home. Bill Tucker will have that story.

And then sleep tight, literally. In the world's smallest full service hotel room.


HOPKINS: Since its launch on Friday, more than 15 million people have signed up to block unwanted telephone marketeting calls. Despite some problems with sluggishness, most people prefer to register their phone numbers on the Internet. Eighty-eight percent have signed up online. The other 12 percent by phone.

While the do not call list has dealt telemarketers a setback, it hasn't stopped them. Their next targets, your mailbox and your computer. Bill Tucker has that report.


BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Consumers may be soon trading this...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, this is Celia at the Sports Authority. And I'm calling because as one of our valued customers, you're entitled to receive a special 4th of July coupon for $10 off for any purchase over $20.

TUCKER: ...for this. Or maybe some more of these or maybe some more of this. Whatever form it takes, direct marketing is not going away. Over the last 12 months Americans bought over $100 billion worth of stuff from telemarketers. No business is about to just walk away from that kind of money.

LOUIS MASTRIA, DIRECT MARKETING ASSOCIATION: You'll see some redirection of the marketing budgets of companies who did used to use and continue to use telemarketing as a channel. So you may see more folks, more marketers focusing on getting consumers to call in to 800 numbers or go to Web sites.

TUCKER: That's what's known as opt-in marketing. The consumer chooses the option of being included on a marketing list by calling a number or visiting a Web site. Not all alternatives are so benign. Spam, for example.

The amount of spam has already exploded. Brightmail, an anti- spam software company, reports that in May of this year nearly one half of all e-mail received was spam. That's up from 7 percent just two years ago. But help is coming on the spam front, and with the popularity of a national do not call list could a don't e-mail me list be far behind?

CHIRS HOOFNAGLE, ELECTRONIC PRIVACY INFO CENTER: This Congress will pass spam legislation. And one of the prospects on the table is a national do not e-mail list. A national do not e-mail registry.

TUCKER: Consumers don't have to wait for Congress to get a handle on spam. and are just two Web sites that offer spam control.


TUCKER: Now, the backlash against direct marketers could have a positive impact on the old-fashioned media. Instead of antagonizing consumers directly, companies might start buying more advertising -- Jan.

HOPKINS: A novel idea. I just came back from a vacation and my e-mail box was more than half full of spam. It's really annoying. TUCKER: According to Brightmail, some companies it can run as high as 75 percent of the mail coming into a company mailbox is spam, it's uninvited mail. The problems with the national e-mail registry are much more complicated than a do not call list.

HOPKINS: Too bad. Thanks. Bill Tucker.

A reminder now to vote in tonight's poll. Do you think the United States should allow foreign guest workers? yes or no? cast your vote at

Still ahead, capitalism and democracy. A "SPECIAL REPORT" in conjunction with "The Economist" magazine. Tonight, China's challenge to become a true democracy.

And then, sleep tight. That's your only choice in what one New York hotel calls the world's smallest room. Jeanne Moos will have that story.


HOPKINS: For 160 years "The Economist" magazine has reported on and promoted the twin values of capitalism and democracy. Tonight in the third of our series of "SPECIAL REPORTs" with "The Economist", we examine perhaps, the most important challenge for capitalism and democracy, china. Lou Dobbs has the story.


LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): From Russia to South Korea. And in power struggles all around the world democracy is winning.

BILL EMMOTT, EDITOR IN CHIEF, "THE ECONOMIST": The market share for democracy is about 50 percent of the world's population for the first time in history. That's a fantastic development.

DOBBS: But now a critical test for capitalism and democracy is here, in china. China is now a member of the World Trade Organization. It claims a booming economic growth rate of 7 percent. But will democracy inevitably follow?

DR. CHENG LI, PROFESSOR OF GOVERNMENT, HAMILTON COLLEGE: It's not a question about when democracy is coming to China, but rather, democracy is already happening in China. If we consider democracy is not event but a process.

DR. MINXIN PEI, CARNEGIE ENDOWMENT FOR INTERNATIONAL PEACE: When you measure democracy, which really means ordinary people's ability to participate in the decision-making process of the Chinese government, it is practically non-existent.

DOBBS: Chang Lee and Ming Sun Pei (ph) were both born in Shanghai. Both survived China's cultural revolution before coming to the United States to study. Both are now U.S. citizens. Both are political scientists with dramatically different views on when real democracy will arrive in China. CHANG LEE, PROFESSOR: China is a good student of American democracy. They emphasize the economic development first. Now people have property rights. They own their own companies. There's a very dynamic private sector.

DOBBS: Professor Lee says signs of Democratic progress are everywhere. Consumer, environmental, and gay rights. The Institution of Term Limits for provincial party leaders. And a growth rate in lawyers that rivals the United States.

Many blame the Chinese government for prolonging the SARS epidemic by covering it up. Still, Chang sees good news in the eventual about-face by the communist government.

LEE: Thanks to SARS, now China has 24 hours news coverage and the daily press release. The release of the proceedings of the central government meetings.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On the other hand, this time the government used a very draconian measures, mandatory quarantines, all kinds of measures that people in the west would not easily accept.

DOBBS: Though China's embrace of democracy may be debatable, the country's rapid economic development is not.

ALAN BOECKMANN, CHAIRMAN, CEO FLUOR CORP: China is already the world's largest telecommunications industry. With over 400 subscribers to telephones in China. It's the third largest Internet user, 33 percent increase, Just last year in the consumption of durable goods.

DOBBS: Fluor, an engineering, construction, and maintenance company, has invested more than $8 billion in the country over the past seven years.

Although China has consistently overstated foreign investment, it now claims that figure has reached a record $50 billion.

The emergence of a growing Chinese economy has created other records. A trade surplus with the United States alone of more than $100 billion.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What's changing is that the sort of areas in which China competes is moving very quickly up market, more sophisticated manufactured goods, but also services.

DOBBS: The migration of factories to China is not solely an American challenge and problem. Developing economies from Mexico to Southeast Asia are also losing jobs to China's pool of low wages and high skills.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The entrepreneurism is on a significant rise in China. We're able to do deals quicker and faster than we were able to do them, say, five or six years ago.

DOBBS: Even the bedrock of capitalism, protection of property rights, is now made in China.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It has courts. There is the ability to hold companies and individuals to account. There is the ability to use the courts to act as independent arbitrators. These are very important elements of the rule of law.

DOBBS: But Dr. Pei (ph) believes all this adds up to a China where the degree of real change is being vastly overstated.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you understand something about authoritarian political systems and capitalism, you would know that at the fundamental level they really do not mix very well.


HOPKINS: Joining us now for more on capitalism, democracy, and China is the founder of the largest independent manufacturer in China. Jack Perkowski is the chairman and chief executive officer of Asimco. He founded it 10 years ago on the belief that China would become the manufacturing base of the global economy.

Jack Perkowski joins us now. And you were right.

JACK PERKOWSKI, CEO, ASIMCO: Well, there's two parts to it actually. There's not only the manufacturing factor, but there's also the market factor. China is rapidly becoming the largest market in many, many product areas.

HOPKINS: And you're providing a lot of things to the Chinese market. You're making...

PERKOWSKI: Right, about 80 percent of our sales go to the Chinese automotive market, and then about 20 percent is exported.

HOPKINS: And you started your company on your credit card?

PERKOWSKI: Yes, it was American Express Platinum. Basically, before we went and set up the company, of course, we had to do our due diligence to make sure that the concept made sense. The concept was to bring capital, management and technology to good companies in China. So in the first nine months of 1993 myself and a couple of other people that I'd recruited visited about 100 factories in 40 cities all over China, and essentially I paid for all those trips with my American Express card. And so when I tell people how we started I say that our capital in the beginning was my American Express card.

HOPKINS: And now you're profitable in quite a large company.

PERKOWSKI: Yes, we're a very profitable company. We're actually more profitable than comparable companies in our industry in the United States. We're growing very rapidly, both because of the market opportunity but also because of the manufacturing opportunity.

HOPKINS: Can any other country compete with China?

PERKOWSKI: I think it depends on the products. I mean, I think that, you know, China has things that it does very well. If you take lower value-added high labor content products it would be very difficult for other companies in other countries to compete with China over the long term.

China also is rapidly developing its engineering talent and so forth. So I think as time goes by there will be a graduation to higher value-added. But for the time being, you know, companies that have higher value-added, you know, for example, in the United States, can compete quite well.

HOPKINS: On this issue of capitalism and democracy, do you think that capitalism, the more capitalistic China becomes, the more democracy we're going to see?

PERKOWSKI: Yes, because I think capitalism basically sows the seeds or lays the foundation for democracy.

You know, essentially you can't have a truly capitalistic society unless you have, you know, the basic freedoms. You have to be able -- the freedom to operate your business in a way that makes sense and is profitable and so forth. So it sets the stage for more and more freedoms. You also can't operate a business in any part of the world without a free flow of information. So with the freedoms comes a free flow of information. Those are two key ingredients of a democracy.

HOPKINS: Thanks. Jack Perkowski, the CEO of Asimco. Thanks for joining us from Beijing.

PERKOWSKI: Yes. Thank you. I got in Sunday.

HOPKINS: When we return, the preliminary results of tonight's poll. And we'll take you inside the smallest hotel room in the world. Next.


HOPKINS: The preliminary results of tonight's poll: "Do you think the United States should allow foreign guest workers?" Forty percent of you said yes, and 60 percent said no.

Finally tonight, sleeping tight. One New York hotel has based its advertising around the size of its rooms. And that may not seem revolutionary until you realize that it is the lack of size that's so remarkable.

Jeanne Moos has the story.


JEANNE MOOS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Most hotels offer a room with a bed, but how about a bed with no room?

VALERIE KUBALA, HOTEL GUEST: I think if you stretch your arms and stretch your legs you can about touch four walls in one.

MOOS: New York hotel rooms are notoriously small, but this is ridiculous.

(on camera): Mind if I check? There you go.

(voice-over): We're talking rooms that are as little as eight feet wide and nine feet long. The TV hangs from the ceiling.

You can book one of these minuscule rooms at the Washington- Jefferson Hotel for $99, a bargain for mid-town Manhattan.

BOB LINDENBAUM, DIR. OF COMFORT, WJ HOTEL: When we renovated the whole building, we basically had these small spaces left, and we came up with the concept of something for the budget luxury traveler.

MOOS: Budget luxury? Sounds like an oxymoron. Sure, there are tighter quarters at those Japanese capsule hotels where guests sleep in pods stacked atop one another. But the WJ bills itself as luxury.

LINDENBAUM: The two-tone limestone bathroom.

MOOS: Though the view isn't much. You get a mini-armoire with a mini-ironing board. The British occupant of this room says she had no idea what she was in for.

KUBALA: It was a shock, actually, when we opened the door. When you open your door, and that's your bed.

MOOS: Valerie Kubala says she booked from the internet, and the rooms looked spacious there. Out of 127 rooms, 17 are teeny. Sort of makes you feel like you've stepped into a cross between "Alice in Wonderland" and "Being John Malkovich."

(on camera): What do you do with your suitcase?

LINDENBAUM: Most people pretty much put it underneath the bed.

MOOS (voice-over): That's where Valerie put hers. But tiny rooms are nothing compared to the WJ's previous claim to fame.

(on camera): So the cheese room was right back here?


MOOS (voice-over): Back before the hotel was renovated, we covered this story in Room 114.


MOOS (voice-over): Don't bother calling the maid. Not unless she's fond of fondue.


MOOS: An artist covered the room with 1,000 pounds of melted cheese. Talk about having a fling at a hotel.

Now, that's room service. Jeanne Moos, CNN, New York.


HOPKINS: And that's our show tonight. Thanks for joining us. Tomorrow our guests include General David Grange. For all of us here, good night from New York.


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