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American Morning
Death Row Plea
Aired July 28, 2003 - 07:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: An inmate on Indiana's death row is hoping for a reprieve from the state's governor. Darnell Williams is scheduled to be executed on Friday. Last week, a federal judge rejected his request for a DNA test that supporters say would cast doubt on his murder conviction. Those supporters include the man who prosecuted him and at least one juror who helped to put him behind bars.
Jeff Flock live in Indianapolis this morning for more on this story.
Jeff -- good morning there.
JEFF FLOCK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Bill, good morning to you.
Indeed, time running out for Darnell Williams. As you report, in Michigan City, Indiana, to the north here on Friday, he is scheduled to be put to death, but even the prosecutor and some of the jurors who convicted him and sent him to death row say, don't do it.
I want to show you a picture of Darnell Williams. This is him appearing before the state parole board, which is to convene here in Indianapolis again in about two-and-a-half hours. Williams essentially appealed for his life when he testified before the board last week. That board could make a recommendation to the state's governor today.
Now to the details of the case. Williams convicted in the 1986 robbery and murder of a Gary, Indiana, couple, John and Henrietta Reese (ph). Williams got the death penalty largely as a result of two drops of blood on his pants which allegedly tied him to the victims. But now, the prosecutor in the case says he's not sure about that blood evidence, and it should be DNA-tested. Some of the jurors have said they sent him to death row -- Williams that is -- just because of that blood evidence. And if it's not right, then they would not have sent him to death row.
But it seems that Williams can't get that blood DNA-tested. No courts have gone for it thus far. It may come down to the governor and the recommendation of this parole board that convenes, as we said, in about two-and-a-half hours to order the testing or perhaps to give him a break.
Lawyers are running out of appeals, and they don't like to be in that position. They don't want to leave this in the hands of a governor, who has so far not issued any clemencies.
That's the latest from Indianapolis.
Bill -- back to you.
HEMMER: Jeff, thanks for that.
More now on the case with Juliet Yackel. She'll join us in a moment. She is the attorney for Williams. She is also live in Indianapolis, right near Jeff's location.
Here in our studio in New York, Barry Scheck, law professor and founder of The Innocence Project, who has been working on this case as well.
Good morning to you, Barry.
BARRY SCHECK, THE INNOCENCE PROJECT: Good morning.
HEMMER: Why were the shorts not tested 17 years ago?
SCHECK: Well, they did conventional serology testing. What happened was, is they arrested Mr. Williams. They found no blood on his pants. They gave him his clothes back. He went to jail. Three days later, they get his pants. They get some serological testing of three little blood drops that they say are consistent with both victims.
Tom Vein (ph) is the prosecutor who tried the case, told the jurors, this shows he's the trigger man; that's why he should get the death penalty.
Three jurors now have come forward, including the one who led the charge to put him on death row based on the blood evidence. Now, we're trying to get DNA testing of that blood evidence, and we've been shut out of all these courts.
HEMMER: Where were these jurors almost two decades ago?
SCHECK: Well, I mean, it's not their fault. They were told the blood came from the victims. The prosecutor thought that, too. Now, they're coming forward and they're saying, No. 1, he shouldn't get death because he had a co-defendant who was the heavy in the case that they're sure did the shooting, and he's gotten a life sentence because he suffers from mental retardation. They're saying Mr. Williams shouldn't get death. But most importantly at this point, there is no basis for him getting death if he's not the trigger man, the blood could show he's not the trigger man, and we can't get DNA tests.
So, we're hoping that today the clemency board will tell these people, who are holding the evidence, we're volunteering to pay for the tests, send it to one of the best labs in the world, get it done very quickly. And so far, the state attorney general goes, I can't tell them to do it. A federal judge says, I don't have jurisdiction to order them, although I think it's a good idea. And we haven't yet heard from the clemency board.
HEMMER: Let me stop you there. You can do this test within five days.
SCHECK: Oh, we can do it within three days.
HEMMER: Friday is the scheduled execution.
SCHECK: Yes, but they shouldn't rush it. They should give a reprieve. What's the rush?
HEMMER: How good then is the evidence 17 years later?
SCHECK: Well, it will be as good as any DNA tests we do on old evidence.
HEMMER: It will be.
SCHECK: Sure, it's a question of whether there is enough DNA on that blood stain. It's simple.
HEMMER: Julie Yackel is with us now in Indianapolis.
Good morning to you, Ms. Yackel. We've talked about the shorts. You say there were two major mistakes made in this case going back 17 years ago. I'm assuming the shorts is one. What's the other?
JULIET YACKEL, ATTORNEY FOR DARNELL WILLIAMS: The other big mistake is that the jurors never heard about key evidence that Williams was seen running from the victims' house at the time of the fatal shooting. And the jurors now say if they'd had that information, they wouldn't have sentenced him to death.
HEMMER: But is it not true that in your state of Indiana there is a question about not so much whether he was involved in this crime because it's been established that he was there at or around the time of the shooting, and as an accomplice you are eligible for the death penalty in Indiana, correct?
YACKEL: That's correct. But really the question is this? Is he worthy of the death penalty? Is he the kind of person we want to execute? And the jurors in this case say if he wasn't a triggerman, they would not have voted for death. And that's the real question here: Is he the kind of person that we want to execute?
HEMMER: We are with the governor and waiting for him. You know, as Jeff Flock described, Barry, that the parole board is going to get this case right now. What are they looking at in terms of giving, if not a total reprieve, at least an extension to find out if your case plays out the way you described it to us.
SCHECK: Well, the first thing they ought to do is give a reprieve, some more time so we can get this DNA testing done. It's inconceivable to me that they won't. You may recall in the 2000 election, we were able to get then Governor George Bush to issue his only stay of an execution in Texas for a DNA test. This Thanksgiving, Governor Jeb Bush, at 10 minutes to 6:00 -- because I was in his office -- issued a reprieve for Amos King (ph) to get a DNA test. So, you know, that's a no-brainer. He should do that. But this case, you don't have to wait really for the DNA tests. Darnell Williams had no felony record. Darnell Williams is an individual that had saved another's life in an accident situation performing CPR.
HEMMER: But you know what the state law says in Indiana. As an accomplice, you are eligible for the death penalty.
SCHECK: Well, this is one of the big problems that we have with the death penalty. You know, felony murder may make you death- eligible, right? But this juror was saying we only gave him the death penalty, we only recommended it and the judge only imposed it, and we have one of the judges that affirmed the death penalty coming forward at this hearing today. They're saying, look, the co-defendant in the case who is the more culpable party, he is getting life. There were other co-defendants in this case, one who turned state's evidence and testified. He obviously isn't getting death. Darnell Williams is unworthy of getting just in terms of proportionality, just in terms of, you know, whether he ought to get it. So, without having the DNA tests here to prove he's not the triggerman, he shouldn't be sentenced to death on Friday anyhow.
HEMMER: We're almost out of time. Back to Indy. Quickly, Ms. Yackel, when will you get an answer? Will it come today or not?
YACKEL: 3:00 today we'll have a recommendation from the board. But after that, the governor can still ponder this decision and anytime before the scheduled execution. It's not too late until Mr. Williams is dead.
HEMMER: Has your governor ever issued a reprieve in a death penalty case?
YACKEL: He has not, but we should note that just this last year in all contiguous states, governors have issued clemencies in capital cases -- recently in Kentucky, this past month in Ohio, and, of course, Governor Ryan in Illinois.
HEMMER: Juliet Yackel in Indianapolis, Barry Scheck live here in New York, thanks to both of you.
SCHECK: Thank you.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com.
Aired July 28, 2003 - 07:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: An inmate on Indiana's death row is hoping for a reprieve from the state's governor. Darnell Williams is scheduled to be executed on Friday. Last week, a federal judge rejected his request for a DNA test that supporters say would cast doubt on his murder conviction. Those supporters include the man who prosecuted him and at least one juror who helped to put him behind bars.
Jeff Flock live in Indianapolis this morning for more on this story.
Jeff -- good morning there.
JEFF FLOCK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Bill, good morning to you.
Indeed, time running out for Darnell Williams. As you report, in Michigan City, Indiana, to the north here on Friday, he is scheduled to be put to death, but even the prosecutor and some of the jurors who convicted him and sent him to death row say, don't do it.
I want to show you a picture of Darnell Williams. This is him appearing before the state parole board, which is to convene here in Indianapolis again in about two-and-a-half hours. Williams essentially appealed for his life when he testified before the board last week. That board could make a recommendation to the state's governor today.
Now to the details of the case. Williams convicted in the 1986 robbery and murder of a Gary, Indiana, couple, John and Henrietta Reese (ph). Williams got the death penalty largely as a result of two drops of blood on his pants which allegedly tied him to the victims. But now, the prosecutor in the case says he's not sure about that blood evidence, and it should be DNA-tested. Some of the jurors have said they sent him to death row -- Williams that is -- just because of that blood evidence. And if it's not right, then they would not have sent him to death row.
But it seems that Williams can't get that blood DNA-tested. No courts have gone for it thus far. It may come down to the governor and the recommendation of this parole board that convenes, as we said, in about two-and-a-half hours to order the testing or perhaps to give him a break.
Lawyers are running out of appeals, and they don't like to be in that position. They don't want to leave this in the hands of a governor, who has so far not issued any clemencies.
That's the latest from Indianapolis.
Bill -- back to you.
HEMMER: Jeff, thanks for that.
More now on the case with Juliet Yackel. She'll join us in a moment. She is the attorney for Williams. She is also live in Indianapolis, right near Jeff's location.
Here in our studio in New York, Barry Scheck, law professor and founder of The Innocence Project, who has been working on this case as well.
Good morning to you, Barry.
BARRY SCHECK, THE INNOCENCE PROJECT: Good morning.
HEMMER: Why were the shorts not tested 17 years ago?
SCHECK: Well, they did conventional serology testing. What happened was, is they arrested Mr. Williams. They found no blood on his pants. They gave him his clothes back. He went to jail. Three days later, they get his pants. They get some serological testing of three little blood drops that they say are consistent with both victims.
Tom Vein (ph) is the prosecutor who tried the case, told the jurors, this shows he's the trigger man; that's why he should get the death penalty.
Three jurors now have come forward, including the one who led the charge to put him on death row based on the blood evidence. Now, we're trying to get DNA testing of that blood evidence, and we've been shut out of all these courts.
HEMMER: Where were these jurors almost two decades ago?
SCHECK: Well, I mean, it's not their fault. They were told the blood came from the victims. The prosecutor thought that, too. Now, they're coming forward and they're saying, No. 1, he shouldn't get death because he had a co-defendant who was the heavy in the case that they're sure did the shooting, and he's gotten a life sentence because he suffers from mental retardation. They're saying Mr. Williams shouldn't get death. But most importantly at this point, there is no basis for him getting death if he's not the trigger man, the blood could show he's not the trigger man, and we can't get DNA tests.
So, we're hoping that today the clemency board will tell these people, who are holding the evidence, we're volunteering to pay for the tests, send it to one of the best labs in the world, get it done very quickly. And so far, the state attorney general goes, I can't tell them to do it. A federal judge says, I don't have jurisdiction to order them, although I think it's a good idea. And we haven't yet heard from the clemency board.
HEMMER: Let me stop you there. You can do this test within five days.
SCHECK: Oh, we can do it within three days.
HEMMER: Friday is the scheduled execution.
SCHECK: Yes, but they shouldn't rush it. They should give a reprieve. What's the rush?
HEMMER: How good then is the evidence 17 years later?
SCHECK: Well, it will be as good as any DNA tests we do on old evidence.
HEMMER: It will be.
SCHECK: Sure, it's a question of whether there is enough DNA on that blood stain. It's simple.
HEMMER: Julie Yackel is with us now in Indianapolis.
Good morning to you, Ms. Yackel. We've talked about the shorts. You say there were two major mistakes made in this case going back 17 years ago. I'm assuming the shorts is one. What's the other?
JULIET YACKEL, ATTORNEY FOR DARNELL WILLIAMS: The other big mistake is that the jurors never heard about key evidence that Williams was seen running from the victims' house at the time of the fatal shooting. And the jurors now say if they'd had that information, they wouldn't have sentenced him to death.
HEMMER: But is it not true that in your state of Indiana there is a question about not so much whether he was involved in this crime because it's been established that he was there at or around the time of the shooting, and as an accomplice you are eligible for the death penalty in Indiana, correct?
YACKEL: That's correct. But really the question is this? Is he worthy of the death penalty? Is he the kind of person we want to execute? And the jurors in this case say if he wasn't a triggerman, they would not have voted for death. And that's the real question here: Is he the kind of person that we want to execute?
HEMMER: We are with the governor and waiting for him. You know, as Jeff Flock described, Barry, that the parole board is going to get this case right now. What are they looking at in terms of giving, if not a total reprieve, at least an extension to find out if your case plays out the way you described it to us.
SCHECK: Well, the first thing they ought to do is give a reprieve, some more time so we can get this DNA testing done. It's inconceivable to me that they won't. You may recall in the 2000 election, we were able to get then Governor George Bush to issue his only stay of an execution in Texas for a DNA test. This Thanksgiving, Governor Jeb Bush, at 10 minutes to 6:00 -- because I was in his office -- issued a reprieve for Amos King (ph) to get a DNA test. So, you know, that's a no-brainer. He should do that. But this case, you don't have to wait really for the DNA tests. Darnell Williams had no felony record. Darnell Williams is an individual that had saved another's life in an accident situation performing CPR.
HEMMER: But you know what the state law says in Indiana. As an accomplice, you are eligible for the death penalty.
SCHECK: Well, this is one of the big problems that we have with the death penalty. You know, felony murder may make you death- eligible, right? But this juror was saying we only gave him the death penalty, we only recommended it and the judge only imposed it, and we have one of the judges that affirmed the death penalty coming forward at this hearing today. They're saying, look, the co-defendant in the case who is the more culpable party, he is getting life. There were other co-defendants in this case, one who turned state's evidence and testified. He obviously isn't getting death. Darnell Williams is unworthy of getting just in terms of proportionality, just in terms of, you know, whether he ought to get it. So, without having the DNA tests here to prove he's not the triggerman, he shouldn't be sentenced to death on Friday anyhow.
HEMMER: We're almost out of time. Back to Indy. Quickly, Ms. Yackel, when will you get an answer? Will it come today or not?
YACKEL: 3:00 today we'll have a recommendation from the board. But after that, the governor can still ponder this decision and anytime before the scheduled execution. It's not too late until Mr. Williams is dead.
HEMMER: Has your governor ever issued a reprieve in a death penalty case?
YACKEL: He has not, but we should note that just this last year in all contiguous states, governors have issued clemencies in capital cases -- recently in Kentucky, this past month in Ohio, and, of course, Governor Ryan in Illinois.
HEMMER: Juliet Yackel in Indianapolis, Barry Scheck live here in New York, thanks to both of you.
SCHECK: Thank you.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com.
