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American Morning
Does Saddam Hussein Have Help?
Aired July 29, 2003 - 07:05 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Even with today's capture of Saddam's bodyguard and the deaths last week of his two sons, 18 in the Pentagon's 55 most-wanted still remain at-large. Who are they? And could they be helping the ace of spades elude capture?
Phebe Marr, author of the "Modern History of Iraq," a former senior fellow at the National Defense University, with us from Washington.
Good morning to you.
PHEBE MARR, "MODERN HISTORY OF IRAQ: Good morning.
HEMMER: You believe Saddam must be captured. A lot of people probably believe you and agree with you. Tell us why he must be captured at this point?
MARR: Well, for a number of reasons. As you know, there is this widespread fear in Iraq that the Baath so-called is going to return, and Americans will get weary of this and leave. And that is the last thing that most people in Iraq want. And it is inhibiting people coming forward and cooperating with us.
So, anything that can convince people that weve actually put an end to this regime, it is not -- I repeat -- not coming back, will help the whole psychological framework in Iraq. And naturally, nothing will put the nail in the coffin quite as firmly as getting the ace of spades himself.
HEMMER: Yes, when you have a look at some of these poll numbers just out comparing American attitudes about this capture this month as opposed to last month, in June, 48 percent thought the capture would be imminent. Now, that number is up to 68 percent. Are you as confident as those in this poll are?
MARR: Well, 68 percent isn't 100 percent. I'm more optimistic today than I was before the capture of the sons and the bodyguard. But Saddam is very good at eluding people, and I won't believe he's captured until I actually see it. But we are getting closer, I think that's clear.
HEMMER: I want to get to some specific individuals. Back on April 7th in the southern town of Basra, coalition forces thought they bombed and killed "Chemical Ali." Apparently, they backed off of that over the past three or four months. How critical is he, if at all?
MARR: Well, he's very critical, because most of the people who know where Saddam might be, who know his plan for getting away, are his close relatives, and Ali Hassan al-Majeed was certainly one of them. Some of the bodyguards and others on the list still out there would be in a very good position to know his escape plan. But people like Ali Hassan al-Majeed and others must themselves at this point be very worried about capture. And it's not clear to me, of course, where he is and whether he's with Saddam. They're probably scurrying around, many of them trying to protect themselves as well.
HEMMER: Two other names I want to throw out just to get your reaction on this. The king of spades (sic), No. 6, is al-Duri, and the king of hearts, No. 7, known as Hani Tilfah. How critical?
MARR: I would say Hani Tilfah, contrary to what most people may think, would be more important in locating Saddam than Duri. Duri was a very high-ranking member of the party, very close to Saddam, but he's not a member of the family. Tilfah is a cousin on his mother's side, and most of the protective services were kept in the family. And he, if I'm not mistaken, is the one that was in charge of the special security operation, and that was, in fact, in charge of Saddam's protection. So, he must really know where the safe houses are and so on.
HEMMER: Yes. Just a few seconds left here. The same question to you, as Harris Whitbeck, and you touched on it in your first answer. How does the landscape, how does the relationship change if Saddam is indeed found?
MARR: Well, it will change it substantially. Certainly, it will have decapitated the head of the regime. It will certainly convince a lot more people that the regime not only is not coming back, but cannot come back. The leader and the two sons are gone.
But I also agree that there are lots of mid-level Baathists, other people who do not like occupation around. And I don't think we should have the expectation that some of the insurgents and dislike of occupation is simply going to be turned off like the radio just because Saddam goes.
HEMMER: Phebe Marr in D.C., thanks for talking and sharing your opinions with us. Appreciate it.
MARR: You're welcome.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com.
Aired July 29, 2003 - 07:05 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Even with today's capture of Saddam's bodyguard and the deaths last week of his two sons, 18 in the Pentagon's 55 most-wanted still remain at-large. Who are they? And could they be helping the ace of spades elude capture?
Phebe Marr, author of the "Modern History of Iraq," a former senior fellow at the National Defense University, with us from Washington.
Good morning to you.
PHEBE MARR, "MODERN HISTORY OF IRAQ: Good morning.
HEMMER: You believe Saddam must be captured. A lot of people probably believe you and agree with you. Tell us why he must be captured at this point?
MARR: Well, for a number of reasons. As you know, there is this widespread fear in Iraq that the Baath so-called is going to return, and Americans will get weary of this and leave. And that is the last thing that most people in Iraq want. And it is inhibiting people coming forward and cooperating with us.
So, anything that can convince people that weve actually put an end to this regime, it is not -- I repeat -- not coming back, will help the whole psychological framework in Iraq. And naturally, nothing will put the nail in the coffin quite as firmly as getting the ace of spades himself.
HEMMER: Yes, when you have a look at some of these poll numbers just out comparing American attitudes about this capture this month as opposed to last month, in June, 48 percent thought the capture would be imminent. Now, that number is up to 68 percent. Are you as confident as those in this poll are?
MARR: Well, 68 percent isn't 100 percent. I'm more optimistic today than I was before the capture of the sons and the bodyguard. But Saddam is very good at eluding people, and I won't believe he's captured until I actually see it. But we are getting closer, I think that's clear.
HEMMER: I want to get to some specific individuals. Back on April 7th in the southern town of Basra, coalition forces thought they bombed and killed "Chemical Ali." Apparently, they backed off of that over the past three or four months. How critical is he, if at all?
MARR: Well, he's very critical, because most of the people who know where Saddam might be, who know his plan for getting away, are his close relatives, and Ali Hassan al-Majeed was certainly one of them. Some of the bodyguards and others on the list still out there would be in a very good position to know his escape plan. But people like Ali Hassan al-Majeed and others must themselves at this point be very worried about capture. And it's not clear to me, of course, where he is and whether he's with Saddam. They're probably scurrying around, many of them trying to protect themselves as well.
HEMMER: Two other names I want to throw out just to get your reaction on this. The king of spades (sic), No. 6, is al-Duri, and the king of hearts, No. 7, known as Hani Tilfah. How critical?
MARR: I would say Hani Tilfah, contrary to what most people may think, would be more important in locating Saddam than Duri. Duri was a very high-ranking member of the party, very close to Saddam, but he's not a member of the family. Tilfah is a cousin on his mother's side, and most of the protective services were kept in the family. And he, if I'm not mistaken, is the one that was in charge of the special security operation, and that was, in fact, in charge of Saddam's protection. So, he must really know where the safe houses are and so on.
HEMMER: Yes. Just a few seconds left here. The same question to you, as Harris Whitbeck, and you touched on it in your first answer. How does the landscape, how does the relationship change if Saddam is indeed found?
MARR: Well, it will change it substantially. Certainly, it will have decapitated the head of the regime. It will certainly convince a lot more people that the regime not only is not coming back, but cannot come back. The leader and the two sons are gone.
But I also agree that there are lots of mid-level Baathists, other people who do not like occupation around. And I don't think we should have the expectation that some of the insurgents and dislike of occupation is simply going to be turned off like the radio just because Saddam goes.
HEMMER: Phebe Marr in D.C., thanks for talking and sharing your opinions with us. Appreciate it.
MARR: You're welcome.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com.
