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CNN Live Today
Interview With Raymond Pollak
Aired July 31, 2003 - 11:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: Well it is a difficult decision figuring out who should get organ transplants when there are more patients than there are donors. Three Chicago-area hospitals are accused of trying to beat the system, diagnosing patients as sicker than they actually were. and they did it just to speed up the liver transplant.
A $3 million court action is pending against one of the hospitals, that's the University of Illinois Medical Center. Two others, the University of Chicago Hospitals and Northwestern Memorial Hospital, agree to settle without admitting to any wrongdoing.
The case has stemmed from a whistle-blower lawsuit by Dr. Raymond Pollak. Dr. Pollak is joining us this morning from our bureau in Chicago. Dr. Pollak, good morning. thanks for being with us.
DR. RAYMOND POLLAK, WHISTLE-BLOWER: Thank you for having me.
KAGAN: Take us back to 1999 when you decided to blow the whistle and how you say the system was working at that time.
POLLAK: Well for three years before that I had in my positions as member of the local board of directors in the organ bank and together with my position at the United Network for Organ Sharing, it had become clear that the system for allocating livers in Chicago was not working well.
It colloquially became known as, quote, "the Chicago way" which was to admit patients to the intensive care unit in the hospital without good reason in order to promote their candidacy for scarce available livers. There's a pressing public imperative to distribute those livers equitably so that all patients have an equal chance to get those livers.
When I began to protest what was going on, and my own institution wasn't willing to help me, together with a dedicated group of attorneys and together with the federal prosecutor's office as well as the Illinois state attorney general's office, we filed this whistle- blower lawsuit and in 1999 to try and effect some change in order to ensure that the public's wishes would be served...
(CROSSTALK)
KAGAN: Let me jump in here for a second, because if your own institution isn't going to back you up, you have to realize that there's going to be a certain amount of political and personal risk that you take by doing this. How did it get to the point where you decided that you had no choice, you had to speak up?
POLLAK: I think there's, as a physician and in following the Hippocratic oath, one has to do no harm. And that means not only to your own patient, but to other patients on the waiting list. When one depends on the public and their altruism to donate the organs, we have an obligation as physicians in the transplant community to make sure that those organs go to the most deserving patients.
(CROSSTALK)
KAGAN: Because the other part of this is not just who's getting the organs, but who's not getting the organs. And if it's happening, as you're saying, that you have to then assume that there are people who are very sick who did not get the livers that they needed in time.
POLLAK: That's correct. Other people who were waiting, perhaps who were more better placed and sicker, would have to wait longer and perhaps even get more sick and perhaps even die for not getting the liver that they most deservedly should have got in the first place.
KAGAN: Dr. Pollak, isn't this part of actually a bigger problem with the whole system of organ transplantation and donation in that there's pressure on these hospitals to do a certain number of transplants every year otherwise they won't be eligible for Medicare reimbursement and other money from the government?
POLLAK: That's correct. At the time to gain Medicare and Medicaid certification you have to do 12 transplants a year for the proceeding two with good survival outcomes.
But I'd like to emphasize that the system has now changed for the better. And using a new system called the MELD system, M-E-L-D, patients and the donor families can be reassured that in fact the trust has been put back into the system and that the system is now fair.
KAGAN: And as we said, two of the hospitals have settled without admitting any wrongdoing. But the third, the University of Illinois Hospital, put out this statement.
And in the interest of fairness, we would like to put that on the screen and say what they have to say about this case and that is that "our physicians acted at all times with the utmost concern for welfare of patients that were very ill with liver disease. We have cooperated over a number of years with the federal government in response to request for information about our liver transplant program. We are continuing discussions with the government about our program." And since the matter is in litigation, they cannot comment any further.
Any comments on their comments, Doctor?
POLLAK: I think that's an appropriate comment. I think it's appropriate for institutions to be concerned about the welfare of their patients.
But in a system where we depend on the altruism of the public where we have to share in a scarce resource, caring for your own patients doesn't go far enough. We also have to be concerned about those patients in other institutions who may be equally deserving but in fact ahead of patients in your own institutions who are also waiting for livers.
KAGAN: And before we let you go, we have to know a little bit more about your personal story. What happened to you after you filed this lawsuit and where are you today?
POLLAK: Actually what happened to me -- the lawsuit when it's filed under the Federal False Claims Act, which is the act that allows individual citizens to seek redress for these perceived wrongs, after that suit was filed it was kept under seal so, in fact it was secret. But prior to the filing of the suit, I had been demoted from my position at the University of Illinois for protesting the perceived fraud in admitting patients unnecessarily to the hospital and the intensive care unit.
KAGAN: And so have you moved on to another institution?
POLLAK: I'm actually still with my same institution but at a different location.
KAGAN: And given what you have been through personally, if somebody is in situation, whether it's in the medical field or another field, and they feel that they must become a whistle-blower, would you encourage them to do it or is it too personally painful?
POLLAK: I think people should follow their conscious and do what they feel is right. And sometimes I think one has to put one's personal concerns aside for the betterment of the community.
KAGAN: And so no regrets it sounds like to me.
POLLAK: No regrets.
KAGAN: Dr. Pollak, a fascinating story. Congratulations on speaking up. And we appreciate you making those changes or encouraging those changes and bringing your story to us today.
POLLAK: Thank you very much.
KAGAN: Thank you so much.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired July 31, 2003 - 11:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: Well it is a difficult decision figuring out who should get organ transplants when there are more patients than there are donors. Three Chicago-area hospitals are accused of trying to beat the system, diagnosing patients as sicker than they actually were. and they did it just to speed up the liver transplant.
A $3 million court action is pending against one of the hospitals, that's the University of Illinois Medical Center. Two others, the University of Chicago Hospitals and Northwestern Memorial Hospital, agree to settle without admitting to any wrongdoing.
The case has stemmed from a whistle-blower lawsuit by Dr. Raymond Pollak. Dr. Pollak is joining us this morning from our bureau in Chicago. Dr. Pollak, good morning. thanks for being with us.
DR. RAYMOND POLLAK, WHISTLE-BLOWER: Thank you for having me.
KAGAN: Take us back to 1999 when you decided to blow the whistle and how you say the system was working at that time.
POLLAK: Well for three years before that I had in my positions as member of the local board of directors in the organ bank and together with my position at the United Network for Organ Sharing, it had become clear that the system for allocating livers in Chicago was not working well.
It colloquially became known as, quote, "the Chicago way" which was to admit patients to the intensive care unit in the hospital without good reason in order to promote their candidacy for scarce available livers. There's a pressing public imperative to distribute those livers equitably so that all patients have an equal chance to get those livers.
When I began to protest what was going on, and my own institution wasn't willing to help me, together with a dedicated group of attorneys and together with the federal prosecutor's office as well as the Illinois state attorney general's office, we filed this whistle- blower lawsuit and in 1999 to try and effect some change in order to ensure that the public's wishes would be served...
(CROSSTALK)
KAGAN: Let me jump in here for a second, because if your own institution isn't going to back you up, you have to realize that there's going to be a certain amount of political and personal risk that you take by doing this. How did it get to the point where you decided that you had no choice, you had to speak up?
POLLAK: I think there's, as a physician and in following the Hippocratic oath, one has to do no harm. And that means not only to your own patient, but to other patients on the waiting list. When one depends on the public and their altruism to donate the organs, we have an obligation as physicians in the transplant community to make sure that those organs go to the most deserving patients.
(CROSSTALK)
KAGAN: Because the other part of this is not just who's getting the organs, but who's not getting the organs. And if it's happening, as you're saying, that you have to then assume that there are people who are very sick who did not get the livers that they needed in time.
POLLAK: That's correct. Other people who were waiting, perhaps who were more better placed and sicker, would have to wait longer and perhaps even get more sick and perhaps even die for not getting the liver that they most deservedly should have got in the first place.
KAGAN: Dr. Pollak, isn't this part of actually a bigger problem with the whole system of organ transplantation and donation in that there's pressure on these hospitals to do a certain number of transplants every year otherwise they won't be eligible for Medicare reimbursement and other money from the government?
POLLAK: That's correct. At the time to gain Medicare and Medicaid certification you have to do 12 transplants a year for the proceeding two with good survival outcomes.
But I'd like to emphasize that the system has now changed for the better. And using a new system called the MELD system, M-E-L-D, patients and the donor families can be reassured that in fact the trust has been put back into the system and that the system is now fair.
KAGAN: And as we said, two of the hospitals have settled without admitting any wrongdoing. But the third, the University of Illinois Hospital, put out this statement.
And in the interest of fairness, we would like to put that on the screen and say what they have to say about this case and that is that "our physicians acted at all times with the utmost concern for welfare of patients that were very ill with liver disease. We have cooperated over a number of years with the federal government in response to request for information about our liver transplant program. We are continuing discussions with the government about our program." And since the matter is in litigation, they cannot comment any further.
Any comments on their comments, Doctor?
POLLAK: I think that's an appropriate comment. I think it's appropriate for institutions to be concerned about the welfare of their patients.
But in a system where we depend on the altruism of the public where we have to share in a scarce resource, caring for your own patients doesn't go far enough. We also have to be concerned about those patients in other institutions who may be equally deserving but in fact ahead of patients in your own institutions who are also waiting for livers.
KAGAN: And before we let you go, we have to know a little bit more about your personal story. What happened to you after you filed this lawsuit and where are you today?
POLLAK: Actually what happened to me -- the lawsuit when it's filed under the Federal False Claims Act, which is the act that allows individual citizens to seek redress for these perceived wrongs, after that suit was filed it was kept under seal so, in fact it was secret. But prior to the filing of the suit, I had been demoted from my position at the University of Illinois for protesting the perceived fraud in admitting patients unnecessarily to the hospital and the intensive care unit.
KAGAN: And so have you moved on to another institution?
POLLAK: I'm actually still with my same institution but at a different location.
KAGAN: And given what you have been through personally, if somebody is in situation, whether it's in the medical field or another field, and they feel that they must become a whistle-blower, would you encourage them to do it or is it too personally painful?
POLLAK: I think people should follow their conscious and do what they feel is right. And sometimes I think one has to put one's personal concerns aside for the betterment of the community.
KAGAN: And so no regrets it sounds like to me.
POLLAK: No regrets.
KAGAN: Dr. Pollak, a fascinating story. Congratulations on speaking up. And we appreciate you making those changes or encouraging those changes and bringing your story to us today.
POLLAK: Thank you very much.
KAGAN: Thank you so much.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
