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CNN Wolf Blitzer Reports
Councilman James Davis shot dead at City Hall
Aired July 23, 2003 - 17:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Thanks very much.
Gunfire inside New York City Hall, two people are dead including a city councilman. Mayor Bloomberg calls it an attack on democracy. He's scheduled to speak out momentarily. We'll bring you his comments live.
WOLF BLITZER REPORTS starts right now.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER (voice-over): New details of the ferocious assault on Saddam Hussein's sons.
SANCHEZ: We began to employ Humvee-mounted Tow missiles. We fired ten Tow missiles into the house.
BLITZER: And new pictures, we'll take you inside the house where Uday and Qusay Hussein were killed.
Is it a turning point?
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: All Iraqis can know that the former regime is gone and will not be coming back.
BLITZER: But how can they know for sure? Should the U.S. show the grisly evidence?
Another success for American troops today. Iraqi insurgents hit back hard.
And, al Qaeda in Iran, big fish on the hook, Tehran makes a startling announcement.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: CNN live this hour, WOLF BLITZER REPORTS, live from the nation's capital with correspondents from around the world. WOLF BLITZER REPORTS starts now.
BLITZER: You're looking at a live picture at City Hall. The New York Mayor Bloomberg, he's about to come to those microphones and speak about a horrible incident that's broken in the middle of New York only within the past hour and a half or so. At this hour in New York, a gunman is dead after he shot and killed a city councilman inside City Hall this afternoon. Police sources tell CNN the gunman was killed by a police bodyguard.
The attack happened during a meeting inside City Council chambers. Perhaps one pressing question right now, how did the gunman get into the building where metal detectors were installed after the 9/11 terror attacks?
CNN's Michael Okwu is live on the scene. He's joining us from City Hall right now. Michael, set the scene for us. Tell us what's going on.
MICHAEL OKWU, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, it is orchestrated mayhem here. There are literally dozens of media on the scene, police helicopters as well as media helicopters flying above and, literally, there are hundreds of law enforcement officials here around City Hall. Part of downtown Manhattan had been cordoned off for at least a couple hours.
What we understand from police sources at this point is that the gunman in the shooting earlier today was a man by the name of Othniel Askew who apparently was a political rival of City Council member James Davis who was also shot and killed today during that shooting.
What we are told from sources is that this gunman came in accompanied by Mr. Davis and, of course, was able to get around some of the very key security checkpoints at this location. As you can imagine, Wolf, that was one of the very big questions earlier today. How does a gunman after 9/11 get into City Council while there is a City Council in session? How does he get in and fire off at least a couple of rounds?
Earlier today, Mayor Michael Bloomberg said before identifying this particular gunman that he would not rest until he was found. Here's the mayor earlier today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MAYOR MICHAEL BLOOMBERG, NEW YORK: What we know was that after two o'clock, somebody in the balcony of the City Council chamber during a City Council meeting apparently pulled a gun and shot two individuals. We don't know the condition of either individual but they were clearly seriously hurt and removed to the hospital.
This is a terrible attack, not just on two people and they are in our prayers but this is an attack on democracy. We will not stop until we find who did this. It is not terrorism. It appears to be a random act but we cannot allow this to go on ever. This is an attack on all Americans.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
OKWU: According to several City Council members we spoke to today, they heard a loud explosion or at least what seemed like an explosion and then, at least according to these witnesses, some 15 to 20 rounds go off before they were all told to hit the deck.
They hit the deck and, in fact, some plainclothes police officers entered into the scene and fired off a few rounds. Apparently, the bodyguard of one City Council member was the person who, of course, had the fatal blow to this particular gunman.
We are told that it was complete chaos, Wolf that these plainclothes police officers were firing off rounds and that people inside the building had absolutely no idea about who was a good guy and who was a bad guy -- Wolf.
BLITZER: That confusion was clearly evident, Michael, at that news conference when Mayor Bloomberg came out and said the gunman was on the loose and there was a massive manhunt underway at City Hall. How did he get that kind of bad information?
OKWU: Well, that's interesting, Wolf. We'll obviously have to do a postmortem on this but the fact is that they wanted to be very careful. They had not positively identified the two victims, at least that's what they told the media when they staged their press conference.
And so, they really wanted to be cautious about it. They wanted to make sure that at least, you know, that the area was cordoned off and that it was secure before moving any further -- Wolf.
BLITZER: What about this councilman who's now dead, James Davis? I understand there was some sort of relationship between him and the shooter?
OKWU: Again, what we are hearing from sources is that he was a political rival and we hear some very positive things about Mr. Miller. What we understand -- Mr. Davis, I'm sorry. What we understand is that he was a big proponent of gun control that he wanted to pass legislation that would take guns, that toys that look like real guns off the market.
He was spoken about in very loving terms, a very dedicated man, somebody who apparently was a former minister and a former police officer and this is really something that a lot of the council members here are taking quite hard as you can imagine, Wolf, that and the fact that a shooting could actually occur here in City Hall, which is a stunning development -- Wolf.
OKWU: And that stunning development will be thoroughly investigated. But, Michael, can we confirm definitively now the incident? The whole issue is over with. The alleged shooter is dead. Obviously, the councilman is dead. There is not search for other culprits?
OKWU: Well, this situation is still very fluid, Wolf. Until we get the final word from city officials, we presume that to be Mayor Michael Bloomberg and Ray Kelly, the New York City Police Commissioner. We have to assume that the police are still conducting their investigation. We know that they were looking in the building. There is absolutely no indication at this point that there was more than one gunman but we're hoping to hear a little bit more from those officials at a press conference scheduled for this afternoon -- Wolf.
BLITZER: All right, we're going to be standing by for that news conference. Michael Okwu, please stand by with us as well because we're going to be getting back to you as well.
I want to remind our viewers, we're standing by to hear from Mayor Michael Bloomberg. He's going to be walking into this room in New York City momentarily to answer a lot of questions about this shooting incident at City Hall just a few hours ago.
Numerous people were at City Hall. They either saw the shooting or certainly heard the gunshots. Hear what some of them had to say right now.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just heard bang, bang, bang, bang, bang and I thought it was firecrackers the first three or four until people started, you know, screaming. That's when a bunch of us just went right on the floor and then we heard a lot more shots going off. I don't know, I'm guessing 20 rounds. It's hard when you have your head on the floor.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Twenty rounds?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just about but that was I'm sure our guys too and gals firing back.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, no. I did hear that James Davis -- I heard this. He ran upstairs to try to apprehend this guy. This is what I heard. I don't know for sure.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: James Davis ran outside?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was -- he's an ex-cop.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: Joining us now on the phone for more on the shooting is Sal Lifrieri. He's the former director of security and intelligence operations for the Office of Emergency Management in New York. Sal, thanks very much for joining us. What, if anything, by the way do you know about this incident from your own investigation?
SAL LIFRIERI, FMR. NYC DIR., SECURITY & INTELL. (via telephone): Basically everything that I've been hearing today is the same that's been reported.
BLITZER: And the bottom line is though how does someone walk into City Hall after 9/11 with a loaded handgun? LIFRIERI: Oh, that' one of the big questions that everybody is asking. Years ago during the Giuliani administration when I was on protection detail at City Hall, we had a very firm policy about law enforcement bringing weapons into the building. If you weren't NYPD or weren't on a protective assignment we would ask law enforcement to surrender their weapon and put it into a safe.
How does a person get the weapon into City Hall is one of those questions that I'm sure everybody is asking. Probably what we're going to see, and this is pure speculation at this point, is that it comes down to just familiarity.
BLITZER: When you say familiarity, you mean someone who normally walks in with a gun may have managed to get that gun in there?
LIFRIERI: Well, you can either have familiarity with the person, the councilman walking in. There's been some reports from the news media that the gunman might have walked in with the councilman.
A lot of times what happens is when you get to these checkpoints the situation occurs is that either the person who is allowed in, be it the councilman or the VIP, will turn to the security and say he's OK, he's with me and allows them to walk through the checkpoint unchallenged.
That could be something that may have occurred in this case, although I have no information, you know, either way regarding that but the familiarity of the people walking through saying that person is OK, let him come, that happens a lot of times with staffers.
A staffer coming through by themself would be willing to go through the checkpoint but if they're coming in with the elected official or with the VIP, a lot of times won't stand for the search or for the screening.
BLITZER: All right, Sal, stand by for a second.
We're just getting some comments in now to CNN. The brother of the killed councilman, James Davis, his brother Jeffrey Davis has just spoken out. I want you and our viewers to listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEFFREY DAVIS, COUNCILMAN'S BROTHER: When they tried to stop him as a police officer, he fought and got his job back. When they tried to stop him from having stop the violence functions, he continued having it even if it was in front of his door. The system killed my brother but it's all right. I'm confused right now. How is it that City Hall -- how can this happen in City Hall?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jeffrey, turn to us here and tell us.
DAVIS: That's what I'm concerned about. How could this have happened at City Hall? I'm not afraid. How could this have happened at City Hall? Somebody tell me that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jeffrey, who did it?
DAVIS: Was it a coincidence?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jeffrey, who did it?
DAVIS: I don't know who did it. The system did it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: Sal, obviously a very distraught, very angry brother of James Davis. That was Jeffrey Davis, his brother, speaking out and he asked fair questions. How could this happen at City Hall? Did you personally know, by the way, Councilman Davis?
LIFRIERI: No, I never got to personally know him.
BLITZER: What would you say though to his brother who is obviously very angry?
LIFRIERI: Well, I think one of the good things about it now is that you have a commissioner in place, Commissioner Kelly who has obviously responded as the reports first came in at the initial shooting. The commissioner responded to the scene while the shooting had just occurred.
I think that you have between the mayor and between the police commissioner you have two people that would truly conduct an honest and fair assessment and an honest and fair investigation to determine exactly how this happened, and I'm sure with the commissioner's background and his experience that you're going to see changes taking place in the security procedures at City Hall.
BLITZER: Well, what you were suggesting, Sal, was that some people don't necessarily have to go through metal detectors or be physically examined walking into City Hall while others do. Is there a two-tier system there?
LIFRIERI: I don't know if I'd call it a two-tier system but it just happens and I think it doesn't happen specifically at City Hall. I think you see this anywhere that there are checkpoints that are established.
What happens inevitably is that you have people who have been pre-cleared. The policy at City Hall currently was that you have a councilman, properly identified who is known to the staff would not have to go through security.
You know would staff members also have to go through that if they were with them, possibly, possibly not. But if those situations do occur, and while I'm not saying specific to this event, what I am saying is that when you do have these checkpoints established those situations occur and that's how this could have occurred and, again, that's just pure speculation.
BLITZER: So, your recommendation at this point in terms of some sort of investigation, Ray Kelly the New York City Police Commissioner, obviously well qualified, a lot of experience, but is the community going to want more given the nature of the victim in this particular case, a very popular New York City Councilman?
LIFRIERI: Well, I'm not exactly sure how much more you can have other than the truth and what the story, you know (AUDIO GAP). Is it possible that, you know, changes could be instituted, possibly secondary searches done inside the building? That's possible. (AUDIO GAP) type of recommendations and changes that, you know, I'm sure is going to be looked at and, you know, and made.
But as far as will the investigation be different because he was a councilman, historically the police department, while they've had -- while they've gotten, you know, some bad press over the years about different types of investigations, I really think in this particular case you're going to see the facts come out as they are.
BLITZER: Sal Lifrieri, former director of security and intelligence operations in New York City, for the Office of Emergency Management thanks for joining us on this day.
CNN's Michael Okwu is once again with us. Michael, before I question you, I want to remind our viewers we're standing by to hear from the New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg. He's about to emerge, we're told, to come into this room packed with media. They want answered, a lot of unanswered questions still out there.
Michael, when we spoke just a few minutes ago one of those questions was the confusion that surrounded the incident as it was unfolding. Any new answers, any additional information you're coming up with?
OKWU: Nothing really new right now, Wolf, at this moment. We're all awaiting news from New York city officials, including Mike Bloomberg and, of course, Ray Kelly, the New York City Police Commissioner.
But, we can tell you after speaking to council members here, Wolf that the immediate thought on the minds of some of the council members at least was that this could have been a terrorist act.
They are very unfamiliar, of course, with anything like this but, of course, after the details started filtering through this afternoon that was put to rest and Mayor Michael Bloomberg very early on, Wolf, making a point that he saw this as an isolated incident, that he said that there's absolutely no reason why New Yorkers should not go on conducting their lives as usual.
And, in fact, if the information we're getting is accurate, and there's no reason to question it, it appears that Mr. Bloomberg's words were right on target. This was an isolated incident having to do perhaps with two political rivals. As bizarre as it is, Wolf, something that council members here were completely stunned to hear when it happened.
Again, some council members heard about 15 to 20 rounds go off. It's unclear whether the gunman was able to squeeze off that many rounds or whether that was bullets or ricocheting off the walls in the lower chamber there inside City Hall or whether, in fact, some of that gunfire was gunfire initiated by some of the guards and police officers who made it on the scene immediately after the shootout -- Wolf.
BLITZER: You mentioned the name of the suspected shooter who we believe is now dead himself shot by a bodyguard to one of the other council members. Remind or tell our viewers once again who is this suspected shooter and what is his background if you know anything about this guy?
OKWU: We know very little about this person at this point but, what we are getting from sources is that his name was Othniel Askew, again a political rival of Mr. Miller's -- Mr. Davis' and, what we understand is that he may have been able to get past the metal detectors.
One of the very, very big questions here today is how he got in there. The big answer that we're getting at this point is that he may have actually accompanied the man that he ended up shooting and killing today and that's how he was able to make it in there.
We are told that some of the council members, many of them in fact, do not have to go through the same security process as other people would that they have specific identification that allows them to get through the metal detectors which, by the way, are located at both ends of City Hall and that you can take in some guests with you to also get through that clearance.
So, apparently that is what may have happened. Until we get the confirmation we're just speculating. We expect that Mayor Michael Bloomberg will probably get to that issue very close to the top of this press conference -- Wolf.
BLITZER: And when you say, Michael, they were political rivals were there specific issues in which they were rivals?
OKWU: Well, it's unclear at this point, at least to me, whether or not they had opposing views or whether it was simply an issue of one council member being very popular and the other one sort of running behind him in the race as it were.
All we know at this point is that they were political rivals, not sure whether there is any pressing legislation that Mr. Askew took great odds with Mr. Davis but we do know that Mr. Davis was a very, very popular City Council member.
This is a former minister, I might have mentioned to you earlier, Wolf, and a former police officer. We are told that at least from one council member that he sometimes came into the City Council with his gun.
Now, why is that? Is that old habit? Is that because he was a police officer? It was a licensed gun, he had the right to do so, or was it still sort of the law enforcement mentality taking hold? In either case, today a beloved City Council member is dead at the hands of a rival -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Michael, please stand by because we have a lot more to talk about, a lot more reporting going on.
(INTERRUPTED BY LIVE EVENT)
BLITZER: A very sad day indeed, Mayor Michale Bloomberg, the New York City Mayor emerging, providing details that he and his staff have learned about the shooting about city hall only within the past few hours. The New York City council member James Davis of Brooklyn is dead. The shooter, in this particular case, Othniel Askew, dead as well. The investigation now beginning.
We're going to continue to follow this story. We're also going to speak live with a person who was inside the city hall chambers, the council chambers, when this occurred.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Live coverage of a shooting incident at the New York City council chambers, earlier today. James Davis, the city council member of Brooklyn shot dead. The shooter in this case, Othniel Askew, according to police shot by a local New York City police officer as soon as he opened up fire against James Davis. Othniel Askew described as a rival, a political rival of James Davis.
Betsy Gotbaum, is joining us now. She's on the phone. She was inside the council chambers when all of this unfolded. She's the New York City Public Advocate. Betsy, if you could tell us what you saw and what you personally eyewitnessed, that would be interesting.
BETSY GOTBAUM, NYC PUBLIC ADVOCATE: Well, you know, it's very sad for all of us because a colleague has died tragically in the council chambers and I preside over the city council. So I sit up on a chair that's elevated. When I heard the first pop, which I thought actually at the beginning was a cap gun, I immediately just went underneath my desk, which is a very large desk that is completely surrounded by wood. And I stayed down there because that's just the thing, you know, to do. And so I actually didn't witness anything.
I heard all the speculation afterwards. People were very, very terrified. Very scared. All the children got out, which was terrific. There were children there for some kind of an occasion. And it's just one of those terrible tragedies that you just can't believe it's happening. And I think all of us have to pray for the family and just really take some, like I said, new precautions taken and everyone agrees they should be taken to not allow this happen, again.
BLITZER: When you walked in, at least until today, when you used to walk into city hall, Besty, did you go through magnetometers, metal detectors?
GOTBAUM: No, I did not. And I agree with the mayor and speaker that we should all have to go. Every single person should have to go through the metal detector. It's a little bit of an inconvenience, but you know what it's something we can easily do and look what happened as a result of this.
BLITZER: All right, Betsy Gotbaum, thanks very much for joining us. Our hearts go out, of course, our hearts go out to all of the people of New York. The loss of Councilman James Davis in the shooting at city hall earlier today. We'll continue to follow this story, get the latest information as soon as it becomes available.
But there's other important news we're monitoring as well, including the situation in Iraq following the deaths yesterday of Saddam Hussein's two sons. Iraqis still live in fear of the ousted regime, by all accounts.
What does the United States need to do to cut through the paranoticia and prove to them that Saddam Hussein's two sons are no longer a threat?
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KEN POLLACK, BROOKINGS INSTITUTION: It's going to be hard to convince the Iraqi people if they don't show the photos if they don't broadcast them in some way, shape or form.
BLITZER (voice-over): The debate played out in public for most of the day. U.S. Officials revealing some of their thought processes on whether to publicly release pictures of the bodies of Uday and Qusay Hussein.
PAUL WOLFOWITZ, DEPUTY DEFENSE SECRETARY: If we have to do some things that people say, you know, you know, you're just scraping over the past, you're giving us all the shocking stuff, why should our children have to see it on television. Let me tell you, the main consideration on the other side is saving the lives of American men and women who are on the line.
BLITZER: But is it acceptable legally, diplomatically, morally, to release those pictures to a worldwide audience?
Had they been captured, the Geneva Convention does has parameters for releasing images of prisoners of war. Article 13, "Prisoners of war must at all times be protected, particularly against acts of violence or intimidation and against insults and public curiosity."
March 23 of this year, of this year, American Soldiers help prisoner by Iraqis after the ambush of the U.S. Army's 507th Maintenance Unit. These images shown on Arab language networks then on American TV. Human rights groups and U.S. officials outraged.
DONALD RUMSFELD, DEFENSE SECRETARY: It is against the Geneva Convention to show photographs of prisoners of war in a manner that's humiliating for them.
BLITZER: But in this case, Uday and Qusay Hussein were not prisoners of war. They were on the U.S. list of most wanted former regime members. There is no stipulation in the Geneva Convention against releasing pictures of dead bodies. And the human rights groups we spoke to today, Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International, say they know of no other prohibition against public release of those images. Video of the bodies of American Soldiers killed in that March 23 ambush were shown on Arab TV. One still picture of those troops, no faces showing, aired on CNN. Some U.S. officials were upset, but it wasn't illegal. Some observers say the whole point of releasing the Uday and Qusay pictures might not even have its desired effect.
GEN. DON SHEPPERD, U.S. AIR FORCE (RET.): Even if you show pictures, people are going to say if they want to believe that they are still alive or there is still hope, they can say, you faked the pictures. So just because you show pictures of dead people doesn't mean the issue is dead.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: Should the United States produce the images and show the actual photos?
Joining me is Stephen Hayes of the "Weekly Standard," he is just back from Iraq.
And in West Babylon, New York, Bianca Jagger. Thanks to both of you.
Steve, I know you feel strongly the Bush administration should release these photos. Tell our viewers why.
STEPHEN HAYES, "THE WEEKLY STANDARD": Wolf, I spent the last five days in Iraq with Deputy Secretary Paul Wolfowitz. We heard again and again these sort of crazy conspiracy theories circulating in and around Iraq about U.S. motives, U.S. actions coming plans that the reconstruction is taking. And these complaints and these conspiracy theories came not from, you know, average Iraqis on the street. Although I told they are circulated there. They came from city council members in cities like Najaf saying, for instance, are you holding Saddam Hussein as a trump card to use against us? Are you holding him over our head? Those are the conspiracies that we need to knock down. And already we've seen, I think, in the short time after the deaths of Uday and Qusay, similar conspiracy theories once again circulating in Iraq.
BLITZER: And the photos presumably would end that.
Bianca, what's wrong, if anything, with that line of thinking?
BIANCA JAGGER, HUMAN RIGHTS ACTIVIST: Well, what I am concerned more even than the releasing of the photographs is the idea that the United States is engaged in assassination. And I am concerned about the backfire that that can have. As you know, President Ford had imposed that the United States should not use assassination against other people, and so is that...
BLITZER: When you call this Bianca -- let me interrupt for a second. When you call this assassination, they were warned. They were told to surrender and give up, but they resisted and they shot out with their own small arms fire. What is the U.S. Military supposed to do?
JAGGER: Well, I would like to say is that we have to think that at all times the military has to act in accordance to international humanitarian law and human right law. So is it -- would it make us more vulnerable to go and assassinate them or would it have been better to try to capture them, bring them to justice and then we will be more secure that way than if we killed them and then they feel that they have the right to do exactly the same towards us and towards our military in Iraq.
BLITZER: You know, Steve, there's a lot of others, not just Bianca Jagger who believe the U.S., the coalition, the Iraqi people would have been better off if the military had captured them alive and at least got some information out of them, put them on a public war crimes trial inside Iraq. That's the argument you're hearing.
HAYES: This may surprise Ms. Jagger. I agree with her. I share those concerns. As you pointed out correctly, though, we did first try to enter the building. That wasn't possible. They took fire repeatedly in their attempts to capture the Hussein brothers first. So they decided to bring out the heavy artillery and kill them. I think they were basically left with no choice.
BLITZER: What about the getting back it the initial question, releasing these photos.
Would it cause any damage, do you believe, if the world saw the bodies, the faces of these two dead sons?
JAGGER: I think it might incite people to want revenge. And to want to do the same towards the military and towards people in this country, and that's my concern. Are we going to release photographs of people who are completely deformed and then, even though it might not be covered by the Geneva Convention, it is covered by our moral obligation of not releasing photographs that are offensive to other people.
BLITZER: You know, that's a point that's well taken, Steve. I have to wrap it up here. We only have a few seconds left. But it does go against the whole nature of the U.S. military to release pictures of the enemy dead.
HAYES: You know, I agree. And one way around that would be to give the photographs to the new governing council in Iraq and let them do with them as they decide.
BLITZER: All right, Steve Hayes, unfortunately, we have to leave it right there. Bianca Jagger, thanks to both of you for joining us.
Here's your turn to weigh in on this story. Our Web question of today is this, should the United States release pictures of the bodies of Saddam Hussein's sons? We'll have the results later this hour. You can vote at CNN.com/wolf.
While you are there, I'd love to hear from you. Send me your comments. I'll try to read some of them on the air at the end of this program. That's also where you can read my daily online column, CNN.com/wolf.
U.S. leaders suggest the killing of Saddam Hussein's sons is a turning point for Iraq. Could it also mark a turning point for the entire Middle East? Joining us now here in Washington, the foreign minister of Israel, Silvan Shalom. Mr. Minister, welcome to Washington. Thanks so much for joining us. What, if anything, will the death of Uday and Qusay Hussein mean for the Israeli-Palestinian peace process?
SILVAN SHALOM, ISRAELI FOREIGN MINISTER: I think the last news from Iraq are very encouraging, first for the Iraqi people that were afraid from these brutal members of this regime, and we all hope that we will get Saddam Hussein as well.
I think it's very important to the whole region because it will motivate those moderate leaders to move toward peace with the state of Israel, while until now they were afraid from Saddam Hussein and his sons. They all have been aware to the situation that took place in 1991 while they occupied Kuwait and they were afraid the same he will do to them. Now I think this is the time for them, for the Iraqi leaders, for the moderate leaders in the region to move forward and to have peace with the State of Israel.
BLITZER: Well there is some movement right now. You're here in Washington. You just met with the secretary of state. The Palestinian prime minister Mahmoud Abbas is coming to Washington this week as well. Next week your prime minister Ariel Sharon will be here. Is there some considerable movement? Is there hope that this Israeli-Palestinian peace process will result in an independent Palestinian state living alongside Israel?
SHALOM: We are now facing a new opportunity that we are determined to seize and both parties feel the same. There is a glimmer of hope. We can see that the new leadership of the Palestinians speak differently. They speak more positively, and we hope that they will take actions as well. We think both parties should implement their commitment according to the road map.
BLITZER: Do you trust Mahmoud Abbas, the Palestinian prime minister?
SHALOM; I can tell you that I've met him and I was very encouraged by this meeting, but announcements and declarations are very important, but they are not enough. What is more important is that they will take serious actions against those...
BLITZER: Well on that point, are they taking, Mohammed Dahlan, the security chief under Mahmoud Abbas, are they taking steps to try to deal with Hamas, Islamic Jihad, these other groups?
SHALOM: Unfortunately the answer is not. They were talking about it, but they were always telling us, don't teach us how to deal with them. Since, we have signed this security agreement and they achieve the cease-fire with those extremists. They didn't do anything to implement their infrastructure. We could have seen that those extremists are using this time to dig more tunnels and to smuggle more weapons and to make more rockets, the Qasam, to see if they can have longer range.
I think it's very important for them to take this serious decision and to dismantle the infrastructure of terrorists. That's the -- should do it in order not to give those groups to blow up all the peace process when they will decide to do it.
BLITZER: Silvan Shalom, the foreign minister of Israel, thanks for joining us. Good luck to you.
In a moment, new information from Iran on capturing al Qaeda terrorists. Which of al Qaeda's top terrorists may have been captured already? That story, the results of our Web question. That's all coming up, stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Welcome back. For the first time, we're getting a look inside that Mosul mansion where Saddam Hussein's two sons were holed up. When Uday and Qusay Hussein refused to surrender, U.S. forces launched an all-out assault using rockets, machine guns, and missiles with deadly results.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: A glimpse inside a shattered window reveals a scene of utter devastation. Debris fills the room with random objects scattered throughout: an empty box here, a shoe there. Elsewhere, what looks like blood stains, testimony to the deadly hours long battle that unfolded here yesterday.
A soda can sits unopened on a table. Nearby, a desktop computer, evidence the massive stone villa belongs to someone either well off, well connected, or both. Neighbors say the men who lived here is a contractor and possibly a distant relative of Saddam Hussein. And some western media are reporting he is the one who tipped off U.S. forces.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: Let's move to Iran now, a key development in the war against terror today. Iran, the government in Iran, has officially confirmed it's holding senior al Qaeda members and will hunt others down. Our national correspondent Mike Boettcher, reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MIKE BOETTCHER, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This is the first time the Iranian government has admitted senior al Qaeda members are in that country and in custody. The remarks come two days after President Bush once again criticized Iran.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Today Syria and Iran continue to harbor and assist terrorists.
BOETTCHER: Intelligence officials say Iran has become both a haven and a transit point for al Qaeda members. The Iranians won't name names, but for months, U.S. intelligence has said that this man, Saif al-Adel was in Iran, a former member of Egypt's special forces. He's now generally considers to be al Qaeda's No. 3, and its military commander.
ROHAN GUNARATNA, AUTHOR, "INSIDE AL QAEDA": Saif al-Adel played a critical role in all the al Qaeda landmark operations, 9/11, the east Africa attacks, the Mombasa attacks.
BOETTCHER: Osama bin Laden's spokesman, Suleiman Abu Ghaith is also believed to be in Iranian custody according to the Kuwaiti interior minister, who just last week said his country turned down an offer from Iran to extradite Abu Ghaith, because Kuwait stripped Abut Ghaith of his citizenship days after he appeared on this videotape with bin Laden.
U.S. officials are closely studying the Iranian intelligence chief's comments. But so far, they say they've received no official word from Iran that that country is indeed holding al Qaeda suspects and is willing to turn them over. Mike Boettcher, CNN, Atlanta.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: Now here's how you are weighing on our Web question of the day. This is the question we've been asking you, should the U.S. release pictures of the bodies of Saddam's sons? Look at this, 70 percent of you say yes, 30 percent of you say no. Remember this is not, not a scientific poll.
You can continue to vote, by the way, go to our Web sit, cnn.com/wolf.
A reminder, we are on twice a day, noon Eastern, as well as, 5 pm Eastern. "LOU DOBBS TONIGHT" starts right now.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired July 23, 2003 - 17:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Thanks very much.
Gunfire inside New York City Hall, two people are dead including a city councilman. Mayor Bloomberg calls it an attack on democracy. He's scheduled to speak out momentarily. We'll bring you his comments live.
WOLF BLITZER REPORTS starts right now.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER (voice-over): New details of the ferocious assault on Saddam Hussein's sons.
SANCHEZ: We began to employ Humvee-mounted Tow missiles. We fired ten Tow missiles into the house.
BLITZER: And new pictures, we'll take you inside the house where Uday and Qusay Hussein were killed.
Is it a turning point?
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: All Iraqis can know that the former regime is gone and will not be coming back.
BLITZER: But how can they know for sure? Should the U.S. show the grisly evidence?
Another success for American troops today. Iraqi insurgents hit back hard.
And, al Qaeda in Iran, big fish on the hook, Tehran makes a startling announcement.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: CNN live this hour, WOLF BLITZER REPORTS, live from the nation's capital with correspondents from around the world. WOLF BLITZER REPORTS starts now.
BLITZER: You're looking at a live picture at City Hall. The New York Mayor Bloomberg, he's about to come to those microphones and speak about a horrible incident that's broken in the middle of New York only within the past hour and a half or so. At this hour in New York, a gunman is dead after he shot and killed a city councilman inside City Hall this afternoon. Police sources tell CNN the gunman was killed by a police bodyguard.
The attack happened during a meeting inside City Council chambers. Perhaps one pressing question right now, how did the gunman get into the building where metal detectors were installed after the 9/11 terror attacks?
CNN's Michael Okwu is live on the scene. He's joining us from City Hall right now. Michael, set the scene for us. Tell us what's going on.
MICHAEL OKWU, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, it is orchestrated mayhem here. There are literally dozens of media on the scene, police helicopters as well as media helicopters flying above and, literally, there are hundreds of law enforcement officials here around City Hall. Part of downtown Manhattan had been cordoned off for at least a couple hours.
What we understand from police sources at this point is that the gunman in the shooting earlier today was a man by the name of Othniel Askew who apparently was a political rival of City Council member James Davis who was also shot and killed today during that shooting.
What we are told from sources is that this gunman came in accompanied by Mr. Davis and, of course, was able to get around some of the very key security checkpoints at this location. As you can imagine, Wolf, that was one of the very big questions earlier today. How does a gunman after 9/11 get into City Council while there is a City Council in session? How does he get in and fire off at least a couple of rounds?
Earlier today, Mayor Michael Bloomberg said before identifying this particular gunman that he would not rest until he was found. Here's the mayor earlier today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MAYOR MICHAEL BLOOMBERG, NEW YORK: What we know was that after two o'clock, somebody in the balcony of the City Council chamber during a City Council meeting apparently pulled a gun and shot two individuals. We don't know the condition of either individual but they were clearly seriously hurt and removed to the hospital.
This is a terrible attack, not just on two people and they are in our prayers but this is an attack on democracy. We will not stop until we find who did this. It is not terrorism. It appears to be a random act but we cannot allow this to go on ever. This is an attack on all Americans.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
OKWU: According to several City Council members we spoke to today, they heard a loud explosion or at least what seemed like an explosion and then, at least according to these witnesses, some 15 to 20 rounds go off before they were all told to hit the deck.
They hit the deck and, in fact, some plainclothes police officers entered into the scene and fired off a few rounds. Apparently, the bodyguard of one City Council member was the person who, of course, had the fatal blow to this particular gunman.
We are told that it was complete chaos, Wolf that these plainclothes police officers were firing off rounds and that people inside the building had absolutely no idea about who was a good guy and who was a bad guy -- Wolf.
BLITZER: That confusion was clearly evident, Michael, at that news conference when Mayor Bloomberg came out and said the gunman was on the loose and there was a massive manhunt underway at City Hall. How did he get that kind of bad information?
OKWU: Well, that's interesting, Wolf. We'll obviously have to do a postmortem on this but the fact is that they wanted to be very careful. They had not positively identified the two victims, at least that's what they told the media when they staged their press conference.
And so, they really wanted to be cautious about it. They wanted to make sure that at least, you know, that the area was cordoned off and that it was secure before moving any further -- Wolf.
BLITZER: What about this councilman who's now dead, James Davis? I understand there was some sort of relationship between him and the shooter?
OKWU: Again, what we are hearing from sources is that he was a political rival and we hear some very positive things about Mr. Miller. What we understand -- Mr. Davis, I'm sorry. What we understand is that he was a big proponent of gun control that he wanted to pass legislation that would take guns, that toys that look like real guns off the market.
He was spoken about in very loving terms, a very dedicated man, somebody who apparently was a former minister and a former police officer and this is really something that a lot of the council members here are taking quite hard as you can imagine, Wolf, that and the fact that a shooting could actually occur here in City Hall, which is a stunning development -- Wolf.
OKWU: And that stunning development will be thoroughly investigated. But, Michael, can we confirm definitively now the incident? The whole issue is over with. The alleged shooter is dead. Obviously, the councilman is dead. There is not search for other culprits?
OKWU: Well, this situation is still very fluid, Wolf. Until we get the final word from city officials, we presume that to be Mayor Michael Bloomberg and Ray Kelly, the New York City Police Commissioner. We have to assume that the police are still conducting their investigation. We know that they were looking in the building. There is absolutely no indication at this point that there was more than one gunman but we're hoping to hear a little bit more from those officials at a press conference scheduled for this afternoon -- Wolf.
BLITZER: All right, we're going to be standing by for that news conference. Michael Okwu, please stand by with us as well because we're going to be getting back to you as well.
I want to remind our viewers, we're standing by to hear from Mayor Michael Bloomberg. He's going to be walking into this room in New York City momentarily to answer a lot of questions about this shooting incident at City Hall just a few hours ago.
Numerous people were at City Hall. They either saw the shooting or certainly heard the gunshots. Hear what some of them had to say right now.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just heard bang, bang, bang, bang, bang and I thought it was firecrackers the first three or four until people started, you know, screaming. That's when a bunch of us just went right on the floor and then we heard a lot more shots going off. I don't know, I'm guessing 20 rounds. It's hard when you have your head on the floor.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Twenty rounds?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just about but that was I'm sure our guys too and gals firing back.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, no. I did hear that James Davis -- I heard this. He ran upstairs to try to apprehend this guy. This is what I heard. I don't know for sure.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: James Davis ran outside?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was -- he's an ex-cop.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: Joining us now on the phone for more on the shooting is Sal Lifrieri. He's the former director of security and intelligence operations for the Office of Emergency Management in New York. Sal, thanks very much for joining us. What, if anything, by the way do you know about this incident from your own investigation?
SAL LIFRIERI, FMR. NYC DIR., SECURITY & INTELL. (via telephone): Basically everything that I've been hearing today is the same that's been reported.
BLITZER: And the bottom line is though how does someone walk into City Hall after 9/11 with a loaded handgun? LIFRIERI: Oh, that' one of the big questions that everybody is asking. Years ago during the Giuliani administration when I was on protection detail at City Hall, we had a very firm policy about law enforcement bringing weapons into the building. If you weren't NYPD or weren't on a protective assignment we would ask law enforcement to surrender their weapon and put it into a safe.
How does a person get the weapon into City Hall is one of those questions that I'm sure everybody is asking. Probably what we're going to see, and this is pure speculation at this point, is that it comes down to just familiarity.
BLITZER: When you say familiarity, you mean someone who normally walks in with a gun may have managed to get that gun in there?
LIFRIERI: Well, you can either have familiarity with the person, the councilman walking in. There's been some reports from the news media that the gunman might have walked in with the councilman.
A lot of times what happens is when you get to these checkpoints the situation occurs is that either the person who is allowed in, be it the councilman or the VIP, will turn to the security and say he's OK, he's with me and allows them to walk through the checkpoint unchallenged.
That could be something that may have occurred in this case, although I have no information, you know, either way regarding that but the familiarity of the people walking through saying that person is OK, let him come, that happens a lot of times with staffers.
A staffer coming through by themself would be willing to go through the checkpoint but if they're coming in with the elected official or with the VIP, a lot of times won't stand for the search or for the screening.
BLITZER: All right, Sal, stand by for a second.
We're just getting some comments in now to CNN. The brother of the killed councilman, James Davis, his brother Jeffrey Davis has just spoken out. I want you and our viewers to listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEFFREY DAVIS, COUNCILMAN'S BROTHER: When they tried to stop him as a police officer, he fought and got his job back. When they tried to stop him from having stop the violence functions, he continued having it even if it was in front of his door. The system killed my brother but it's all right. I'm confused right now. How is it that City Hall -- how can this happen in City Hall?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jeffrey, turn to us here and tell us.
DAVIS: That's what I'm concerned about. How could this have happened at City Hall? I'm not afraid. How could this have happened at City Hall? Somebody tell me that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jeffrey, who did it?
DAVIS: Was it a coincidence?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jeffrey, who did it?
DAVIS: I don't know who did it. The system did it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: Sal, obviously a very distraught, very angry brother of James Davis. That was Jeffrey Davis, his brother, speaking out and he asked fair questions. How could this happen at City Hall? Did you personally know, by the way, Councilman Davis?
LIFRIERI: No, I never got to personally know him.
BLITZER: What would you say though to his brother who is obviously very angry?
LIFRIERI: Well, I think one of the good things about it now is that you have a commissioner in place, Commissioner Kelly who has obviously responded as the reports first came in at the initial shooting. The commissioner responded to the scene while the shooting had just occurred.
I think that you have between the mayor and between the police commissioner you have two people that would truly conduct an honest and fair assessment and an honest and fair investigation to determine exactly how this happened, and I'm sure with the commissioner's background and his experience that you're going to see changes taking place in the security procedures at City Hall.
BLITZER: Well, what you were suggesting, Sal, was that some people don't necessarily have to go through metal detectors or be physically examined walking into City Hall while others do. Is there a two-tier system there?
LIFRIERI: I don't know if I'd call it a two-tier system but it just happens and I think it doesn't happen specifically at City Hall. I think you see this anywhere that there are checkpoints that are established.
What happens inevitably is that you have people who have been pre-cleared. The policy at City Hall currently was that you have a councilman, properly identified who is known to the staff would not have to go through security.
You know would staff members also have to go through that if they were with them, possibly, possibly not. But if those situations do occur, and while I'm not saying specific to this event, what I am saying is that when you do have these checkpoints established those situations occur and that's how this could have occurred and, again, that's just pure speculation.
BLITZER: So, your recommendation at this point in terms of some sort of investigation, Ray Kelly the New York City Police Commissioner, obviously well qualified, a lot of experience, but is the community going to want more given the nature of the victim in this particular case, a very popular New York City Councilman?
LIFRIERI: Well, I'm not exactly sure how much more you can have other than the truth and what the story, you know (AUDIO GAP). Is it possible that, you know, changes could be instituted, possibly secondary searches done inside the building? That's possible. (AUDIO GAP) type of recommendations and changes that, you know, I'm sure is going to be looked at and, you know, and made.
But as far as will the investigation be different because he was a councilman, historically the police department, while they've had -- while they've gotten, you know, some bad press over the years about different types of investigations, I really think in this particular case you're going to see the facts come out as they are.
BLITZER: Sal Lifrieri, former director of security and intelligence operations in New York City, for the Office of Emergency Management thanks for joining us on this day.
CNN's Michael Okwu is once again with us. Michael, before I question you, I want to remind our viewers we're standing by to hear from the New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg. He's about to emerge, we're told, to come into this room packed with media. They want answered, a lot of unanswered questions still out there.
Michael, when we spoke just a few minutes ago one of those questions was the confusion that surrounded the incident as it was unfolding. Any new answers, any additional information you're coming up with?
OKWU: Nothing really new right now, Wolf, at this moment. We're all awaiting news from New York city officials, including Mike Bloomberg and, of course, Ray Kelly, the New York City Police Commissioner.
But, we can tell you after speaking to council members here, Wolf that the immediate thought on the minds of some of the council members at least was that this could have been a terrorist act.
They are very unfamiliar, of course, with anything like this but, of course, after the details started filtering through this afternoon that was put to rest and Mayor Michael Bloomberg very early on, Wolf, making a point that he saw this as an isolated incident, that he said that there's absolutely no reason why New Yorkers should not go on conducting their lives as usual.
And, in fact, if the information we're getting is accurate, and there's no reason to question it, it appears that Mr. Bloomberg's words were right on target. This was an isolated incident having to do perhaps with two political rivals. As bizarre as it is, Wolf, something that council members here were completely stunned to hear when it happened.
Again, some council members heard about 15 to 20 rounds go off. It's unclear whether the gunman was able to squeeze off that many rounds or whether that was bullets or ricocheting off the walls in the lower chamber there inside City Hall or whether, in fact, some of that gunfire was gunfire initiated by some of the guards and police officers who made it on the scene immediately after the shootout -- Wolf.
BLITZER: You mentioned the name of the suspected shooter who we believe is now dead himself shot by a bodyguard to one of the other council members. Remind or tell our viewers once again who is this suspected shooter and what is his background if you know anything about this guy?
OKWU: We know very little about this person at this point but, what we are getting from sources is that his name was Othniel Askew, again a political rival of Mr. Miller's -- Mr. Davis' and, what we understand is that he may have been able to get past the metal detectors.
One of the very, very big questions here today is how he got in there. The big answer that we're getting at this point is that he may have actually accompanied the man that he ended up shooting and killing today and that's how he was able to make it in there.
We are told that some of the council members, many of them in fact, do not have to go through the same security process as other people would that they have specific identification that allows them to get through the metal detectors which, by the way, are located at both ends of City Hall and that you can take in some guests with you to also get through that clearance.
So, apparently that is what may have happened. Until we get the confirmation we're just speculating. We expect that Mayor Michael Bloomberg will probably get to that issue very close to the top of this press conference -- Wolf.
BLITZER: And when you say, Michael, they were political rivals were there specific issues in which they were rivals?
OKWU: Well, it's unclear at this point, at least to me, whether or not they had opposing views or whether it was simply an issue of one council member being very popular and the other one sort of running behind him in the race as it were.
All we know at this point is that they were political rivals, not sure whether there is any pressing legislation that Mr. Askew took great odds with Mr. Davis but we do know that Mr. Davis was a very, very popular City Council member.
This is a former minister, I might have mentioned to you earlier, Wolf, and a former police officer. We are told that at least from one council member that he sometimes came into the City Council with his gun.
Now, why is that? Is that old habit? Is that because he was a police officer? It was a licensed gun, he had the right to do so, or was it still sort of the law enforcement mentality taking hold? In either case, today a beloved City Council member is dead at the hands of a rival -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Michael, please stand by because we have a lot more to talk about, a lot more reporting going on.
(INTERRUPTED BY LIVE EVENT)
BLITZER: A very sad day indeed, Mayor Michale Bloomberg, the New York City Mayor emerging, providing details that he and his staff have learned about the shooting about city hall only within the past few hours. The New York City council member James Davis of Brooklyn is dead. The shooter, in this particular case, Othniel Askew, dead as well. The investigation now beginning.
We're going to continue to follow this story. We're also going to speak live with a person who was inside the city hall chambers, the council chambers, when this occurred.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Live coverage of a shooting incident at the New York City council chambers, earlier today. James Davis, the city council member of Brooklyn shot dead. The shooter in this case, Othniel Askew, according to police shot by a local New York City police officer as soon as he opened up fire against James Davis. Othniel Askew described as a rival, a political rival of James Davis.
Betsy Gotbaum, is joining us now. She's on the phone. She was inside the council chambers when all of this unfolded. She's the New York City Public Advocate. Betsy, if you could tell us what you saw and what you personally eyewitnessed, that would be interesting.
BETSY GOTBAUM, NYC PUBLIC ADVOCATE: Well, you know, it's very sad for all of us because a colleague has died tragically in the council chambers and I preside over the city council. So I sit up on a chair that's elevated. When I heard the first pop, which I thought actually at the beginning was a cap gun, I immediately just went underneath my desk, which is a very large desk that is completely surrounded by wood. And I stayed down there because that's just the thing, you know, to do. And so I actually didn't witness anything.
I heard all the speculation afterwards. People were very, very terrified. Very scared. All the children got out, which was terrific. There were children there for some kind of an occasion. And it's just one of those terrible tragedies that you just can't believe it's happening. And I think all of us have to pray for the family and just really take some, like I said, new precautions taken and everyone agrees they should be taken to not allow this happen, again.
BLITZER: When you walked in, at least until today, when you used to walk into city hall, Besty, did you go through magnetometers, metal detectors?
GOTBAUM: No, I did not. And I agree with the mayor and speaker that we should all have to go. Every single person should have to go through the metal detector. It's a little bit of an inconvenience, but you know what it's something we can easily do and look what happened as a result of this.
BLITZER: All right, Betsy Gotbaum, thanks very much for joining us. Our hearts go out, of course, our hearts go out to all of the people of New York. The loss of Councilman James Davis in the shooting at city hall earlier today. We'll continue to follow this story, get the latest information as soon as it becomes available.
But there's other important news we're monitoring as well, including the situation in Iraq following the deaths yesterday of Saddam Hussein's two sons. Iraqis still live in fear of the ousted regime, by all accounts.
What does the United States need to do to cut through the paranoticia and prove to them that Saddam Hussein's two sons are no longer a threat?
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KEN POLLACK, BROOKINGS INSTITUTION: It's going to be hard to convince the Iraqi people if they don't show the photos if they don't broadcast them in some way, shape or form.
BLITZER (voice-over): The debate played out in public for most of the day. U.S. Officials revealing some of their thought processes on whether to publicly release pictures of the bodies of Uday and Qusay Hussein.
PAUL WOLFOWITZ, DEPUTY DEFENSE SECRETARY: If we have to do some things that people say, you know, you know, you're just scraping over the past, you're giving us all the shocking stuff, why should our children have to see it on television. Let me tell you, the main consideration on the other side is saving the lives of American men and women who are on the line.
BLITZER: But is it acceptable legally, diplomatically, morally, to release those pictures to a worldwide audience?
Had they been captured, the Geneva Convention does has parameters for releasing images of prisoners of war. Article 13, "Prisoners of war must at all times be protected, particularly against acts of violence or intimidation and against insults and public curiosity."
March 23 of this year, of this year, American Soldiers help prisoner by Iraqis after the ambush of the U.S. Army's 507th Maintenance Unit. These images shown on Arab language networks then on American TV. Human rights groups and U.S. officials outraged.
DONALD RUMSFELD, DEFENSE SECRETARY: It is against the Geneva Convention to show photographs of prisoners of war in a manner that's humiliating for them.
BLITZER: But in this case, Uday and Qusay Hussein were not prisoners of war. They were on the U.S. list of most wanted former regime members. There is no stipulation in the Geneva Convention against releasing pictures of dead bodies. And the human rights groups we spoke to today, Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International, say they know of no other prohibition against public release of those images. Video of the bodies of American Soldiers killed in that March 23 ambush were shown on Arab TV. One still picture of those troops, no faces showing, aired on CNN. Some U.S. officials were upset, but it wasn't illegal. Some observers say the whole point of releasing the Uday and Qusay pictures might not even have its desired effect.
GEN. DON SHEPPERD, U.S. AIR FORCE (RET.): Even if you show pictures, people are going to say if they want to believe that they are still alive or there is still hope, they can say, you faked the pictures. So just because you show pictures of dead people doesn't mean the issue is dead.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: Should the United States produce the images and show the actual photos?
Joining me is Stephen Hayes of the "Weekly Standard," he is just back from Iraq.
And in West Babylon, New York, Bianca Jagger. Thanks to both of you.
Steve, I know you feel strongly the Bush administration should release these photos. Tell our viewers why.
STEPHEN HAYES, "THE WEEKLY STANDARD": Wolf, I spent the last five days in Iraq with Deputy Secretary Paul Wolfowitz. We heard again and again these sort of crazy conspiracy theories circulating in and around Iraq about U.S. motives, U.S. actions coming plans that the reconstruction is taking. And these complaints and these conspiracy theories came not from, you know, average Iraqis on the street. Although I told they are circulated there. They came from city council members in cities like Najaf saying, for instance, are you holding Saddam Hussein as a trump card to use against us? Are you holding him over our head? Those are the conspiracies that we need to knock down. And already we've seen, I think, in the short time after the deaths of Uday and Qusay, similar conspiracy theories once again circulating in Iraq.
BLITZER: And the photos presumably would end that.
Bianca, what's wrong, if anything, with that line of thinking?
BIANCA JAGGER, HUMAN RIGHTS ACTIVIST: Well, what I am concerned more even than the releasing of the photographs is the idea that the United States is engaged in assassination. And I am concerned about the backfire that that can have. As you know, President Ford had imposed that the United States should not use assassination against other people, and so is that...
BLITZER: When you call this Bianca -- let me interrupt for a second. When you call this assassination, they were warned. They were told to surrender and give up, but they resisted and they shot out with their own small arms fire. What is the U.S. Military supposed to do?
JAGGER: Well, I would like to say is that we have to think that at all times the military has to act in accordance to international humanitarian law and human right law. So is it -- would it make us more vulnerable to go and assassinate them or would it have been better to try to capture them, bring them to justice and then we will be more secure that way than if we killed them and then they feel that they have the right to do exactly the same towards us and towards our military in Iraq.
BLITZER: You know, Steve, there's a lot of others, not just Bianca Jagger who believe the U.S., the coalition, the Iraqi people would have been better off if the military had captured them alive and at least got some information out of them, put them on a public war crimes trial inside Iraq. That's the argument you're hearing.
HAYES: This may surprise Ms. Jagger. I agree with her. I share those concerns. As you pointed out correctly, though, we did first try to enter the building. That wasn't possible. They took fire repeatedly in their attempts to capture the Hussein brothers first. So they decided to bring out the heavy artillery and kill them. I think they were basically left with no choice.
BLITZER: What about the getting back it the initial question, releasing these photos.
Would it cause any damage, do you believe, if the world saw the bodies, the faces of these two dead sons?
JAGGER: I think it might incite people to want revenge. And to want to do the same towards the military and towards people in this country, and that's my concern. Are we going to release photographs of people who are completely deformed and then, even though it might not be covered by the Geneva Convention, it is covered by our moral obligation of not releasing photographs that are offensive to other people.
BLITZER: You know, that's a point that's well taken, Steve. I have to wrap it up here. We only have a few seconds left. But it does go against the whole nature of the U.S. military to release pictures of the enemy dead.
HAYES: You know, I agree. And one way around that would be to give the photographs to the new governing council in Iraq and let them do with them as they decide.
BLITZER: All right, Steve Hayes, unfortunately, we have to leave it right there. Bianca Jagger, thanks to both of you for joining us.
Here's your turn to weigh in on this story. Our Web question of today is this, should the United States release pictures of the bodies of Saddam Hussein's sons? We'll have the results later this hour. You can vote at CNN.com/wolf.
While you are there, I'd love to hear from you. Send me your comments. I'll try to read some of them on the air at the end of this program. That's also where you can read my daily online column, CNN.com/wolf.
U.S. leaders suggest the killing of Saddam Hussein's sons is a turning point for Iraq. Could it also mark a turning point for the entire Middle East? Joining us now here in Washington, the foreign minister of Israel, Silvan Shalom. Mr. Minister, welcome to Washington. Thanks so much for joining us. What, if anything, will the death of Uday and Qusay Hussein mean for the Israeli-Palestinian peace process?
SILVAN SHALOM, ISRAELI FOREIGN MINISTER: I think the last news from Iraq are very encouraging, first for the Iraqi people that were afraid from these brutal members of this regime, and we all hope that we will get Saddam Hussein as well.
I think it's very important to the whole region because it will motivate those moderate leaders to move toward peace with the state of Israel, while until now they were afraid from Saddam Hussein and his sons. They all have been aware to the situation that took place in 1991 while they occupied Kuwait and they were afraid the same he will do to them. Now I think this is the time for them, for the Iraqi leaders, for the moderate leaders in the region to move forward and to have peace with the State of Israel.
BLITZER: Well there is some movement right now. You're here in Washington. You just met with the secretary of state. The Palestinian prime minister Mahmoud Abbas is coming to Washington this week as well. Next week your prime minister Ariel Sharon will be here. Is there some considerable movement? Is there hope that this Israeli-Palestinian peace process will result in an independent Palestinian state living alongside Israel?
SHALOM: We are now facing a new opportunity that we are determined to seize and both parties feel the same. There is a glimmer of hope. We can see that the new leadership of the Palestinians speak differently. They speak more positively, and we hope that they will take actions as well. We think both parties should implement their commitment according to the road map.
BLITZER: Do you trust Mahmoud Abbas, the Palestinian prime minister?
SHALOM; I can tell you that I've met him and I was very encouraged by this meeting, but announcements and declarations are very important, but they are not enough. What is more important is that they will take serious actions against those...
BLITZER: Well on that point, are they taking, Mohammed Dahlan, the security chief under Mahmoud Abbas, are they taking steps to try to deal with Hamas, Islamic Jihad, these other groups?
SHALOM: Unfortunately the answer is not. They were talking about it, but they were always telling us, don't teach us how to deal with them. Since, we have signed this security agreement and they achieve the cease-fire with those extremists. They didn't do anything to implement their infrastructure. We could have seen that those extremists are using this time to dig more tunnels and to smuggle more weapons and to make more rockets, the Qasam, to see if they can have longer range.
I think it's very important for them to take this serious decision and to dismantle the infrastructure of terrorists. That's the -- should do it in order not to give those groups to blow up all the peace process when they will decide to do it.
BLITZER: Silvan Shalom, the foreign minister of Israel, thanks for joining us. Good luck to you.
In a moment, new information from Iran on capturing al Qaeda terrorists. Which of al Qaeda's top terrorists may have been captured already? That story, the results of our Web question. That's all coming up, stay with us.
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BLITZER: Welcome back. For the first time, we're getting a look inside that Mosul mansion where Saddam Hussein's two sons were holed up. When Uday and Qusay Hussein refused to surrender, U.S. forces launched an all-out assault using rockets, machine guns, and missiles with deadly results.
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BLITZER: A glimpse inside a shattered window reveals a scene of utter devastation. Debris fills the room with random objects scattered throughout: an empty box here, a shoe there. Elsewhere, what looks like blood stains, testimony to the deadly hours long battle that unfolded here yesterday.
A soda can sits unopened on a table. Nearby, a desktop computer, evidence the massive stone villa belongs to someone either well off, well connected, or both. Neighbors say the men who lived here is a contractor and possibly a distant relative of Saddam Hussein. And some western media are reporting he is the one who tipped off U.S. forces.
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BLITZER: Let's move to Iran now, a key development in the war against terror today. Iran, the government in Iran, has officially confirmed it's holding senior al Qaeda members and will hunt others down. Our national correspondent Mike Boettcher, reports.
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MIKE BOETTCHER, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This is the first time the Iranian government has admitted senior al Qaeda members are in that country and in custody. The remarks come two days after President Bush once again criticized Iran.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Today Syria and Iran continue to harbor and assist terrorists.
BOETTCHER: Intelligence officials say Iran has become both a haven and a transit point for al Qaeda members. The Iranians won't name names, but for months, U.S. intelligence has said that this man, Saif al-Adel was in Iran, a former member of Egypt's special forces. He's now generally considers to be al Qaeda's No. 3, and its military commander.
ROHAN GUNARATNA, AUTHOR, "INSIDE AL QAEDA": Saif al-Adel played a critical role in all the al Qaeda landmark operations, 9/11, the east Africa attacks, the Mombasa attacks.
BOETTCHER: Osama bin Laden's spokesman, Suleiman Abu Ghaith is also believed to be in Iranian custody according to the Kuwaiti interior minister, who just last week said his country turned down an offer from Iran to extradite Abu Ghaith, because Kuwait stripped Abut Ghaith of his citizenship days after he appeared on this videotape with bin Laden.
U.S. officials are closely studying the Iranian intelligence chief's comments. But so far, they say they've received no official word from Iran that that country is indeed holding al Qaeda suspects and is willing to turn them over. Mike Boettcher, CNN, Atlanta.
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BLITZER: Now here's how you are weighing on our Web question of the day. This is the question we've been asking you, should the U.S. release pictures of the bodies of Saddam's sons? Look at this, 70 percent of you say yes, 30 percent of you say no. Remember this is not, not a scientific poll.
You can continue to vote, by the way, go to our Web sit, cnn.com/wolf.
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