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American Morning
Missile Sting Nets Man Officials Say is Known Arms Dealer in Britain
Aired August 13, 2003 - 08:03 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Back now to that missile sting that netted a man officials say is a known arms dealer back in Britain. The suspect scheduled in court later this morning in Newark, New Jersey.
Deborah Feyerick is outside the federal court building and takes us to the case at this point.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It was in St. Petersburg and Moscow, U.S. law enforcement sources say, that the alleged arms dealer unknowingly met with Russian undercover agents. They told the alleged dealer they could get their hands on a surface to air missile. The suspected arms dealer, sources say, was interested in buying the shoulder fired weapon for two supposed terrorists.
But the terrorists were also undercover agents from the U.S. Sources say the missile was smuggled out of Russia and into the United States on board a ship, which ultimately arrived in Newark, New Jersey. All of this was done with the full knowledge and cooperation of U.S., Russian and British agencies.
A source says the missile, an SA-18, was shipped without explosives. It was delivered and is now in FBI custody. The alleged arms dealer is described by authorities as a British national of Indian descent. A source says he arrived in New Jersey over the weekend to close the deal and get his money. He was arrested Tuesday.
Authorities say two other men were also taken into custody. They are described as gem dealers who worked in this midtown Manhattan office building. FBI agents searched the import-export company, a law enforcement source saying the two are the alleged money men, laundering cash for the deal.
Sources say the alleged arms dealer works independently and though he has sold weapons to al Qaeda in the past, they don't believe the missile was part of an overall terrorist plot.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
FEYERICK: A government source identifies the alleged arms dealer as Hekmat Lekhani. He's expected to be here in federal court in about two hours. The charges he's facing, weapons smuggling and material support of terrorism. The other two men also expected to be in a federal court today -- Bill.
HEMMER: Deborah, one of the many outstanding questions on the story was who is going to buy this technology, this surface to air missile from this British national? Has anyone talked about potential for suspects in this country who were willing to do that?
FEYERICK: When you speak to law enforcement sources, they will tell you that there is a market for this. It's unclear just how extensive, if at all, there is, that it is here in the United States. Because this was part of an overall operation, it was very carefully plotted from beginning to end. The minute leas knew that this guy was bragging or saying that he could get a surface to air missile, they set up this operation very carefully. So this missile never left the sort of purview of government agencies. That means all undercover people knew where this missile was at every step of the way. It was supplied by undercover agents and when it arrived here in the United States it was then delivered, we are told, but it was delivered also within the context of this sting. It is in FBI custody now. It was never operative. The explosives were removed before it was ever shipped.
HEMMER: Deborah Feyerick in Newark, thanks.
We'll be watching that courthouse today -- now Daryn.
DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: Joining us now from Washington with more on the threat from surface to air missiles, James Carafano, a 25 year Army veteran and an arms proliferation expert at The Heritage Foundation. He just completed, by the way, an independent threat assessment of this very scenario.
Good morning.
Thanks for being with us.
JAMES CARAFANO, THE HERITAGE FOUNDATION: It's good to be with you.
KAGAN: Is this kind of arrest, and if not the arrest, this kind of attempt to get something like this into the U.S. inevitable considering how many missiles are out there floating around?
CARAFANO: Absolutely. And you can't really call it a wake up call, because this has been a threat that's been growing for many years. In 1997, the Gore Commission on Airport Security looked at this, said this is a serious threat. I think it was a year or so ago that we, there was a sting in Afghanistan where some guys tried to trade missiles for drugs. We had the incident in Mombassa, Kenya.
I mean it's a cliche, but this really is just a matter of time before somebody tries this.
KAGAN: Well, and the numbers are absolutely staggering, 700,000 to 750,000 missiles like this out there. But really when you look at the black market, you're talking about 800 to 1,000, a fraction of the total number, and yet still plenty to do a lot of damage. CARAFANO: Well, I think the black market actually may be a lot larger, I mean especially if the premium on these things goes up. I mean these things are proliferated fairly widely. SA, the SA-18 is a more modern version of the Soviet Russian missile, so it's not as widely out there as some. But like the SA-7, which is the older version, I mean the Soviets handed those out like candy. They were all over the world.
KAGAN: And I think what raised my eyebrows the most when I was looking over this last night was the odds of hitting a plane if you can get into position. They are incredible.
CARAFANO: Well, actually, I don't think they're that good. I mean even with an SA-18, I mean you've got about a 50-50 shot at hitting a plane. And if you're an untrained firer, I mean, the odds of missing the plane are actually pretty good. Now, when you -- as a matter of fact, I remember when I was a young lieutenant, you know, I had a trainer thing and they took me out and with a Stinger thing, I couldn't hit anything.
But now if you had several of these, you know, you did volley fire, and you had, and you did your tactics right and you did your research and your scouting and stuff, you could probably have a pretty significant probability that you'd be able to bring a plane down.
KAGAN: Also concerning is what U.S. airlines can do to fight back. We talked earlier this morning about what an El Al crew did when it was targeted in Africa, flying with some evasive measures. But as I understand it, crews here in the U.S. are not trained to fly like that.
CARAFANO: Yes, and that's probably -- well, and you have to think, you know, the real, the problem is in takeoff and landing, because these things have a maximum altitude. They're effective about 3,500 meters. So the really question is is the first five to 10 minutes of flight before planes reach cruising altitude. And that's the issue. And that happens in a congested area in an airport. Think about Newark or LaGuardia or Kennedy, trying to -- having planes trying to dodge missiles, what it would be like.
But that's kind of 101 is we need to have pilots around the country, we need everybody trained in the quick reaction drills and what to do if an incident like this happens so we don't have a disaster in the sky.
KAGAN: Well, and what about the equipment that you can put on U.S. airliners, that, you know, the airlines are going to talk about it being too expensive?
CARAFANO: Yes, you know, it will be too expensive until the first plane is shot down. You know, and people throw out figures, $1 million to $3 million per plane, and I really believe if we went out to the private sector and we were serious about this in a serious way and we did it intelligently, you know, I think that the technological solutions are actually, they're there. I think we could probably find ways to bring the costs down significantly. KAGAN: And the chances of that happening before an attack takes place?
CARAFANO: Boy, that's a real wild card. It, like I said, it's not as easy to do one of these attacks as you might think. It does take some planning and skill. There are certainly people out there capable of doing this. It is a race against time.
KAGAN: James Carafano in Washington, thank you.
CARAFANO: Thank you.
KAGAN: Appreciate your insight.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
in Britain>
Aired August 13, 2003 - 08:03 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Back now to that missile sting that netted a man officials say is a known arms dealer back in Britain. The suspect scheduled in court later this morning in Newark, New Jersey.
Deborah Feyerick is outside the federal court building and takes us to the case at this point.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It was in St. Petersburg and Moscow, U.S. law enforcement sources say, that the alleged arms dealer unknowingly met with Russian undercover agents. They told the alleged dealer they could get their hands on a surface to air missile. The suspected arms dealer, sources say, was interested in buying the shoulder fired weapon for two supposed terrorists.
But the terrorists were also undercover agents from the U.S. Sources say the missile was smuggled out of Russia and into the United States on board a ship, which ultimately arrived in Newark, New Jersey. All of this was done with the full knowledge and cooperation of U.S., Russian and British agencies.
A source says the missile, an SA-18, was shipped without explosives. It was delivered and is now in FBI custody. The alleged arms dealer is described by authorities as a British national of Indian descent. A source says he arrived in New Jersey over the weekend to close the deal and get his money. He was arrested Tuesday.
Authorities say two other men were also taken into custody. They are described as gem dealers who worked in this midtown Manhattan office building. FBI agents searched the import-export company, a law enforcement source saying the two are the alleged money men, laundering cash for the deal.
Sources say the alleged arms dealer works independently and though he has sold weapons to al Qaeda in the past, they don't believe the missile was part of an overall terrorist plot.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
FEYERICK: A government source identifies the alleged arms dealer as Hekmat Lekhani. He's expected to be here in federal court in about two hours. The charges he's facing, weapons smuggling and material support of terrorism. The other two men also expected to be in a federal court today -- Bill.
HEMMER: Deborah, one of the many outstanding questions on the story was who is going to buy this technology, this surface to air missile from this British national? Has anyone talked about potential for suspects in this country who were willing to do that?
FEYERICK: When you speak to law enforcement sources, they will tell you that there is a market for this. It's unclear just how extensive, if at all, there is, that it is here in the United States. Because this was part of an overall operation, it was very carefully plotted from beginning to end. The minute leas knew that this guy was bragging or saying that he could get a surface to air missile, they set up this operation very carefully. So this missile never left the sort of purview of government agencies. That means all undercover people knew where this missile was at every step of the way. It was supplied by undercover agents and when it arrived here in the United States it was then delivered, we are told, but it was delivered also within the context of this sting. It is in FBI custody now. It was never operative. The explosives were removed before it was ever shipped.
HEMMER: Deborah Feyerick in Newark, thanks.
We'll be watching that courthouse today -- now Daryn.
DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: Joining us now from Washington with more on the threat from surface to air missiles, James Carafano, a 25 year Army veteran and an arms proliferation expert at The Heritage Foundation. He just completed, by the way, an independent threat assessment of this very scenario.
Good morning.
Thanks for being with us.
JAMES CARAFANO, THE HERITAGE FOUNDATION: It's good to be with you.
KAGAN: Is this kind of arrest, and if not the arrest, this kind of attempt to get something like this into the U.S. inevitable considering how many missiles are out there floating around?
CARAFANO: Absolutely. And you can't really call it a wake up call, because this has been a threat that's been growing for many years. In 1997, the Gore Commission on Airport Security looked at this, said this is a serious threat. I think it was a year or so ago that we, there was a sting in Afghanistan where some guys tried to trade missiles for drugs. We had the incident in Mombassa, Kenya.
I mean it's a cliche, but this really is just a matter of time before somebody tries this.
KAGAN: Well, and the numbers are absolutely staggering, 700,000 to 750,000 missiles like this out there. But really when you look at the black market, you're talking about 800 to 1,000, a fraction of the total number, and yet still plenty to do a lot of damage. CARAFANO: Well, I think the black market actually may be a lot larger, I mean especially if the premium on these things goes up. I mean these things are proliferated fairly widely. SA, the SA-18 is a more modern version of the Soviet Russian missile, so it's not as widely out there as some. But like the SA-7, which is the older version, I mean the Soviets handed those out like candy. They were all over the world.
KAGAN: And I think what raised my eyebrows the most when I was looking over this last night was the odds of hitting a plane if you can get into position. They are incredible.
CARAFANO: Well, actually, I don't think they're that good. I mean even with an SA-18, I mean you've got about a 50-50 shot at hitting a plane. And if you're an untrained firer, I mean, the odds of missing the plane are actually pretty good. Now, when you -- as a matter of fact, I remember when I was a young lieutenant, you know, I had a trainer thing and they took me out and with a Stinger thing, I couldn't hit anything.
But now if you had several of these, you know, you did volley fire, and you had, and you did your tactics right and you did your research and your scouting and stuff, you could probably have a pretty significant probability that you'd be able to bring a plane down.
KAGAN: Also concerning is what U.S. airlines can do to fight back. We talked earlier this morning about what an El Al crew did when it was targeted in Africa, flying with some evasive measures. But as I understand it, crews here in the U.S. are not trained to fly like that.
CARAFANO: Yes, and that's probably -- well, and you have to think, you know, the real, the problem is in takeoff and landing, because these things have a maximum altitude. They're effective about 3,500 meters. So the really question is is the first five to 10 minutes of flight before planes reach cruising altitude. And that's the issue. And that happens in a congested area in an airport. Think about Newark or LaGuardia or Kennedy, trying to -- having planes trying to dodge missiles, what it would be like.
But that's kind of 101 is we need to have pilots around the country, we need everybody trained in the quick reaction drills and what to do if an incident like this happens so we don't have a disaster in the sky.
KAGAN: Well, and what about the equipment that you can put on U.S. airliners, that, you know, the airlines are going to talk about it being too expensive?
CARAFANO: Yes, you know, it will be too expensive until the first plane is shot down. You know, and people throw out figures, $1 million to $3 million per plane, and I really believe if we went out to the private sector and we were serious about this in a serious way and we did it intelligently, you know, I think that the technological solutions are actually, they're there. I think we could probably find ways to bring the costs down significantly. KAGAN: And the chances of that happening before an attack takes place?
CARAFANO: Boy, that's a real wild card. It, like I said, it's not as easy to do one of these attacks as you might think. It does take some planning and skill. There are certainly people out there capable of doing this. It is a race against time.
KAGAN: James Carafano in Washington, thank you.
CARAFANO: Thank you.
KAGAN: Appreciate your insight.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
in Britain>
