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Interview with Mark Ramsey; Unemployment Jumps to 6.4 Percent

Aired July 3, 2003 - 18:00   ET


ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS TONIGHT for Thursday, July 3. Sitting in for Lou Dobbs, Jan Hopkins.
JAN HOPKINS, HOST: Good evening everyone.

Tonight, glooming news for Americans looking for work and Americans worried about keeping their jobs. This countries unemployment rate jumped up to 6.4 percent last month, as the economy lost another 30,000 jobs. The numbers indicate the economic recovery is not only a jobless recovery, it is also a job-losing recovery.

Peter Viles has our report.


PETER VILES, CNNfn CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): More than two years after the economy slipped into recession, the labor market shows no signs of improvement. The June numbers are these, unemployment spiked to 6.4 percent, highest rate in nine years. Thirty thousand jobs lost in the month. On average those without work have been looking for nearly 20 weeks. That's the longest average in nearly 20 years. And the economy has now lost 2.6 million jobs since March of 2001.

Joe Bergmann last worked full-time for an Internet marketing company nearly two years ago.

JOE BERGMANN, UNEMPLOYED: Well, I've sent out over 2,000 resumes, and I've gotten 10 responses out of that. I've gotten three interviews. All three of those jobs evaporated, nobody got the job. The job just disappeared. So that's the market we're in right now.

VILES: The Bush administration inherited a weakening economy, but acknowledged it is disappointed in the jobless recovery.

ELAINE CHAO, LABOR SECRETARY: It's a disappointment that the recovery so far has not been as robust as all of us would like. The president's jobs and economic growth plan, certainly, recently passed by the Congress certainly should help that.

VILES: Wall Street took the jobless spike in stride, though, continuing to bet on a second half recovery. Many economists pointed out a surge of new job seekers actually skewed the June numbers.

WILLIAM DUDLEY, GOLDMAN SACHS: The unemployment rate rose sharply this month because of a big increase in the labor force. So it's probably not as disturbing as it looks on the surface. I think the stock market is responding to the fact that expectations are that the economy's going to do better in the second half of the year.

VILES: Investors tend to brush off jobless reports as what they call a lagging indicator, but the jobless rate has never lagged like this before. In the last recession the much talked about jobless recovery lasted 14 months. That is, 14 months of growth before the jobless rate peaked. But in the current cycle it's been 20 months since growth resumed, yet we still don't know if the unemployment rate has peaked.


VILES: Now, there are complicated ways to explain what's happening here. They have to do with increasing worker productivity and a lack of business investment. But there's also a very simple way to explain this. The economy is just not growing fast enough to create new jobs -- Jan.

HOPKINS: So Pete, is it possible that we could see a recovery in the economy in the second half of the year and still have rising unemployment?

VILES: Sure. The economy could have already turned the corner. What often happens at this stage is the economy turns the corner, people who have not been looking for jobs, thus don't show up in the statistics, come into the job market looking before the job is there for them.

HOPKINS: And part of that we saw this month, right?

VILES: That's what happened this month. A lot of people thought the job market was a little better than it was, so the number went up. We could continue to see that even though the economy turns the corner. We could get a couple of months where the numbers go up even though the underlying news is better.

HOPKINS: Thanks. Pete Viles.

Later in the broadcast we will have much more on the rising unemployment rate, reaction in the markets and the possible political fallout.

Turning overseas, at least 10 soldiers were wounded in attacks on U.S. forces in Iraq today. The United States stepped up the hunt for Saddam Hussein today, offering up a $25 million reward for his capture. The coalition also offered $15 million for information leading to the arrest of either of Saddam Hussein's two sons.

Senior Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre has the story.


JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SENIOR PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): What's left of a U.S. army Humvee smolders on a Baghdad street. The latest evidence of the increasingly bold attacks that are inflicting daily casualties on U.S. forces.

LT. COL. JOSE ROBLEZ, U.S. ARMY: We believe someone fired a rocket-propelled grenade or some other kind of explosive device was launched against the third vehicle in the military convoy, and it consumed the vehicle.

MCINTYRE: With U.S. commanders convinced the belief that Saddam Hussein may still be alive is fueling the daring guerrilla attacks, the U.S. has now put a $25 million bounty on his head, and is offering $15 million for either of his sons. U.S. senators just back from Iraq are unanimous that getting Saddam is the key to restoring peace.

SEN. JOHN WARNER (R-VA): Believe me. He's not 10 feet tall. He's damn near 10 feet in the ground.

MCINTYRE: Despite the inability of the U.S. military to quash the resistance so far. The commander of U.S. forces insists more troops is not the answer.

LT. GEN. RICHARD SANCHEZ, U.S. ARMY: In terms of needing any more forces. I don't need any more forces.

MCINTYRE: But fresh troops are needed to relieve the battle- weary forces. Especially non-American troops, says one of the senators.

SEN. CARL LEVIN (D-MI), ARMED SERVICES CMTE.: First we must end the feud with Germany, France, and with the U.N. We must seek the help of those countries. We must the support and participation of NATO and the U.N.

MCINTYRE: The senators toured Iraq for three days and got classified briefings from U.S. and British commanders.

SEN. MARK DAYTON (D-MN), ARMED SERVICE CMTE.: We were told, unequivocally, by military command that the war continues and it's being engaged actively by U.S. forces. We were told that the next 60 to 90 days would be crucial, and that while it will take time, time is not on our side.

MCINTYRE: One ominous trend, anti-American insurgents are gradually adopting more sophisticated and more deadly tactics.

SEN. JOHN ROCKEFELLER (D-WV), INTELLIGENCE VICE CHAIRMAN: This sheet of paper outlines how you come up and then you kill that American or wound that American by shooting beneath the bottom of the Kevlar helmet and the top of the body armor. That has been practiced in a number of cases.

MCINTYRE: U.S. commanders told the lawmakers the U.S. was in a race against time to neutralize the disparate anti-American groups before they unite.

SEN. JACK REED (D-RI), ARMED SERVICE CMTE.: One fear is that these three groups will somehow find common cause against us, and that would be a significant problem. (END VIDEOTAPE)

MCINTYRE: Among the sobering insights brought back from the senators on their return from Iraq, the observation that Americans should be prepared, that U.S. Forces will be in Iraq for a long time with a large number of troops -- Jan.

HOPKINS: Jamie, is the pentagon worried about the possible impact of television images that show U.S. soldiers being wounded in Iraq and U.S. vehicles on fire?

MCINTYRE: Well, they're clearly not happy about what's going on in terms of those incidents. But it's not the kind of reaction we saw, for instance, when U.S. troops were dragged through the streets of Somalia in 1993. The big difference, of course, is that the U.S. isn't just half-way into Iraq, it's very committed there. And the U.S. Policy there is one of a very aggressive action against these insurgent forces. So while obviously they're not happy that these kinds of pictures, these kinds of events are taking place and that people are seeing those pictures, they say it only increases their resolve and the resolve of the U.S. troops there.

HOPKINS: Jamie McIntyre at the Pentagon. Thanks.

President Bush today said that there is no doubt that Saddam Hussein had a program to develop weapons of mass destruction. The president also spoke about his upcoming visit to Africa in an interview with CNN international's "INSIDE AFRICA." That interview will be aired in full on CNN tomorrow at noon Eastern and 10:00 p.m. Eastern. The president said he is still considering whether or not to send U.S. troops to Liberia.


GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I'm the kind of person that likes to know all the facts before I make a decision. And we've got a special, you know, ties to Liberia. There's historical ties to the United States, that's why we are involved in this issue. And I'm going to look at all the options, determine how best to bring peace and stability. But one thing has to happen, that's Mr. Taylor needs to leave leave.


HOPKINS: The president's national security adviser, Condoleezza Rice, today said that Liberian leader Charles Taylor is a problem for Liberia and a problem for West Africa. Some U.S. Marines are already in Liberia protecting the American embassy in Monrovia. U.S. commanders are preparing to make a recommendation to the president on what type of U.S. Force, if any, should be sent to Liberia.

U.S. troops are already deployed in many other countries from Bosnia and Kosovo in Europe to Japan and South Korea in Asia. Thousands of troops are based overseas, including 9,000 in Afghanistan, 146,000 in Iraq, 43,000 in Japan, 37,000 in South Korea. With U.S. troops under fire in Iraq, I will talk about conflicting national goals for the military with General David Grange later in the broadcast. In "Grange on Point."

In the war on terror, President Bush today designated six captives as eligible for trial by U.S. military commissions. Officials did not identify the six. The officials say that the president believes the captives are members of al Qaeda or involved in terrorism against the United States.

Saudi Arabia today said the top suspect in the suicide bomb attacks in Riyadh has been killed in a shootout with police. Three other radical Islamists were also killed. The shootout took place yesterday in a town in northern Saudi Arabia, about 550 miles from Riyadh. The bomb attacks in Riyadh two months ago killed 34 people, including nine Americans and the suicide bombers.

A clear reminder today that progress in the Middle East peace process is fragile and always in danger of unraveling. A rocket attack on an Israeli settlement was immediately followed by an Israeli security operation on the main Gaza highway. That highway was returned to Palestinian control earlier in the week amid much fanfare.

Matthew Chance has the report from Gaza.


MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This is meant to be the road that symbolizes the benefits of peace for ordinary Palestinians. Israeli checkpoints that make travel for the many here so difficult were meant to have gone. Some believed this gridlock would be forgotten. Their hopes were short-lived.

This is just a show, says Basim. They still control the whole area. As long as we can see them, it's not right, he says.

Whatever happened to the Israelis last night, it's not our fault, is it? says Mohammed. So why are they back? Israel says its blockade, which has now been lifted, was in response to this rocket attack overnight on the Jewish settlement of Kafa Durom, nestled inside the Gaza strip. A number of injuries were reported.

Himself visiting Gaza, the Palestinian Prime Minister, Mahmoud Abbas, was quick to condemn the actions of renegade militants opposed to the current truce with Israel.

These are acts of sabotage, he said. and we do not accept them. But support among Palestinians for a truce some see as one-sided may be wearing thin. In the west bank town of Cal Kylia, thousands attended the funeral of Mahmoud Shawa, a commander of the militant al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, shot dead by Israeli troops during an operation to arrest militants. Al Aqsa, which has been ambiguous towards a cease-fire all along, says it will respond. The coming days could pose more challenges for those set on Israeli-Palestinian peace.

These latest incidents underline just how fragile is the progress that's been made between the two sides in recent days. Hopes are still with Israel and the Palestinians living up to their commitments. But doubts loom large the U.S.-backed road map peace plan can survive even its first step. Matthew chance, CNN, Gaza.


HOPKINS: Still ahead tonight Grange on point, as the White House considers sending U.S. troops to Liberia. General David Grange joins us to discuss the role of the U.S. military around the world.

And then, living the American dream comes at a high cost. Kitty Pilgrim reports on why Americans take less vacation than any other developed nation.


HOPKINS: Stocks fell in a short fashion today after the unemployment rate rose to a 9-year high. Dow industrials fell more than 72 points. The Nasdaq lost more than 15. The S&P 500 slipped 8. Susan Lisovicz is here with the market.

SUSAN LISOVICZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hey, Jan, of course the die was cast an hour before the opening bell when that June jobs report came out.. Investors have been buying stocks on the premise that the economy is on the mend and this report was a set back. Twenty-eight of the 30 Dow stocks sold off and one of the worst performers was AT&T, losing 2 1/3 percent on a debt downgrade from Standard & Poor's. Delta Airlines was grounded after reporting June traffic slowed more than 5 percent from a year earlier.

Declining stocks beat advancers at the NYSE and the Nasdaq, but some bucked the trend even on bad news. The medical device maker Boston Scientific said its full-year earnings will fall below Wall Street's expectations but rose anyway. And software player Siebel Systems rallied even as it said its license revenue will dip below previous forecasts.

Despite today's sell-off, the big three indices pulled off a winning week with the Nasdaq registering a gain of better than 2 percent. Jan, some analysts sate market would have sold off more after the jobs report if there was not the persistent belief that there are other signs of economic improvement. And of course, that belief will be tested next week as second quarter earnings start pouring in. Alcoa, a Dow 30 stock, the first big stock to report, company to report, and that is on Tuesday.

HOPKINS: But the market is still definitely betting that things are getting better.

LISOVICZ: No question about it. And all three indices up solidly for the year.

HOPKINS: Susan Lisovicz.

Coming up, Italian Prime Minister Sylvio Berlusconi is not known for his tact. But he may have finally gone too far. That story is coming up.

And then, should the U.S. send troops to Liberia? We'll share some of your e-mails.

And grange on point. U.S. troops fight wars, keep the peace, and act as police in 120 countries around the world. General David Grange on conflicting goals of the U.S. military.


HOPKINS: Tonight a warning that the world's wild weather is here to stay. The United Nations Meteorological Organization has issued a global warming alert. The panel predicts that incidents of radical weather will increase as the world continues to heat up. Global temperatures in May were the second highest since records began in 1880. The ten hottest years in the past 143 years have occurred since 1990.

Italian Prime Minister Sylvio Berlusconi has unraveled -- an unrivaled talent for upsetting people. But even his supporters concede he may have gone too far by comparing a German politician with a Nazi concentration camp guard. Berlusconi has expressed regret, but the damage has been done. Fionnuala Sweeney reports on Berlusconi's colorful and often undiplomatic language.


FIONNUALA SWEENEY, CNNI CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It's not the first time Mr. Berlusconi has raised eyebrows with his blunt and outspoken comments. What some consider one of his most serious blunders occurred after the September 11 attacks in the United States, when he noted the Islamic origins of the hijackers.

SILVIO BERLUSCONI, ITALIAN PRIME MINISTER (through translator): We should be conscious of the superiority of our civilization, which consists of a value system that has given people widespread prosperity in those countries that embrace it and guarantees respect for human rights and religion. This respect certainly does not exist in the Islamic countries.

SWEENEY: His comments caused outrage around the world. But he said at the time they had been taken out of context and blamed what he called the Italian leftist press for creating the controversy.

In October of last year, Mr. Berlusconi left many reporters scratching their heads when he called his Danish counterpart "the best-looking prime minister in Europe." He added -- quote -- "He's so good-looking I'm even thinking of introducing him to my wife."

Eight months earlier, Mr. Berlusconi had disrupted a 2002 group photograph of EU foreign ministers in Spain by raising two fingers behind the head of the Spanish foreign minister.

People familiar with the Italian premier say he's also prone to making lewd jokes, something the Italian Prime Minister Massimo D'Alema once described as "planetary gaffes."

Everyone from Finnish people to AIDS patients to Communists have been the target of his attempts at humor. "I'm sorry for having said Communists eat babies, but if you want, I can organize a conference in which I will prove Communists have really eaten babies."

His critics say he can't be trusted with the future of the EU.

MIRANDA GREEN, FINANCIAL TIMES: He's already offended the commission. His relations with Romano Prodi, the head of the commission, are not good. He's already on quite bad terms with the French government. And now he's also succeeded in offending Germany.

SWEENEY: Commentators say Mr. Berlusconi is more comfortable as a showman than statesman. In the run-up to the 2001 election, he was widely quoted as saying, "I have little hair because my brain is so big, it pushes the hair out."

Fionnuala Sweeney, CNN, London.


HOPKINS: Now let's take a look at some of your thoughts. Many of you wrote about our face-off last night debating whether the United States should allow foreign guest workers.

Kenny Birch of Wauseon, Ohio, wrote: "Illegal Mexicans should not be able to gain easy entry into the United States. Give those jobs to out of work America."

Shaun Wilkerson from Dallas asked, "Why are we bringing in foreign workers when so many Americans are out of work?"

And Sylvia Praesel of Austin, Texas asked, "Who else do you think is going to pave the streets, construct our homes, pick up the garbage and clean up our offices? Hard work is needed in the United States. Sometimes it's hard to find within our own citizens."

On the issue of sending U.S. troops to Liberia, Joyce Hirsch of St. Paul, Minnesota, said -- "Absolutely no troops to Liberia. We need more help stabilizing Iraq. Let the United Nations and the European Union handle it. They refused us help when we needed it."

And Victor Ladipo from Canada, wrote, "This is the best time the American government has to show the world that they help and police not only in places with natural resources, but places like Africa with nothing to gain other than peace."

And David Stachelski of Honolulu wrote about lawsuits against fast food and tobacco. Quote -- "It seems that my personal choice to smoke a cigarette or eat fast food should not result in litigation, costing billions of taxpayer dollars."

We love hearing from you. You can e-mail us your thoughts at

Coming up, Americans put in more hours at work than any other developed country in the world. Kitty Pilgrim looks at what's behind the work ethic.

And puppy love -- 53 foxy little dogs rescued and ready for adoption. Jeanne Moos will have that story.


HOPKINS: The number of Americans celebrating their independence with out-of-town trips is rising. AAA estimates that 37.5 million people will travel at least 50 miles from home this weekend, mostly by car. It will be the largest number of July 4 travelers in almost a decade. Air travel, though, is expected to drop by 2 percent.

Many Americans may be setting out for a long holiday weekend. But overall, vacation time in this country pales in comparison to every other developed nation in the world.

Kitty Pilgrim reports on what's behind the American work ethic.


KITTY PILGRIM, CNNfn CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Americans get a lot less vacation than the rest of much of the industrialized world.

According to one study, in many European countries the number of standard vacation days after a year's work runs close to 30. That is not so in Japan or in the United States, where it falls to 10.

Europeans for the most part have no sympathy.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's for the Americans to sort out, isn't it? I think they get far too less holidays, but that's for them to sort out.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think a lot of them choose to. They work too hard.

PILGRIM: Americans traveling in Europe seem in awe of the traditional month-long exodus, when families head for the beach or the mountains.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: August is the European time for vacation. It's a tradition. So, I mean, what can I say?

PILGRIM: As bad as it seems now, the work week used to be longer. In America, hours have been declining for the last 40 years as manufacturing gave way to the service economy. Now, in the service economy, the official hours worked are shorter, but companies are cutting back on paid hours, and unpaid overtime is rampant.

ROBERT BRUSCA, NATIVE AMERICAN SECURITIES: I think the big problem is that there's been a big increase in hours worked that aren't paid and that aren't recorded, sort of a stealth increase in hours worked.

PILGRIM: And travel experts say these days Americans are opting for four-day weekends instead of leaving the office for weeks at a time.

DANA DICKEY, CONDE NAST TRAVELER: Around the world, Americans are laughed at for our workaholism. It's just kind of part of our culture. And also I think it's fear, especially, in this economy. You know don't know, you take two weeks -- who knows? Your desk might be given away when you get home.


PILGRIM: Now economists say that's why American productivity is so high. The hours worked are actually declining. But unpaid time spent on the job -- well, that's another thing. And that productivity comes with a price. And the price is your vacation -- Jan.

HOPKINS: But what about companies? Are they allowing you to carryover vacation from one year to the next?

PILGRIM: Well, this is an interesting trend. And more and more companies are. By one survey, about 60 percent of companies are allowing vacation time to be carried over.

But again, people are afraid to take it. They don't want to leave that desk empty for too long because you look like you may get along just fine without you.

HOPKINS: Thanks. Kitty Pilgrim.

And now tonight's thought on the benefit of a vacation. "Every now and then go away. Have a little relaxation, for when you come back to your work, your judgment will be sure." That is from Leonardo da Vinci.

In "News Across America" tonight, there was a bomb scare near New York's LaGuardia Airport today. Two flares and an alarm clock were taped together to look like a bomb. They were found along with a loaded gun in a rental car near the airport. The rental car agency was evacuated, and several blocks around the site were cordoned off.

Nearly 300 airport screeners at Los Angeles International Airport have been fired or had their badges revoked. Twenty-nine of those screeners had criminal histories. The rest were dismissed because they didn't get their fingerprints taken on time.

A dangerous situation still exists in Florida tonight. The scene of a massive fireworks explosion is still smoldering and police are concerned that there are still live shells near the truck. A fifth person died today as a result of yesterday's explosion.

Former Vermont Governor Harold Dean is -- Howard Dean, rather, is making his opponents for the 2004 presidential election sit up and take notice. Dean raised more money in the latest quarter than any of the other Democratic candidates for president. But while a sizable war chest can help, it does not guarantee victory. Not by a long shot.

Candy Crowley reports. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We got that money mostly in small donations from people who came to meetings like this who had never done anything like this.

CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): You are essentially looking at a Howard Dean rally. Minus the balloons, minus Howard Dean.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Someone was telling me that they were on a bus in downtown Washington, D.C. And they saw the Howard Dean for America bumper -- button, and they said, yes, that's that guy that raised $7 1/2 million. He's doing really well.

CROWLEY: A Web site called Meetup, which puts together people of similar interests, says nearly 20,000 people met up Wednesday night in 285 cities to support, rally for, and otherwise discuss Howard Dean.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I liked John Kerry at first, but I kind of more liked his biography and his story, but I find him as a speaker not too entertaining, you know, and not really able to draw people in. And the rest of them, I think, are really boring.

CROWLEY: By almost any standard Howard Dean is doing really well. Defying the odds, mastering Internet politics, generating heat with his piercing anti-Bush rhetoric.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, just he was perfect. He said everything that I was feeling.

CROWLEY: Yes, but can he win? Or is Dean, as one rival camp put it, just another in a long line of quirky insurgents a la Bill Bradley or John McCain?

Like McCain and before him Eugene Mccarthy, Dean has tapped into the dreams of the young. But it was not enough for McCain and Mccarthy. It will not be enough for Dean. There is a reason most politicians court the young only occasionally. They do not vote in large numbers. Even at the meetups mostly young and white crowds, there is hesitation, there is doubt.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The people that I talked to were pretty honest about how they felt about Dean. They know that he's a candidate they like. They also feel that there are other front- runners. Kerry was one that most people felt really was the front- runner. Lieberman's name comes up.

CROWLEY: The political case against a Dean victory generally takes two paths. Either he is too liberal for the mainstream, where elections are won, or he's really a moderate who will eventually alienate his liberal base. It is all dismissed by the Dean camp as typical Washington think. And at the meet-ups they are thinking a different thing altogether.

PAUL MCKENZIE, DEAN VOLUNTEER: Howard dean is going to be the next president of the United States, and you're going to help make it happen.


CROWLEY: So can Howard Dean win the presidency? Well, we can say that his odds right now are looking a lot better than they did a year ago, when he entered the race as a little-known governor from Vermont -- Jan.

HOPKINS: But one of the questions, Candy, is will he wear well?

CROWLEY: Absolutely, that's one of the questions. I can tell you, he hasn't worn well on his opponents, who do find him irritating. His supporters find him refreshing. He tends to say, you know, whatever is on his mind, which his supporters like a lot. But he tends to be a little thin-skinned. He had what has now been a fairly infamous appearance on "Meet the Press" a couple of weeks ago, when he seemed to stumble all over a lot of answers and did get prickly about them.

Look, when you get into the top tier, that's the good news. The bad news is that people begin to scrutinize you, the media and others, everything you say. So what you've said in the past now is measured up against what you're saying now. So there will be a lot of that, and Howard Dean knows it's coming. He even said so. So a long time between now and January.

HOPKINS: And the issues? Can we tell what they are? Is it going to be jobs and the economy?

CROWLEY: Sure, for the general campaign, I think that the Democrats have always thought that jobs and the economy have -- are the main things, and mostly the economy. They look a lot at the stock market, as you know, now because so many people have 401(k)s and pension plans and are tied up in the stock market. So a lot of it is tied up there.

For the primary, because you're talking to a more liberal Democrat than in a general election, the issue has always been who's going to take on George Bush? What you're seeing in this Dean bloom is people who have been dying for some Democrat to stand up and really take it to the White House on various subjects, and Dean has fit that bill. And for the liberal activist wing of the Democratic party that has been very nice for them to hear.

HOPKINS: Candy Crowley, thanks for joining us.


HOPKINS: Turning now to tonight's poll, how confident are you that your job is safe after today's unemployment numbers, very, somewhat, not at all, or don't have a job? Cast your vote at We'll bring you the preliminary results later in the show.

Now the final results of yesterday's poll. We asked, do you think the United States should allow foreign guest workers? 18 percent of you said yes, and 82 percent said no.

When we return, Grange on point. The role of American troops around the world, from fighting wars to keeping peace, are the goals of the United States being compromised?

And then hot reels, the summer blockbuster season is under way, and it's shaping up to be a scorcher. Casey Wian has a preview.


HOPKINS: Tonight in Grange on point, conflicting national goals. U.S. military forces are trained to fight wars, but once those missions are over they often called upon to act as police, administrators, and civil service workers. In the process, many troops are killed. General David Grange joins us now.

So General what's the mission of the armed services of this country? Is it to fight wars or is that mission changing?

RETIRED BRIG. GEN. DAVID GRANGE, U.S. ARMY: Well, many services, the mission statement is to fight the nation's wars and win them. And of course the goal is to win them, that's the American way, but there's a lot of other missions that the armed forces gets tasked to do, and I believe they're appropriate, but they're quite extensive.

HOPKINS: And now that we have armed forces in so many places around the world with so many commitments, how can we expect them to carry out these roles in so many places?

GRANGE: Well, that's really the issue. I think that the military is tasked to do the heavy lifting for many of the other means available to a nation, and the reason being when -- let's say you go into combat like in Iraq, and then the major combat operations end and you go into stability operations. The other governmental agencies, or other international agencies are not ready to go. There's no police, either in the nation itself or international police task forces. There's no one to do the water, no one to do the electricity, the roads, nothing. And so the military ends up doing that work as well. And so their mission expands right after or during combat operations. And so it's quite a burden.

HOPKINS: And also, there are a lot of risks to the G.Is in this kind of transitioning, like we're seeing in Iraq, right?

GRANGE: Exactly, and elsewhere. For instance, a lot of people say, well, you go on a peacekeeping operation, it's not as dangerous as combat. Well, in fact, the peacekeeping operation or the stability phase that we're going through in Iraq right now for our armed forces and the British armed forces is very dangerous because you don't know who the enemy is, you don't know who the friend or foe, and you're trying to win hearts and minds, you're trying to transition to get a Democratic governance and a market economy going and establish rule of law, and people are dying. And it's very hard for people to understand that. So it's very difficult.

HOPKINS: And a lot of risks. GRANGE: A lot of risk. And it's not front lines. It's 360 degrees. It's from behind you to the side of you, left and right, above, below. And so it really takes a lot of situational awareness and understanding of the cultures and environments. And it's a tall order for the armed forces.

HOPKINS: And are the armed forces trained to kind of switch from one role to another so quickly?

GRANGE: Well, they should be. They'd better be. That's the commander's responsibility. But it's one of the toughest things to do because you train for the most violent option that you may encounter, which is war, and then you have to transition to these other tasks, and some of them, it's almost like police work in the same time you may have to, in seconds, turn back to a combat G.I. And then you may be helping your a mayor of a town as a captain or a lieutenant or you're a policeman.

I mean, it's very difficult. And so to train soldiers, marines, and that, to do that type of task takes a lot of time, which there's never enough of, and very demanding.

HOPKINS: So how do you reduce the risks?

GRANGE: You reduce the risks by either having an armed forces robust enough to be deployed around the world and all the tasks that we're doing, and I think there's a few more tasks than we probably have troops available. Because remember, it's not just numbers. Many troops don't deploy. They support people deploying, or they run schools in the United States, hospitals. They're the recruiting base, the trainers. They run the ports and facilities and airports. So it's a lot of other tasks besides those fighters.

So really, you're kind of dipping in pretty deep to the amount of armed forces that we have available. And there's a lot of small missions around the world. For instance, the army's in about 200 of them now, you that don't even hear about. There may be 12 guys here or 10 or 100, but they eat up the numbers. And so you need to have the troops have time to recover, to retrain, spend time with their family, and prepare for the next mission.

HOPKINS: And now we're talking about Liberia.

GRANGE: And now we're talking about Liberia, which I believe we have to do, but again, it's not just, oh, we have 1,000 left here or 200 here, it's really can you sustain this effort for the long run with the size force we have?

And I would say we don't have a large enough force.

HOPKINS: Brigadier General David Grange, thanks so much for joining us. "Grange on Point."

Next week in "Grange on Point": What our troops need over there from the most basic necessities to the most high-tech equipment. Some U.S. of the U.S. military personnel are dangerously short of supplies. General Grange will highlight some of the most critical shortfalls. That's next Thursday at 6:00 p.m. Eastern.

"Tonight's Quote" comes from Capitol Hill from a senator who was part of the delegation that recently returned from Iraq. He had this to say about Saddam Hussein. "We will get him. But the specter of his past brutality does hang over this entire operation and does to some extent impede the progress by which other civilians, Iraqis, would feel free to come ahead. But believe me, he is not 10 feet tall, he is damn near 10 feet in the ground."

That's from Senator John Warner, the chairman of the Armed Services Committee.

Reminder now to vote in tonight's poll. "How confident are you that your job is safe after today's unemployment numbers?" Very, somewhat, not at all, or you don't have a job. Cast your vote at And we'll bring you preliminary results in just a few minutes.

When we come back, hot reels. The summer's biggest blockbusters. Casey Wian has a look at the leaders and laggers at the box office. And then Mark Ramzi of will join us.

And tails of love: these terriers have had more than their share of dog days. It doesn't seem to bother them, though. Jeanne Moos will have our story.


HOPKINS: Hollywood is kicking off the 4th of July with a bang. A handful of big-budget potential blockbusters are being release. The hope is that they will light a fire under what has so far been a soft year at the box office.

Casey Wian has the story from Los Angeles.


CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Hollywood's summer movie hype is in full swing. To listen to Arnold Schwarzenegger, you'd think the opportunity to make a few hundred million dollars for himself, Warner Brothers, and Sony had nothing to do with the decision to make "Terminator 3."

ARNOLD SCHWARZENEGGER, ACTOR: It was actually the fans that really drove this whole thing. They demanded for the last 12 years to have another terminator come back, another movie to continue with that franchise. So it's really the fans. This is all about the fans.

WIAN: So far this year fewer fans are coming to U.S. Movie theaters. The box office take is down 4 percent, with ticket prices rising, actual attendance is down nearly 8 percent. Hopes for turning that around rest largely on the broad shoulders of "Terminator 3" now that "The Hulk" and "Charlie's Angels: Full Throttle" have underperformed expectations.

MARTY GROVE, HOLLYWOODREPORTER.COM: If we have a good July 4th weekend, which it looks like we will have because "Terminator 3" looks very strong, looks like an $80 million potential five-day figure for them. If that's the case, by the time summer ends we could be flat with last year.

WIAN: Also opening this holiday weekend, "Legally Blonde: Red, White and Blue." The summer movie slate is teeming with sea-going fare. "Finding Nemo" from Pixar and Disney this week swam past a quarter billion dollars at the box office. Dreamworks'"Sinbad: Legend of the Seven Seas" is another potential blockbuster 4th of July opening. Then next week it will battle Disney's "Pirates of the Caribbean: The Curse of the Black Pearl."

JEFF JENSEN, ENTERTAINMENT WEEKLY: We usually see movies inspire theme park rides. Now it's the reverse. Those Disney folk really need to invest more money into trying to find a good script.

WIAN: Pirates will find some new territory, the first Disney movie ever rated PG-13. Studios have been spicing up family flicks and toning down grownup films to get the PG-13 rating, which is considered to have the widest box office appeal.

(on camera): The clear winner at the box office so far this year is Universal, with "Bruce Almighty," "2 Fast 2 Furious," and "The Hulk," is the only studio with three films in the top 10. It's also the only major studio that's officially for sale.

Casey Wian, CNN, Los Angeles.


HOPKINS: Our next guest, Mark Ramsey, calls this the summer of Roman numerals. Mark is the creator of, and he joins us now From San Diego.

Mark, why is it that people aren't going to movies this year?

Are the prices too expensive or are the movies not good enough?

MARK RAMSEY, CREATOR, MOVIEJUICE.COM: You know, every year people talk about that. But I think people are going, it's just that there are so many Roman numerals, you know, you have to be a certain kind of person to appreciate the Roman numerals, you have to be kind of an idiot kind of person like me, and we love them.

HOPKINS: So what you're saying is there are so many sequels?

That's what you're referring to when you say Roman numerals, right?

RAMSEY: Right. We love sequels. People love sequels. They're comfortable. They're familiar. It's the same movie we've seen before all over again. What's not to like?

It reminds me of a story, I was in a video store a while back, and a guy was renting "Jaws." And he got up to the counter, and the guy behind the counter said, you know this is the widescreen "Jaws." And he said, no, no, I want regular "Jaws." And I thought, regular "Jaws"? What's regular "Jaws"? I mean, you don't want the one that was in the movies, you want regular "Jaws." So as long as there will be people like me who go for regular "Jaws," there will be a lot of Roman numerals.

HOPKINS: And is that particularly true in the summertime?

We've seen this before, where the summertime is the time for sequels.

RAMSEY: Yes. It's exclusively true in the summertime. If you check around, you'll see everything has a colon and a Roman numeral after it this summer.

HOPKINS: Let's talk about one of them, "Terminator 3."

What do you think of it?

RAMSEY: Yes, "Terminator 3," or as I like to call it TNA-3, now that Arnold has a female terminatrix he's up against. You know, this movie's kind of an epic out of time. Ever since the Matrix movies really raised the bar for what these movies should be. This feels like you should drop Arnold on a Sphinx next to Elizabeth Taylor and roll him across ancient Egypt.

HOPKINS: So you think this is going to be the last terminator?

RAMSEY: No. In fact, I already know there's going to be another. It's going to be called T who cares, I think. I'm sure there will be more.

HOPKINS: And also, you have a feeling that this is a big campaign blitz for Arnold becoming governor in California, yes?

RAMSEY: Yes. Absolutely. I mean, you've got to vote for the terminator, he's got a gun.

HOPKINS: And "The Hulk," what do you think of that one?

RAMSEY: Oh, you know, if I want to see a big oversized green nearly naked guy in purple shorts, I'll go to an Irish pub. I don't need to go to this movie. I mean, Ang Lee took this way too seriously. This is totally humorless, this movie. I just -- and plus, I don't know which looks more fake, Nick Nolte or the Hulk. I don't know.

HOPKINS: What do you like? Is it "Finding Nemo"? Is it the classics?

RAMSEY: You know, I'll tell you something, you're going to laugh at me because I'm in the minority here, but I really kind of like the "Charlie's Angels" sequel. I mean, it's mindless, humor-filled fun. It doesn't take itself seriously. It's totally not self-conscious. What's not to like?

HOPKINS: Mark Ramsey, Thanks for joining us. RAMSEY: Thank you.

HOPKINS: And when we come back, the preliminary results of tonight's poll.

We'll have the story of some remarkably resilient dogs who need good homes now. That story coming up.


HOPKINS: The labor market may not be bouncing back as quickly as millions of unemployed Americans might have hoped, with unemployment hitting a fresh nine-year high in June.

Joining me once again, Peter Viles, Kitty Pilgrim and Bill Tucker.

Let's talk first about unemployment. And Pete, you were covering the story today. I mean, what do you see is really going on here?

VILES: Well, clearly, we're in a very different kind of economic cycle. It was a very different recession, and it's been a very different recovery.

We've had 20 months now of economic growth and still no growth in the job market. In fact, we're losing jobs. There's some dynamic that's different about this economic cycle than previous ones. It would be very interesting to see how it plays out because this is not your father's recession. This is not '81-82, and it's not '75. We never got to 10 percent unemployment. I think a lot of Americans are feeling, this isn't quite a recession. But like the person we heard from in the story, if you've been out of work for almost two years, you're knocking on doors. So there's some disconnect here. The whole economy's not weak, but there are weak spots in it.

HOPKINS: And our Susan Lisovicz told us, you know, the market is betting that things are going to get better.

VILES: Thank god for the optimists on Wall Street, betting we'll have a second half recovery. Of course, a lot of economists are sort of 0 for 2 on this. They saw a second half recovery in '01, second half recovery in '02. Kind of like Charlie Brown. They're going to try to kick the football again this fall, but they're 0 for 2 on this.

HOPKINS: Bill, you were working on a story today about a lot of Americans being willing to work. What did you find out?

BILL TUCKER, CNNfn CORRESPONDENT: Well, it's interesting. There are some paradoxes in the numbers that Peter's talking about. And one of those paradoxes us that you have employers like we had last night on the show arguing that there should be guest worker programs because they don't have the people, they can't hire people to do their work, and then you have a rising unemployment rate. There is a paradox in those numbers somewhere, and it depends on who you talk with. But a lot of people would argue, Jan, the reason they're not take the jobs is they don't pay well enough and so you have people... HOPKINS: Or maybe they're not desperate enough?

TUCKER: They're not desperate enough maybe but they don't pay well enough, and some people would argue don't allow the guest workers in. Force those employers to raise their wages because you can't have a shortage of labor if what you're doing is you're taking the wage down instead of bringing the wage up.

HOPKINS: And Kitty, you were looking at the kind of other end of it, that the Americans that are working don't take vacations.

PILGRIM: It's a very -- goes back to what Pete was saying. This is not your father's recession. There's a certain paranoia for people who do have jobs in that they do not want to exercise all their rights or their full rights because there's always somebody else who's going to come in that extra day early or do a little bit more, and in this very competitive work environment it's very difficult to keep your edge.

So unfortunately, people are giving up their vacation time and they're working longer hours and not getting paid for it. They're really giving up some of the rights that they have as workers.

HOPKINS: And probably not moving from job to job. Therefore, there aren't more jobs that are opening up.

VILES: Although this is supposed to have been the generation that moves a lot from job to job, changes more often.

It's going to be very interesting to see how this plays out politically because I think a large portion of the electorate knows that this is not a terrible economy, not with such a strong housing market, such low interest rates. A decent stock market, up 20 percent for the year. It's not awful. But there is something wrong with. It's going to be interesting to see how this plays out politically. It was not an issue in the '02 elections.

HOPKINS: Yes, that's right. Even though the Democrats thought it would --

TUCKER: I mean, historically -- we've all covered business long enough to know 6.4 percent unemployment is not as bad as it can get.

VILES: Sure. Ronald Reagan, 1984, gets reelected morning (ph). In America, unemployment was over 7 percent when he was reelected.

HOPKINS: Thank you very much. Peter Viles, Bill Tucker, and Kitty Pilgrim.

Now the preliminary results of tonight's poll. The question: "How confident are you that your job is safe after today's unemployment numbers?" Ten percent said very, 8 percent said somewhat, and 31 percent said not at all, 51 percent said I don't have a job.

Finally tonight, 53 dogs rescued from horrible living conditions now have a new lease on life. And they're making the most of it.

Jeanne Moos has that story.


JEANNE MOOS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This is the story of 53 fox terriers, not to be confused with...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: 101 dalmatians.

MOOS: The terriers may look like well-groomed contestants at a dog show, but they're actually animals rescued from hellish conditions and soon to be put up for adoption.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is Harry. We named him after Harry Potter.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is Twisty. And when we put her down, you'll see why.

MOOS: The ASPCA rescued these wire-haired fox terriers back in March from a breeding house in the Bronx.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice-over): Their coats matted, some of the dogs covered with feces and soaked in urine. Even rescue workers taken aback by the disgusting stench and horrible conditions.


MOOS: Their caretaker was charged with cruelty to animals. Many of the dogs have defects because they were inbred within the same family, from Twisty to Chanel, so named because he was No. 5 -- Chanel No. 5, when the terriers arrived at the ASPCA.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He loves the wheelchair. They took him for a walk in Central Park, actually.

MOOS: This dog is named Helen, as in Helen Keller, because she's blind and deaf.

And Lady here had to have mastectomies because of tumors in her mammary glands.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She used to have nipples that ran straight down here.

MOOS: But don't get depressed. The dogs aren't.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is the only time Lady ever stops moving, is if you're petting her stomach. MOOS: Nelly here happened to be pregnant when the dogs were rescued. Two months later, out popped five pups. But before you get too smitten, the pups are already spoken for. As for the rest...

EMILY PALMER, ASPCA: We want them to have homes, not cages. We want them to have actual homes.

MOOS: Applications are available at the ASPCA Web site,

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She's in love with you already.

MOOS (on camera): Yes, she's in love with my leg.

(voice-over): They tug, they sniff, they make puddles.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Whoa. Fabio, don't do that.

MOOS: One volunteer was so touched by Twisty she got all choked up. But Twisty seems to be taking her twist of fate in stride.

Jeanne Moos, CNN, New York.


HOPKINS: They're cute.

That's our show tonight. Thanks for joining us. Tomorrow join us for a special holiday edition. We bring you our series of special reports on emerging diseases and border patrol. Health and Human Services Tommy Thompson and Undersecretary of Border and Transportation Security Asa Hutchinson will join us.

For all of us here, good night from New York.



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