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American Morning

Frank O'Bannon Granted a 60-Day Stay

Aired July 29, 2003 - 07:36   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: All right, we want to get back to this Indiana story right now. The governor in that state has answered the plea of a death row inmate. Frank O'Bannon granted a 60 day stay for a prisoner who was scheduled to die on Friday, the 1st of August, so that blood evidence in the case can be DNA tested.
Jeff Flock back with us live in Indy for more on this story this morning -- Jeff, good morning there.

JEFF FLOCK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning to you, Bill.

Indeed, speaking of President Bush, he did it while governor of Texas. His brother Jeb Bush down in Florida has done it. But before yesterday, Indiana Governor Frank O'Bannon had not issued a death row stay of execution. But now he has and some people, at least, are happy about it.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you, Jesus.

FLOCK (voice-over): Darnell Williams' family celebrates his 60 day reprieve.

SHIRLEY GREER, WILLIAMS' MOTHER: I'm very happy. I'm very, very happy. I'm a happy mother that my son is going to get another, he's going to get a chance.

FLOCK: But it's only a chance to prove, as Williams told his parole board hearing, that blood found on his clothing didn't come from this Gary, Indiana couple he stands convicted of murdering in 1986.

JOHN GNAJEK, FORMER JUROR: I was one of the jurors who voted for death.

FLOCK: John Gnajek at the parole board. He tells them and us that without blood evidence, he would have given Williams life in prison, not death.

GNAJEK: The only physical evidence was the blood evidence on his shorts.

FLOCK (on camera): So if you hadn't had that evidence, you wouldn't have given him the death penalty?

GNAJEK: There's no way we could have given him the death penalty if he wasn't a triggerman. And that was the only evidence that actually put him in the room.

TOM VANES, FORMER PROSECUTOR: I was aggressive.

FLOCK (voice-over): Maybe too much so, admits prosecutor Tom Vanes, who now thinks that DNA testing could eliminate what was his best evidence.

VANES: I knew that the blood evidence we presented was critical to getting Mr. Williams the death sentence.

FLOCK: And may now be critical in getting him life, says Williams' lawyer.

(on camera): How is he?

JULIET YACKEL, WILLIAMS' ATTORNEY: He's fine. He's a religious man and he leaves it in god's hands.

FLOCK (voice-over): Once the DNA test comes back, it'll be in the Indiana governor's hands, who, in six years, has never granted a death row clemency. The family of the victims says Darnell Williams shouldn't be the first.

FELICIA MOORE, VICTIM'S RELATIVE: And they portrayed him as he was a saint or something. And I don't know, like maybe because it's been 17 years if they remember or not, but I want you guys to consider my aunt and uncle.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FLOCK: Bill, it is important to note that there is other evidence linking Darnell Williams to these crimes. So it is possible that the DNA tests could come back in his favor and the governor could still decide to let the execution go forward. That is possible. We'll continue to watch it.

HEMMER: One of the many questions.

Jeff, thanks.

Let's put them to Barry Scheck now, law professor, founder of The Innocence Project, back with us here on AMERICAN MORNING. We spoke yesterday before the decision came down.

Any surprise from the governor?

BARRY SCHECK, THE INNOCENCE PROJECT: Well, I'm not surprised that they granted DNA testing here. They had to. The Bush brothers, Governor Bush in Texas and Jeb Bush just this Thanksgiving -- I was involved in both cases -- they both did it at the last minute.

HEMMER: How much of -- and George Ryan, the governor in Illinois, when he was going out of office at the end of this, what, it was about seven months ago?

SCHECK: Yes. HEMMER: He put a freeze on executions. How much is that playing right now into these decisions we're seeing across the country?

SCHECK: Oh, it's playing enormously because what's happened is that people realize that many of these death sentences and even convictions just are not reliable. We have 132 post-conviction DNA exonerations. There are 108 people who have been sentenced to death in this country since the reinstitution of the death penalty whose sentence -- who have been exonerated with new evidence of innocence, not DNA. And DNA was only involved in 13 of those cases.

HEMMER: Let's talk about this case specifically in Indiana. First, is there enough blood on these shorts to conduct a fair test?

SCHECK: Well, we don't know. There was very, you know, when Mr. Williams was arrested originally, they looked at his shorts. They found no blood. They gave him back his shorts. Then three days later, they took him out of the jail cell and they found three little blood drops and they did some conventional serology on those. Now we can do DNA on it, you know, if they're still in a form where bacteria hasn't downgraded the sample.

So we don't know whether we'll get a result or not.

HEMMER: Three drops you mentioned. Enough?

SCHECK: Well, it should be ordinarily.

HEMMER: It should be.

SCHECK: It should be ordinarily. But it depends on how it was preserved.

HEMMER: The question we talked about yesterday, 17 years later, how reliable is this evidence?

SCHECK: Well, you know, it's, so many of the cases we've had samples that are 10, 15, 20, 30 years old. You can do a reliable test. But, you know, the real issue here is that Tom Vanes, the prosecutor in the case, not only did he say that there should be DNA testing, but he said yesterday in front of the clemency board regardless of the DNA tests, that Mr. Williams should not be executed because the co-defendant in the case was the one that was really the most culpable. He had blood all over him. He's the one that certainly did the shootings and he has received a life sentence.

So, you know, the judge that presided over the conviction and Mr. Vanes, the prosecutor, are saying look, there shouldn't be a death penalty in this case, no matter what.

HEMMER: What if the evidence comes back and the blood is positive for the two people who were murdered in 1986?

SCHECK: Well...

HEMMER: Does Darnell Williams go back on death row? SCHECK: Well, it will be reconsidered by the governor. And that's why I think the key point to emphasize now is that a lot has changed in this case. There's other new evidence. But the most important point that's changed -- and you find this in many death penalty cases across the country that involves what's known as the felony murder rule -- and that is that the more culpable person here has received a life sentence. So it doesn't make sense in the mind of the prosecutor who tried the case, the jurors that deliberated on it and one of the judges that affirmed the death penalty in this case for Mr. Williams, they're all saying that the governor should give him life without parole anyway.

HEMMER: We're out of time.

Yesterday you said you could do this in three days, the testing.

SCHECK: Well, now we've got 60. So we can do it more carefully.

HEMMER: Could it come back in a week, 10 days? When are we going to be talking again?

SCHECK: Oh, you know, it -- we have to look at the samples, we have to see what array of tests are done. If you do it in a careful fashion, you know, maybe two or three weeks.

HEMMER: Barry Scheck, thanks.

SCHECK: Thank you.

HEMMER: All right.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com







Aired July 29, 2003 - 07:36   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: All right, we want to get back to this Indiana story right now. The governor in that state has answered the plea of a death row inmate. Frank O'Bannon granted a 60 day stay for a prisoner who was scheduled to die on Friday, the 1st of August, so that blood evidence in the case can be DNA tested.
Jeff Flock back with us live in Indy for more on this story this morning -- Jeff, good morning there.

JEFF FLOCK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning to you, Bill.

Indeed, speaking of President Bush, he did it while governor of Texas. His brother Jeb Bush down in Florida has done it. But before yesterday, Indiana Governor Frank O'Bannon had not issued a death row stay of execution. But now he has and some people, at least, are happy about it.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you, Jesus.

FLOCK (voice-over): Darnell Williams' family celebrates his 60 day reprieve.

SHIRLEY GREER, WILLIAMS' MOTHER: I'm very happy. I'm very, very happy. I'm a happy mother that my son is going to get another, he's going to get a chance.

FLOCK: But it's only a chance to prove, as Williams told his parole board hearing, that blood found on his clothing didn't come from this Gary, Indiana couple he stands convicted of murdering in 1986.

JOHN GNAJEK, FORMER JUROR: I was one of the jurors who voted for death.

FLOCK: John Gnajek at the parole board. He tells them and us that without blood evidence, he would have given Williams life in prison, not death.

GNAJEK: The only physical evidence was the blood evidence on his shorts.

FLOCK (on camera): So if you hadn't had that evidence, you wouldn't have given him the death penalty?

GNAJEK: There's no way we could have given him the death penalty if he wasn't a triggerman. And that was the only evidence that actually put him in the room.

TOM VANES, FORMER PROSECUTOR: I was aggressive.

FLOCK (voice-over): Maybe too much so, admits prosecutor Tom Vanes, who now thinks that DNA testing could eliminate what was his best evidence.

VANES: I knew that the blood evidence we presented was critical to getting Mr. Williams the death sentence.

FLOCK: And may now be critical in getting him life, says Williams' lawyer.

(on camera): How is he?

JULIET YACKEL, WILLIAMS' ATTORNEY: He's fine. He's a religious man and he leaves it in god's hands.

FLOCK (voice-over): Once the DNA test comes back, it'll be in the Indiana governor's hands, who, in six years, has never granted a death row clemency. The family of the victims says Darnell Williams shouldn't be the first.

FELICIA MOORE, VICTIM'S RELATIVE: And they portrayed him as he was a saint or something. And I don't know, like maybe because it's been 17 years if they remember or not, but I want you guys to consider my aunt and uncle.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FLOCK: Bill, it is important to note that there is other evidence linking Darnell Williams to these crimes. So it is possible that the DNA tests could come back in his favor and the governor could still decide to let the execution go forward. That is possible. We'll continue to watch it.

HEMMER: One of the many questions.

Jeff, thanks.

Let's put them to Barry Scheck now, law professor, founder of The Innocence Project, back with us here on AMERICAN MORNING. We spoke yesterday before the decision came down.

Any surprise from the governor?

BARRY SCHECK, THE INNOCENCE PROJECT: Well, I'm not surprised that they granted DNA testing here. They had to. The Bush brothers, Governor Bush in Texas and Jeb Bush just this Thanksgiving -- I was involved in both cases -- they both did it at the last minute.

HEMMER: How much of -- and George Ryan, the governor in Illinois, when he was going out of office at the end of this, what, it was about seven months ago?

SCHECK: Yes. HEMMER: He put a freeze on executions. How much is that playing right now into these decisions we're seeing across the country?

SCHECK: Oh, it's playing enormously because what's happened is that people realize that many of these death sentences and even convictions just are not reliable. We have 132 post-conviction DNA exonerations. There are 108 people who have been sentenced to death in this country since the reinstitution of the death penalty whose sentence -- who have been exonerated with new evidence of innocence, not DNA. And DNA was only involved in 13 of those cases.

HEMMER: Let's talk about this case specifically in Indiana. First, is there enough blood on these shorts to conduct a fair test?

SCHECK: Well, we don't know. There was very, you know, when Mr. Williams was arrested originally, they looked at his shorts. They found no blood. They gave him back his shorts. Then three days later, they took him out of the jail cell and they found three little blood drops and they did some conventional serology on those. Now we can do DNA on it, you know, if they're still in a form where bacteria hasn't downgraded the sample.

So we don't know whether we'll get a result or not.

HEMMER: Three drops you mentioned. Enough?

SCHECK: Well, it should be ordinarily.

HEMMER: It should be.

SCHECK: It should be ordinarily. But it depends on how it was preserved.

HEMMER: The question we talked about yesterday, 17 years later, how reliable is this evidence?

SCHECK: Well, you know, it's, so many of the cases we've had samples that are 10, 15, 20, 30 years old. You can do a reliable test. But, you know, the real issue here is that Tom Vanes, the prosecutor in the case, not only did he say that there should be DNA testing, but he said yesterday in front of the clemency board regardless of the DNA tests, that Mr. Williams should not be executed because the co-defendant in the case was the one that was really the most culpable. He had blood all over him. He's the one that certainly did the shootings and he has received a life sentence.

So, you know, the judge that presided over the conviction and Mr. Vanes, the prosecutor, are saying look, there shouldn't be a death penalty in this case, no matter what.

HEMMER: What if the evidence comes back and the blood is positive for the two people who were murdered in 1986?

SCHECK: Well...

HEMMER: Does Darnell Williams go back on death row? SCHECK: Well, it will be reconsidered by the governor. And that's why I think the key point to emphasize now is that a lot has changed in this case. There's other new evidence. But the most important point that's changed -- and you find this in many death penalty cases across the country that involves what's known as the felony murder rule -- and that is that the more culpable person here has received a life sentence. So it doesn't make sense in the mind of the prosecutor who tried the case, the jurors that deliberated on it and one of the judges that affirmed the death penalty in this case for Mr. Williams, they're all saying that the governor should give him life without parole anyway.

HEMMER: We're out of time.

Yesterday you said you could do this in three days, the testing.

SCHECK: Well, now we've got 60. So we can do it more carefully.

HEMMER: Could it come back in a week, 10 days? When are we going to be talking again?

SCHECK: Oh, you know, it -- we have to look at the samples, we have to see what array of tests are done. If you do it in a careful fashion, you know, maybe two or three weeks.

HEMMER: Barry Scheck, thanks.

SCHECK: Thank you.

HEMMER: All right.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com