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CNN Live Today

Toobin Analyzes Today's High-Profile Legal Cases

Aired July 15, 2003 - 11:20   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: A New York man who admits to holding women as sex slaves over a period of 15 years could spend the rest of his life in prison. Sixty-eight-year-old John Jamelski was scheduled for sentencing this morning in Syracuse. Jamelski pleaded guilty last month to abducting five women and girls. He admitted to holding them prisoner in an underground bunker in his backyard. the abductions date back to 1988. All of his captives eventually were released. It wasn't until this year he was caught after his most recent victim managed to call her sister.
Fifteen Illinois teenagers charged in a high school hazing run amuck are now getting to know the courthouse in Skokie quite well. They were scheduled to return there today for a status hearing on misdemeanor battery charges against them. The teenagers were mostly senior girls at the time. They are accused of beating junior girls and showering them with mud, feces and garbage. Several juniors were injured. The May 4 incident was caught on videotape.

Colorado officials could decide as soon as today whether they'll charge Los Angeles Lakers star Kobe Bryant with sexual assault. The state crime lab has turned over results of evidence analysis to prosecutors in Eagle County. A 19-year-old woman says Bryant assaulted her June 10 at an Eagle Colorado resort hotel where he was staying. Bryant says he is innocent.

Joining us now from New York to share his expertise on these -- assortment of legal cases, the full buffet, we have a CNN analyst Jeffrey Toobin. Jeffrey, we're throwing it all at you today.

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: That's it. No problem.

KAGAN: Let's start with Kobe and Eagle Colorado. Brian Cabell's reporting that probably no decision is going to happen today. What's the delay here, do you think?

TOOBIN: I obviously don't know the details. But there is a lot of -- there's a lot of work to be done in a case like this. You have to look at the hair and physical -- the fiber evidence. Is there any evidence of transfer. you know, proving -- first, first you have to prove that there was actual sexual contact between the two. Then you have to determine whether it was consensual if you find evidence.

You do the DNA test. You do hair and fiber. And then you go to the surrounding circumstances and see what -- whether you can prove consent or not. Those are complicated facts that could easily take -- we're only talking about a little more than a week. It could easily take more than that. KAGAN: But, Jeff, let me call on your old prosecutorial hat here. What if you have a man and a woman that had sex in a room and it's his word against hers?

TOOBIN: Those are very tough cases to make. And one of the interesting things there is you have to decide whether the two people whose words will matter most have jury appeal. Who will they believe?

One person's word against another, consent cases are very difficult to make beyond a reasonable doubt when the defendant has no prior record. That's often a determining factor in making a case that is solely based on one person's word against another.

KAGAN: Let's move on to the hazing high school schools in Skokie, Illinois. Prosecutors went back, looked at the videotape again and they're adding additional charges. They're adding some misdemeanor battery charges for some of the girls. Is that unusual to go back and do that?

TOOBIN: Not really. Prosecutors often add charges as an investigation proceeds. But, I mean, we look at this videotape. It looks, of course, awful to all of this. But if this actually becomes a criminal case in a criminal trial, they are not just going to be able to show the videotape and say, oh, isn't this terrible? They're going to have to identify each person and identify what each did that is illegal.

One of the defenses here that that the parents have said is, look, this was just the equivalent a water balloon fight. You can see people sprinkling some sort of liquid on people. That may not be a crime.

KAGAN: Except that some of the girls were hurt, physically hurt.

TOOBIN: Exactly. But if that -- you are going to have to prove what each individual defendant did to hurt another person. Nobody gets hurt from just pouring water on someone.

So that's why this is not going to be as simple as it seems to prosecute. And that's why it's taking a while. And that's why some of these girls have not taken the deal that the prosecution offered, which was actually fairly straightforward. You don't get to go to graduation, but you don't wind up with a permanent criminal record. Not everybody's taking it. And those are the people who more charges have been entered against.

KAGAN: I get it. So they're kind of putting the pressure on there.

TOOBIN: Exactly.

KAGAN: And finally this charmer, James (sic) Jamelski, who was holding these women -- we're getting word that he was just sentenced. He's going to get 18 years to life. His defense attorney was actually arguing for leniency for Jamelske. How do you make that kind of plea for a creep like this? TOOBIN: Talk about an unappealing defendant. I think, again, always in horrible cases where a sex crime and there are victims who survive, there is a part of the prosecutor that always thinks how much do I really want to subject to these women to putting them on the stand? How much do I want to make them relive this? Do I accept somewhat of a lesser sentence to avoid the ordeal for the defendants?

Here this guy is very old. It's very unlikely that he will ever get out even with an 18-year sentence. So, look, defense lawyers do what they have to do. But I don't think there's much chance that guy's going to see the light of day (UNINTELLIGIBLE) even with a lesser.

KAGAN: What does 18 years end up being?

TOOBIN: Well that's the -- in New York state, that's what's called the bottom number. Eighteen years means 18 years.

KAGAN: Oh it does?

TOOBIN: It's 18 to, I think, 21. He's going to do 18 years before he gets out. And from the looks of him he's may not make it.

KAGAN: Not going anywhere. He'll have plenty of time to sit in a cell and think go keeping other people captive.

Jeffrey Toobin, thanks for your expertise. Appreciate it.

TOOBIN: See you, D.K.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com






Aired July 15, 2003 - 11:20   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: A New York man who admits to holding women as sex slaves over a period of 15 years could spend the rest of his life in prison. Sixty-eight-year-old John Jamelski was scheduled for sentencing this morning in Syracuse. Jamelski pleaded guilty last month to abducting five women and girls. He admitted to holding them prisoner in an underground bunker in his backyard. the abductions date back to 1988. All of his captives eventually were released. It wasn't until this year he was caught after his most recent victim managed to call her sister.
Fifteen Illinois teenagers charged in a high school hazing run amuck are now getting to know the courthouse in Skokie quite well. They were scheduled to return there today for a status hearing on misdemeanor battery charges against them. The teenagers were mostly senior girls at the time. They are accused of beating junior girls and showering them with mud, feces and garbage. Several juniors were injured. The May 4 incident was caught on videotape.

Colorado officials could decide as soon as today whether they'll charge Los Angeles Lakers star Kobe Bryant with sexual assault. The state crime lab has turned over results of evidence analysis to prosecutors in Eagle County. A 19-year-old woman says Bryant assaulted her June 10 at an Eagle Colorado resort hotel where he was staying. Bryant says he is innocent.

Joining us now from New York to share his expertise on these -- assortment of legal cases, the full buffet, we have a CNN analyst Jeffrey Toobin. Jeffrey, we're throwing it all at you today.

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: That's it. No problem.

KAGAN: Let's start with Kobe and Eagle Colorado. Brian Cabell's reporting that probably no decision is going to happen today. What's the delay here, do you think?

TOOBIN: I obviously don't know the details. But there is a lot of -- there's a lot of work to be done in a case like this. You have to look at the hair and physical -- the fiber evidence. Is there any evidence of transfer. you know, proving -- first, first you have to prove that there was actual sexual contact between the two. Then you have to determine whether it was consensual if you find evidence.

You do the DNA test. You do hair and fiber. And then you go to the surrounding circumstances and see what -- whether you can prove consent or not. Those are complicated facts that could easily take -- we're only talking about a little more than a week. It could easily take more than that. KAGAN: But, Jeff, let me call on your old prosecutorial hat here. What if you have a man and a woman that had sex in a room and it's his word against hers?

TOOBIN: Those are very tough cases to make. And one of the interesting things there is you have to decide whether the two people whose words will matter most have jury appeal. Who will they believe?

One person's word against another, consent cases are very difficult to make beyond a reasonable doubt when the defendant has no prior record. That's often a determining factor in making a case that is solely based on one person's word against another.

KAGAN: Let's move on to the hazing high school schools in Skokie, Illinois. Prosecutors went back, looked at the videotape again and they're adding additional charges. They're adding some misdemeanor battery charges for some of the girls. Is that unusual to go back and do that?

TOOBIN: Not really. Prosecutors often add charges as an investigation proceeds. But, I mean, we look at this videotape. It looks, of course, awful to all of this. But if this actually becomes a criminal case in a criminal trial, they are not just going to be able to show the videotape and say, oh, isn't this terrible? They're going to have to identify each person and identify what each did that is illegal.

One of the defenses here that that the parents have said is, look, this was just the equivalent a water balloon fight. You can see people sprinkling some sort of liquid on people. That may not be a crime.

KAGAN: Except that some of the girls were hurt, physically hurt.

TOOBIN: Exactly. But if that -- you are going to have to prove what each individual defendant did to hurt another person. Nobody gets hurt from just pouring water on someone.

So that's why this is not going to be as simple as it seems to prosecute. And that's why it's taking a while. And that's why some of these girls have not taken the deal that the prosecution offered, which was actually fairly straightforward. You don't get to go to graduation, but you don't wind up with a permanent criminal record. Not everybody's taking it. And those are the people who more charges have been entered against.

KAGAN: I get it. So they're kind of putting the pressure on there.

TOOBIN: Exactly.

KAGAN: And finally this charmer, James (sic) Jamelski, who was holding these women -- we're getting word that he was just sentenced. He's going to get 18 years to life. His defense attorney was actually arguing for leniency for Jamelske. How do you make that kind of plea for a creep like this? TOOBIN: Talk about an unappealing defendant. I think, again, always in horrible cases where a sex crime and there are victims who survive, there is a part of the prosecutor that always thinks how much do I really want to subject to these women to putting them on the stand? How much do I want to make them relive this? Do I accept somewhat of a lesser sentence to avoid the ordeal for the defendants?

Here this guy is very old. It's very unlikely that he will ever get out even with an 18-year sentence. So, look, defense lawyers do what they have to do. But I don't think there's much chance that guy's going to see the light of day (UNINTELLIGIBLE) even with a lesser.

KAGAN: What does 18 years end up being?

TOOBIN: Well that's the -- in New York state, that's what's called the bottom number. Eighteen years means 18 years.

KAGAN: Oh it does?

TOOBIN: It's 18 to, I think, 21. He's going to do 18 years before he gets out. And from the looks of him he's may not make it.

KAGAN: Not going anywhere. He'll have plenty of time to sit in a cell and think go keeping other people captive.

Jeffrey Toobin, thanks for your expertise. Appreciate it.

TOOBIN: See you, D.K.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com